Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Warin]

On 18-Jan-17 03:21 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marc Zoutendijk
 wrote:

+1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is
using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of
public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out
when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…

I thought several PT companies are experimenting with OSM. See e.g.
[1] which is a presentation by the French Transilien company on indoor
mapping of their railway stations at the last State of the Map. I
believe their is also a German company doing similar things.

There are some multi modal route planner (sorry no links) that combine
bus/bike/train routes. Something no PT provider can offer as they only
have their own data. This is also mentioned in the video [1].


Never say never?

A PT provider with multi modal planer - bus, train, light rail  and ferry for 
Sydney, Australia

http://www.transportnsw.info/

{example test; from Terry Hills Pubilc School Myoora Rd, Terrey Hills to City 
Rd near Butlin Av, Camperdown}

Notes

includes at least some 'private' bus companies (I think most), so not all 
operated by the major PT provider (the government in this case).
these mostly run on an 'opal' card.
the present data in OSM is poor for Sydney bus routes

There is an opal card retailer finder on the web site .. however
I prefer an off line map (like OSM) to keep my mobile data use for things like 
weather and fire - where real time is important.

Personally I like to use both the PT providers website and a map,
sometimes where I want to go is an area, using a public transport map I can 
better asses where to go,
I then use PT provider web planer, changing the precise location to find a good 
multi mode route.
the PT web site is set up for people who want to get from A to B at a 
particular time,
I may prefer a scenic route using a ferry, a train trip across the bridge ... a 
map helps.


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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marc Zoutendijk
 wrote:
> +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is
> using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of
> public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out
> when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…

Not so long ago there was a story about a PT map for a town in a
developing country made with OSM as there is no official data
available. Some countries are spoiled by the availability of official
data.

However, the official data can be wrong. I have place several bus
stops in Belgian and sometimes you see that the official data is wrong
by several hundred meters.

m

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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marc Zoutendijk
 wrote:
> +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is
> using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of
> public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out
> when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…

I thought several PT companies are experimenting with OSM. See e.g.
[1] which is a presentation by the French Transilien company on indoor
mapping of their railway stations at the last State of the Map. I
believe their is also a German company doing similar things.

There are some multi modal route planner (sorry no links) that combine
bus/bike/train routes. Something no PT provider can offer as they only
have their own data. This is also mentioned in the video [1].

m


[1] http://2016.stateofthemap.org/2016/osm-goes-indoors-2

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Re: [Tagging] Representing "altimetric quotas" in OSM

[Greg Troxel]

"Nelson A. de Oliveira"  writes:

> I really don't know if the proper term is "altimetric quota" in
> English, sorry.
>
> What we have are some places where the elevation at some points were
> measured. It's similar to man_made=survey_point but without any
> physical objects or marks there; somebody just measured the elevation
> at that point and charted it.

In English and US surveying practice, we have two things:

  "benchmark": This is a physical monument (brass disk usually, for <
  100 year old marks).  It has an established orthometric height from
  leveling.  The horizontal coordinates are not necessarily known
  precisely, just as the elevation of horizontal controls is not
  necessarily known precisely.  These are the vertical control network
  making up our NGVD29 and NAVD88 datums.  Definitely a survey_point.

  "spot elevation":  This is a notation on a topographic map giving the
  elevation at some point.  There is not necessarily a mark on the
  ground.   These probably do not belong in OSM, but if they are
  recorded in survey databases, it seems reasonable.

Now, control points are likely to be 3D, and use GPS, and have
ellipsoidal coordinates and an elevation derived from ellipsoidal height
and a geoid model.


For measured spot elevations that have some sense of officialness, I
would be tempted to call them man_made=survey_point, perhaps with
survey_poinrt=none :-)



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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 4:02 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam :
>
>> However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public
>> transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in
>> OSM.
>
>
>
> +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending,
> and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards
> towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it
> might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
>

Counterargument: The unbanked population is rapidly increasing, leaving
electronic payment options unavailable.  Also, tourists and infrequent/new
riders that may not have a compatible electronic option available.  Knowing
where to obtain a ticket/card/whatever with hard currency is immensely
useful in these situations.
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Re: [Tagging] Representing "altimetric quotas" in OSM

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Nelson A. de Oliveira 
wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 3:23 PM, Mike Thompson 
> wrote:
> > What about just a "ele" tag?
>
> "ele" without any other attribute is valid?
>
You can add any tag, or combination of tags, you wish into OSM. I don't
think there is any "valid" or "invalid" tags per say, only tags that are
generally accepted by the community.  Perhaps the community will be opposed
to having a stand alone "ele" tag for the situation you outlined, but this
forum exists to discuss such things. Assuming these features belong in OSM
(a separate discussion), a stand alone "ele" tag would appear to be a
straight forward way of tagging.
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Re: [Tagging] Representing "altimetric quotas" in OSM

[Chris Hill]

A point that has a height recorded but not much else is sometimes known 
as a spot height. Not sure there are any tagged as such, but maybe 
place=spot_height or natural=spot_height ...


cheers, Chris (chillly)

On 17/01/2017 17:13, Nelson A. de Oliveira wrote:

I really don't know if the proper term is "altimetric quota" in English, sorry.

What we have are some places where the elevation at some points were
measured. It's similar to man_made=survey_point but without any
physical objects or marks there; somebody just measured the elevation
at that point and charted it.

For example, the orange X with numbers at their sides here
https://i.imgur.com/keRUoI3.png are representing the charted
elevations.

Due to a misunderstanding and/or lack of a better tag, they were
inserted in OSM as peaks, like in
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/-20.1043/-46.2971 and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-20.1032/-46.2518

Some coincide with local peaks, while some not; of course we don't
have so many peaks there.

So what we have is:
1) they are not peaks
2) some users are saying that it's polluting the map (they have a reason)
3) I don't think we should simply remove all the peaks (since the user
who mapped them had a lot of work for this)
4) we lack (or we don't know) a good tag to represent this

Is there any tag that we could use to better represent such data, please?

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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[ael]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:51:10AM +0100, Marc Zoutendijk wrote:
> 
> > +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending, 
> > and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards 
> > towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it 
> > might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
> 
> 
> +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is 
> using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of 
> public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out 
> when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…


I have used /www.traveline.info/ which uses OSM although also additional
data bases, I understand. A member of their team often posts here, I
think.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Representing "altimetric quotas" in OSM

[Nelson A. de Oliveira]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 3:23 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:
> What about just a "ele" tag?

"ele" without any other attribute is valid?

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Re: [Tagging] Representing "altimetric quotas" in OSM

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Nelson A. de Oliveira 
wrote:

> I really don't know if the proper term is "altimetric quota" in English,
> sorry.
>
> What we have are some places where the elevation at some points were
> measured. It's similar to man_made=survey_point but without any
> physical objects or marks there; somebody just measured the elevation
> at that point and charted it.
>
>
>
> Is there any tag that we could use to better represent such data, please?
>
What about just a "ele" tag?
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[Tagging] Representing "altimetric quotas" in OSM

[Nelson A. de Oliveira]

I really don't know if the proper term is "altimetric quota" in English, sorry.

What we have are some places where the elevation at some points were
measured. It's similar to man_made=survey_point but without any
physical objects or marks there; somebody just measured the elevation
at that point and charted it.

For example, the orange X with numbers at their sides here
https://i.imgur.com/keRUoI3.png are representing the charted
elevations.

Due to a misunderstanding and/or lack of a better tag, they were
inserted in OSM as peaks, like in
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/-20.1043/-46.2971 and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-20.1032/-46.2518

Some coincide with local peaks, while some not; of course we don't
have so many peaks there.

So what we have is:
1) they are not peaks
2) some users are saying that it's polluting the map (they have a reason)
3) I don't think we should simply remove all the peaks (since the user
who mapped them had a lot of work for this)
4) we lack (or we don't know) a good tag to represent this

Is there any tag that we could use to better represent such data, please?

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Re: [Tagging] zero waste

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17 Jan 2017, at 13:50, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
> certification:zero-waste.org=yes


+1

cheers,
Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging speed camera *zones*

[Rory McCann]

On 17/01/17 13:59, Michael Reichert wrote:
> If there are signs which mark the beginning of such a section but no
> signs which mark their end, you could map the signs as a node on the
> way with direction=forward/backward. Both in OSM and in reality data
> users have to guess how long the section will be. OSM should stay to
> its on-the-ground rule.

There is no specific sign to mark the end. However the "start sign" for
the other side of the road tells you where it ends. You can entirely
figure out the zone by going there in person.

> If there are both start and end signs, I would simply split the road
> at the beginning and end of that section and add a special tag to the way.

Yes, but what should that tag be! 😄



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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2017-01-17 at 13:54 +0100, Éric Gillet wrote:
> 2017-01-17 11:51 GMT+01:00 Marc Zoutendijk :
> > 
> > > Op 17 jan. 2017, om 11:02 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer 
> > > @gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam :
> > > > However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for
> > > > public transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes
> > > > overmicromapped in OSM.
> > > 
> > > +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket
> > > vending, and there's generally a move away from any kind of
> > > physical ticket or cards towards electronic solutions in
> > > combination with smartphones etc., so it might not even be worth
> > > the hazzle ;-)
> > 
> > +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single
> > person who is using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m
> > a very heavy user of public transport and I always use the website
> > from the operator to find out when/where/how my bus/train is going.
> > I would not even think of OSM
> > 
> Just right this morning I tried to find where PT stops are localized
> when making a route, and this is not possible with the transport
> company website (there is only a schematic map), so I had to use OSM.
> 
> However you're right, OSM stand little chance if used by itself for
> PT routing and other needs, but can be a big help when associated
> with other data sources (like what the folks at CityMapper do).
OSM is certainly used, here in the UK traveline use OSM on their maps
and their employees do edit OSM to improve routing.
Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging speed camera *zones*

[Michael Reichert]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi Rory,

Am 2017-01-17 um 13:39 schrieb Rory McCann:
> On 16/01/17 17:56, Michael Reichert wrote:
>> Are there signs along the road which inform the car drivers that
>> there might be a mobile speed camera van?
> 
> Yes there are.

If there are signs which mark the beginning of such a section but no
signs which mark their end, you could map the signs as a node on the
way with direction=forward/backward. Both in OSM and in reality data
users have to guess how long the section will be. OSM should stay to
its on-the-ground rule.

If there are both start and end signs, I would simply split the road
at the beginning and end of that section and add a special tag to the wa
y.

Best regards

Michael

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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Éric Gillet]

2017-01-17 11:51 GMT+01:00 Marc Zoutendijk :

>
> Op 17 jan. 2017, om 11:02 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
>
>
> 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam :
>
>> However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public
>> transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in
>> OSM.
>
>
>
> +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending,
> and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards
> towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it
> might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
>
>
>
> +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who
> is using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user
> of public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find
> out when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM
>

Just right this morning I tried to find where PT stops are localized when
making a route, and this is not possible with the transport company website

(there
is only a schematic map), so I had to use OSM.

However you're right, OSM stand little chance if used by itself for PT
routing and other needs, but can be a big help when associated with other
data sources (like what the folks at CityMapper do).
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Re: [Tagging] zero waste

[Greg Troxel]

joost schouppe  writes:

> Hi,
>
> We had an OSM meetup at a bar yesterday, and while we were able to add
> several tags [1], we didn't find any documentation on how to tag their
> "zero waste" policy. I think it's self evident what that means.

Except that when you look into it, at least the flavor that I am seeing
in the Northeast US, it turns out that zero waste means <=10% waste, all
relative to the normal solid-waste trash/recycling situation.  Sewage is
considered entirely different, as are things that are carved out of
solid waste (some batteries, electronics, things with mercury, propane
cylinders, paint, chemicals, etc.).

Plus it doesn't address people who have things to dispose of who find
that they can't, and they just take them someplace else.  Which isn't
zero waste - it is just using extra energy to move waste around :-)

Given all of this, 15% waste might be a more accurate description :-)
(Still, these programs are likely to be an improvement - I'm just
pointing out that the marketing communications are not honest.)

So I think the situation is not self evident at all.

Because of this, where words do not mean what they say, and really we
are dealing with potentially multiple branding organizations, I think
that any tagging should probably be something like

certification:zero-waste.org=yes

for something that is like a URL that refers to a particular Orwellian
organization that defines zero not to be zero in a particular way.
Otherwise we are condoning the adoption of normal words as meaning
something other than what they say by a particular group, and blessing
that group as official.  NPOV isn't really an OSM rule, but I think it's
implicit in describing the world as it is, and this is a dangerous
corner.



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging speed camera *zones*

[Rory McCann]

On 16/01/17 21:04, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I have a different question: can you be sure that the other roads
> don't have speed cameras?

Other roads can have speed camera vans (from the police force, rather
than the outsourced private company), however they have less than the
private company.

These zones are on areas of high accidents, so there is more likely to
be a speed camera van on those roads.



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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue Jan 17 10:51:10 2017 GMT, Marc Zoutendijk wrote:
> 
> > Op 17 jan. 2017, om 11:02 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer 
> >  het volgende geschreven:
> > 
> > 
> > 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam  > >:
> > However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public transport. 
> > It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in OSM.
> > 
> > 
> > +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending, 
> > and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards 
> > towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it 
> > might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
> 
> 
> +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is 
> using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of 
> public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out 
> when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…
> 
Not, true, the public transport layer in OSM is really useful to give an idea 
of where you can go and who the operator is. Traveline or opertors start with 
the assumption that you know where you want to go.

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue Jan 17 10:02:14 2017 GMT, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam :
> 
> > However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public
> > transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in
> > OSM.
> 
> 
> 
> +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending,
> and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards
> towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it
> might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
>
Very true, in London for example tourists  and occasional users no longer need 
oyster cards and simply use their contactless debit/credit card.

Phil (trigpoint)
 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging speed camera *zones*

[Rory McCann]

On 16/01/17 17:56, Michael Reichert wrote:
> Are there signs along the road which inform the car drivers that there
> might be a mobile speed camera van?

Yes there are.

> As the data is provided as open data by a third-party source, app
> developers can merge OSM and speed camera zone data on their own.

Yes one /could/. And one could add that data to OSM.



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Re: [Tagging] zero waste

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17 Jan 2017, at 12:10, joost schouppe  wrote:
> 
> We had an OSM meetup at a bar yesterday, and while we were able to add 
> several tags [1], we didn't find any documentation on how to tag their "zero 
> waste" policy. I think it's self evident what that means


actually when thinking about the details it is not self evident. Is it about 
solid waste or does it include liquid waste? is it frontend only or does it 
include the backend? True zero waste is hard to imagine, especially if you look 
at the whole chain.

cheers,
Martin 
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[Tagging] zero waste

[joost schouppe]

Hi,

We had an OSM meetup at a bar yesterday, and while we were able to add
several tags [1], we didn't find any documentation on how to tag their
"zero waste" policy. I think it's self evident what that means.

I'm thinking we could create a tag like zero_waste=yes . It also seems like
there are some certification organisations around [2], so maybe we need
zero_waste=official or zero_waste=certified or something like that? And
also something like zero_waste:certification or zero_waste:ref .

1: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4284192891
2: https://uszwbc.org/certification/facilities/certification-program/

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Marc Zoutendijk]

> Op 17 jan. 2017, om 11:02 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer  
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
> 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam  >:
> However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public transport. 
> It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in OSM.
> 
> 
> +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending, 
> and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards 
> towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it 
> might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)


+1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is 
using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of 
public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out 
when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…

Marc.




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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam :

> However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public
> transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in
> OSM.



+1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending,
and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards
towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it
might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
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