Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

2017-02-17 Thread John Willis 

> On Feb 18, 2017, at 11:25 AM, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
> 
> In any case,  since I have laundry equipment at home, what I'm usually 
> searching for is "laundromat with a large-capacity front-loading machine" - 
> since that's what I'll need for a sleeping bag or a down-filled duvet.

So would laundromat:side_loading:60lb=1 be good enough? 

I am not sure that I have ever washed a sleeping bag. I have owned a few, and I 
thnk my father had them dry-cleaned a long time ago. I'll have to remember 
that about the washer. 

People looking for machines for various reasons - maybe having "oversize" for 
part of the name to denote it's status as a very large washer/drier is good for 
understanding it. 

Laundromat:oversize_frontload_washer:60lb=1 
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

2017-02-17 Thread Kevin Kenny 
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 12:53 AM, John Willis  wrote:

> > On Feb 17, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> >
> > I guess the preferred unit will depend on the country where you are
> mapping.
>
> I would prefer drum volume (as it is actually measureable), but the units
> that are mapped most often will probably KG/LB/loads


Drum volumes are very different between front-loaders and top-loaders that
will wash the same loads.

In any case,  since I have laundry equipment at home, what I'm usually
searching for is "laundromat with a large-capacity front-loading machine" -
since that's what I'll need for a sleeping bag or a down-filled duvet. The
idea that the "large capacity" machine may be rated for a nominal "12 kg"
is ridiculous, since my summer sleeping bags weighs less than a kg dry, and
the winter one about 1.5 kg, but the volumes of a top-loading "standard
capacity" (6 kg?) machine and a front-loading "large capacity" machine
don't compare directly either. I'm not sure, given our data model, how I'd
state such a query. (Today, I ask Google. :P)

By the way, it must be a front-loader. Never, ever wash a lightweight down
sleeping bag in a top-loader - that's just begging to tear the baffles.
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Re: [Tagging] access: motorcar and goods, how to read the hierarchy

2017-02-17 Thread Warin 

On 18-Feb-17 12:01 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2017-02-17 12:26 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole >:


Mistake #1: assuming that there is a vehicle class hierarchy (of
any kind).



well, that's what the wiki has in the sentence above the hierarchical 
scheme (indentation): "This hierarchy is different in each country."
It might be different, but a hierarchy "of any kind" is likely to 
exist in most countries.


Typically law-makers see no reason to conform to computer science
niceties when drafting regulations (rightly so) and will simply
add or deduct vehicle properties in ways that make sense for the
regulation in question (well most of the time :-)).



when it comes to signs with restrictions, drivers can benefit a lot 
from a logical hierarchy, because it makes the signs quickly readable.
Otherwise you end up with signs like this: 
http://www.laleggepertutti.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/cartelli-stradali.png


The OSM hierarchical approach makes sense from a practical mapping
pov, but will have issues accurately modelling such edge cases and
I would suggest just living with that.


I still believe we should know what the key "motorcar" is meant to 
describe (it could also be a country specific definition, must not be 
valid globally). There's no definition in the wiki, it only states 
"automobile/cars" and a link to wikipedia which is more confusing than 
helping.


What does it mean that the "motorhome" is indented in the wiki table 
with respect to motorcar, while "goods" is not?

Do you then need a definition for trailer, hgv, etc? Where does it stop?

Dictionary motor car: a vehicle, especially one for passengers, carrying 
its own power generating and propelling mechanism for travel on ordinary 
roads


How do I know whether a restriction or allowance for motorcars is 
valid for hgv as well? Or shall I add 33 access-tags on every road?
E.g. typically an isolated motorcar=no implicitly means also hgv=no, 
goods=no, motorhome=no, agricultural=no, tourist_bus=no, bus=no, ...
while a motorcar=yes does likely not imply anything for hgv or 
tourist_bus, but eventually it does for motorhome and goods.
motor_vehicle=no  and than add any that are allowed .. e.g. goods=yes  
and there must be a method of adding time restrictions to that too . eg 
goods only between 19:00-22:00



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Re: [Tagging] knotted willows

2017-02-17 Thread joost schouppe 
Considering that there are several management styles for individual trees,
we could have something like

tree:managament=pollard

Other values might be none (allowed to grow free), copicce (pruned almost
to the ground), espalier (pruned into a flat vertical surface), etc.

tree:management:operator=* could then be used to indicate who is keeping
the tree pruned.

Maybe tree:pruning_style would be more logical?

2017-02-11 13:34 GMT+01:00 Wolfgang Zenker :

> Hi,
>
> * joost schouppe  [170211 09:43]:
> > One of the defining small landscape elements in Flanders (and probably
> many
> > rural areas in Europe) is the "knotted willow". I'm not sure if this is
> the
> > right term in English, in Dutch "knotwilg" really is a thing.
>
> > How would you tag such a thing? (I could not find any previous
> discussions
> > anywhere)
>
> > natural=tree
> > genus=Salix
> > +
> > management_style=knotted
>
> > Or something like that?
>
> > Apparently there's two words in Dutch:
> > - knotwilg: knotted at about 2 meters high
> > - grienden: knotted at a hight of maximum 50 cm
>
> apparently english has words for these managements styles:
> - "knotwilg" would be called "Pollarding"
> - "grienden" would be called "Coppicing"
>
> Wikipedia has pages on both.
>
> Wolfgang
>
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-- 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

2017-02-17 Thread John Willis 


> On Feb 17, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Humm maybe not..
> There is, or at least was, a 'Eurorail pass' for foreigners to enjoy access 
> to trips over a set period of time but open as to where they go.
> Arr there is a similar BritRail Pass too..

Same in Japan - JR pass for foreign visitors. 1 week unlimited travel. 

But this is not sold at a machine - you have to purchase through the embassy 
before your visit, as it is a huge discount (even at 800USD). I imagine these 
tourist passes are famous, but not the main use of the plans. Millions of 
people every day commute on prepaid time based cards and printed slips we are 
calling plans. 

Some places call passes "tickets" (like BART, with no station-to-station 
tickets (afaik), some places have tickets, prepaid passes, and prepaid "plan" 
tickets (Tokyo), So keeping the time-based tickets (even these tourist tickets) 
separate from passes or tickets might be a good idea. 

I am interested in add-fare/ fare adjustment machines, as well as pass refill 
machines you find at most major stations- I'll have to read the wiki.  This 
"plans" amenity is one of the other things to map as well. 

Javbw 



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Re: [Tagging] access: motorcar and goods, how to read the hierarchy

2017-02-17 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2017-02-17 12:26 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole :

> Mistake #1: assuming that there is a vehicle class hierarchy (of any kind).
>


well, that's what the wiki has in the sentence above the hierarchical
scheme (indentation): "This hierarchy is different in each country."
It might be different, but a hierarchy "of any kind" is likely to exist in
most countries.



> Typically law-makers see no reason to conform to computer science niceties
> when drafting regulations (rightly so) and will simply add or deduct
> vehicle properties in ways that make sense for the regulation in question
> (well most of the time :-)).
>


when it comes to signs with restrictions, drivers can benefit a lot from a
logical hierarchy, because it makes the signs quickly readable.
Otherwise you end up with signs like this:
http://www.laleggepertutti.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/cartelli-stradali.png


> The OSM hierarchical approach makes sense from a practical mapping pov,
> but will have issues accurately modelling such edge cases and I would
> suggest just living with that.
>
>
I still believe we should know what the key "motorcar" is meant to describe
(it could also be a country specific definition, must not be valid
globally). There's no definition in the wiki, it only states
"automobile/cars" and a link to wikipedia which is more confusing than
helping.

What does it mean that the "motorhome" is indented in the wiki table with
respect to motorcar, while "goods" is not?

How do I know whether a restriction or allowance for motorcars is valid for
hgv as well? Or shall I add 33 access-tags on every road?
E.g. typically an isolated motorcar=no implicitly means also hgv=no,
goods=no, motorhome=no, agricultural=no, tourist_bus=no, bus=no, ...
while a motorcar=yes does likely not imply anything for hgv or tourist_bus,
but eventually it does for motorhome and goods.

Cheers,
Martin


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorcar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car
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Re: [Tagging] access: motorcar and goods, how to read the hierarchy

2017-02-17 Thread Simon Poole 
Mistake #1: assuming that there is a vehicle class hierarchy (of any kind).

Typically law-makers see no reason to conform to computer science
niceties when drafting regulations (rightly so) and will simply add or
deduct vehicle properties in ways that make sense for the regulation in
question (well most of the time :-)).

The OSM hierarchical approach makes sense from a practical mapping pov,
but will have issues accurately modelling such edge cases and I would
suggest just living with that.

Simon

PS: as I pointed out years back, vehicle class hierarchies also tend to
change between moving and resting traffic.

 


Am 17.02.2017 um 11:57 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> Looking at the current state of access tag documentation:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access
>
> isn't "goods" a subclass of motorcar, rather than a parallel class of
> it's own?
>
> I came across this, because the Italian driving code has besides
> others these 2 classes (interestingly they also have a distinct class
> for animal drawn sleighs):
>
> - autoveicolo: super class which requires:
>   - at least 4 wheels, motorbikes excluded
>   - motor
>   and has subclasses from a) to n)
>   basically it is a subclass of "motor_vehicle", including cars,
> busses, tractors,  and hgv, but excluding quads, trikes, motorbikes,
> light motorbikes, cars with 3 wheels (e.g. Piaggio ape), some tractors,
>
> - autovettura: vehicles for the transport of persons, max 9 seats, but
> excluding some other classes (like goods).
>
> Question is: what is motorcar meant to mean in OSM?
>
> Isn't there a general problem with the hierarchy? Imagine finding a
> sign forbidding motorcars to pass. Isn't this including hgv as well?
> (In Germany at least it does), but in our hierarchy, motorcar and hgv
> are side a side.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> for reference:
> https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/D.Lgs._30_aprile_1992,_n._285_-_Nuovo_codice_della_strada/Titolo_III
>
> 54a: "autovetture: veicoli destinati al trasporto di persone, aventi
> al massimo nove posti, compreso quello del conducente;"
>
>
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[Tagging] access: motorcar and goods, how to read the hierarchy

2017-02-17 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
Looking at the current state of access tag documentation:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access

isn't "goods" a subclass of motorcar, rather than a parallel class of it's
own?

I came across this, because the Italian driving code has besides others
these 2 classes (interestingly they also have a distinct class for animal
drawn sleighs):

- autoveicolo: super class which requires:
  - at least 4 wheels, motorbikes excluded
  - motor
  and has subclasses from a) to n)
  basically it is a subclass of "motor_vehicle", including cars, busses,
tractors,  and hgv, but excluding quads, trikes, motorbikes, light
motorbikes, cars with 3 wheels (e.g. Piaggio ape), some tractors,

- autovettura: vehicles for the transport of persons, max 9 seats, but
excluding some other classes (like goods).

Question is: what is motorcar meant to mean in OSM?

Isn't there a general problem with the hierarchy? Imagine finding a sign
forbidding motorcars to pass. Isn't this including hgv as well? (In Germany
at least it does), but in our hierarchy, motorcar and hgv are side a side.

Cheers,
Martin





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for reference:
https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/D.Lgs._30_aprile_1992,_n._285_-_Nuovo_codice_della_strada/Titolo_III

54a: "autovetture: veicoli destinati al trasporto di persone, aventi al
massimo nove posti, compreso quello del conducente;"
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

2017-02-17 Thread Warin 

On 17-Feb-17 07:13 PM, Thomas Bertels wrote:

Le 16/02/2017 à 21:23, Warin a écrit :

On 16-Feb-17 11:53 PM, John Willis wrote:


On Feb 16, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Dalibor Jelínek  
wrote:


vending=public_transport_plans

Sounds like a long term ticket, though I would call it a pass.

Most students here in Japan use 3 month passes between 2 stations 
designated on their pass (digital or paper ones; Pasmo cards in 
Japan are these) and have to repurchased or renewed for another time 
period. This is separate from the "debit card" style of pre-paid 
cards (like a Suica card in Japan or a BART ticket in San Fran) that 
track money for individual fares. They are time based tickets that 
has unlimited use over a time (usually over a month) for a chosen 
route - so buying one is different than buying a single-use ticket.




I can see the use of "plan" (as it is a monthly, sessional, or 
yearly contract), but I have never heard it referred to as that. I 
would choose public_transport_long_term_pass or similar, but if it 
is in use and eventually documented and supported by mapping apps, 
then it should be fine.





There are only 75 of these .. ask the people who placed them in OSM 
for an answer as to what they mean by 'public_transport_plans".




There's the same kind of thing as the Pasmo card in Belgium. These are 
getting more and more common in different countries.
I've tagged these as public_transport_tickets as I thought that 
public_transport_plans could mean maps, but it probably means long 
term "ticket". After checking its use in Germany, France and 
Netherlands, I'm sure it doesn't mean maps.


I think public_transport_tickets and public_transport_plans should be 
combined, maybe under a different name. Both can be sold at the same 
machine.


I would think a 'ticket' goes back to the days of a cardboard 'ticket' 
... usually for a single journey or return (there and back).


A 'plan' might be better termed a 'pass'? That would get away from the 
confusion with a map.


These all need to be well documented on the OSMwiki so that mappers can 
use (and hopefully stick to them).


If these need to be combined (good) then public_transport_payment (or 
purchase) ... or something like that?
I would try not to use the same tag names again .. to ease migration and 
misuse...


And add the ability to specify if we can get a ticket, a card 
(rechargeable or not), a token, or if we can only recharge a card we 
already have.

+1

To me
a 'ticket' could be 'single use, with the option of a return journey, 
for a set distance or place'.
a 'card' could be 'multiple use, no set time or distance, limited by the 
amount on the card'?

a 'pass' could be for a planned trip over a set route?

Humm maybe not..
There is, or at least was, a 'Eurorail pass' for foreigners to enjoy 
access to trips over a set period of time but open as to where they go.

Arr there is a similar BritRail Pass too...

Dictionary time
Pass .. 67 meanings ! No 48b (yep b) a prepaid or free ticket which 
allows one to travel on public transport without paying on each occasion 
of travel.
So a 'pass' could be 'allows one to travel on public transport without 
paying on each occasion of travel'
Is a card then the same as a pass? Perhaps there as different kinds of 
'pass' .. just as there are different kinds of 'ticket'.






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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

2017-02-17 Thread Thomas Bertels 

Le 16/02/2017 à 21:23, Warin a écrit :

On 16-Feb-17 11:53 PM, John Willis wrote:


On Feb 16, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Dalibor Jelínek  
wrote:


vending=public_transport_plans

Sounds like a long term ticket, though I would call it a pass.

Most students here in Japan use 3 month passes between 2 stations 
designated on their pass (digital or paper ones; Pasmo cards in Japan 
are these) and have to repurchased or renewed for another time 
period. This is separate from the "debit card" style of pre-paid 
cards (like a Suica card in Japan or a BART ticket in San Fran) that 
track money for individual fares. They are time based tickets that 
has unlimited use over a time (usually over a month) for a chosen 
route - so buying one is different than buying a single-use ticket.




I can see the use of "plan" (as it is a monthly, sessional, or yearly 
contract), but I have never heard it referred to as that. I would 
choose public_transport_long_term_pass or similar, but if it is in 
use and eventually documented and supported by mapping apps, then it 
should be fine.





There are only 75 of these .. ask the people who placed them in OSM 
for an answer as to what they mean by 'public_transport_plans".




There's the same kind of thing as the Pasmo card in Belgium. These are 
getting more and more common in different countries.
I've tagged these as public_transport_tickets as I thought that 
public_transport_plans could mean maps, but it probably means long term 
"ticket". After checking its use in Germany, France and Netherlands, I'm 
sure it doesn't mean maps.


I think public_transport_tickets and public_transport_plans should be 
combined, maybe under a different name. Both can be sold at the same 
machine.
And add the ability to specify if we can get a ticket, a card 
(rechargeable or not), a token, or if we can only recharge a card we 
already have.



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