Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

> On May 16, 2017, at 12:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> "Recently" there are also new couriers which specialize in sending letters 
> (as opposed to parcels), e.g. Pin AG in Germany https://www.pin-ag.de/ who 
> have their own stamps, or "Posta Express" in Italy

How do you recommend tagging that in the courier=* system I suggested? 

I tried to define the building function type 
(shop/delivery_centre/hub/warehouse) 

And to define the service operators offer: 
Courier:_brand_:ships=yes 

Perhaps the type of courier needs to be tagged. 

Courier:type=messenger (guy on a bike) 
Courier:type=letter
Courier:type=parcel (letter and parcel)
Courier:type=freight/logistics 
(is there fright/logistics tags? I dunno if people want to include it, but 
FedEx usually has a separate freight service (50kg or more) - but people are 
_not_ bringing 50kg pallets to a box shop. But defining a guy's shipping for 
logistics company is good 

Perhaps 

Courier:handles:letters=yes
Courier:handles:parcels=yes
Courier:handles:freight=yes
Courier:handles:automobiles=yes
Courier:handles:bio_samples=yes
(Medical samples are often done by special courier) 
Courier:handles:livestock=yes 
Etc 

Either of these allows for further courier definitions (vehicle distribution 
for sale or cross-country transportation courier:type=vehicle_transport) not 
imagined here. 

Maybe we don't need to tag this detailed for large national services (unless 
all this is set in a preset) - people know what they can do at their post 
office and what they can buy - but it lets people define it for lesser known 
courier. 

Javbw. 

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Language information for name

[Lukas Sommer]

This is still in RFC phase. Current state after discussion at the Wiki
talk page is using name:language (similiar structure like the yet
existing name:left and name:right) as key.

Lukas

2017-05-05 11:51 GMT, Lukas Sommer :
> Feature Proposal - RFC - Language information for name
>
> URL:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Language_information_for_name
>
> Definition: Describes the language in which the value name=* is (using
> the same code as Multilingual names).
>
> Feel free to ask questions if things are unclear!
>
> Best regards
>
> --
> Lukas Sommer
>


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag monumental railcars

[Andy Mabbett]

On 15 May 2017 at 22:04, Mark Bradley  wrote:

> I have mapped several cabooses (UK brake vans), a type of non-revenue
> car, and technically these don't fall under the categories of rolling stock,
> freight cars, or passenger cars/coaches.

As an en-GB native, and having spent ten years working at a railway
museum in England, I would say brake vans are definitely "rolling
stock" (as indeed is anything on wheels that moves on railway rails).

Both en.Wikipedia's categories (see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_van ) and Wikidata agree with
that.

-- 
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[Tagging] How to tag monumental railcars

[Mark Bradley]

> Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 15:56:13 +0200
> From: Tijmen Stam 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] How to tag monumental railcars
> Message-ID: <17c6e991-7a78-ab78-7701-acef9290d...@iivq.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> On 10-05-17 13:15, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> > On 10 May 2017 at 10:24, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> >
> >> I believe in British English it should be "waggon".
> >
> > "Waggon was preferred in British English until a century ago and it
> > still appears occasionally, but it is fast becoming archaic. In this
> > century, the shorter one is preferred in all main varieties of
> > English."
> >
> > http://grammarist.com/spelling/wagon-waggon/
> >
> >
> 
> I think I'm setting for historic=railway_car Which is the name Wikipedia uses 
> for one
> item of railway rolling stock which is not a locomotive (be it a freight or 
> passenger car
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_car
> 
> Railcar, in the UK rail parlance, means a single-car powered passenger car 
> with driver
> stands (usually) at both ends.
> 
> I took the liberty of creating a wiki page (basically copied
> historic:locomotive):
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Drailway_car


After reading the Wikipedia article entitled "Railroad car" that you referred 
to, I think you should modify your wiki page to modify the description of 
"railway car" to include non-revenue cars.  I have mapped several cabooses (UK 
brake vans), a type of non-revenue car, and technically these don't fall under 
the categories of rolling stock, freight cars, or passenger cars/coaches.

Mark Bradley


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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On May 15, 2017, at 10:28 PM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> 
> What you write makes a lot of sense. Just, that a lot of that exactly applies 
> to post offices/postal services as well. So why should post_office be an 
> amenity and courier a shop? I still suggest to somehow unify post_office and 
> courier,

Because the infrastructure is similar to _many businesses_, but the "customer 
facing side" of the business - the "post office" - is considered culturally 
different. 

A dentist is a tooth doctor. 
A McDonalds is a restaurant 
A convenience store is a market. 

But we tag them differently based on cultural separation of different things. 
This is difficult sometimes (when is a stream a river?) - but we have to be 
flexible to allow for this. Maybe it _is_ tagged all the same and it is 
presented differently by the data customer rendering it differently in their 
maps, but OSM usually represents these differences in the tag data - the lowest 
level - because OSM's issue is getting people to map the "the ground truth", 
which requires it to cater to people like me: a noob who is not a data consumer 
who wants to map. This requires a tagging system (or very good abstracted 
WYSIWYG editors) for the taggers. This means tagging systems should be 
noob-compliant as much as possible. Representing cultural differences in the 
lowest level of tagging is a good place to start. 

~

I would say a good place to connect courier and the postal services is not at 
the office level, but at the service level. 

My parents ship packages via a box shop because they don't want to mess up the 
customs forms, so they have someone else do it. This box shop ships via many 
services, including the USPS. 

I would say including them in the service when it goes beyond [amenity=mailbox] 
(however you tag a public mail drop box), such as a place that sells parcel 
postage and ships it for you:

Name=overpriced box shop
Building=retail
Shop=courier
Courier:service:USPS=yes. 
Courier:service:UPS=yes
Courier:service:FedEx=no 


The post offices - the culturally separate building - is kept separate, and the 
service is tied into the courier system where it is useful. 

Tagging the back-end of the post system with the same tags (warehouse=courier) 
is probably fine too, but I wouldn't touch "post office" with a 10 foot pole. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. May 2017, at 18:51, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
> 
> The default resolution to many tagging questions appears to be that the 
> mapper eventually gives up.



you can always add a tag like amenity=courier + name and/or operator=foo and be 
done.

(and later these can eventually be refined).

If you make a proposal it is because you look for a good solution that 
satisfies yours _and others_ needs. If the others find it appropriate (and this 
is where you might or not have been including their comments in your proposal), 
it gets documented as a standard.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It is correct that "perfect is the enemy of the good", but if you don't
> even try to make it good, it will very likely be bad ;-)
>

I don't often see that happen in the 'tagging' mailing list. But I've seen
- a good many times by now - people come in with tagging questions, have
the discussion wander off into excessive detail in search of the perfect
tagging scheme, and see the original person simply decide not to map the
feature in question or even leave the community altogether. The default
resolution to many tagging questions appears to be that the mapper
eventually gives up.
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Re: [Tagging] toilets:wheelchair or wheelchair_toilet (Both iD presets)

[Dave F]

On 15/05/2017 16:10, Clifford Snow wrote:


On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 6:01 AM, Dave F > wrote:


As Wheelmap only displays a subset of all establishments people
adding data are using iD. Would it big a big problem if
'toilets:wheelchair' & wheelchair:description were added to the
defaults.


I agree - adding wheelchair accessibility to toilet would be a nice 
addition to the toilet dialog box.


Dave - can you give more information on how wheelchair:description 
would be used? To me  it would be better to add key/values to describe 
attributes that using descriptive fields.


In an ideal world you'd be correct, but this is being used in different 
instances to give a description of wide variations in obstacles or 
conveniences for those who aren't fully abled. For instance one I saw 
describe how the entrance door only opened outwards, was very stiff with 
the handle high up. All very inconvenient for those in wheelchairs.


Take a look a Wheelmap 
 
for others. Click icon> Details.


Dave F




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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-05-15 16:49 GMT+02:00 Kevin Kenny :

> It may be a difficult idea for a German - I understand that you really
> don't have courier offices over there separate from Bundespost since DHL
> was nationalized - but in the US, we have a common type of shop, with names
> like "FedEx Store" (some are still branded FedEx/Kinko's), "UPS Store",
> "Mail Boxes Etc.", that offer only, or mostly, parcel services (most have
> related services like photocopying).



actually in Germany as in Italy there are a lot of different "big" courier
services besides Deutsche Post/DHL and Poste Italiane (federal Bundespost
is long gone, was split into several parts and privatized 25 years ago),
like UPS, FedEx, TNT, Hermes, GLT, Bartolini, ... There are also 20 or so
"Mailboxes Etc." in Rome. That was never my point, thing is, there are also
lots of very small courier services (like John wrote, a guy and his bike)
and a lot of in-between businesses.

We also have to distinguish between internal logistics centers (sorting,
etc.) and public facing "shops", and possibly combinations of both, and
other businesses like shops/petrol stations etc. offering courier services
besides others (i.e. it will be a property in OSM). "Recently" there are
also new couriers which specialize in sending letters (as opposed to
parcels), e.g. Pin AG in Germany https://www.pin-ag.de/ who have their own
stamps, or "Posta Express" in Italy
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3803189115 http://www.postaexpress.it/

All this said, there are even more services traditional post offices offer,
like banking (sometimes/often), in Italy this includes special kind of very
common money transfer (is used to pay bills like telephone, water,
electricity and more) which is also offered by third parties as a service
(mostly tobacco shops do it, it's called "Bollettino"), and you can usually
also put money there on debit cards issued by the post office ("Poste
pay"). And you can send money to people via the post (not via a bank
account, but with name and address, and the postman will deliver it.
"vaglia postale"). You can also get insurances at the post office. In
Germany you can use the post office for identification purposes ("Post
Ident"). These are just a few examples that come to mind, and surely not an
exhaustive list of available services, but they are good arguments to
distinguish between "real" post offices and other courier offices which
don't offer all those features, so I am not in the "we don't need a new
tag" boat. I'm rather in the "we need more" section.

It is correct that "perfect is the enemy of the good", but if you don't
even try to make it good, it will very likely be bad ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] toilets:wheelchair or wheelchair_toilet (Both iD presets)

[Dave F]

On 15/05/2017 14:25, Bryan Housel wrote:
I think I’d rather see people just use the existing wheelchair key, 
which iD provides in the “Add Field” dropdown.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wheelchair


They are using that, but to compliment it they're also adding those 
other two tags, to give a fuller picture.




The fields that we expose for restaurants and other buildings are 
already really cluttered with other things.


The drop-down selection menus are shot in length & the more tags on 
objects makes the database more accurate & detailed so I'm unsure what 
you mean by cluttered.




I don’t think I would be able to explain to new mappers that they are 
supposed to use the `wheelchair` tag on anything, but the 
`toilets:wheelchair` tag on a building that has the toilets in it, 
unless they want to map the toilets individually within the building 
as point nodes.  Too complicated.


Providing the desired tags as presents make editing the OSM database 
simpler not complicated. Dragging in multiple tags from taginfo for the 
'All Tags' drop down is more confusing. toilets:wheelchair is added to 
the node/polygon to indicate the establishment has accessible toilets, 
No one is expecting the mapping of individual cubicles.





Bryan



On May 15, 2017, at 8:01 AM, Dave F > wrote:


Ah, I was unaware of the 'Add fields' & 'All tags' differences. Does 
iD pull in all taginfo or is there a minimum number limit?


As Wheelmap only displays a subset of all establishments people 
adding data are using iD. Would it big a big problem if 
'toilets:wheelchair' & wheelchair:description were added to the defaults.


DaveF.



On 14/05/2017 17:00, Clifford Snow wrote:
It looks like iD is pulling in data from taginfo when manually 
adding a tag. When searching for wheelchair, iD only offers a point 
object, which is correct. We don't tag wheelchairs, we tag objects 
that have wheelchair attributes.


Clifford

On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Dave F > wrote:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_y-XYuXYAEbFAH.jpg




DaveF



On 14/05/2017 16:04, Bryan Housel wrote:

I just searched the iD code and none of these tags are iD presets.
Thanks, Bryan




On May 14, 2017, at 9:41 AM, Dave F  
  wrote:

Hi

toilets:wheelchair 64875 (iD & wheelmap preset)
wheelchair_toilet 4550 (iD preset)

What does wheelchair_toilet represent that's different from 
toilets:wheelchair?
If there isn't one I think wheelchair_toilet should be removed from iD's 
presets

Other combinations which should potentially be changed:
wheelchair:toilets 467
wheelchair:toilet 10
toilet:wheelchair 6

DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] toilets:wheelchair or wheelchair_toilet (Both iD presets)

[Clifford Snow]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 6:01 AM, Dave F  wrote:

> As Wheelmap only displays a subset of all establishments people adding
> data are using iD. Would it big a big problem if 'toilets:wheelchair' &
> wheelchair:description were added to the defaults.


I agree - adding wheelchair accessibility to toilet would be a nice
addition to the toilet dialog box.

Dave - can you give more information on how wheelchair:description would be
used? To me  it would be better to add key/values to describe attributes
that using descriptive fields.


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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> +1, these cases should all be addressed and differentiated. Additionally
> it could be needed to separately address letters and parcels. The proposals
> I have seen so far didn't solve this in any way, they didn't even describe
> a subset of these, but rather proposed simply a new word/tag without
> sufficiently defining or differentiating it.
>

It may be a difficult idea for a German - I understand that you really
don't have courier offices over there separate from Bundespost since DHL
was nationalized - but in the US, we have a common type of shop, with names
like "FedEx Store" (some are still branded FedEx/Kinko's), "UPS Store",
"Mail Boxes Etc.", that offer only, or mostly, parcel services (most have
related services like photocopying).

Right now, there doesn't seem to be any way to tag such a shop - and in the
US, at least, we do indeed need one. No USAian would call such a thing a
post office, so force-fitting that tag does not sit well here.

Can we come up with a partial solution to allow these shops to be tagged,
so that mappers can get on with that part, without trying to boil the
ocean? Those that are interested in using OSM as a business directory can
continue working on a taxonomy of services offered, surely. But let's at
least get the things on the map!

The perfect is the enemy of the good.
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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Zecke]

Am 15.05.2017 um 16:04 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
how would you tag the adit then? (I'm asking for the feature that is 
described in the wiki: a horizontal or almost horizontal tunnel going 
into the underground)


I wouldn't map that at all. And if so, a tunnel=yes, layer=-1 should 
describe all that's necessary. I also see no reason to distinguish 
between an adit (as tunnel) and a drift when tagging. Where does the 
adit end and the drift begin? First crossing? So when really beginning 
to start a tagging scheme for underground mining facilities a would stay 
with the general terms drift or gallery for the ways, knowning that one 
could also name it an adit, if it has a surface end.


Carsten

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Re: [Tagging] toilets:wheelchair or wheelchair_toilet (Both iD presets)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. May 2017, at 15:25, Bryan Housel  wrote:
> 
> I don’t think I would be able to explain to new mappers that they are 
> supposed to use the `wheelchair` tag on anything, but the 
> `toilets:wheelchair` tag on a building that has the toilets in it, unless 
> they want to map the toilets individually within the building as point nodes. 
>  Too complicated.


if you make it too simple it will not satisfy the users. How would you tag a 
restaurant that is perfectly accessible by wheelchair users, but they don't 
provide suitable toilets? 

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. May 2017, at 14:46, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> 
> "Tag" level - a business that does something else ( a convenience store, a 
> strawberry farm, a department store) that offers courier service in some 
> manner. Be it local delivery or international shipping. 
> 
> "Retail" level:  a shop that is just for people to come in and mail stuff or 
> pick up something. You see this a lot in the US (the UPS Store) they might 
> serve several different courtiers as one (a Box shop).
> 
> Commercial Level:  a local or regional distribution hub with a retail service 
> window/office. Tons of delivery trucks and a big warehouse that manages the 
> local package flow. 
> 
> Commercial warehouse level - regional sort facilities and staging offices. 
> These massive shipping distribution warehouses are private and gigantic. 
> 
> A tiny courier service my just be a guy and his bike. 
> 
> It may be a box shop shipping all services. 
> 
> It may be a regional courier with a single commercial distribution hub where 
> you can still stop by and send packages. 
> 
> It may be a giant sort facility that is private.
> 
> Amenity=* doesn't really cover any of these (unless it is a service offered 
> at a larger business, like a courier window at the airport) and office=* 
> covers *even less* - it would cover the corporate offices of these services - 
> but as I understand office, would not be used to tag any of the other 
> buildings. 
> 
> You also want to tag some information that is helpful, but not perishable. A 
> soft facility is always there. A shop that ships your purchases often does so 
> for a long time. The exact services, pricing, method, times, etc probably 
> often changes *a lot*. I don't think that is worth mapping - but mapping that 
> a shop can let you pickup a UPS delivery or let you ship a DHL package at a 
> convenience store is worth mapping


+1, these cases should all be addressed and differentiated. Additionally it 
could be needed to separately address letters and parcels. The proposals I have 
seen so far didn't solve this in any way, they didn't even describe a subset of 
these, but rather proposed simply a new word/tag without sufficiently defining 
or differentiating it.




cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. May 2017, at 15:40, Zecke  wrote:
> 
> So I would be very reluctant to re-defining the established OSM tagging here.


how would you tag the adit then? (I'm asking for the feature that is described 
in the wiki: a horizontal or almost horizontal tunnel going into the 
underground)


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Zecke]

Am 15.05.2017 um 14:37 schrieb Andy Townsend:

On 15/05/2017 12:59, Zecke wrote:
An "adit" is by definition an /entrance /to a subterranean gallery or 
drift.


Er, no - at least not according to my understanding of the term as it 
is used locally to me in England.
Well, after some googling it seems you're right and the wikipedia 
article is just a bit misleading. In fact it's just a copy from 
encyclopedia britannica (or vice versa?).
Comparing adits with drifts and galleries it seems an adit always has a 
surface end whereas the others can have so but do not need? So drift or 
gallery are more general and adit is more specific?
Anyway the term adit seems to be used often enough as a synonym for the 
adit mouth, probably as most people don't have access to the interior.


Same in German, where people are talking about "Stollen" when they just 
mean the "Stollenmundloch"


So I would be very reluctant to re-defining the established OSM tagging 
here.


Cheers,
Carsten
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 15.05.2017 um 14:59 schrieb John Willis:

My email accidentally got sent before I was finished, but I think you see where 
I am going.

What you write makes a lot of sense. Just, that a lot of that exactly 
applies to post offices/postal services as well. So why should 
post_office be an amenity and courier a shop? I still suggest to somehow 
unify post_office and courier, but I admit I don't have a good solution 
to do that.


Tobi

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Re: [Tagging] toilets:wheelchair or wheelchair_toilet (Both iD presets)

[Bryan Housel]

I think I’d rather see people just use the existing wheelchair key, which iD 
provides in the “Add Field” dropdown.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wheelchair 


The fields that we expose for restaurants and other buildings are already 
really cluttered with other things.  

I don’t think I would be able to explain to new mappers that they are supposed 
to use the `wheelchair` tag on anything, but the `toilets:wheelchair` tag on a 
building that has the toilets in it, unless they want to map the toilets 
individually within the building as point nodes.  Too complicated.

Bryan



> On May 15, 2017, at 8:01 AM, Dave F  wrote:
> 
> Ah, I was unaware of the 'Add fields' & 'All tags' differences. Does iD pull 
> in all taginfo or is there a minimum number limit?
> 
> As Wheelmap only displays a subset of all establishments people adding data 
> are using iD. Would it big a big problem if 'toilets:wheelchair' & 
> wheelchair:description were added to the defaults.
> 
> DaveF.
> 
> 
> 
> On 14/05/2017 17:00, Clifford Snow wrote:
>> It looks like iD is pulling in data from taginfo when manually adding a tag. 
>> When searching for wheelchair, iD only offers a point object, which is 
>> correct. We don't tag wheelchairs, we tag objects that have wheelchair 
>> attributes. 
>> 
>> Clifford
>> 
>> On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Dave F > > wrote:
>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_y-XYuXYAEbFAH.jpg 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> DaveF
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 14/05/2017 16:04, Bryan Housel wrote:
>>> I just searched the iD code and none of these tags are iD presets.
>>> Thanks, Bryan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On May 14, 2017, at 9:41 AM, Dave F  
  wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 toilets:wheelchair 64875 (iD & wheelmap preset)
 wheelchair_toilet 4550 (iD preset)
 
 What does wheelchair_toilet represent that's different from 
 toilets:wheelchair?
 If there isn't one I think wheelchair_toilet should be removed from iD's 
 presets
 
 Other combinations which should potentially be changed:
 wheelchair:toilets 467
 wheelchair:toilet 10
 toilet:wheelchair 6
 
 DaveF
 
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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-05-15 14:52 GMT+02:00 Zecke :

> Well, I'm no native English speaker, so I have to rely on what they're
> saying. I found however: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adit
> So they write:
> An *adit* (from Latin *aditus*, entrance)[1]
>  is an entrance to an 
> underground
> mine  which is horizontal
> or nearly horizontal,[2] 
> by which the mine can be entered, drained of water,[3]
>  ventilated, and minerals
> extracted at the lowest convenient level.
>



yes, this doesn't imply a node, it is using the word "entrance" for the
whole "tunnel", similarly like we do in German (Zugang can be both, a
punctual feature or a linear feature). Wikipedia also states that
exploration is another kind of adit, the German version has an illustration
that shows that the adit can also be the whole mine in some cases (at least
initially): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stolln.jpg

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

My email accidentally got sent before I was finished, but I think you see where 
I am going. 

Shop=courier for a box shop or other retail outlet that "sells" shipping is a 
great place to start. 

The rest is such a big mess of combinations or it is mapping the commercial 
facilities that the service operates. To do it decently and to have enough 
flexibility to map all the different kinds of businesses, as well as the 
various buildings a large service runs  requires tags from different existing 
tags and a top level courier=tag. You can't make a foo=courier tag and think 
that handles the needs of what different people want to see from "how to map a 
courier" 

Javbw 

> On May 15, 2017, at 9:46 PM, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> 
> Courier=regional 
> Courier=
> 
> 
> 
> Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Zecke]

Am 15.05.2017 um 14:39 schrieb Michal Fabík:
I did a quick overpass search for ways tagged as adits and some of the 
cases are interesting, to say the least:


http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/108932116
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/33139563
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/220961406
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/372881519
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/134806997

I agree, these are for sure just wrongly tagged.

Carsten
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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Zecke]

Am 15.05.2017 um 14:37 schrieb Andy Townsend:

On 15/05/2017 12:59, Zecke wrote:
An "adit" is by definition an /entrance /to a subterranean gallery or 
drift.


Er, no - at least not according to my understanding of the term as it 
is used locally to me in England.
Well, I'm no native English speaker, so I have to rely on what they're 
saying. I found however: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adit

So they write:
An *adit* (from Latin /aditus/, entrance)^[1] 
 is an entrance to an 
underground mine  which 
is horizontal or nearly horizontal,^[2] 
 by which the mine can 
be entered, drained of water,^[3] 
 ventilated, and 
minerals extracted at the lowest convenient level.


Maybe I misinterpreted this.

Carsten
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[John Willis]

The fact that office=courier doesn't attempt to replace post office seems a 
step in the right direction. 

So let's think of a massive courier - linked a regional or national one. 

This combination will vary, but:

"Tag" level - a business that does something else ( a convenience store, a 
strawberry farm, a department store) that offers courier service in some 
manner. Be it local delivery or international shipping. 

"Retail" level:  a shop that is just for people to come in and mail stuff or 
pick up something. You see this a lot in the US (the UPS Store) they might 
serve several different courtiers as one (a Box shop).

Commercial Level:  a local or regional distribution hub with a retail service 
window/office. Tons of delivery trucks and a big warehouse that manages the 
local package flow. 

Commercial warehouse level - regional sort facilities and staging offices. 
These massive shipping distribution warehouses are private and gigantic. 

A tiny courier service my just be a guy and his bike. 

It may be a box shop shipping all services. 

It may be a regional courier with a single commercial distribution hub where 
you can still stop by and send packages. 

It may be a giant sort facility that is private.
 
Amenity=* doesn't really cover any of these (unless it is a service offered at 
a larger business, like a courier window at the airport) and office=* covers 
*even less* - it would cover the corporate offices of these services - but as I 
understand office, would not be used to tag any of the other buildings. 

You also want to tag some information that is helpful, but not perishable. A 
soft facility is always there. A shop that ships your purchases often does so 
for a long time. The exact services, pricing, method, times, etc probably often 
changes *a lot*. I don't think that is worth mapping - but mapping that a shop 
can let you pickup a UPS delivery or let you ship a DHL package at a 
convenience store is worth mapping. 

You need a "courier" set:

Courier=*
Shop=courier  (a retail location) 
Commercial=courier
Warehouse=courier 

Courier=yes means there is some courier related services offered, but the 
nature is unknown. 

Courier:type=

=point 
Offers courier services at their shop
=shop 
is a retail shop for courier service (or many) 
=delivery_centre 
(the "last mile" office of some courier services, which have many "local" 
delivery centers , rather than having 2-3 large ones for a big city. For 
example, there are 30 or more kurokeno centers in Japan for every 1 UPS local 
sort warehouse in the US. They are tiny and small and cover maybe 2-4 sq km per 
office in suburban areas.) 

=local_hub 
the main sorting hub for a city or a few towns together. 
=regional_hub (for connecting regional)
=national hub (unneeded?) 
=international_hub (for international services at an airport or border 
facilities on the "inside" of customs. 


(Each higher one includes the smaller one; only one needed) 
Courier:service:local=yes 
Courier:service:regional=yes
Courier:service:national=yes 
Courier:service:international=yes 

Courier:service:*=purchases they will ship items purchased at their shop (very 
common for tourists areas) 

For any building where the brand or operator tag is the shipping service: 
Courier:ship=yes
Courier:pickup=yes. 

For business that offer shipping as an amenity or multiple brands
Courier:__brand__:ship=yes
Courier:__brand__:pickup=yes
For business that do business as a shipping and/or pickup point for a carrier 
(like picking up a package at a convenience store). 



Courier=regional 
Courier=



Javbw

> On May 15, 2017, at 7:45 PM, muzirian  wrote:
> 
> I think I tried to address suggestions made.Are you suggesting to scrap the 
> proposal and use post office instead?
> 
> Regards

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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Michal Fabík]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Zecke  wrote:

> Am 15.05.2017 um 11:47 schrieb Michal Fabík:
>
>
>
>> Shouldn't the tag be "man_made=adit_portal"
>>
>
> Why not just man_made=adit_entrance? I'm not sure I'd call a crudely dug
> opening (like the one in the picture on the Wiki page) a portal. (Maybe
> it's just me.)
>
> An "adit" is by definition an *entrance *to a subterranean gallery or
> drift.
>


I googled some dictionaries at random and most, if not all, say that an
adit is a passage (ex.: http://www.coaleducation.org/glossary.htm). Sure,
the whole passage also serves as an entrance to the mine, but that doesn't
prevent the adit itself from having an entrance. I think the word
"entrance" is rather unfortunate because it can denote one point in space
(a node in our case) as well as the whole space (passage, tunnel, corridor
etc.) that serves to access a bigger structure (the whole mine).



> man_made=adit is a well-established and well-defined tag.
>

Well to me, mapping an adit with a single node is like mapping a tunnel
with a single node.


> There are people who already map the gallery indicated by the adit, using
> layer=-1 or similar.
>


I did a quick overpass search for ways tagged as adits and some of the
cases are interesting, to say the least:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/108932116
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/33139563
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/220961406
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/372881519
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/134806997

This one looks more meaningful, but even here the entrance (i.e. the gaping
hole) is just implied where the adit meets the retaining wall, rather than
being mapped explicitly:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/381615454


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/05/2017 12:59, Zecke wrote:
An "adit" is by definition an /entrance /to a subterranean gallery or 
drift.


Er, no - at least not according to my understanding of the term as it is 
used locally to me in England.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Hi,

Am 15.05.2017 um 12:45 schrieb muzirian:
I think I tried to address suggestions made.Are you suggesting to 
scrap the proposal and use post office instead?


Regards


Well, when reading through the comments of the no voters (and the 
comments here in the thread) I believe that it was only a small concern 
that office would fit better than amenity. Actually, I myself find 
amenity much better than office. The bigger concerns focused indeed 
around how to reasonably differentiate and use a=post_office and 
a/o=courier, especially in worlds where there is no clear 
differentiation (any more).


I'm totally for introducing some new tagging allowing for describing 
courier services. But I am at the same time against setting another 
narrowly defined tag into stone where we need a broader approach. I 
believe we need something that
a) is able to describe a "traditional" postal service as it is still 
found in many countries by whatever that means there,

b) is able to describe outlets of private/new mail services,
c) is able to describe outlets of private/new parcel/courier services,
d) is able to describe any mixture or subset thereof,
e) is able to describe mail and courier related services offered by 
other amenities on behalf of the mail/courier companies (shipping 
parcels in a grocery store, mailing letters in a tobacco shop, ...).


I don't propose any ready solution for that. It could mean we stay with 
just amenity=post_office and add appropriate sub tags (something like 
post_office:mail=yes/no/shipping, 
post_office_parcels=yes/no/shipping/receiving, 
post_office:banking=yes/no, ). Or something else.


Coming back to your original question: I don't see how mainly changing 
the proposal from a=courier to o=courier addresses any of those raised 
questions I just described.


Tobi

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Re: [Tagging] toilets:wheelchair or wheelchair_toilet (Both iD presets)

[Dave F]

Ah, I was unaware of the 'Add fields' & 'All tags' differences. Does iD 
pull in all taginfo or is there a minimum number limit?


As Wheelmap only displays a subset of all establishments people adding 
data are using iD. Would it big a big problem if 'toilets:wheelchair' & 
wheelchair:description were added to the defaults.


DaveF.



On 14/05/2017 17:00, Clifford Snow wrote:
It looks like iD is pulling in data from taginfo when manually adding 
a tag. When searching for wheelchair, iD only offers a point object, 
which is correct. We don't tag wheelchairs, we tag objects that have 
wheelchair attributes.


Clifford

On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Dave F > wrote:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_y-XYuXYAEbFAH.jpg




DaveF



On 14/05/2017 16:04, Bryan Housel wrote:

I just searched the iD code and none of these tags are iD presets.
Thanks, Bryan




On May 14, 2017, at 9:41 AM, Dave F  
  wrote:

Hi

toilets:wheelchair 64875 (iD & wheelmap preset)
wheelchair_toilet 4550 (iD preset)

What does wheelchair_toilet represent that's different from 
toilets:wheelchair?
If there isn't one I think wheelchair_toilet should be removed from iD's 
presets

Other combinations which should potentially be changed:
wheelchair:toilets 467
wheelchair:toilet 10
toilet:wheelchair 6

DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Zecke]

Am 15.05.2017 um 11:47 schrieb Michal Fabík:


Shouldn't the tag be "man_made=adit_portal"


Why not just man_made=adit_entrance? I'm not sure I'd call a crudely 
dug opening (like the one in the picture on the Wiki page) a portal. 
(Maybe it's just me.)


An "adit" is by definition an /entrance /to a subterranean gallery or 
drift. No need to enforce this by inventing new tags that are just a 
tautology. man_made=adit is a well-established and well-defined tag.


There are people who already map the gallery indicated by the adit, 
using layer=-1 or similar. I personally object this.


Cheers,
Carsten
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Re: [Tagging] toilets:wheelchair or wheelchair_toilet (Both iD presets)

[Dave F]

On 14/05/2017 22:05, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
One of them, I think wheelchair_toilet, was caused by an 
implementation error in the wheelmap system, which was fixed last 
year. Correcting it was under discussion mainly on the German list, 
and a mechanical fix is envisaged.




Good to know.

DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[muzirian]

I think I tried to address suggestions made.Are you suggesting to scrap the
proposal and use post office instead?

Regards

On Monday, May 15, 2017, Tobias Wrede  wrote:

> Hi  Kelvin,
>
> I still don't see how this proposal addresses any of the many concerns
> brought forward in the previous amenity=courier voting or this thread. Just
> changing amenity to office doesn't make the whole post-office/courier
> tagging any better (quite the opposite in my opinion).
>
> Tobi
>
>
> Am 12.05.2017 um 11:43 schrieb muzirian:
>
> Is it okay to push this to voting again?
>
> Regards
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:08 PM, John Willis  > wrote:
>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:46 PM, Tobias Wrede > > wrote:
>>
>> Am 25.04.2017 um 11:21 schrieb John Willis:
>>
>> If I search for a supermarket and you send me to a 7-11, you failed.
>>
>>
>> I partly agree but when I tag Walmart or Trader Joe's as a supermarket's
>> brand that carries a clear expectation towards the assortment of the store.
>>
>>
>>
>> I didn’t send it to the mailing list by accident: here is the message he
>> is quoting from in it’s entirety
>>
>> Javbw
>>
>>
>> ~
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:43 PM, Tobias Wrede > > wrote:
>>
>> a supermarket's brand that carries a clear expectation towards the
>> assortment of the store.
>>
>>
>> This is true for all businesses in all counties. The regional assumption
>> of what goods/services are available varies not only by "brand", but what
>> each type of shop offers varies by culture - similar to what is available
>> at a "drug store" and a "pharmacy". A drug store in the US often has a
>> prescription pharmacy in the back.
>> What is considered a "prescription" and what is OTC is similar to the
>> regional variation with of what is offered at a supermarket or a post
>> office, but at least there is a clear separation between OTC and
>> prescription drugs in most countries.
>>
>> A Supermarket or department store o might also have most of what a drug
>> store offers and a pharmacy (like target did). But in other cultures, for
>> cultural or legal reasons, they might be separated, like here in Japan. So
>> there is a need for both a "pharmacy" (chemist?) and a "drug store".
>>
>> Whereas in the US, we would need a way to tag the prescription pharmacy
>> as an amenity offered by a drug store or a department store.
>>
>> I cannot think of a "pharmacy" shop that only sells perception medication
>> and nothing else in the US - they are are (seemingly) always part of a
>> larger drug store that sells chocolate and vitamins and OTC drugs and other
>> not-drug stuff the Prescription drugs are just another thing they offer.
>> But in Japan, the OTC stuff is separated from the prescription stuff, and a
>> prescription shop is very tiny and sells (basically) only perceptions,
>> nothing else _at all_.
>>
>> Trying to tie them together saying "they both sell medicines" and "we can
>> separate them by brand" and "we have so many variations we need to tag them
>> in a different manner" breaks the tagging system for all of them
>> completely, and does little to address the need for the "amenity" tag
>> needed to add it onto larger businesses that offer an entire business'
>> service as a department in their store - like a garden center at DIY shop,
>> a custom-order cake shop inside a supermarket, or package drop-off&pickup
>> for a courier at a convenience store.
>>
>> Javbw.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Michal Fabík]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have now changed the tag name from "depth" to "length", as there haven't
> been any more comments and the definition already said it was about
> "length".
>
> Bonus question, why not map adits optionally as ways?
>

Definitely agree. After all, the Wiki page seems to contradict itself when
it says that "visible portal of the adit is mapped as a node" (implied that
it's tagged as man_made=adit, the title of the article), and then it says
that "the adit itself" is to be mapped as man_made=adit. An adit's entrance
and the adit itself clearly aren't the same thing.


> Shouldn't the tag be "man_made=adit_portal"
>

Why not just man_made=adit_entrance? I'm not sure I'd call a crudely dug
opening (like the one in the picture on the Wiki page) a portal. (Maybe
it's just me.)


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] change recommendation from "depth" to "length" for the adit length?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I have now changed the tag name from "depth" to "length", as there haven't
been any more comments and the definition already said it was about
"length".

Bonus question, why not map adits optionally as ways? Shouldn't the tag be
"man_made=adit_portal" if only the portals are mapped and only nodes are
"allowed"?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dadit

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Hi  Kelvin,

I still don't see how this proposal addresses any of the many concerns 
brought forward in the previous amenity=courier voting or this thread. 
Just changing amenity to office doesn't make the whole 
post-office/courier tagging any better (quite the opposite in my opinion).


Tobi


Am 12.05.2017 um 11:43 schrieb muzirian:

Is it okay to push this to voting again?

Regards


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:08 PM, John Willis > wrote:




On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:46 PM, Tobias Wrede mailto:l...@tobias-wrede.de>> wrote:

Am 25.04.2017 um 11:21 schrieb John Willis:

If I search for a supermarket and you send me to a 7-11, you failed.


I partly agree but when I tag Walmart or Trader Joe's as a
supermarket's brand that carries a clear expectation towards the
assortment of the store.


I didn’t send it to the mailing list by accident: here is the
message he is quoting from in it’s entirety

Javbw


~




On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:43 PM, Tobias Wrede mailto:l...@tobias-wrede.de>> wrote:

a supermarket's brand that carries a clear expectation towards
the assortment of the store.


This is true for all businesses in all counties. The regional
assumption of what goods/services are available varies not only by
"brand", but what each type of shop offers varies by culture -
similar to what is available at a "drug store" and a "pharmacy". A
drug store in the US often has a prescription pharmacy in the back.
What is considered a "prescription" and what is OTC is similar to
the regional variation with of what is offered at a supermarket or
a post office, but at least there is a clear separation between
OTC and prescription drugs in most countries.

A Supermarket or department store o might also have most of what a
drug store offers and a pharmacy (like target did). But in other
cultures, for cultural or legal reasons, they might be separated,
like here in Japan. So there is a need for both a "pharmacy"
(chemist?) and a "drug store".

Whereas in the US, we would need a way to tag the prescription
pharmacy as an amenity offered by a drug store or a department store.

I cannot think of a "pharmacy" shop that only sells perception
medication and nothing else in the US - they are are (seemingly)
always part of a larger drug store that sells chocolate and
vitamins and OTC drugs and other not-drug stuff the Prescription
drugs are just another thing they offer. But in Japan, the OTC
stuff is separated from the prescription stuff, and a prescription
shop is very tiny and sells (basically) only perceptions, nothing
else _at all_.

Trying to tie them together saying "they both sell medicines" and
"we can separate them by brand" and "we have so many variations we
need to tag them in a different manner" breaks the tagging system
for all of them completely, and does little to address the need
for the "amenity" tag needed to add it onto larger businesses that
offer an entire business' service as a department in their store -
like a garden center at DIY shop, a custom-order cake shop inside
a supermarket, or package drop-off&pickup for a courier at a
convenience store.

Javbw.

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