Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Warin]

On 27/06/18 08:42, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On 27 June 2018 at 02:22, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote:



I've set up a propsal, please comment:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/discounter



Sorry Martin, but to me at least, that proposal doesn't really say 
anything?


Couldn't /any/ shop become a discounter, just by hanging a sign out 
the front "50% off everything in store"?


& the Wiki page doesn't  help matters at all?

The 4 examples they list for Australia are a main-stream supermarket & 
the 3 biggest department stores in the country!


+1

Here is an Australian discount shop 
https://www.discountpartywarehouse.com.au/

It does sell food .. of a sort.

And the wikipedia list of UK discount shops does not include Aldi nor 
Lidi .. so the wikipedia does not support the statements made here ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_discount_shops_in_the_United_Kingdom


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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 11:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 27/06/18 01:33, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:22 PM, marc marc 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> maybe something like for=retailer
>> like it exist for social_facility
>>
>
> Best idea I've seen so far.  OK, it's the only idea I've seen so far, but
> it doesn't seem
> obviously wrong (those with a far longer experience of mapping than I have
> may come
> up with many reasons it's a bad idea).
>
>
> access=retailer ??
>

I thought of that, but there are problems.  The first is that
access=members is discouraged in favour of
access=private (Costco requires a membership fee).  The documentation also
seems to be a little
dismissive of using access outside of highways and parking (it doesn't
strongly discourage it but it
doesn't encourage it much).  Authors of editors seem to prefer consistency
in subtags, so if we
allowed access=retailers|members|public there would need to be special-case
code to prevent
the option of making a highway access=retailers being shown.

So maybe wholesaler:for=retailers|members|public is the way to go.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 27 June 2018 at 02:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> I've set up a propsal, please comment:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/discounter
>
>
Sorry Martin, but to me at least, that proposal doesn't really say anything?

Couldn't *any* shop become a discounter, just by hanging a sign out the
front "50% off everything in store"?

& the Wiki page doesn't  help matters at all?

The 4 examples they list for Australia are a main-stream supermarket & the
3 biggest department stores in the country!
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Warin]

On 27/06/18 02:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2018-06-26 17:50 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny >:


26. Jun 2018 15:53 by pla16...@gmail.com :

Again, I have to say that in the UK people think of Aldi and
Lidl as supermarkets.  Cheaper, different brands, but in
the same mental category as Tesco and Safeway.

The same in Poland.



In Australia too they are thought of as supermarkets.


there are clearly verifiable differences, e.g. you cannot buy anything 
truely "fresh" at Aldi or Lidl, there might be a very small selection 
of fruit and vegetable, but they won't have fish or meat or cheese 
other than prepackaged and/or frozen. You will typically not get any 
really good beer, quality might be decent but they don't have the 
upper end quality (and maybe not even the low end), the extremely 
reduced variety is also observable, as is the presentation style (in 
boxes, not individually, etc.).


The quality, variety and costs of the products and produce is not 
something that OSM has tagged, indeed there is opposition to adding tags 
as to what stores sell. I would think the quality and costs would have 
even more opposition.


So I think at best this is a sub tag ... and I won't be using it ever. 
Much too subjective.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Warin]

On 27/06/18 01:33, Paul Allen wrote:
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:22 PM, marc marc > wrote:


Le 26. 06. 18 à 16:37, Paul Allen a écrit :

> Ummm, so how do we map real wholesalers, who sell only to
retailers and not
> to the general public?

maybe something like for=retailer
like it exist for social_facility


Best idea I've seen so far.  OK, it's the only idea I've seen so far, 
but it doesn't seem
obviously wrong (those with a far longer experience of mapping than I 
have may come

up with many reasons it's a bad idea).


access=retailer ??
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Warin]

On 26/06/18 23:43, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2018-06-26 15:09 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny >:


The same problem as with bakery. I would expect amenity=fast_food
to sell something that
at least can pretend to be a meal.

I like cuisine tag, but I will probably use cuisine=regional (and
maybe regional=obwarzanek).



I think this is something country / region specific and should get a 
dedicated subtag / property to be clearly identifiable. Cuisine on a 
bakery seems a bit strange, (not completely strange, some bakeries 
also sell meals, i.e. it could be misleading to add cuisine=regional).


I have around me a French bakery and a Bavarian bakery .. they do both 
sell 'bread' but they are different .. I think cuisine fits perfectly.


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Jmapb]

On 6/26/2018 5:16 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



Bretzel is German for pretzel.


Brezel or Brezen is the German version, but the Swiss write Bretzel ;-)


Now that you mention it, I've only ever seen it spelled Bretzel in Bern!


and if it's baked on-site, I think shop=bakery is good.

shop=bakery doesn’t imply that the bread is baked on site. You could use 
craft=baker (8) or bakery (139 uses) for it.
Right you are. I have a false memory here. Time to re-check how I've 
been tagging the bakeries.


jmb

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway strip

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 22:46, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> I would prefer to keep it in aeroway as proposed, because it is aviation
> related.
>
> Btw, the emergency key is about the location of emergency facilities and
> equipment, would this even fit?
>

Yes, I would agree aeroway=, rather than emergency=
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway strip

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 21:25, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> Give way to low-flying aircraft.
>

Especially when it's a fighter returning to base! :-)
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Jun 2018, at 22:41, Jmapb  wrote:
> 
> and if it's baked on-site, I think shop=bakery is good.


shop=bakery doesn’t imply that the bread is baked on site. You could use 
craft=baker (8) or bakery (139 uses) for it.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Jun 2018, at 22:41, Jmapb  wrote:
> 
> Bretzel is German for pretzel.


Brezel or Brezen is the German version, but the Swiss write Bretzel ;-)

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Jmapb]

On 6/26/2018 9:07 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
It is basically subtype of bagel* and similar to pretzel (bretzels is 
a typo, right?).


* that appears to originate in the Jewish communities of Poland,
with the first recorded mention in Jewish community ordinances in 
Kraków, Poland


Bretzel is German for pretzel.

If the obwarzanek is like a pretzel (one of the pictures even calls it a 
"precle"), and if it's baked on-site, I think shop=bakery is good.  Some 
map renderings even use a pretzel icon for all bakeries.


If there's no baking on premises, just the selling of obwarzanki, I'd 
call it fast food, or maybe cafe if there's seating and coffee.


Regardless of whether it ends up as shop=bakery, amenity=fast_food, or 
amenity=cafe, I like the idea of tagging with cuisine=obwarzanek. (After 
all, cuisine=bagel is reasonably popular.) Then, if you're seeking an 
obwarzanek, you can just search the cuisine tag and they would all come 
up, regardless of the shop/amenity classification.


jmb

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-26 17:50 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> 26. Jun 2018 15:53 by pla16...@gmail.com:
>
> Again, I have to say that in the UK people think of Aldi and Lidl as
> supermarkets.  Cheaper, different brands, but in
> the same mental category as Tesco and Safeway.
>
> The same in Poland.
>


there are clearly verifiable differences, e.g. you cannot buy anything
truely "fresh" at Aldi or Lidl, there might be a very small selection of
fruit and vegetable, but they won't have fish or meat or cheese other than
prepackaged and/or frozen. You will typically not get any really good beer,
quality might be decent but they don't have the upper end quality (and
maybe not even the low end), the extremely reduced variety is also
observable, as is the presentation style (in boxes, not individually,
etc.).

For other kind of store that are not selling food, the attribute "discount"
often means supposedly cheap, inferior products (and maybe additionally
quality stuff at the usual price), might be ok for occasional use, but the
Pros buy elsewhere.

There are also drugstore discounters (DM etc.), which have in Germany
entirely replaced what once were the chemists. Or building_centres which
have replaced serious hard ware stores (talking again about Germany here,
in Italy there are still ten thousands of hardware stores, you find them at
every second corner, but they often sell the same china tools you get at
OBI).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-26 15:53 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

> I'd categorize Toys "R" Us as a toy store and Staples as an office supply
> store.  As somebody else said in this
> thread, we shouldn't be tagging shops differently because their prices are
> lower.
>


the lower price comes at a cost.



>  "Today I want to buy something, ANYTHING, at a discount but I can't decide
> whether to go to Toys "R" Us or Staples."  Doesn't happen.
>


indeed. looks as if this would better a property, e.g. shop=supermarket,
discounter=yes

You could also use this information also the other way round: get me all x
around me, but not those with discounter=not no
To me it seems useful. Better question is verifiability, but for the
objects I have in mind, they state it themselves.

could also be applied to electronic shops and probably to any kind of shop
selling goods.

I've set up a propsal, please comment:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/discounter

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

26. Jun 2018 15:43 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :
> polish_bagels=only?




I dislike tag=it_is_something, small_part_of_thing=only tagging.

(in that case it is shop=bakery, polish_bagels=only)

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Mateusz Konieczny]

26. Jun 2018 15:53 by pla16...@gmail.com :


> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <> 
> dieterdre...@gmail.com > > wrote:
>
>>
>> indeed Aldi is the first (at least in Europe) to operate this way. It is not 
>> unlikely the discount store description in wikipedia was influenced by 
>> Germans >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_store 
>> 
>> and names Aldi and Lidl as examples:
>
> Again, I have to say that in the UK people think of Aldi and Lidl as 
> supermarkets.  Cheaper, different brands, but in
> the same mental category as Tesco and Safeway.




The same in Poland.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:22 PM, marc marc 
wrote:

> Le 26. 06. 18 à 16:37, Paul Allen a écrit :
>
> > Ummm, so how do we map real wholesalers, who sell only to retailers and
> not
> > to the general public?
>
> maybe something like for=retailer
> like it exist for social_facility
>

Best idea I've seen so far.  OK, it's the only idea I've seen so far, but
it doesn't seem
obviously wrong (those with a far longer experience of mapping than I have
may come
up with many reasons it's a bad idea).

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[marc marc]

Le 26. 06. 18 à 16:37, Paul Allen a écrit :
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:55 PM, Bryan Housel wrote:
> 
> `shop=wholesale` is what people are using for stores like Costco and
> Sam’s Club:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwholesale
> 
> Well spotted,  I didn't think to look for that.  Thanks.
> 
> Ummm, so how do we map real wholesalers, who sell only to retailers and not
> to the general public?


maybe something like for=retailer
like it exist for social_facility
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:55 PM, Bryan Housel  wrote:

`shop=wholesale` is what people are using for stores like Costco and Sam’s
> Club:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwholesale
> 
>

Well spotted,  I didn't think to look for that.  Thanks.

Ummm, so how do we map real wholesalers, who sell only to retailers and not
to the general public?  It would be irritating to go out of your way to
visit a wholesaler
only to find it won't let you buy stuff because you're not a retailer.
Industrial=warehouse
isn't an exact match.  There isn't an access=retailer, and access=private
has been
used for membership access (which could be by virtue of being a retailer or
because
you're a member of the public who has paid a membership fee).

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Bryan Housel]

> Meanwhile, there probably is a need to tag a kind of store that is sometimes 
> referred to as a discount store.  I'm
> thinking of the likes of Costco or Sam's Club.  They're essentially 
> wholesalers operating on a cash and carry basis
> and which are open to the public, not just retailers (but you may need to pay 
> a membership fee).  Sometimes known

`shop=wholesale` is what people are using for stores like Costco and Sam’s Club:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dwholesale 


Thanks, Bryan

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> indeed Aldi is the first (at least in Europe) to operate this way. It is
> not unlikely the discount store description in wikipedia was influenced by
> Germans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_store
>
> and names Aldi and Lidl as examples:
>

Again, I have to say that in the UK people think of Aldi and Lidl as
supermarkets.  Cheaper, different brands, but in
the same mental category as Tesco and Safeway.

"Meanwhile, a "speciality", "single line" or "category killer
> " discount store/shop,
> such as Toys "R" Us  or
> Staples , may specialise in
> specific merchandise lines, relying on bulk purchase and efficient
> distribution to keep down costs.[1]
> “
>

I'd categorize Toys "R" Us as a toy store and Staples as an office supply
store.  As somebody else said in this
thread, we shouldn't be tagging shops differently because their prices are
lower.  People don't look up shops
selling at a discount and go there to buy something they didn't want; they
look up shops selling what they want
to buy and then compare prices.  "Today I want to buy something, ANYTHING,
at a discount but I can't decide
whether to go to Toys "R" Us or Staples."  Doesn't happen.  "Today I need
office supplies, do I go to the the
office supply shop a mile away or Staples 30 miles away?"  Does happen.  I
think it would be a big mistake to
tag Toys "R" Us and Staples as discount stores, no matter what Wikipedia
says.

Meanwhile, there probably is a need to tag a kind of store that is
sometimes referred to as a discount store.  I'm
thinking of the likes of Costco or Sam's Club.  They're essentially
wholesalers operating on a cash and carry basis
and which are open to the public, not just retailers (but you may need to
pay a membership fee).  Sometimes known
as "Retail Warehouses" and sometimes as "Cash and Carries" (but that
originally meant wholesale only, and
originally originally appears to have been a trademark of the specific
wholesaler who came up with the idea).  They sell
what supermarkets and convenience stores sell, but you buy in bulk.

So, if there is actually a need for this (which I'm sure some people will
dispute) do we repurpose shop=discount for
these or have something new?  Either way (if we do it at all), how do we
distinguish between wholesale-only, retail-only
and wholesale-and-retail?

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-26 15:09 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> The same problem as with bakery. I would expect amenity=fast_food to sell
> something that
> at least can pretend to be a meal.
>
> I like cuisine tag, but I will probably use cuisine=regional (and maybe
> regional=obwarzanek).
>


I think this is something country / region specific and should get a
dedicated subtag / property to be clearly identifiable. Cuisine on a bakery
seems a bit strange, (not completely strange, some bakeries also sell
meals, i.e. it could be misleading to add cuisine=regional).

shop=bakery seems the closest, but only if you consider this kind of
product "bread", otherwise you can not apply the tag (definition: "A shop
selling bread").

Maybe you should create a dedicated main tag, (if it is not "bread") or a
subtag for bakery like bakery=pl:obwarzanek
or maybe bakery=polish_bagels ?

polish_bagels=only?

Essence is, something specific, not a convention that something generic is
meant to mean something specific.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Philip Barnes]

In the UK we have a chain called Greggs which fits this description. Most are 
tagged as amenity=fast_food although a few have seating so are tagged as cafés.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 26 June 2018 14:09:35 BST, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>The same problem as with bakery. I would expect   amenity=fast_food
>to sell something thatat least can pretend to be a meal.
>I like cuisine tag, but I will probably use cuisine=regional (and maybe
>regional=obwarzanek).
>
>26. Jun 2018 12:03 by 61sundow...@gmail.com
>:
>
>
>> > It is a form of fast food .. so perhaps 
>amenity=fast_food cuisine=obwarzanek ??
>>   
>>   On 26/06/18 19:58, Yves wrote:
>> > 
>>> This is similar to bretzels or bagels in other
>countries, right? 
>>>   
>>>   >> Le 26 juin 2018 11:48:26 GMT+02:00,Mateusz
>Konieczny >> 
>>>  a écrit :
   >>> In Kraków there are some places selling solely
>specificbaked product (obwarzanek).>>>   
   >>>   >>> Tagging it as shop=bakery would be
>misleading, it is notselling normal baked products.>>> 
 Obwarzanek is rather a snack, but it is not sweet so   
>shop=pastry is also wrong.>>>   
   >>>   >>> Obvious solution would be
>shop=obwarzanek but I prefersomething more generic, it is
>likely>>>   >>> that similar type of shop exists elsewhere.>>> 
> 
   >>>   >>> Maybe shop=bakery_snack? shop=snack?
   >>>   
   >>>   >>> For images of shops that I want to tag
>see>>>   
   >>>   >>>
>https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_na_ulicy.jpg
> 
   >>>   >>>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_salesman_in_Krakow.jpg
>https://d-pt.ppstatic.pl/kadry/k/r/1/90/3d/531a0d55e85d4_o,size,969x565,q,71,h,6496ca.jpg
>
   >>>   
   >>>   >>> Wikipedia page for this specific
>product: >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obwarzanek_krakowski
>
   >>> 
>>>   >>   
>>>   >>   
>>>   >> ___Tagging
>mailing list>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>>
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>> 
>> 
>>
>> 
>>

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

The same problem as with bakery. I would expect   amenity=fast_food to sell 
something thatat least can pretend to be a meal.
I like cuisine tag, but I will probably use cuisine=regional (and maybe 
regional=obwarzanek).

26. Jun 2018 12:03 by 61sundow...@gmail.com :


> > It is a form of fast food .. so perhaps  amenity=fast_food 
> cuisine=obwarzanek ??
>   
>   On 26/06/18 19:58, Yves wrote:
> > 
>> This is similar to bretzels or bagels in other countries, right? 
>>   
>>   >> Le 26 juin 2018 11:48:26 GMT+02:00,Mateusz Konieczny >> 
>>  >>  a écrit :  
>>   
>>>   >>> In Kraków there are some places selling solely specific   
>>>  baked product (obwarzanek).>>>   
>>>   >>>   >>> Tagging it as shop=bakery would be misleading, 
>>> it is notselling normal baked products.>>>   >>> 
>>> Obwarzanek is rather a snack, but it is not sweet soshop=pastry 
>>> is also wrong.>>>   
>>>   >>>   >>> Obvious solution would be shop=obwarzanek but I 
>>> prefersomething more generic, it is likely>>>   >>> 
>>> that similar type of shop exists elsewhere.>>>   
>>>   >>>   >>> Maybe shop=bakery_snack? shop=snack?
>>>   >>>   
>>>   >>>   >>> For images of shops that I want to tag see>>>   
>>> 
>>>   >>>   >>> 
>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_na_ulicy.jpg 
>>> >>  
>>>   >>>   >>> 
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_salesman_in_Krakow.jpg 
>>> >> >>> http://circulis.pl/common/img/katowice/katowice_3.jpg 
>>> >> 
>>> https://d-pt.ppstatic.pl/kadry/k/r/1/90/3d/531a0d55e85d4_o,size,969x565,q,71,h,6496ca.jpg
>>>  
>>> 
>>>   >>>   
>>>   >>>   >>> Wikipedia page for this specific product: >>> 
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obwarzanek_krakowski 
>>> 
>>>   >>> 
>>   >>   
>>   >>   
>>   >> ___Tagging mailing 
>> list>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
>> >> 
> 
>
> 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

It is basically subtype of bagel* and similar to pretzel (bretzels is a typo, 
right?).

* that appears to originate in the Jewish communities of Poland,with the first 
recorded mention in Jewish community ordinances in Kraków, Poland


26. Jun 2018 11:58 by yve...@mailbox.org :


> This is similar to bretzels or bagels in other countries, right? 
>
> Le 26 juin 2018 11:48:26 GMT+02:00, Mateusz Konieczny <> 
> matkoni...@tutanota.com > > a écrit :
>> In Kraków there are some places selling solely specific baked product 
>> (obwarzanek).
>> Tagging it as shop=bakery would be misleading, it is not selling normal 
>> baked products.>> Obwarzanek is rather a snack, but it is not sweet so 
>> shop=pastry is also wrong.
>> Obvious solution would be shop=obwarzanek but I prefer something more 
>> generic, it is likely>> that similar type of shop exists elsewhere.
>> Maybe shop=bakery_snack? shop=snack?
>>
>> For images of shops that I want to tag see
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_na_ulicy.jpg 
>> >>  
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_salesman_in_Krakow.jpg 
>> >> 
>> http://circulis.pl/common/img/katowice/katowice_3.jpg 
>> >> 
>> https://d-pt.ppstatic.pl/kadry/k/r/1/90/3d/531a0d55e85d4_o,size,969x565,q,71,h,6496ca.jpg
>>  
>> 
>>
>> Wikipedia page for this specific product: >> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obwarzanek_krakowski 
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Philip Barnes]

On 26 June 2018 10:24:16 BST, Selfish Seahorse  
wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 11:01, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry for writing again, but I believe this discussion shows that the
>term shop=discount is not self-explaining at all. It evokes different
>thoughts in different people / national contexts. In Germany, the term
>"discounter" is clearly defined, but it doesn't seem this is a
>statement that can be shared globally. As it isn't much used either, we
>should probably discourage the use all together.
>>
>> I have put a list of common names on these objects in the wiki, as it
>will help people familiar with the brands to understand what kind of
>shop was tagged:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount
>> most used values are Poundland and Poundworld.
>
>Concluding from their names and websites, Poundland and Poundworld are
>variety stores, not discount stores. This list seem to confirm your
>observation that shop=discount may not be self-explanatory globally.
>
>Any objections if I retag Poundland and Poundworld stores as
>shop=variety_store?
>
No objection but one of them is on its way out of business so we will soon need 
to retag them as closed and survey what takes their place. 

I do get the two mixed up, they both seem the same to me, but saw the Meole 
Brace shop is closing and checking OSM it is Poundworld. 

Phil (trigpoint) 

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Jun 2018, at 13:19, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> What you just described there sounds
> very much like my local Aldi, which most people here think of as a 
> supermarket, not a discounter.


indeed Aldi is the first (at least in Europe) to operate this way. It is not 
unlikely the discount store description in wikipedia was influenced by Germans 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount_store

and names Aldi and Lidl as examples:

“
A discount store or discount shop is a retail shop which sells products at 
prices that are lower than the typical market price.

A "full-line discount store/shop" or "mass merchandiser", such as Aldi or Lidl, 
may offer a wide assortment of goods with a focus on price rather than service, 
display or wide choice within lines. Meanwhile, a "speciality", "single line" 
or "category killer" discount store/shop, such as Toys "R" Us or Staples, may 
specialise in specific merchandise lines, relying on bulk purchase and 
efficient distribution to keep down costs.[1]

“



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway strip

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Jun 2018, at 08:04,  
>  wrote:
> 
> Don't really have a strong opinion on it either way, just to raise a point 
> for discussion... but if it's for emergencies, should it have some tag in the 
> emergency=* namespace?


I would prefer to keep it in aeroway as proposed, because it is aviation 
related. 

Btw, the emergency key is about the location of emergency facilities and 
equipment, would this even fit?

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway strip

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> No strong opinion either, but how are these verified. Is there some sort
> of sign?
>

Give way to low-flying aircraft.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Selfish Seahorse <
selfishseaho...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Any objections if I retag Poundland and Poundworld stores as
> shop=variety_store?
>

That's how I would tag them if either of those chains had a presence in the
areas I've been mapping.  That's
how I've tagged similar types of shop.  I still don't like the value
"variety_store" but it's what we have for that
kind of store so Iuse it.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> exactly. Wholesale is a different story. Discount shops do not sell huge
> packings / wholesale confections with many boxes inside. They might sell
> slightly bigger packages (often made on purpose for them, not available in
> other supermarkets), like 1,75l  lemonade instead of 1/1,5l lemonade, or
> 500gr cornflakes instead of 375gr cornflakes, but you will not find 4000gr
> Cornflakes.
>

Hmm   I think this is another example of different countries,/different
terminologies.  What you just described there sounds
very much like my local Aldi, which most people here think of as a
supermarket, not a discounter.  A supermarket that is
cheaper than the other supermarkets, a supermarket that mostly sells
products that are made for them under brand names
that disguise the fact that the real brand is Aldi), but still a
supermarket.

Over in the US a discount store means something very different.  It is much
closer to being a wholesaler that sells to
the public.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Warin]

It is a form of fast food .. so perhaps amenity=fast_food 
cuisine=obwarzanek ??


On 26/06/18 19:58, Yves wrote:

This is similar to bretzels or bagels in other countries, right?

Le 26 juin 2018 11:48:26 GMT+02:00, Mateusz Konieczny 
 a écrit :


In Kraków there are some places selling solely specific baked
product (obwarzanek).

Tagging it as shop=bakery would be misleading, it is not selling
normal baked products.
Obwarzanek is rather a snack, but it is not sweet so shop=pastry
is also wrong.

Obvious solution would be shop=obwarzanek but I prefer something
more generic, it is likely
that similar type of shop exists elsewhere.

Maybe shop=bakery_snack? shop=snack?

For images of shops that I want to tag see

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_na_ulicy.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_salesman_in_Krakow.jpg
http://circulis.pl/common/img/katowice/katowice_3.jpg

https://d-pt.ppstatic.pl/kadry/k/r/1/90/3d/531a0d55e85d4_o,size,969x565,q,71,h,6496ca.jpg

Wikipedia page for this specific product:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obwarzanek_krakowski



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Yves]

This is similar to bretzels or bagels in other countries, right? 

Le 26 juin 2018 11:48:26 GMT+02:00, Mateusz Konieczny  
a écrit :
>In Kraków there are some places selling solely specific baked product
>(obwarzanek).
>Tagging it as shop=bakery would be misleading, it is not selling normal
>baked products.Obwarzanek is rather a snack, but it is not sweet so
>shop=pastry is also wrong.
>Obvious solution would be shop=obwarzanek but I prefer something more
>generic, it is likelythat similar type of shop exists elsewhere.
>Maybe shop=bakery_snack? shop=snack?
>
>For images of shops that I want to tag see
>https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_na_ulicy.jpg
> 
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_salesman_in_Krakow.jpg
>http://circulis.pl/common/img/katowice/katowice_3.jpg
>https://d-pt.ppstatic.pl/kadry/k/r/1/90/3d/531a0d55e85d4_o,size,969x565,q,71,h,6496ca.jpg
>
>
>Wikipedia page for this specific product:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obwarzanek_krakowski
>
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[Tagging] How to tag bakery not selling bread or other bread-like products?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

In Kraków there are some places selling solely specific baked product 
(obwarzanek).
Tagging it as shop=bakery would be misleading, it is not selling normal baked 
products.Obwarzanek is rather a snack, but it is not sweet so shop=pastry is 
also wrong.
Obvious solution would be shop=obwarzanek but I prefer something more generic, 
it is likelythat similar type of shop exists elsewhere.
Maybe shop=bakery_snack? shop=snack?

For images of shops that I want to tag see
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_na_ulicy.jpg 
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obwarzanki_salesman_in_Krakow.jpg 
http://circulis.pl/common/img/katowice/katowice_3.jpg
 
https://d-pt.ppstatic.pl/kadry/k/r/1/90/3d/531a0d55e85d4_o,size,969x565,q,71,h,6496ca.jpg
 


Wikipedia page for this specific product: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obwarzanek_krakowski 

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[Tagging] fee:permanent_exhibition=no, fee:temporary_exhibition=yes?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I want to tag that a museum has free entry on permanent exhibitionsand paid 
entry on temporary ones.
I want to avoid fee:conditional as in this format it would not be usable at all.
Especially as some museums have free entry on specific days.
So museum with free entry on Sunday and free entry on permanent exhibition 
would be
fee=yesfee:conditional=no @ Sundayfee:permanent_exhibition=no
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Selfish Seahorse]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 11:01, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> Sorry for writing again, but I believe this discussion shows that the term 
> shop=discount is not self-explaining at all. It evokes different thoughts in 
> different people / national contexts. In Germany, the term "discounter" is 
> clearly defined, but it doesn't seem this is a statement that can be shared 
> globally. As it isn't much used either, we should probably discourage the use 
> all together.
>
> I have put a list of common names on these objects in the wiki, as it will 
> help people familiar with the brands to understand what kind of shop was 
> tagged:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount
> most used values are Poundland and Poundworld.

Concluding from their names and websites, Poundland and Poundworld are
variety stores, not discount stores. This list seem to confirm your
observation that shop=discount may not be self-explanatory globally.

Any objections if I retag Poundland and Poundworld stores as shop=variety_store?

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-26 11:00 GMT+02:00 Selfish Seahorse :

>
> As far as I know, prices are also low because discount stores
> typically sell own labels (no name products) instead of band products,
> because there's usually only one product per category instead of a
> dozen of it (e.g. only one kind of coffee, vanilla yoghurt or
> toothpaste)  because they sell only products with a high rotation
> (e.g. no fresh herbs, wholemeal flour or lactose-free products),
> because they sell products off pallets instead of putting them on
> shelves, because the shops are usually located at peripheries where
> rents are lower than in centres, because they attract customers with
> special offers (like smartphones at very low prices, but they only
> sell five of it) and/or because of parallel imports of brand products.



exactly. Wholesale is a different story. Discount shops do not sell huge
packings / wholesale confections with many boxes inside. They might sell
slightly bigger packages (often made on purpose for them, not available in
other supermarkets), like 1,75l  lemonade instead of 1/1,5l lemonade, or
500gr cornflakes instead of 375gr cornflakes, but you will not find 4000gr
Cornflakes.

Generally, small selection, simple presentation (besides pallets, they use
different shelves, e.g. shelves with 2 boards instead of 5-7 boards,
because they put boxes upon boxes in the shelves and sell out of the boxes,
rather than placing products in the shelves individually).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Selfish Seahorse]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 00:50, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> Discount stores are, as I understand it (I don't have any remotely near me) 
> more of a cut-down wholesaler but open
> to the public.  Presentation and packaging is that of a wholesaler, and 
> savings come from buying in bulk. Depending on
> the particular retailer, product range may be primarily foodstuff 
> (overlapping with supermarkets and convenience stores)
> or might concentrate on things like office supplies.  When it's foodstuffs 
> you're not buying a consumer-size box of
> cornflakes but a very large carton of consumer-size boxes of cornflakes.

As far as I know, prices are also low because discount stores
typically sell own labels (no name products) instead of band products,
because there's usually only one product per category instead of a
dozen of it (e.g. only one kind of coffee, vanilla yoghurt or
toothpaste)  because they sell only products with a high rotation
(e.g. no fresh herbs, wholemeal flour or lactose-free products),
because they sell products off pallets instead of putting them on
shelves, because the shops are usually located at peripheries where
rents are lower than in centres, because they attract customers with
special offers (like smartphones at very low prices, but they only
sell five of it) and/or because of parallel imports of brand products.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Sorry for writing again, but I believe this discussion shows that the term
shop=discount is not self-explaining at all. It evokes different thoughts
in different people / national contexts. In Germany, the term "discounter"
is clearly defined, but it doesn't seem this is a statement that can be
shared globally. As it isn't much used either, we should probably
discourage the use all together.

I have put a list of common names on these objects in the wiki, as it will
help people familiar with the brands to understand what kind of shop was
tagged:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddiscount
most used values are Poundland and Poundworld.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-26 0:14 GMT+02:00 Graeme Fitzpatrick :

> shop=convenience is a smaller supermarket, usually with longer opening
> hours, but also more expensive than full size supermarkets.
>
>


I would like to point out that scale does matter. A puddle is not a small
lake. A lake is not a small ocean. A bush is not a small tree, 5 trees are
not a forest (besides in OSM), ecc.
A supermarket is defined as offering a big selection of stuff (as opposed
to a discounter / discount supermarket which only offers a very small
selection of basic products).
A supermarket also is presenting stuff in a certain way (e.g. see here, all
items cleanly set up in the shelves, no boxes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarket#/media/File:Fredmeyer_edit_1.jpg
as opposed to a discount supermarket, where whole boxes are placed in the
shelves:
https://www.aldi.us/fileadmin/fm-dam/Responsive_Design/New_to_ALDI/ALDI_NewToALDI_ShoppingAtALDI_InformationPage_316x284_Desktop_8.jpg


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=discount

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-06-25 18:48 GMT+02:00 Tod Fitch :

> In my area convenience stores are relatively small with a limited choice
> of products with the defining feature being that they are open more hours
> than a typical store, often open 24x7.
>
> Usually the prices are higher at a convenience store, not lower.
>



convenience stores are always small, otherwise they are called supermarket.
discounters will not be open 24x7, usually they tend to have restrictive
opening hours to keep prices low.
Here's the self description of some (originally German) dicounter stores
and their leading principles:
https://www.aldi.us/en/new-to-aldi/shopping-at-aldi/
https://www.lidl.com/about-us

Other discount stores include:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netto_(store)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netto_Marken-Discount
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(supermarket)

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway strip

[Warin]

On 26/06/18 17:16, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 26/6/18 16:29, Philip Barnes wrote:
No strong opinion either, but how are these verified. Is there some 
sort of sign?




In Australia you get the "piano keys" painted on the road:

http://au.geoview.info/rfds_landing_strip_on_the_eyre_highway_wa,99731681p 



There should be yellow and black warning sings ... required by the main 
roads dept WA. .. sometimes stolen.

https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/BuildingRoads/StandardsTechnical/RoadandTrafficEngineering/GuidetoRoadDesign/Pages/Emergency_Landing_Strips.aspx


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway strip

[Warin]

On 26/06/18 16:29, Philip Barnes wrote:
No strong opinion either, but how are these verified. Is there some 
sort of sign?

Here, yes. and in some places;
the road furniture (guide posts, speed signs) are removable so the wings 
clear things., and the police come out to remove the signs and close the 
highway..


Wikipedia has a world wide article on it .. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_strip


And 
https://www.governmentnews.com.au/2015/07/highway-doubles-as-flying-doctor-landing-strip/


Then there is this - warning video is annoying
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/the-highways-masquerading-as-secret-military-airfields/news-story/adccbeb1ed6ab0d4ce20ac92bce72d20



Phil (trigpoint)

On 26 June 2018 07:04:35 BST, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:

Don't really have a strong opinion on it either way, just to raise a point 
for discussion... but if it's for emergencies, should it have some tag in the 
emergency=* namespace?

-Original Message- From: Jyri-Petteri Paloposki
 Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2018
00:56 To: 'Tag discussion, strategy and related tools'
 Subject: [Tagging] Feature
Proposal - RFC - highway strip Hi, proposing a new value
aeroway=highway_strip for landing strips that are normally
used as a part of a highway, but can be closed either because
of a military exercise or emergency landing for aeroplane
landing. The tag should only be used when the strip has been
dedicated as an emergency landing strip, other possibly
suitable emergency landing strips should not be tagged.
Currently there are a few highway strips that have been tagged
with aeroway=highway_strip (in addition to the proper
highway=* tag). Others have been tagged as aeroway=runway,
which causes the strip to be rendered the same way as an
aerodrome runway, which isn't sensible. There should be a way
to separate strips that have been dedicated as emergency
landing strips but are otherwise in use as a highway and
normal runways / dedicated emergency landing strips. The
proposal can be found at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/highway_strip
. Best regards, -- Jyri-Petteri Paloposki

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway strip

[Andrew Davidson]

On 26/6/18 16:29, Philip Barnes wrote:

No strong opinion either, but how are these verified. Is there some sort of 
sign?



In Australia you get the "piano keys" painted on the road:

http://au.geoview.info/rfds_landing_strip_on_the_eyre_highway_wa,99731681p

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway strip

[Jyri-Petteri Paloposki]

On 26.06.2018 09:29, Philip Barnes wrote:
> No strong opinion either, but how are these verified. Is there some
> sort of sign?

At least in Finland there is a warning sign of low-flying airplanes
()
and stopping is forbidden on the strip. The strips also have certain
characteristics: They're usually paved wider than needed for highway use
and traffic signs and trees have been cleared from even wider, any
necessary traffic signs being far on the side at least on Finnish strips.

AFAIK these are also marked in aviation maps, if the user has access to
those.

> Don't really have a strong opinion on it either way, just to raise a
> point for discussion... but if it's for emergencies, should it have
> some tag in the emergency=* namespace?

I think in reality these are used mostly for military exercises,
although they're marked as emergency landing strips in aviation maps, so
I'm not sure. Perhaps some kind of combination could make sense,
suggestions? This is somewhat similar to emergency=landing_site, but the
highway strips are at least in Finland not used actually for emergency
landings but for military exercises, which makes me think at least one
of the tags should be in aeroway=*.

Of course one possibility would be to combine emergency=landing_strip
and military=highway_strip (or something like that), but at least
military=airfield seems to also require an aeroway=* tag, so why not
this one too.

Best regards,
-- 
Jyri-Petteri Paloposki

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