Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Warin]

On 16/10/18 16:24, Gerd Petermann wrote:


I think I found one reason for the mistagged ways. The wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dtraffic_island
proposes to use highway=crossing + crossing=island to map a traffic island.
It says that this should be used on nodes but a mapper looking for a
replacement of a landuse tag might miss that.
It also claims to show numbers from taginfo for this combination, but in
fact it shows the numbers for
just crossing=island:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=crossing&value=island
This tag can be used on ways, together with e.g. footway=crossing, but that
would not be used to map the area of the traffic island.

AFAIK taginfo doesn't allow to ask for tag combinations. No idea if this
occurs on other wiki pages, if so,
it is very misleading.

I think the said wiki page should be changed so that highway=crossing is not
mentioned at all.


What a mess.
landuse .. should be used for large areas.. such as landuse=residential.
Landuse=highway could be used,
that would cover the traffic island, road and footpath and the road verge.

--
An example of a traffic island?
Here is a 'traffic island' ... it is an overlayed way that is in the data base 
see
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/584316766#map=19/-37.60324/145.11787

I note there is no wiki guidance on tagging a traffic island in detail, such as 
this island that
spatially separates entry and exit. This is not uncommon where I am.

I also note that traffic island is not part of the approval .. so this is an 
addition that is not approved.

I have no solution as to how to map this in an easy way.


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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Gerd Petermann]

I think I found one reason for the mistagged ways. The wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dtraffic_island
proposes to use highway=crossing + crossing=island to map a traffic island.
It says that this should be used on nodes but a mapper looking for a
replacement of a landuse tag might miss that.
It also claims to show numbers from taginfo for this combination, but in
fact it shows the numbers for 
just crossing=island:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=crossing&value=island
This tag can be used on ways, together with e.g. footway=crossing, but that
would not be used to map the area of the traffic island.

AFAIK taginfo doesn't allow to ask for tag combinations. No idea if this
occurs on other wiki pages, if so,
it is very misleading.

I think the said wiki page should be changed so that highway=crossing is not
mentioned at all.

Gerd



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=governmental

[John Willis]

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 7:13 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> How about those "public safety" groups that are manned & operated by unpaid 
> volunteers, often with minimum (or no) Govt funding?

A building dedicated to a volunteer fire department - where they keep the truck 
and the hoses - is still land used by a structure dedicated to public Saftey. 

It may not be a giant police station or a multi-floor firehouse - yet all of 
them usually have dedicated land larger than building. 

If the community depends of them for fire protection services - they are the 
"fire department". 

I assume tagging for a fire station will have some kind of tagging to denote 
it's volunteer or irregular staffing situation.

Pulling them out of "landuse=governmental" seems to be a no-brainer, so making 
a tag for them would help more narrowly define landuse=governmental. 


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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[marc marc]

Le 16. 10. 18 à 00:20, Greg Troxel a écrit :
> François Lacombe  writes:
> 
>> Basically in power language, a line is not insulated 
>> while a cable actually is.
> 
> So I don't see how we can make "insulated" a big deal in tagging,
> defining the top-level tag, rather than being a detail to add when
> known.

if the schema was build from scratch,
indeed s subtag insulated= should be better
When I see a line/cable a little far away, I'm unable to tell if it's 
insulated or no... I just guest it with the guested low/hight voltage :s
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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Greg Troxel]

François Lacombe  writes:

> Basically in power language, a line is not insulated while a cable actually
> is.

A difficulty here is that mappers cannot tell a protective covering from
insulation.  I was at an open house of my power company recently and
they had a mockup of a distribution line, of 8 kV phase to ground (as
part of 13.8 kV 3-phase), connected to a transformer, and then 120/240
from the transformer to the meter - all very normal in the US.

However, I was told that the protective covering on the 8 kV line is NOT
insulation, even though it looks much like it.  It's there for abrasion
resistance to slow corrosion, and perhaps for added mechanical strength,
but it does not meet insulation specs.

So I don't see how we can make "insulated" a big deal in tagging,
defining the top-level tag, rather than being a detail to add when
known.

That said, I fully support your notion of tagging voltage, so that
low-voltage lines can be rendered only at extreme zooms, and to assume a
line is low voltage (240V seems like a reasonable default assumption in
terms of controlling rendering) if not tagged.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=governmental

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 07:17, John Willis  wrote:

>
> Landuse=public_safety would be generic enough to be for police stations,
> rangers, lifeguards, snow patrol, highway patrol, harbor patrol, fire
> stations, wildfire stations, and other "official" services offered to the
> public to ensure their Saftey.
>

How about those "public safety" groups that are manned & operated by unpaid
volunteers, often with minimum (or no) Govt funding?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=governmental

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 5:32 AM, SelfishSeahorse  
> wrote:
> 
> No, landuse=governmental is intended for the land used for organising
> a country, state, municipality etc., that is, the 'core functions' of
> a country, state, municipality etc., which are administering it,
> making rules (laws), interpreting and executing them.

One solution might be to split off 

Landuse=Public_safety into its own landuse. 

Many times, those are mostly private buildings with a small public facing 
section. 

Landuse=public_safety would be generic enough to be for police stations, 
rangers, lifeguards, snow patrol, highway patrol, harbor patrol, fire stations, 
wildfire stations, and other "official" services offered to the public to 
ensure their Saftey. 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 9:59 PM ChameleonScales <
chameleonsca...@protonmail.com> wrote:

> I made some changes again.
>

I like the way you have a purple rocking horse and describe it as a brown
rocking horse. :)

It might be an idea either to put up a brown version or to clarify that the
intended icon is a brown
version of the purple one shown.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

I made some changes again. Mainly I changed "rental" to "loan" even though loan 
doesn't exist, because they have a quite different meaning:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rent
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/loan

and I changed the age tags to account for a comment in the proposal's 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=governmental

[SelfishSeahorse]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 at 22:32, SelfishSeahorse  wrote:
>
> However, the problem of how to call the sub-tag(s) for public administration, 
> executive, parliament and courts were exactly the same as without 
> landuse=institutional + sub-tags.

PS: The only benefit i see of landuse=institutional + sub-tags are
mixed-use institutional areas (e.g. public administration offices and
a police station being located in the same building).

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=governmental

[SelfishSeahorse]

Hi, Martin!

On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 at 01:09, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> So police stations are out? The ministry of defense is in, but the 
> subordinate units of it are out (because military)? Courts are in? Prisons? 
> Storage (e.g. 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_strategic_petroleum_reserves )?
>
> What about publicly owned companies? Does it matter whether they are 100% 
> public, 50% or only 30%?
> Do I understand it correctly that this is for all governmental places 
> regardless of the actual use, like offices, laboratories (public health 
> department, other public institutes)?

No, landuse=governmental is intended for the land used for organising
a country, state, municipality etc., that is, the 'core functions' of
a country, state, municipality etc., which are administering it,
making rules (laws), interpreting and executing them. Therefore only
public administration offices, meeting places of the assembly, courts
and offices of the executive are included in landuse=governmental.
Other governmental services that have different purposes than
organisation (e.g. police stations, prisons, public schools or
hospitals) are excluded from landuse=governmental.

landuse=governmental is about the purpose, that is governing, not the
operator or owner.

I agree that landuse=governmental isn't a very clear tag, but i
haven't been able to find a better one. As mentioned earlier, while
landuse=public_administration would be the most comprehensible, it is,
strictly speaking, only one part of the government. I'm not sure if it
would be a good idea to also tag meeting places of parliaments
landuse=public_administration. Instead defining separate landuse tags
for public administration, executive, parliament and courts doesn't
seem to be practicable either, as many countries don't distinguish
between law making (legislature/parliament) and law executing
(executive) and because at least public administration and executive
are often located within the same building (especially on municipal
level).

What you were thinking of sounds like the very broadly defined
landuse=institutional, which includes facilities with a wide variety
of purposes. [1] If we went that way, we would need sub-tags
(including for military area, i.e. landuse=institutional +
institutinal=military instead of landuse=military). However, the
problem of how to call the sub-tag(s) for public administration,
executive, parliament and courts were exactly the same as without
landuse=institutional + sub-tags.

[1]: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:landuse%3Dinstitutional

Regards
Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[bkil]

When in doubt, there's always description=* (along with strapline=*)
intended for users and fixme=* or note=* for editors. A determined
individual could reclassify POI later on without traveling the whole
country if a reputable editor leaves enough information.

Just wanted to mention that around here, there exist many shops that
specialize by country or cuisine, not necessarily by one or two
defining foodstuff (of course there are exceptions, like for spice,
chocolate, etc.). As any given taxonomy will certainly fail in a
number of other countries, it sounds reasonable to stay flexible where
possible.
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 9:40 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> Am Do., 11. Okt. 2018 um 21:21 Uhr schrieb Mark Wagner 
> :
>>
>>  There are no "more knowledgeable mappers" in my area.  I
>> am the only person in an area the size of the United Kingdom to make a
>> concentrated effort at mapping business: if I don't map it, it won't
>> get mapped for years, if ever.
>
>
>
>
> hopefully you will be joined by other mappers, because it is crystal clear 
> one person won't be able to map a territory the size of the UK ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=governmental

[SelfishSeahorse]

On Sun, 14 Oct 2018 at 20:35, Tom Hardy  wrote:
>
> Just to throw a couple more your way:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/622149574
> landuse=garages is a staging area for city public works and county truck
> repair, and
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/448672572
> amenity=recycling is for city run recycling of yard waste
>
> I couldn't find exactly appropriate tagging so I think I used a sort of least
> appropriate method.

The tagging seems fine to me.

> Is it time to consider some sort of general overhaul of landuse to make it
> more flexible?

Are you thinking of a system with sub-keys? Not sure if a general
overhaul is necessary, but land use (as well as land cover) certainly
has room for improvement: there are missing land uses (e.g. the
proposed governing area or forestry) and some of the current tags are
problematical and confusing (e.g. retail, which actually is a subset
of commercial).

By the way, if someone is interested, i've recently made a table
comparing land use categories from the UK's National Land Use Database
with OSM's landuse tags:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dgovernmental

Regards
Markus

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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 13:55 Uhr schrieb Lionel Giard <
lionel.gi...@gmail.com>:

>
> For tourism=* tag, for me, it is just a method to not tag each artwork
> with "tourism=attraction" i would suppose (as they are probably all an
> attraction), while a parliament *could *be a tourism=attraction, while
> another part of it (or another parliament building) is of no particular
> touristic value !
>


I am pretty sure it is the opposite way: all parliaments (or almost) are
tourist attractions, but most public art isn't. Just a few examples of
things that can undoubtfully (I think?) be considered artwork, and are
clearly no tourist attractions. And these are even sculptures set up by the
government at prominent places, not graffiti informally applied under dark
bridges or something like this.
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.860526&lng=12.4981104&z=17&pKey=8MF90bV-hB3dm6WKADz20Q&focus=photo&x=0.1997206436619774&y=0.58040952107982&zoom=1.747553574261222
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8609864,12.4858747,3a,75y,47.62h,96.46t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1s_Q0AICeKMXgcdHMkGp18Rg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D_Q0AICeKMXgcdHMkGp18Rg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D92.65221%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8620511,12.4776334,3a,20.1y,102.9h,88.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLf6XhgDVItqmeVsigDfrUQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8365953,12.4692321,3a,33y,277.26h,100.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOYjD7uTzNA68OPjgQJiIlg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8226411,12.465383,3a,60.7y,353.96h,106.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLV51ZinWzmMAMA0_-FVYCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192



Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I would also expect cables to render very late by default (i.e. not voltage
tagged), similar to minor lines or even later, if we are basically going to
distinguish a cable running from the door bell to the push button from a
high voltage transmission cable only by adding the voltage.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Mateusz Konieczny]

15. Oct 2018 12:27 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


>> I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a 
>> standard.
>>
>> Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a 
>> tourism attractions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> following this argument, we would have to tag the national parliaments as 
> tourism=parliament because they are quite likely tourism attractions.




I never said that it is a good idea, just that  "has nothing at all" is not 
true.




And now I am scared to check how parliaments are tagged, I would not be 
surprised by

tourism=parliament.
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Mateusz Konieczny]

15. Oct 2018 15:34 by chameleonsca...@protonmail.com 
:
>
> So how can I change the url of my proposal to toy_library instead of 
> toy_and_game_library?

I moved the page in



https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/toy_library&diff=1680852&oldid=1680850
 


For future: there should be an option to move page near "edit" button.



For me it is hidden in "more" menu.




In general, OSM wiki is using mediawiki software, the same as Wikipedia so 
googling






https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mediawiki+change+title&t=canonical&ia=web 







https://duckduckgo.com/?q=wikipedia+change+title&t=canonical&ia=web 





sometimes helps to find how to do some things.

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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

Thanks but this has already been taken care of in the proposal page. I don't 
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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[François Lacombe]

Le lun. 15 oct. 2018 à 16:13, Joseph Eisenberg 
a écrit :

> Would you recommend renderering lines and cables of unknown voltage as low
> voltage, eg only render on zoom level 18 or 19 (neighborhood or Bock
> level), with a thin line?
>

Yes, this would solve the cluttering problem and encourage users to put
voltage if they wish to see their very own cable on lower zooms.
This can be completed with Osmose check and JSOM validation rules (warning
for missing voltage).

In micro-mapping, yes power=cable can be used to link your house to garage
until the wires are actually insulated.

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Note that 

(a) proposed icon is the least important part of any proposal and may be safely 
skipped
(b) if someone really wants to add a proposed icon there is no obligation 
tofollow colour scheme and size limitations of a specific map style 

15. Oct 2018 15:55 by pla16...@gmail.com :


> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 2:29 PM ChameleonScales <> 
> chameleonsca...@protonmail.com > > 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Also I'd like to upload a proposed svg icon but apparently I don't have 
>> permission to upload media files on the wiki.
>>
>
> You haven't made enough edits on the wiki for the automated system to 
> consider you sufficiently>  trustworthy to upload files.
> I'd do it for you, but I don't think the icon is suitable.  It is a games 
> icon.  As you say in another> post, you've decided that "toy library" is more 
> commonly used than "toy and games library" to> refer to these places, so your 
> icon gives the wrong impression.
> I'd also note that the icon for a book library is identical in shape to that 
> of a bookshop but the>  library icon is brown (amenity) and the bookshop icon 
> is purple (shop).  I'd therefore suggest that>  it's more in keeping with 
> established practise to use a brown version of the toyshop icon (I don't 
> know>  if that's something that the carto stages can do automatically from a 
> single icon or if you need to> generate a brown version).
> Also, these icons are rendered at 16x16 pixels on the map and your icon is 
> not going to be legible.
> And even if I thought your icon were appropriate and suitable, it's the wrong 
> colour anyway. :)
> -- 
> Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

I made some updates. Feedback appreciated.___
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

You made good points. Let's use a brown rocking horse then.

So, about my url question, is it doable?

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, October 15, 2018 4:04 PM, Joseph Eisenberg 
 wrote:

> Yes, the software can change the icon color, so if an existing icon shape is 
> good, we can just use that.
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:57 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 2:29 PM ChameleonScales 
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Also I'd like to upload a proposed svg icon but apparently I don't have 
>>> permission to upload media files on the wiki.
>>
>> You haven't made enough edits on the wiki for the automated system to 
>> consider you sufficiently
>> trustworthy to upload files.
>>
>> I'd do it for you, but I don't think the icon is suitable.  It is a games 
>> icon.  As you say in another
>> post, you've decided that "toy library" is more commonly used than "toy and 
>> games library" to
>> refer to these places, so your icon gives the wrong impression.
>>
>> I'd also note that the icon for a book library is identical in shape to that 
>> of a bookshop but the
>> library icon is brown (amenity) and the bookshop icon is purple (shop).  I'd 
>> therefore suggest that
>> it's more in keeping with established practise to use a brown version of the 
>> toyshop icon (I don't know
>> if that's something that the carto stages can do automatically from a single 
>> icon or if you need to
>> generate a brown version).
>>
>> Also, these icons are rendered at 16x16 pixels on the map and your icon is 
>> not going to be legible.
>>
>> And even if I thought your icon were appropriate and suitable, it's the 
>> wrong colour anyway. :)
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Tom Pfeifer <
t.pfei...@computer.org>:

> On 15.10.2018 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > 3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
> > For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging,
> which seems clearly wrong
> > (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for ages
> 0-3).
>
> I thought the consensus was here that it depends on the country. In
> Germany, I see mostly the "Kita"
> (Kindertagesstätte) structure which in the same institution enrols age 0-6
> in different departments
> or groups, and a lot offer afterschool supervision (Hort).
> This is easily expressed with the min_age + max_age tag, and some folks
> use after_school=yes.



For the German situation, KiTa and Hort should/could well be tagged with
childcare, but "Krippe"? And if we decide to tag a Krippe (creche/nursery)
the same as a Hort or KiTa, but with age tags, isn't that inconsistent with
Kindergarten? From my point of view, Hort and KiTa are both childcare
places which extend beyond the times of kindergarten and school (and are
after those, typically), while a Krippe is for babies up to 3 years and is
more like a Kindergarten, apart from the age. It would really be much more
logical and easier to introduce / accept nurseries (there's a reason there
is a specific term for this in language, no?), then throw most but not all
of "child-related-stuff" in the same cauldron where you will have to dig
for age group and other specfic tags in order to make sense of it.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Sorry, that should be “80% of power=cable...”

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 11:11 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  0% of power=cable have a voltage tag:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/power=cable#combinations
>
> Only 30% of power=minor_line have a voltage:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/power=minor_line#combinations
>
> It seems that most mappers do not put a voltage on small power lines. I
> suspect this may be true for small overhead power cables too
>
> Would you recommend renderering lines and cables of unknown voltage as low
> voltage, eg only render on zoom level 18 or 19 (neighborhood or Bock
> level), with a thin line?
>
> Joseph
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:27 PM Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, October 15, 2018 2:28 pm, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> > Is there any limit to what can be mapped power=cable ?
>> > Can micromappers use this tag for wires connecting their
>> > house to a garage ?
>>
>> voltage=* is a clear importance filter that offers a simple practical
>> solution to fears of excessive detail - anything less than 1000 Volts is
>> low voltage and rendering shall relegate it to accordingly low scales.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

 0% of power=cable have a voltage tag:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/power=cable#combinations

Only 30% of power=minor_line have a voltage:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/power=minor_line#combinations

It seems that most mappers do not put a voltage on small power lines. I
suspect this may be true for small overhead power cables too

Would you recommend renderering lines and cables of unknown voltage as low
voltage, eg only render on zoom level 18 or 19 (neighborhood or Bock
level), with a thin line?

Joseph


On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:27 PM Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

> On Mon, October 15, 2018 2:28 pm, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> > Is there any limit to what can be mapped power=cable ?
> > Can micromappers use this tag for wires connecting their
> > house to a garage ?
>
> voltage=* is a clear importance filter that offers a simple practical
> solution to fears of excessive detail - anything less than 1000 Volts is
> low voltage and rendering shall relegate it to accordingly low scales.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Joseph Eisenberg]

 Yes, the software can change the icon color, so if an existing icon shape
is good, we can just use that.
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:57 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 2:29 PM ChameleonScales <
> chameleonsca...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Also I'd like to upload a proposed svg icon but apparently I don't have
>> permission to upload media files on the wiki.
>>
>
> You haven't made enough edits on the wiki for the automated system to
> consider you sufficiently
> trustworthy to upload files.
>
> I'd do it for you, but I don't think the icon is suitable.  It is a games
> icon.  As you say in another
> post, you've decided that "toy library" is more commonly used than "toy
> and games library" to
> refer to these places, so your icon gives the wrong impression.
>
> I'd also note that the icon for a book library is identical in shape to
> that of a bookshop but the
> library icon is brown (amenity) and the bookshop icon is purple (shop).
> I'd therefore suggest that
> it's more in keeping with established practise to use a brown version of
> the toyshop icon (I don't know
> if that's something that the carto stages can do automatically from a
> single icon or if you need to
> generate a brown version).
>
> Also, these icons are rendered at 16x16 pixels on the map and your icon is
> not going to be legible.
>
> And even if I thought your icon were appropriate and suitable, it's the
> wrong colour anyway. :)
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 2:29 PM ChameleonScales <
chameleonsca...@protonmail.com> wrote:

>
> Also I'd like to upload a proposed svg icon but apparently I don't have
> permission to upload media files on the wiki.
>

You haven't made enough edits on the wiki for the automated system to
consider you sufficiently
trustworthy to upload files.

I'd do it for you, but I don't think the icon is suitable.  It is a games
icon.  As you say in another
post, you've decided that "toy library" is more commonly used than "toy and
games library" to
refer to these places, so your icon gives the wrong impression.

I'd also note that the icon for a book library is identical in shape to
that of a bookshop but the
library icon is brown (amenity) and the bookshop icon is purple (shop).
I'd therefore suggest that
it's more in keeping with established practise to use a brown version of
the toyshop icon (I don't know
if that's something that the carto stages can do automatically from a
single icon or if you need to
generate a brown version).

Also, these icons are rendered at 16x16 pixels on the map and your icon is
not going to be legible.

And even if I thought your icon were appropriate and suitable, it's the
wrong colour anyway. :)

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

Also I discussed with a senior toy and game library owner and she says "toy 
library" is better even if it doesn't include "game" because it's a more 
established name.

So how can I change the url of my proposal to toy_library instead of 
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[ChameleonScales]

Yeah actually I'm still working on it.
I'd like them to have tags for whether they can lend or not and what public is 
targeted (children or all ages). When I travel and look for a board game to 
rent I don't want to end up in a child care center with no adult games.

Also I'd like to upload a proposed svg icon but apparently I don't have 
permission to upload media files on the wiki. Can anyone do it?
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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On Mon, October 15, 2018 2:28 pm, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Is there any limit to what can be mapped power=cable ?
> Can micromappers use this tag for wires connecting their
> house to a garage ?

voltage=* is a clear importance filter that offers a simple practical
solution to fears of excessive detail - anything less than 1000 Volts is
low voltage and rendering shall relegate it to accordingly low scales.

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[Joseph Eisenberg]

The proposal for a default:language= tag has been discussed for the past 3
weeks. There have been no new comments this week, and I hope the proposal
is ready for approval. Thank you for all of your ideas and suggestions

Please go to the proposal page and read the discussion on the talk page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format

Then go to the proposal page when you are ready to vote:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format#Voting

Thank you,
-Joseph
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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[marc marc]

Le 15. 10. 18 à 08:25, Gerd Petermann a écrit :
> seems someone has
> fixed a few since my last post:-)  )

yes I took the opportunity of your message to look at the cases
in France and Switzerland.
I corrected about 40 of them, there were:
- real pedestrian crossings but a lot of not connected to the road,
not connected to the sidewalks when they are shown separately.
- the area of a multi-lanes junction mapped as a polygon
- some false path to force routing between a bike path and a road across 
a green strip (somethink like "a cyclist 'll dismount at this location 
to cross the grass and reach the other street to avoid a detour)
- some of them unrelated to all above.

Maybe several ergonomic/preset problems in the editors, but since the 
majority of them were more than a year old, I preferred to correct
them without conducting the inquiry among the various contributors.
The most useful thing seems to watch for new case and discuss
with the contributor as soon as possible when it happend.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Is there any limit to what can be mapped power=cable? Can micromappers use
this tag for wires connecting their house to a garage? Or a wire from their
garage to a string of light bulbs hanging across the back yard?

Should there be a different tag for power wires at the consumer level?

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:20 PM François Lacombe 
wrote:

> Hi Joseph,
>
> Yes, according to you, it's a power cable.
>
> We don't use the same tags: the first got voltage=2000 while the
> second got voltage=220
>
> All the best
>
> *François Lacombe*
>
> fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
> www.infos-reseaux.com
> @InfosReseaux 
>
>
> Le lun. 15 oct. 2018 à 00:05, Joseph Eisenberg 
> a écrit :
>
>> What about the 2 insulated wires that attach my house to the nearest
>> power pole? Are they a power=cable (overhead)?
>>
>> If we use the same tag for huge 10 cm wide cables and tiny 1cm cables, it
>> makes it hard for map renderers to show power cables at all without leading
>> to problems.
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:19 PM François Lacombe <
>> fl.infosrese...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jospeh,
>>>
>>> What a time to discuss about minor_line!
>>>
>>> Basically in power language, a line is not insulated while a cable
>>> actually is.
>>> I won't be in favor to slightly adapt minor_line to include some cables
>>> (even tiny).
>>>
>>> More generally, the concern to show on carto render only what is
>>> relevant or significant regards the voltage here.
>>> An important voltage makes things really bigger while a low one allow to
>>> reduce sizes, including the space between conductors.
>>> This what is exactly implied in minor_line, and what is cluttering power
>>> key values too.
>>>
>>> To solve the problem, carto can filter power=cable on voltage=*, because
>>> we shouldn't introduce power=minor_cable.
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>> Le dim. 14 oct. 2018 à 12:48, Joseph Eisenberg <
>>> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>>>
 The team at Openstreetmap-carto (the "standard" map style) recently
 added rendering for power=cable which are specifically tagged as being
 overground or overhead (on the ground or on poles).

 Most power=cable are high-voltage underground or underwater power
 cables, but some are insulated cables above-ground.

 Now it's can be seen that in some places, eg France, power=cable has
 been used for minor distribution lines (220 volt?) bringing power to
 individual buildings.

 Eg 1. https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/47.95900/6.80918
 2. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/512818816

 Perhaps these should be tagged as power=minor_line, but the wiki says
 these are uninsulated, hence the confusion. And the wiki says "Use
 power=cable for any voltage"!

 Should the wiki page for power=minor_line be changed to mention the
 possibility that these lines may be insulated in some places? Should the
 power=cable page state that this is only intended for higher-voltage lines?

 -Joseph

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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 15.10.2018 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging, which seems clearly wrong 
(kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for ages 0-3). 


I thought the consensus was here that it depends on the country. In Germany, I see mostly the "Kita" 
(Kindertagesstätte) structure which in the same institution enrols age 0-6 in different departments 
or groups, and a lot offer afterschool supervision (Hort).

This is easily expressed with the min_age + max_age tag, and some folks use 
after_school=yes.

tom

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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Lionel Giard]

>
> I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a
>> standard.
>>
>> Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a
>> tourism attractions.
>>
>>
>
>
> following this argument, we would have to tag the national parliaments as
> tourism=parliament because they are quite likely tourism attractions.
>

For tourism=* tag, for me, it is just a method to not tag each artwork with
"tourism=attraction" i would suppose (as they are probably all an
attraction), while a parliament *could *be a tourism=attraction, while
another part of it (or another parliament building) is of no particular
touristic value !

The tourism=attraction is more the general way of tagging a touristic
attraction while, the specific tourism=* values are for things that are all
an attraction !

BTW, another thing potentially using this "tourism=artwork" tag are
statues. They have two existing tagging scheme : one using the
"tourism=artwork + artwork_type=statue" and another using the
"historic=memorial" + "memorial=statue". I understood it as the "memorial
statues" have historic values and was another scheme already, but they can
still be an attraction for tourism ! Nothing is easy ahah :p

3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
> For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging,
> which seems clearly wrong (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these
> tags are for ages 0-3). There is also the suggestion for amenity=childcare,
> which is featured by iD presets, but which doesn't seem like a great idea,
> because it partly overlaps with the much more used amenity=kindergarten,
> and because it has a very generic meaning and can be used for any place
> that looks after "young children" (i.e. also after school places,
> nurseries, kindergartens, places in shops that take care of the kids for a
> few minutes, etc.) and the wiki states it is controversial.
>

For the amenity=creche..., in Belgium, we use the "amenity=childcare" for
an equivalent to "creche/nursery". It is a defined tag on the wiki (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dchildcare ). I think, the
usage still depend on the country. ;-)
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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[François Lacombe]

Hi Joseph,

Yes, according to you, it's a power cable.

We don't use the same tags: the first got voltage=2000 while the
second got voltage=220

All the best

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 


Le lun. 15 oct. 2018 à 00:05, Joseph Eisenberg 
a écrit :

> What about the 2 insulated wires that attach my house to the nearest power
> pole? Are they a power=cable (overhead)?
>
> If we use the same tag for huge 10 cm wide cables and tiny 1cm cables, it
> makes it hard for map renderers to show power cables at all without leading
> to problems.
>
> Joseph
>
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:19 PM François Lacombe <
> fl.infosrese...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jospeh,
>>
>> What a time to discuss about minor_line!
>>
>> Basically in power language, a line is not insulated while a cable
>> actually is.
>> I won't be in favor to slightly adapt minor_line to include some cables
>> (even tiny).
>>
>> More generally, the concern to show on carto render only what is relevant
>> or significant regards the voltage here.
>> An important voltage makes things really bigger while a low one allow to
>> reduce sizes, including the space between conductors.
>> This what is exactly implied in minor_line, and what is cluttering power
>> key values too.
>>
>> To solve the problem, carto can filter power=cable on voltage=*, because
>> we shouldn't introduce power=minor_cable.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> François
>>
>> Le dim. 14 oct. 2018 à 12:48, Joseph Eisenberg <
>> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>>
>>> The team at Openstreetmap-carto (the "standard" map style) recently
>>> added rendering for power=cable which are specifically tagged as being
>>> overground or overhead (on the ground or on poles).
>>>
>>> Most power=cable are high-voltage underground or underwater power
>>> cables, but some are insulated cables above-ground.
>>>
>>> Now it's can be seen that in some places, eg France, power=cable has
>>> been used for minor distribution lines (220 volt?) bringing power to
>>> individual buildings.
>>>
>>> Eg 1. https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/47.95900/6.80918
>>> 2. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/512818816
>>>
>>> Perhaps these should be tagged as power=minor_line, but the wiki says
>>> these are uninsulated, hence the confusion. And the wiki says "Use
>>> power=cable for any voltage"!
>>>
>>> Should the wiki page for power=minor_line be changed to mention the
>>> possibility that these lines may be insulated in some places? Should the
>>> power=cable page state that this is only intended for higher-voltage lines?
>>>
>>> -Joseph
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 12:20 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> 15. Oct 2018 10:57 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:
>
> 1. amenity=artwork
> Yes, tourism=artwork is the established tagging, but it has issues:
> artwork has nothing at all to do with tourism
>
> As I understand you - in your opinion it would be preferable to end with
> amenity=artwork as a
> preferred tagging.
>


yes




>
> I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a
> standard.
>
> Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a
> tourism attractions.
>
>


following this argument, we would have to tag the national parliaments as
tourism=parliament because they are quite likely tourism attractions.




> 2. amenity=car_repair
> For businesses offering car repair, this isn't the right tag (shop is),
> but it doesn't mean there can't be an amenity=car_repair for place where
> you can repair your car.
>
> Feel free to add that deprecation applies to businesses.
>
> Though most of amenity=car_repair would be still businesses offering car
> repair, if you want to tag something like that it would be preferable to
> find a new tag.
>


agree, this was one of the less questionable deprecations.

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Mateusz Konieczny]

15. Oct 2018 10:57 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


> 1. amenity=artwork
> Yes, tourism=artwork is the established tagging, but it has issues: artwork 
> has nothing at all to do with tourism
>



As I understand you - in your opinion it would be preferable to end with 
amenity=artwork as a 
preferred tagging.
I am not sure how it changes that we ended with tourism-artwork as a standard.


Also, "has nothing at all" is not true. Artworks are quite likely to be a 
tourism attractions.


 

> 2. amenity=car_repair
> For businesses offering car repair, this isn't the right tag (shop is), but 
> it doesn't mean there can't be an amenity=car_repair for place where you can 
> repair your car.




Feel free to add that deprecation applies to businesses.

Though most of amenity=car_repair would be still businesses offering car 
repair, if you want to tag

something like that it would be preferable to find a new tag.

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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 12:05 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> 13. Oct 2018 02:49 by chameleonsca...@protonmail.com:
>
> Other than that, is it complete enough to move it from Draft to Proposed?
>
>
> Feel free to do that - there is no real difference between Draft and
> Proposed
>


there is a slight difference in the communication with the others: if a
proposal is a draft I would expect with higher probability that anything
may change at any time, while a "proposed" status suggests that the
definition is less likely to change. It is up to you (the author of the
proposal) to decide which status to assign. "proposed" is usually set after
you asked for comments on this list (RFC).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Game and toy library

[Mateusz Konieczny]

13. Oct 2018 02:49 by chameleonsca...@protonmail.com 
:

> Other than that, is it complete enough to move it from Draft to Proposed?

Feel free to do that - there is no real difference between Draft and Proposed
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[Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I just ran into this summary page for deprecated features:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Deprecated_features

There are a few issues which I would like to discuss:

1. amenity=artwork
Yes, tourism=artwork is the established tagging, but it has issues: artwork
has nothing at all to do with tourism

2. amenity=car_repair
For businesses offering car repair, this isn't the right tag (shop is), but
it doesn't mean there can't be an amenity=car_repair for place where you
can repair your car.

3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative tagging,
which seems clearly wrong (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these
tags are for ages 0-3). There is also the suggestion for amenity=childcare,
which is featured by iD presets, but which doesn't seem like a great idea,
because it partly overlaps with the much more used amenity=kindergarten,
and because it has a very generic meaning and can be used for any place
that looks after "young children" (i.e. also after school places,
nurseries, kindergartens, places in shops that take care of the kids for a
few minutes, etc.) and the wiki states it is controversial.

4. amenity=preschool
The suggested alternative is amenity=kindergarten, but these can be
different things.

5. fenced=yes
The suggestion is for barrier=fence, but that would be a feature, while
"fenced" is an attribute. If you don't want to draw the fence, "fenced" is
clearly the better alternative.

6. man_made=cooling_tower
This is a very clear tag, the suggested alternative is man_made=tower with
tower:type=cooling. I know there is some controversy about tower tagging in
general, but if we recognize man_made=water_tower and power=tower good tags
I don't see a reason to deprecate the more than 1000
man_made=cooling_tower[s] which are more concise and with no semantic
issues or ambiguity.

7. shop=fishmonger
suggested replacement is shop=seafood which doesn't seem a good tag for
places that sell fish but no seafood (i.e. sell fresh water fish).
Admittedly there was few support for this point of view back in 2010.

8. shop=gallery
suggested replacement is shop=art which IMHO is a different kind of
shop/place. An art gallery (the ones where the gallery owner is an
intermediary between the artist and the collectors) is not just a shop
where you go to buy art (these exist as well and usually sell reproductions
of art or things that have been produced in slightly bigger quantities than
just one piece, art books, prints, etc.).

9. shop=glass
suggested replacement: craft=glaziery
These are different things, a craft=glaziery is a "place where residential,
commercial, and artistic glass is selected, cut, installed, replaced, and
removed". A shop=glass is a shop were objects made of glass are sold. E.g.
svarowsky, murano glass, etc.
Btw.: "glaziery" follows a different logic than most of the craft tags
("glazier" would be the usual value). There is also shop=glaziery which has
only slightly fewer usage than craft=glaziery and which should probably be
deprecated.

10. tourism=bed_and_breakfast
The suggested alternative is
"tourism=guest_house+guest_house=bed_and_breakfast"
Every time a deprecated tag should be replaced by a tag which is so
unspecific that people have seen to need to add subtags in order to express
what it is (on the same level of specificity as the tag that should be
deprecated), there is some problem. People know what is a bed and
breakfast, the tag it in the hundreds and thousands despite it being
discouraged and flagged as deprecated. Wouldn't it be easier to accept
tourism=bed_and_breakfast, or are there other issues with this tag?

Please let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 11. Okt. 2018 um 21:21 Uhr schrieb Mark Wagner <
mark+...@carnildo.com>:

>  There are no "more knowledgeable mappers" in my area.  I
> am the only person in an area the size of the United Kingdom to make a
> concentrated effort at mapping business: if I don't map it, it won't
> get mapped for years, if ever.




hopefully you will be joined by other mappers, because it is crystal clear
one person won't be able to map a territory the size of the UK ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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