Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Evacuation Route
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/07/2017 10:53 PM, Nick Hocking wrote: > Will this proposal contain alternate evacuation routes, and an > indication by whom and when they would be activated? If the state/local authorities have designated a route as an evacuation route then I don't see why the route wouldn't be put into OSM. Generally speaking, an evacuation route isn't the *only* way out of a location but, rather, is the recommended way out that avoids hazards (flooding, etc) and is usually a large thoroughfare, so it's not imperative that there be a "when" assigned to a route. With respect to Google, I think they are using their traffic load monitoring to try to divert traffic from one route to the other to help balance the load. This is one feature I wish our tools (maps.me, OSMAND, etc) had. - --Eric -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERiNfHJ4f0jHRHow5g9FPLsqcWWwFAlmykmsACgkQg9FPLsqc WWzrEAf/cXcGC3ti0VA9dg8oOHPEqtlysFoEzRi8YSjuyMsK5OJDo/ynZ+fIyvTj Ewqs5vbpxR2woqAHf5RXXQwPU7wL5sgIkRpDKvcr88xAk8q48XE1cmlqi9zi/rBg 1SOn7BATM32+QdysYm59U5G23n+StgTthYJYH0b6A6QWf7DjlhIur2ImVoWdhXU5 5HHA7vZMHUinFpGpuTUFj5FJbyx+q4M9omuhM/nbebUZBnmJJh3oYPUrdFR03xIa e9v59zv4bmVVJ2mwlL1XyrwbzNqC6/0YkiJh+ImREcYzc1L4OrDGap8Ppw0ym443 QtZCgv8SIu4ZIe064XxgF3j3xNH7+Q== =wxiZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Evacuation Route
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/08/2017 05:05 AM, Lukas Sommer wrote: > As key:evacuation_route is currently almost exclusively used on > relations anyway, it might make more sense to deprecate this tag and > instead define a new value for route=* on type=route relations (and > than add all the refinements that you propose)… Dang, yes. Sorry, what you just said reminded me of what I had thought many months ago. With a route you can make them directional which is important. I'll make those changes today. - --Eric -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERiNfHJ4f0jHRHow5g9FPLsqcWWwFAlmyi+kACgkQg9FPLsqc WWzaywf/bdJUSXbLeBuU44N+HcRquhQj/LxV9Vg5ISUh4YzULOCvhL7w1Toq8ESo Gw6Y+pqrsFkyor5td2vjHokwDm9raV3ozMo3KG8DQGgk0DBuHhwFP5NUmlen394t VQl7t+ICIxkjH0H3fh+rN1YNrddwC5c8vmTiwiLSgcEHy0+hzhX42prRSY/kK6yW SPvTrTDis2rBAi2E1Xm20CWE86GkQbJL8t72h83yUmGNko4z4crC4oP1A04gHNi7 2/mXd0Jr6HmJF7x1McCEuV57NAvDQbyPTCL8ATqS0HzVZFujyx4+qfCImmAXJqFj fLnFMpJ9m4tEKmFE9mo0hF/xoA7iYg== =D5si -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/07/2017 11:24 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > do you recall why emergency:social_facility=shelter was chosen as a tag, > rather than a simple "emergency=shelter"? Because social_facility > shelter in osm is used with a different meaning, so it seems quite odd. I thought it was an odd choice, as well, but once I thought about it, it sort of made sense. The definition of a social_facility is "a feature that provides a social service."[0] If you go further down, a social_facility=shelter is defined as "[a] facility that provides temporary sleeping facilities or refuge from exposure to the environment." Isn't that what an emergency shelter is doing? - --Eric [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERiNfHJ4f0jHRHow5g9FPLsqcWWwFAlmyijQACgkQg9FPLsqc WWzEFAf9HwFyDb1DSjG8H5scptcqJbdImqJRep/nq5mNefLK1qNDSQlzfz4SWnP8 Ph5Khh4DB9jogriPFDy+KvUI/owdQk10o5TFGZn1bIMuMREjQ11pytqc1jIFFIUJ 9NvSKQICxYzTF2jnFYxaiS4DbBNrjXf2NoC65pEAGasvO8TqquRVwHx28Q+cXd9r hxb7OXlAC+1BtBps/3eU7XDRtTXiEaAckfL7k/WBLAEzfB6yAid4d/5GJaV8WHuJ yzw1a6FRsums1TNcgxl4BDk4J9b8REeY+Vy3d8umXYTImhmGYiR6VdNeMcEe8YUe NvswvATd92WyervXq/yRwmBwEjo38w== =SAEj -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/07/2017 11:12 PM, Nick Hocking wrote: > Eric wrote "Why would you delete data that is still valid and > useful?" > > > My concern is that if these are permanent features, then people > will say "ooh - they'll be the same as last time" and of course > they probably won't be the same as last time and we may route > people to a wrong place, with possible tragic results. I would say that shelters probably would be the same as last year. It's very difficult to find structures that meet the criteria for being shelters in the first place so thinking that you're going to play a shell game with them really isn't going to happen. The shelters that I used to deal with are still shelters today some fifteen years later and they were shelters for at least a decade when I came into the job. > I agree that this information should be left in place, but marked > , unusable, until specifically activated by authorities, which I > agree should be well ahead of time, so long as people know that > they will not be usable until a state of emergency is declared. I believe that's a given being that it's an emergency shelter. That said, I think we can use the 'note' key to make some sort of declaration to that extent as I suspect there are some public tornado shelters in the Midwest (US) that are available 24/7 whereas out here on the east coast many hurricane shelters are stood up on an as-needed basis. > I also think that this information should NOT be edited, in any way > by anyone other than the authorities. This brings back the old > arguments about read only data in OSM. One could make the same argument about roads or any other data. This is an open database and we all "garden" the data to make sure that the information is correct. Google has a closed database and it's a pain for an "authoritative source" to get their one-off information into it. To go down the route of creating authoritative sources would require way too much work to establish relationships with a lot of agencies that likely do not wish to participate in the first place. Further, we'd have to establish a trust relationship with them to be able to authenticate them as the authenticated source. Who is to say that they would even maintain the data? To me, the crowd is a much better source and so far we've been doing pretty well. - --Eric -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERiNfHJ4f0jHRHow5g9FPLsqcWWwFAlmyiKwACgkQg9FPLsqc WWzFrAf/WO1itSXeACgYb/0V9yQ99FSTS9CCPO8juxScNNCKkDnYuSmZFKMG1WIV tsIf9Ap6vHX9yrpeOwbPsc16+DyhLkDwylQQKtuQH2zsEC42E1PwVtcNTO65GU8k XwpDXcDNeX8m2hzDghjmENd/c2G4fCfSdlZhtA0cfEIDdbjYUF1OwdChGvaBiS2T 64TmUOy4O8snRQMkt+9ZYIrOMoL83UXapHMknLRezRADitbjs0LOJiAbgw7lN6ya nfrxmkp8u7m2Z9RwL1enfAIxj02Ys6i162qMNitrdPjqgjQK9N9MIuCwUvE8eVtQ xukBHCmgS5lcEh1rWx0tYdRU5L7lRA== =3qCe -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/07/2017 04:08 AM, Nick Hocking wrote: > The list of emergency centers would be very much dependent on where > the threat is and what the nature of the threat is. As a former emergency management planner I'll go on the record as saying... kinda. Generally speaking, most emergency plans (and, by extension, emergency resources) are considered all-hazards in nature. > Therefore I see these as being loaded (by the relevant authorities) > only when a state of emergency is declared and only for the areas > affected. Emergency managers generally make this information publicly available well in advance of any emergency so people can make proper plans to get to their shelter or to obtain emergency resources. There really isn't time to start making declarations, uploading data, and hoping people will be able to get rendered data when a tsunami or tornado is on the way. > These locations would therefore be available (on OSM) online, > immediately, and available for download shortly after. Since the > areas are relatively small the downloads would not be a big issue. Define "small". Right now you have Hurricane Irma taking aim at the states of Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina. This is not including the surrounding states that would also be taking in evacuees. This storm, larger than the state of Ohio, is going to do some damage on a very large swath of land (and already has to quite a few islands!). > Once the state of emergency is rescinded, the data could be > deleted. Why would you delete data that is still valid and useful? Shelters take months to identify, work up agreements with building owners and who will actually manage the shelter, determine how to supply the shelter with supplies, how to staff the shelter, and many other things. One doesn't just show up to a building and declare it a shelter nor does one just remove a shelter from a list after a disaster (unless it's been shown to have been ineffective). These are well thought out, planned for, and exercised resources. > Since these tags would only be used by the authorities, I believe > that they should be unique to them. I don't even understand this statement. I'm a proponent of putting emergency information onto the map so people have this information with them at all times. No matter where in the world you are you should be able to obtain information about finding shelter, evacuation routes, water, supplies, and information. Some of this information will be dynamic but much of this information is permanent. The dynamic resources will be made available via permanent information resources so documenting those will help fill the gaps. - --Eric -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERiNfHJ4f0jHRHow5g9FPLsqcWWwFAlmxsBAACgkQg9FPLsqc WWzg4wf+IpcJ2JgxfZtMZMRggdYFj11q4JbYl5mPxyU96JJBGn9qjG7gvGX0JCV4 uYByJv5RUwiKrURdlxXOUw7lf/cJQGnljFVOaSZ+eVDy8WqRnMwcTVnoxZlMpVIF 1H1XhkW2Qe/4+AYNr0a1mIQPHmqNx+kCn/nBw2ZklzuWW/tpsZma4GJqtTlw/yE0 3YF7IbUn5odhRy7O7ptrFqmU8EU9k0e6ufntWehIt6jCgkVcYItgCWuRGbyuwxJj uEhBuLyI8vhn8khSZ+UEQEaoJJcwYZCS33IGU8vgkV7pkWJsoivnA2uXgu1Sdz8p V7S6BZc0fcDeDawEoQqSFvN5nvBzOg== =tLiF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Evacuation Route
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Evacuation_routes Emergency evacuation routes, with direction, for various types of emergencies. Thanks, Eric "Sparks" -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERiNfHJ4f0jHRHow5g9FPLsqcWWwFAlmxXAQACgkQg9FPLsqc WWxKnggAgJyp03FRt4xl7Q8TOVyiI+pS9w02plPCzVIIvyjgTAfLPs7VGpvJEaDD 61KhI+2JbRj2hLstoFGCDDFzbkUkB/fUNrDSma3UcV+9zfv6Y9dcROQafdHL64DE jWSPY9CNEhPhEXhzLHifA4BQf2xOX+DjkqdUm0PJatbUXckwgwlq7jCOfQdjmrIw w3RC0HarbRV3qC/nv77QzrfjK2QcIbr9IuY690I1EKQC7p6CjOki3IVkh7SPmrNx DCm5/KAMsklUhqwlGQjp6MpcRcsj4DQYa99kkZp3xie9FWWMdUpIlUL0QjRW8OW3 MAmfzT584H8uKsLB9Cr1UqapTk21lw== =Lwpi -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fire hydrants vs suction_point
On 08/17/2017 10:47 AM, Viking wrote: > In the case of commercial/industrial local water networks fed by pumps, we > all agree to use emergency=fire_hydrant. Because externally (at least here in > Italy) they are not distinguishable from hydrants fed by public mains and > they have the same usage. +1 > For the tag emergency=dry_hydrant, at this point I wouldn't introduce it, > because we already have emergency=suction_point that covers a wider range of > cases, as Moritz says. +1 > Productivity can become flow_capacity, as it is for fire_hydrants. +1 --Eric ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fire hydrants vs suction_point
On 08/17/2017 10:12 AM, marc marc wrote: > Hello, > > Le 17. 08. 17 à 14:50, Moritz a écrit : >> the hydrant (by the meaning of the word) is something connected >> to the water main ;) > If I read the previous wikipedia link, there are pressurized hydrant and > not-pressurized hydrant. > If wikipedia use the word hydrant for both, maybe the "by the meaning of > the world" is that. > A common tag for both + a subtag for pressurized or not isn't enough ? > Or you like 2 tag for render and/or to avoid the need to check subtag ? > > When I'm walking on a street and find "something that give water to be > used against fire" and I read "2 bars" on it, I have no way if it's > connected to a pressurized network or if it's a tank with a pump in it. > I didn't even know it existed before reading it in this discussion. That's not really what's being discussed here. A non-pressurized hydrant wouldn't be attached to a tank at all. It would require a fire engine to suck the water out. It does not look like a traditional fire hydrant at all. Many of the ones I'm used to look like this: http://www.dof.virginia.gov/fire/dryhydrant/index.htm There is no confusing this with a pressurized hydrant. --Eric ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fire hydrants vs suction_point
On 08/17/2017 08:50 AM, Moritz wrote: > But "dry" hydrants are always connected to other water sources like > ponds, wells, water_tanks. > They are not isolated things on the field. So you have the "dry" hydrant > which is next to a pond/lake/etc. and > connected to it. A dry hydrant is just a convenient drafting point for getting water in rural areas. Where I used to work as a firefighter we had designated water sources that we could use to supply tankers in the event of a fire. Many times it would be dangerous to get too close to the edge of a pond with the fire engine or would require more suction hose to reach to water than we would usually carry on the engine. In those areas we would install these dry hydrants. Hook up to them with a short piece of hard suction hose, pull a draft, and flow water. I would suggest marking designated water sources as that: water sources. If they have a dry hydrant then all the better and that should be mapped to make it easier to locate (especially at night). But dry hydrant or not, a pond, lake, canal, etc, that is suitable for fire water source operations should be mapped as such. Of course such ponds, lakes, canals, should be designated by the local authority. --Eric ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Evacuation Routes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Greetings from Maryland (USA), Here in the USA we're getting prepared for our Hurricane Season[0]. I worked for ten years in the disaster preparedness world and did a lot to help people prepare for the inevitable. With that said, I'd like to make a recommended change to the 'evacuation_route' key[1] in hopes of making it more useful without, hopefully, making it too complicated for the cartographers out there. The current tagging system is likely not being rendered by any software out there and seems to be a one-off. To me this *should* be a type of route which would show direction and, perhaps, the type of emergency when this route would be active. This type of tagging shouldn't be specific to the USA and should be generic enough to be globally used. On the rendering side of things, I could see a switch being toggled that would gray out everything but emergency routes, emergency resources (shelters, food, water, etc), and other resources that could be turned on individually. One could even store evacuation points and meeting locations on these maps making it much easier for someone to navigate during an emergency. Currently there are less then 5,000 implementation globally. Thoughts? Thanks, Eric "Sparks" [0] https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/emergencies/natural-disast ers/HurricaneSeason.html [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:evacuation_route -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJZEUB0AAoJEIPRTy7KnFlsNjAH/1tdw4P27VDD7EcWomPBXfPc 2vXaJhEb+/dv2T3WK2BwuO/145Br6ZA7bF5qN2sN1UZTbnHZ3US1xeW33Kd3Lxz4 iOrIL87/aAlFCSxILC2pTstydjr53F7heYliGCQSY76K8kOQvtiprYN7n/+VEQa3 rGFmLkvIQMeXdzvYbx7vnucNtGDiUc5c6YP76mbHM7JqZp2H/hU0bQng1HlnZSa5 vF7EyMDcGTQAYpHlNk+oqHBR38olfEAH6DEfnNueNQnkhR+GcZ60MBzNxCZxG8gX i4yKUHvDHButdrtPA/G3dhRd7Ucs0Bn6MakRhJ5pvjg12uCq7+SLzRc/9s1gQgQ= =eTET -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
