Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Mateusz Konieczny]

1 Jun 2019, 11:05 by marc_marc_...@hotmail.com:

> Le 01.06.19 à 08:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
>
>> It's not much use knowing that there's one in the museum, 
>> if you then have no idea where!
>>
>
> EDIT: fix a wrong word
>
> in some places it is still very useful information to know that a POI 
> has an changing table, it will be enough to ask it for its location.
> it is always much more practical than asking the 20 poi of the place
> to find the only poi with an adapted infrastructure
>
Or it can be used as one of criteria in search for only child-friendly 
locations.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[marc marc]

Le 01.06.19 à 08:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
> It's not much use knowing that there's one in the museum, 
> if you then have no idea where!

EDIT: fix a wrong word

in some places it is still very useful information to know that a POI 
has an changing table, it will be enough to ask it for its location.
it is always much more practical than asking the 20 poi of the place
to find the only poi with an adapted infrastructure
the proposal is perfect at this level: you can inform its existence on 
the object of the museum if you do not have enough precise information, 
or you can inform the information on the object of the toilets or on an 
indoor=room if you know how to represent it in a valid way
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[marc marc]

Le 01.06.19 à 08:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
> It's not much use knowing that there's one in the museum, 
> if you then have no idea where!

in some places it is still very useful information to know that a POI 
has an establishment, it will be enough to ask it for its location.
it is always much more practical than making the 20 poi of the place to 
find the only poi with an adapted infrastructure
the proposal is perfect at this level: you can inform its existence on 
the object of the museum if you do not have enough precise information, 
or you can inform the information on the object of the toilets or on an 
indoor=room if you know how to represent it in a valid way
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Jun 2019, at 08:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> I thought that the idea was that this tag would show where the changing room 
> (room with the change table) is?
> 
> It's not much use knowing that there's one in the museum, if you then have no 
> idea where!


there may be smaller objects which can have a changing table, e.g. a bathroom 
inside the museum. 
If we were to tag individual changing tables, the tag would look different, 
e.g. amenity=changing_table
(we could also do both, but the current proposal is about a property, not a 
feature)


Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 25 May 2019 at 18:59, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> we are not going to tag the changing table itself with this tag, rather we
> will be tagging that a feature (like a restaurant, a shop, a museum, a
> bathroom or a cafe) provides a changing table.
>

I thought that the idea was that this tag would show where the changing
room (room with the change table) is?

It's not much use knowing that there's one in the museum, if you then have
no idea where!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[althio]

Hi tagging, hi Warin,

Sorry to interrupt, but I disagree at this point.
* * *
TL;DR:
changing_table: "A tag for tagging changing tables"
was indeed bad.

changing_table: "provides a surface for changing the nappy (diaper) of
an infant or young child"
is just right (explains that "table" can be a "generic surface", that
"changing" refers to "changing babies".

"changing the nappy (diaper)" is well-suited in a description, no need
to define what "change a diaper" means
* * *

We should aim for '*self-explanatory* *description*', the gold
standard being duck tagging.
We can have a lot of self-referencing, which means the key-value is
well suited to describe the object, with a short and clear text as
much as possible.
On the other side I think we should avoid long, complicated sentences,
or escaping terms (circumlocution)
a few examples:
amenity = hospital: A hospital providing in-patient medical treatment
amenity = school: A primary or secondary school (pupils typically aged 6 to 18)
wikipedia = *: Provides a link to Wikipedia's article about the feature
religion = *: Defines the specific religion

I completely disagree we should have '*definition*' and avoid
'*self-referencing*'.
OSM wiki is a documentation with *description* and use of tags,
but it is not a dictionary for *definition* of terms.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 27/05/19 20:27, Valor Naram wrote:
Did it, see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table



 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self 
referencing description

From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:




sent from a phone

> On 27. May 2019, at 04:42, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Almost agree :)
>
> "A surface for replacing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or
young child"
>
> Might remove the "young child" for brevity?
>
> Martin?


I agree with Joseph‘s wife, as it is about a property. Young child
could be removed, typically children get rid of their nappies at
around 1,5-3 years, this is perfectly covered by „baby“



Still self referencing...


changing_table definition= "provides a surface for changing the nappy 
(diaper) of an infant or young child"


changing appears on both sides - therefore self referencing.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Valor Naram]

Did it, see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: sent from a phone> On 27. May 2019, at 04:42, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:> > Almost agree :)> > "A surface for replacing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or young child"> > Might remove the "young child" for brevity?> > Martin?I agree with Joseph‘s wife, as it is about a property. Young child could be removed, typically children get rid of their nappies at around 1,5-3 years, this is perfectly covered by „baby“Cheers, Martin ___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27. May 2019, at 04:42, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Almost agree :)
> 
> "A surface for replacing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or young child"
> 
> Might remove the "young child" for brevity?
> 
> Martin?


I agree with Joseph‘s wife, as it is about a property. Young child could be 
removed, typically children get rid of their nappies at around 1,5-3 years, 
this is perfectly covered by „baby“

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 27/05/19 12:02, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

I agree that the subject is missing (I'm a native American English speaker).

My wife suggests:

"provides a surface for changing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or young child"


Almost agree :)

"A surface for replacing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or young child"

Might remove the "young child" for brevity?

Martin?



On 5/27/19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 26/05/19 19:54, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Am So., 26. Mai 2019 um 02:08 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>:

 Could become "Provides for replacing the nappy/diaper of very
 young children."



I am not a native speaker, to me this sentence looks as if a subject
was missing?

Is it tagging a physical object or the provision for an activity???
I think the 'subject' is 'replacing' in this case.




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I agree that the subject is missing (I'm a native American English speaker).

My wife suggests:

"provides a surface for changing the nappy (diaper) of an infant or young child"

On 5/27/19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 26/05/19 19:54, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Am So., 26. Mai 2019 um 02:08 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>> >:
>>
>> Could become "Provides for replacing the nappy/diaper of very
>> young children."
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not a native speaker, to me this sentence looks as if a subject
>> was missing?
>
> Is it tagging a physical object or the provision for an activity???
> I think the 'subject' is 'replacing' in this case.
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 26/05/19 19:54, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Am So., 26. Mai 2019 um 02:08 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>:


Could become "Provides for replacing the nappy/diaper of very
young children."



I am not a native speaker, to me this sentence looks as if a subject 
was missing?


Is it tagging a physical object or the provision for an activity???
I think the 'subject' is 'replacing' in this case.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am So., 26. Mai 2019 um 02:08 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> Could become "Provides for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young
> children."



I am not a native speaker, to me this sentence looks as if a subject was
missing?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 25/05/19 18:58, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 25. May 2019, at 09:35, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Key:baby_changing_table Definition: Provides a place for changing the 
nappy/diaper of babies or young children.

Pedantic hat on.

Self references:
babies ... plural  of baby
changing - repeated


the proposed key is changing_table not baby changing table, no self reference


Arr reference the wrong page ... my error. (Told you so :) )

Correct page is 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table






'Provides' not needed.
--- What I would do?
Delete Provides.
Change 'changing' to 'replacing'
delete 'babies' and add description to young children of 'very'



actually “provides” is needed here: we are not going to tag the changing table 
itself with this tag, rather we will be tagging that a feature (like a 
restaurant, a shop, a museum, a bathroom or a cafe) provides a changing table.


Then it does not need 'a place' ...

"A place for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young children."

Could become "Provides for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young children."

Chose one or the other but not both?




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. May 2019, at 09:35, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Key:baby_changing_table Definition: Provides a place for changing the 
> nappy/diaper of babies or young children.
> 
> Pedantic hat on.
> 
> Self references:
> babies ... plural  of baby
> changing - repeated


the proposed key is changing_table not baby changing table, no self reference 



> 
> 'Provides' not needed.
> --- What I would do?
> Delete Provides.
> Change 'changing' to 'replacing'
> delete 'babies' and add description to young children of 'very'



actually “provides” is needed here: we are not going to tag the changing table 
itself with this tag, rather we will be tagging that a feature (like a 
restaurant, a shop, a museum, a bathroom or a cafe) provides a changing table. 

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 25/05/19 17:46, Valor Naram wrote:

Did it

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

"A place for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young children."


Too quick .. wait, say, a day and see if there are any other thoughts... 
I can be wrong!



 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self 
referencing description

From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
CC:


On 25/05/19 17:15, Valor Naram wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> something else that needs to be discussed/improved before
starting the
> second voting?
>


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table


Key:baby_changing_table Definition: Provides a place for changing the
nappy/diaper of babies or young children.

Pedantic hat on.

Self references:
babies ... plural  of baby
changing - repeated

'Provides' not needed.
--- What I would do?
Delete Provides.
Change 'changing' to 'replacing'
delete 'babies' and add description to young children of 'very'


Key:baby_changing_table Definition: A place for replacing the
nappy/diaper of very young children. ???



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Valor Naram]

Did ithttps://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table"A place for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young children." Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: On 25/05/19 17:15, Valor Naram wrote:> Hey all,>> something else that needs to be discussed/improved before starting the > second voting?>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_tableKey:baby_changing_table Definition: Provides a place for changing the nappy/diaper of babies or young children.Pedantic hat on.Self references:babies ... plural  of babychanging - repeated'Provides' not needed.--- What I would do?Delete Provides.Change 'changing' to 'replacing'delete 'babies' and add description to young children of 'very'Key:baby_changing_table Definition: A place for replacing the nappy/diaper of very young children. ???___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 25/05/19 17:15, Valor Naram wrote:

Hey all,

something else that needs to be discussed/improved before starting the 
second voting?





https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table


Key:baby_changing_table Definition: Provides a place for changing the 
nappy/diaper of babies or young children.


Pedantic hat on.

Self references:
babies ... plural  of baby
changing - repeated

'Provides' not needed.
--- What I would do?
Delete Provides.
Change 'changing' to 'replacing'
delete 'babies' and add description to young children of 'very'


Key:baby_changing_table Definition: A place for replacing the 
nappy/diaper of very young children. ???




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Valor Naram]

Hey all,something else that needs to be discussed/improved before starting the second voting?CheerioSören alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: Valor Naram To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Ok. Changed itSee https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Am Do., 23. Mai 2019 um 10:52 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram <valin...@gmx.net>:I have changed the description for the proposal at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table as suggested.current description reads: "Provides the infrastructure for changing the nappy/diaper of babies or young children"I think this is too inclusive, to me it would suggest that everything that is needed will be provided (like in the german drugstore example, they provide tissue, nappies, a sheet of paper underneath, disinfectant for the parents). What should be described is the minimum. IMHO this is a horizontal surface suitable to change a baby, i.e. sufficient light should be provided, wind should be shielded, possibility to wash your hands would make perfectly sense but is not always available). If this is a property, the description could be as simple as "provides a place to change a baby's nappy".Cheers,Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Valor Naram]

Ok. Changed itSee https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Am Do., 23. Mai 2019 um 10:52 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram <valin...@gmx.net>:I have changed the description for the proposal at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table as suggested.current description reads: "Provides the infrastructure for changing the nappy/diaper of babies or young children"I think this is too inclusive, to me it would suggest that everything that is needed will be provided (like in the german drugstore example, they provide tissue, nappies, a sheet of paper underneath, disinfectant for the parents). What should be described is the minimum. IMHO this is a horizontal surface suitable to change a baby, i.e. sufficient light should be provided, wind should be shielded, possibility to wash your hands would make perfectly sense but is not always available). If this is a property, the description could be as simple as "provides a place to change a baby's nappy".Cheers,Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 23. Mai 2019 um 10:52 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram :

> I have changed the description for the proposal at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table as
> suggested.



current description reads: "Provides the infrastructure for changing the
nappy/diaper of babies or young children"

I think this is too inclusive, to me it would suggest that everything that
is needed will be provided (like in the german drugstore example, they
provide tissue, nappies, a sheet of paper underneath, disinfectant for the
parents). What should be described is the minimum. IMHO this is a
horizontal surface suitable to change a baby, i.e. sufficient light should
be provided, wind should be shielded, possibility to wash your hands would
make perfectly sense but is not always available). If this is a property,
the description could be as simple as "provides a place to change a baby's
nappy".

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

On 23/05/19 18:51, Valor Naram wrote:
I have changed the description for the proposal at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table 
as suggested.



 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self 
referencing description

From: marc marc
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
CC:


Le 23.05.19 à 01:03, Warin a écrit :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table
> 'self referencing description'
> So what is a better description for OSM use?
> "an aid to replacing human, usually babies, nappies/diaper"

someone in the profession pointed out that there is no adult table,
even in a specialized environment, I don't see the point
in keeping a confusion in the description.

proposal:
an infrastructure adapted to change nappies/diapers for babies
or young children



It may not be 'adapted' but purpose built.

Possibly ?
"provision to replace nappies/diapers for babies or young children" 

This removes;
 the self reference to "change"

the reference to a physical object of "infrastructure"
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Valor Naram]

I have changed the description for the proposal at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table as suggested. Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing descriptionFrom: marc marc To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: Le 23.05.19 à 01:03, Warin a écrit :> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table> 'self referencing description'> So what is a better description for OSM use?> "an aid to replacing human, usually babies, nappies/diaper"someone in the profession pointed out that there is no adult table,even in a specialized environment, I don't see the pointin keeping a confusion in the description.proposal:an infrastructure adapted to change nappies/diapers for babiesor young children___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[marc marc]

Le 23.05.19 à 01:03, Warin a écrit :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table
> 'self referencing description'
> So what is a better description for OSM use?
> "an aid to replacing human, usually babies, nappies/diaper"

someone in the profession pointed out that there is no adult table,
even in a specialized environment, I don't see the point
in keeping a confusion in the description.

proposal:
an infrastructure adapted to change nappies/diapers for babies
or young children
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table - self referencing description

[Warin]

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

The present definition for the tag 'changing_table' is "A tag for 
tagging changing tables".



This is a 'self referencing description'. One way of 
testing/demonstrating this is to remove any words in the description 
that are present in the source.


This would make the description "A for " ... and that demonstrates the 
failing of a self referencing description, they add no real information 
to aid a person who does not know what is mean by the tag 'changing_table'.


-

So what is a better description for OSM use? The tag is to be used to 
indicate the presence of an aid to replacing babies nappies, so start 
with that in a broad sense?


"an aid to replacing clothing"

That could be applied to dolls, animals etc .. so make it for humans, 
usually babies?



"an aid to replacing human, usually babies, clothing"

Clothing might be too general, so reduce it to nappies/diaper?


"an aid to replacing human, usually babies, nappies/diaper"








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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[marc marc]

thanks, it look like fine.

Le 22.05.19 à 14:44, Valor Naram a écrit :
> I corrected the language issue and also moved the text in the "Tagging" 
> section to the "Rationale" section as suggested by Marc
> 
> Thank you both
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Sören alias Valor Naram
> 
> 
> ---- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
> From: Michael Brandtner via Tagging
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> CC: Michael Brandtner
> 
> 
> I think that this is a language issue and the hallway (German
> "Flur") is meant, not the floor.
> 
> Am Dienstag, 21. Mai 2019, 03:11:32 MESZ hat marc marc
>  Folgendes geschrieben:
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
>  > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table
> 
> questions / minor suggestions :
> 
> in changing_table:location=room what's the usecase of :
> "or the floor to the toilets" ? maybe just drop it.
> if someone wants to put their child on the floor, I don't see how
> we could describe that this floor is adapted but not this other one
> 
> the first sentence of the tagging paragraph is about the rational (why
> some other existing tag doesn't fit the need),
> drop or move it to the rational paragraph
> 
> Regards,
> Marc
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Valor Naram]

Yes, right. Sry for this. I learnt that "floor" means "Flur" in german language. Seems to be incorrect. Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing tableFrom: Michael Brandtner via Tagging To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: Michael Brandtner 
I think that this is a language issue and the hallway (German "Flur") is meant, not the floor.





Am Dienstag, 21. Mai 2019, 03:11:32 MESZ hat marc marc  Folgendes geschrieben:



Hello, > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_tablequestions / minor suggestions :in changing_table:location=room what's the usecase of :"or the floor to the toilets" ? maybe just drop it.if someone wants to put their child on the floor, I don't see howwe could describe that this floor is adapted but not this other onethe first sentence of the tagging paragraph is about the rational (why some other existing tag doesn't fit the need),drop or move it to the rational paragraphRegards,Marc___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Michael Brandtner via Tagging]

 I think that this is a language issue and the hallway (German "Flur") is 
meant, not the floor.

Am Dienstag, 21. Mai 2019, 03:11:32 MESZ hat marc marc 
 Folgendes geschrieben:  
 
 Hello,

 > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

questions / minor suggestions :

in changing_table:location=room what's the usecase of :
"or the floor to the toilets" ? maybe just drop it.
if someone wants to put their child on the floor, I don't see how
we could describe that this floor is adapted but not this other one

the first sentence of the tagging paragraph is about the rational (why 
some other existing tag doesn't fit the need),
drop or move it to the rational paragraph

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[marc marc]

Hello,

 > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

questions / minor suggestions :

in changing_table:location=room what's the usecase of :
"or the floor to the toilets" ? maybe just drop it.
if someone wants to put their child on the floor, I don't see how
we could describe that this floor is adapted but not this other one

the first sentence of the tagging paragraph is about the rational (why 
some other existing tag doesn't fit the need),
drop or move it to the rational paragraph

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Warin]

On 20/05/19 22:20, Valor Naram wrote:

then it's a property


Yes.

The tag highway=residential says that is a road here,  a physical presence.

The tag surface=grass says that whatever is here has a grass surface, 
but does not say what the physical presence is.


If there is a thing tagged with both highway=residential and 
surface=grass then it says there is a road with a grass surface.


For change tables they would commonly be combined with toilets, possibly 
other things too like libraries, community halls, camp sites etc.


So the description of surface does not say what the physical presence 
is, nor should change table. For change table it is the provision of the 
activity.





 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:



Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 12:36 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram
mailto:valin...@gmx.net>>:

> [...] so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely
become a property (only) as well
Ok. Does it matter? From what I understood so far most wiki
pages describe `properties` e.g.: Key `highway`



the difference of a feature and a property is that a property
cannot be tagged alone, it requires a feature (e.g. "surface", or
"oneway", or "height"). On the other hand, a feature is defining a
"thing", e.g. a highway defined through the tag "highway". It is
not a property, but a feature (and the values are different
"classes" of this feature).

OSM does actually not explicitly make this distinction (AFAIK),
but it is implicit in how people are using the tags.

Cheers,
Martin



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Valor Naram]

then it's a property Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing tableFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 12:36 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram :> [...] so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely become a property (only) as wellOk. Does it matter? From what I understood so far most wiki pages describe `properties` e.g.: Key `highway`the difference of a feature and a property is that a property cannot be tagged alone, it requires a feature (e.g. "surface", or "oneway", or "height"). On the other hand, a feature is defining a "thing", e.g. a highway defined through the tag "highway". It is not a property, but a feature (and the values are different "classes" of this feature).OSM does actually not explicitly make this distinction (AFAIK), but it is implicit in how people are using the tags.Cheers,Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 12:36 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram :

> > [...] so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely become a
> property (only) as well
> Ok. Does it matter? From what I understood so far most wiki pages describe
> `properties` e.g.: Key `highway`



the difference of a feature and a property is that a property cannot be
tagged alone, it requires a feature (e.g. "surface", or "oneway", or
"height"). On the other hand, a feature is defining a "thing", e.g. a
highway defined through the tag "highway". It is not a property, but a
feature (and the values are different "classes" of this feature).

OSM does actually not explicitly make this distinction (AFAIK), but it is
implicit in how people are using the tags.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Valor Naram]

> [...] so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely become a property (only) as wellOk. Does it matter? From what I understood so far most wiki pages describe `properties` e.g.: Key `highway`CheerioValor Naram alias Sören Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing tableFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 11:00 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram :> From what I understand, the tag seems to be intended as a property only (requires a "feature" to add to), right?It intends to deprecate the diaper key which is currently used for tagging changing tables. To be precise, the page first pretends to be either tagging "changing tables" or "separated rooms" (I guess it should be "separate rooms"?), but the way the tag is structured it is the presence of a changing table that is tagged, not the table itself. Then the diaper key is defined as a property ("in combination with..."), so if you intend to replace this, yours would likely become a property (only) as well"A key for diaper changing tables
 or separated rooms (sometimes known as a parents room) include a 
nappy/diaper changing table; in combination with toilets, shops, 
restaurants, service areas or something like that."Cheers,Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 11:00 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram :

> > From what I understand, the tag seems to be intended as a property only
> (requires a "feature" to add to), right?
>
> It intends to deprecate the diaper key which is currently used for tagging
> changing tables.



To be precise, the page first pretends to be either tagging "changing
tables" or "separated rooms" (I guess it should be "separate rooms"?), but
the way the tag is structured it is the presence of a changing table that
is tagged, not the table itself. Then the diaper key is defined as a
property ("in combination with..."), so if you intend to replace this,
yours would likely become a property (only) as well

"A key for diaper changing tables
 or separated rooms
(sometimes known as a parents room) include a nappy/diaper changing table;
in combination with toilets, shops, restaurants, service areas or something
like that."

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Valor Naram]

> From what I understand, the tag seems to be intended as a property only (requires a "feature" to add to), right?It intends to deprecate the diaper key which is currently used for tagging changing tables. I will deprecate the key for some reasons:- Key `diaper` is poor documented- Key `diaper` didn't go through the proposal process- Key `diaper` does not support shematic tagging- Key `diaper` leads to confusion of what it intends to tag- Key `diaper` does not allow us to tag changing tables inside a restroom for wheelchair users- Its subkey `diaper:wheelchair` is used but not documented yet and its meaning remains unclear. Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing tableFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 07:07 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram :What do you mean with "feature"? Do you mean the whole proposal? Do you mean the "feature" subtag ( changing_table:features )? "feature" is referring to whatever thing you are intending the tag for, or "property" if it is intended as a property for some other "feature".I see you have now added "A tag for tagging changing tables." ,which is fine, I found the former, generic description "A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy." confusing, and would suggest to remove it (because "a possibility to ..." is much broader in meaning than just a changing table).From what I understand, the tag seems to be intended as a property only (requires a "feature" to add to), right?Cheers,Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 20. Mai 2019 um 07:07 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram :

> What do you mean with "feature"? Do you mean the whole proposal? Do you
> mean the "feature" subtag ( changing_table:features )?



 "feature" is referring to whatever thing you are intending the tag for, or
"property" if it is intended as a property for some other "feature".
I see you have now added "A tag for tagging changing tables." ,which is
fine, I found the former, generic description "A tag to mark the
possibility to change the baby's nappy." confusing, and would suggest to
remove it (because "a possibility to ..." is much broader in meaning than
just a changing table).

>From what I understand, the tag seems to be intended as a property only
(requires a "feature" to add to), right?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Warin]

It is a 'property' tag .. like height etc and can only be used with some 
other feature so the definition should not be about the physical 
presence of a table.


I'd go with a definition that says something along the lines of 
"indicates the provision for changing a nappy/diaper usually on a table."


On 20/05/19 15:05, Valor Naram wrote:
What do you mean with "feature"? Do you mean the whole proposal? Do 
you mean the "feature" subtag ( changing_table:features )?



 Original Message ----
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table
From: Martin Koppenhoefer
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:




sent from a phone

> On 19. May 2019, at 20:31, Valor Naram wrote:
>
> I have rewritten my proposal to hopefully please the critic.
Please check it out:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_featu res/changing_table
>
> Author: Valor Naram
> Definition: A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's
nappy. It makes tagging of changing tables possible. See
https://en.oxforddict ionaries.com/definition/changing_table for
the definition.


IMHO you should provide a definition for the feature in the
proposal and be explicit if this is for a “possibility to change
the baby’s nappy” or more specifically a “changing table”.


Cheers, Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Valor Naram]

What do you mean with "feature"? Do you mean the whole proposal? Do you mean the "feature" subtag ( changing_table:features )? Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing tableFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: sent from a phone> On 19. May 2019, at 20:31, Valor Naram  wrote:> > I have rewritten my proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check it out: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_featu res/changing_table> > Author: Valor Naram> Definition: A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy. It makes tagging of changing tables possible. See https://en.oxforddict ionaries.com/definition/changing_table for the definition.IMHO you should provide a definition for the feature in the proposal and be explicit if this is for a “possibility to change the baby’s nappy” or more specifically a “changing table”. Cheers, Martin ___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Warin]

On 20/05/19 06:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 04:32, Valor Naram > wrote:


Hey guys,

my first proposal has been rejected for some reason. I have
rewritten my proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check
it out: 



https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

Corrected typo in link address!

What changes have you made to the proposal?

Would be handy to have a section there to show what they were




I think there has been a reduction in  the number of sub tags. But I 
don't think the reduction has gone far enough to appease the 'no' voters.


I think the proposal should only be about replacing the existing tag 
diaper=* with change_table=*. Nothing else, just that and see if that 
passes .. there are some who will object to just that and it could be a 
close call on just getting the replacement passed.


Good luck Valor.



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 04:32, Valor Naram  wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> my first proposal has been rejected for some reason. I have rewritten my
> proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check it out:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/changing_table

Corrected typo in link address!

What changes have you made to the proposal?

Would be handy to have a section there to show what they were

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. May 2019, at 20:31, Valor Naram  wrote:
> 
> I have rewritten my proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check it 
> out: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_featu res/changing_table
> 
> Author: Valor Naram
> Definition: A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy. It 
> makes tagging of changing tables possible. See https://en.oxforddict 
> ionaries.com/definition/changing_table for the definition.


IMHO you should provide a definition for the feature in the proposal and be 
explicit if this is for a “possibility to change the baby’s nappy” or more 
specifically a “changing table”. 


Cheers, Martin 
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Valor Naram]

Hey guys,

my first proposal has been rejected for some reason. I have rewritten my 
proposal to hopefully please the critic. Please check it out: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_featu res/changing_table

Author: Valor Naram
Definition: A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy. It makes 
tagging of changing tables possible. See https://en.oxforddict 
ionaries.com/definition/changing_table for the definition.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Jan S]

Hi Valor,

Thanks for reducing your proposal. I could go with it. Still, it's up to the 
programming guys to say whether the changing of the name of the key from diaper 
to changing_table is somehow problematic.

Best, Jan

Am 18. Mai 2019 11:28:31 MESZ schrieb Valor Naram :
>Hey guys,
>
>my first proposal regarding changing tables were rejected because of
>being "too complex". I will give it a second chance and provide you
>with the v2.0 of it: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_featu
>res/changing_table
>
>Author: Valor Naram
>Definition: A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy.
>It makes tagging of changing tables possible. See https://en.oxforddict
>ionaries.com/definition/changing_table for the definition.
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - changing table

[Valor Naram]

Hey guys,

my first proposal regarding changing tables were rejected because of
being "too complex". I will give it a second chance and provide you
with the v2.0 of it: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_featu
res/changing_table

Author: Valor Naram
Definition: A tag to mark the possibility to change the baby's nappy.
It makes tagging of changing tables possible. See https://en.oxforddict
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