[Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
Dear all, I'm the author of the proposal of natural=bare_soil<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Ground>. I didn't expect this modification to the voting process would have (correctly) raised this issue. As you can imagine and guessed, the motivation was to convey negative consensus to useful information to make the proposal better (not to make the opposition votes become agreement ones). I have been biased by the fact I saw the very same sentence in a past voting proposal, even if unfortunately I cannot recall which one right now... Thank you and sincere apologies, Michael Da: Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging Inviato: martedì 4 agosto 2020 10:14 A: Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging Cc: Mateusz Konieczny ; Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Oggetto: Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently? To be more clear: in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Ground=2018441=2018440 I removed "Any opposition vote without reason or suggestion will not be counted in the voting process." as it is an undiscussed modification of a proposal voting and a refusal to follow instructions on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting Opposition votes without reason or suggestion are still valid and will be counted. Though asking such voters for feedback/explanation is OK and it is preferable to explain your vote. Aug 4, 2020, 10:10 by tagging@openstreetmap.org: I partially reverted https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Ground=prev=2014966 and followed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting Note that "People should not just vote "oppose", they should give a reason for their proposal, and/or (preferably) suggestions." is suggested at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting and that it is not a new addition, but still pure "no" vote are valid ones. Aug 4, 2020, 09:57 by frede...@remote.org: Hi, looking at the "bare_soil" proposal I was surprised to read: "Any opposition vote without reason or suggestion will not be counted in the voting process." Is that something that we have added by consensus? It sounds like a somewhat sneaky measure to ignore opposition votes, or discourage those who cannot properly express their opposition in English from voting in the first place. It also raises the question of what requirements there are for a "reason or suggestion". If I vote no with a reason "it stinks", will there then be someone who says "ah, this is not a valid reason" and strips me of my vote? Who will that person be? Has this been used in other votes in the past? I'm tempted to say it would invalidate any vote but maybe it *is* indeed based on consensus and I missed that. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
I agree. Colin Smale skrev: (4 augusti 2020 11:26:30 CEST) >On 2020-08-04 10:06, Andrew Harvey wrote: > >> I'd suggest that if you vote no, it will be helpful for the community >if you could elaborate on why you're voting no, without enforcing a >reason as mandatory. Is it because this feature shouldn't be mapped, is >it because there is an alternative tag. So if the vote fails all this >feedback can be taken onboard for a revisal of the proposal and second >round of voting. > >The explanation should possibly have been given earlier, during the >consultancy phase? In a vote, the only thing that should count towards >the outcome is how you vote, not why you voted that way. All votes have >equal weight, irrespective of their motivation. > >However, in the ensuing inquest it is obviously useful to understand >why >a proposal was not supported by many people.. For that matter, it is >also useful to know what made people support it as well. > >Putting a proposal to the vote should IMHO not be done unless the >discussions are clearly pointing towards approval. A vote is not a >substitute for the discussion, it should be a confirmation that >consensus has been achieved. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
sent from a phone > On 4. Aug 2020, at 11:44, Jez Nicholson wrote: > > Frederik asks, "was our voting process changed recently", to which I believe > the answer is, "yes, abstentions are no longer included in the count" The “new” process is also flawed, as a no vote can bring a proposal to approval which might fail otherwise. In particular if 8 people have voted yes and 1 no, it will fail but another no will let it pass. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
sent from a phone > On 4. Aug 2020, at 11:16, Christoph Hormann wrote: > > It might actually be better to introduce the opposite rule - that > yes-votes need to explain why they are willing to dismiss sustained > critical voices in the discussion. This is a good point, and it is also already happening frequently: people who are not the proponent are commenting on dissenting arguments. Maybe this should be added explicitly as a suggestion to the process. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
Frederik asks, "was our voting process changed recently", to which I believe the answer is, "yes, abstentions are no longer included in the count" Please correct me if I'm mistaken. I don't at first glance see anything in the process rules, but I'm outside in the sun using a phone... On Tue, 4 Aug 2020, 10:28 Colin Smale, wrote: > On 2020-08-04 10:06, Andrew Harvey wrote: > > I'd suggest that if you vote no, it will be helpful for the community if > you could elaborate on why you're voting no, without enforcing a reason as > mandatory. Is it because this feature shouldn't be mapped, is it because > there is an alternative tag. So if the vote fails all this feedback can be > taken onboard for a revisal of the proposal and second round of voting. > > > The explanation should possibly have been given earlier, during the > consultancy phase? In a vote, the only thing that should count towards the > outcome is how you vote, not why you voted that way. All votes have equal > weight, irrespective of their motivation. > > However, in the ensuing inquest it is obviously useful to understand why a > proposal was not supported by many people.. For that matter, it is also > useful to know what made people support it as well. > > Putting a proposal to the vote should IMHO not be done unless the > discussions are clearly pointing towards approval. A vote is not a > substitute for the discussion, it should be a confirmation that consensus > has been achieved. > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 09:46, Frederik Ramm wrote: > On 04.08.20 10:06, Andy Mabbett wrote: > >> Have our tagging voting rules changed recently? > > > Which rules? > > Should I have written "was our voting process changed recently", or what > exactly are you asking? I meant the established way of proposing and > voting for tags as outlined in > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process. What I was asking - exactly - was which were the rules to which you referred, explicitly, both in your question and in the subject heading of your email. Now that you have provided a URL, I see that they are not rules at all, and that the page includes in its introduction the caveat: This page is designed to assist anyone considering putting forward a tag proposal, with the aim of speeding the tag proposing process. It is not meant as a set of absolute rules, but as a guide. and indeed that this is, as that introduction also says, merely: one of multiple ways to introduce and discuss new tags for features and properties I'm glad we've cleared that up. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 10:26, Colin Smale wrote: > Putting a proposal to the vote should IMHO not be done unless the > discussions are clearly pointing towards approval. A vote is not a > substitute for the discussion, it should be a confirmation that > consensus has been achieved. With all the usual "we are not Wikipedia" caveats, this page might make useful reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Polling_is_not_a_substitute_for_discussion -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
On 2020-08-04 10:06, Andrew Harvey wrote: > I'd suggest that if you vote no, it will be helpful for the community if you > could elaborate on why you're voting no, without enforcing a reason as > mandatory. Is it because this feature shouldn't be mapped, is it because > there is an alternative tag. So if the vote fails all this feedback can be > taken onboard for a revisal of the proposal and second round of voting. The explanation should possibly have been given earlier, during the consultancy phase? In a vote, the only thing that should count towards the outcome is how you vote, not why you voted that way. All votes have equal weight, irrespective of their motivation. However, in the ensuing inquest it is obviously useful to understand why a proposal was not supported by many people.. For that matter, it is also useful to know what made people support it as well. Putting a proposal to the vote should IMHO not be done unless the discussions are clearly pointing towards approval. A vote is not a substitute for the discussion, it should be a confirmation that consensus has been achieved.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
On Tuesday 04 August 2020, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > looking at the "bare_soil" proposal I was surprised to read: > > "Any opposition vote without reason or suggestion will not be counted > in the voting process." > > Is that something that we have added by consensus? I don't think so - but i also think the question is a bit besides the point here. The thing is the whole idea of proposal voting was originally meant as a standardized way to gauge if consensus has been achieved on a tagging question. Consensus does not require unanimity but it requires dissenting voices not being ignored and being integrated into to consensus position, to find the position that enjoys broadest possible support. For that it is of course needed that dissenting voices do not just express their dislike per se but explain why they oppose the idea. Unfortunately the proposal process is often used these days as a mere supermajority vote where the majority can push their uncompromising position against critique - no matter how well founded and well argued that critique might be. That is one of the main reasons why i typically do not vote in tagging proposals. If i criticize a tagging idea i usually have well founded reasons for that. I require these to be either addressed or being convinced with arguments to change my opinion. If that does not happen and a supermajority of voters can decide to ignore objections without engaging in a discussion on the merits and convincing me and other critical voices i am not going to legitimize the process with my participation. It might actually be better to introduce the opposite rule - that yes-votes need to explain why they are willing to dismiss sustained critical voices in the discussion. That would at least avoid people voting yes out of group-think, political allegiance or as a personal favor without having contemplated the merit of the proposal and of voices opposing it. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
Hi, On 04.08.20 10:06, Andy Mabbett wrote: >> Have our tagging voting rules changed recently? > Which rules? Should I have written "was our voting process changed recently", or what exactly are you asking? I meant the established way of proposing and voting for tags as outlined in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
sent from a phone > On 4. Aug 2020, at 09:59, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > Has this been used in other votes in the past? the instructions have always stated that opposing votes should explain why they are against it. In practice this is not a significant hurdle, because many reasons go like „for the same reasons as stated by Jane“. IMHO it makes sense to ask for reasons, although not providing them shouldn’t allow for not counting the vote. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
To be more clear: in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Ground=2018441=2018440 I removed "Any opposition vote without reason or suggestion will not be counted in the voting process."as it is an undiscussed modification of a proposal voting and a refusal to follow instructions on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting Opposition votes without reason or suggestion are still valid and will be counted. Though asking such voters for feedback/explanation is OK and it is preferable to explain your vote. Aug 4, 2020, 10:10 by tagging@openstreetmap.org: > I partially reverted > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Ground=prev=2014966 > and followed > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting > > Note that > "People should not just vote "oppose", they should give a reason for their > proposal, and/or (preferably) suggestions." > > is suggested at > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting > and that it is not a new addition, but still pure "no" > vote are valid ones. > > > Aug 4, 2020, 09:57 by frede...@remote.org: > >> Hi, >> >> looking at the "bare_soil" proposal I was surprised to read: >> >> "Any opposition vote without reason or suggestion will not be counted in >> the voting process." >> >> Is that something that we have added by consensus? >> >> It sounds like a somewhat sneaky measure to ignore opposition votes, or >> discourage those who cannot properly express their opposition in English >> from voting in the first place. It also raises the question of what >> requirements there are for a "reason or suggestion". If I vote no with a >> reason "it stinks", will there then be someone who says "ah, this is not >> a valid reason" and strips me of my vote? Who will that person be? >> >> Has this been used in other votes in the past? I'm tempted to say it >> would invalidate any vote but maybe it *is* indeed based on consensus >> and I missed that. >> >> Bye >> Frederik >> >> -- >> Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
I partially reverted https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Ground=prev=2014966 and followed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting Note that "People should not just vote "oppose", they should give a reason for their proposal, and/or (preferably) suggestions." is suggested at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Voting and that it is not a new addition, but still pure "no" vote are valid ones. Aug 4, 2020, 09:57 by frede...@remote.org: > Hi, > > looking at the "bare_soil" proposal I was surprised to read: > > "Any opposition vote without reason or suggestion will not be counted in > the voting process." > > Is that something that we have added by consensus? > > It sounds like a somewhat sneaky measure to ignore opposition votes, or > discourage those who cannot properly express their opposition in English > from voting in the first place. It also raises the question of what > requirements there are for a "reason or suggestion". If I vote no with a > reason "it stinks", will there then be someone who says "ah, this is not > a valid reason" and strips me of my vote? Who will that person be? > > Has this been used in other votes in the past? I'm tempted to say it > would invalidate any vote but maybe it *is* indeed based on consensus > and I missed that. > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 08:57, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Have our tagging voting rules changed recently? Which rules? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
I'd suggest that if you vote no, it will be helpful for the community if you could elaborate on why you're voting no, without enforcing a reason as mandatory. Is it because this feature shouldn't be mapped, is it because there is an alternative tag. So if the vote fails all this feedback can be taken onboard for a revisal of the proposal and second round of voting. On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 17:59, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > looking at the "bare_soil" proposal I was surprised to read: > > "Any opposition vote without reason or suggestion will not be counted in > the voting process." > > Is that something that we have added by consensus? > > It sounds like a somewhat sneaky measure to ignore opposition votes, or > discourage those who cannot properly express their opposition in English > from voting in the first place. It also raises the question of what > requirements there are for a "reason or suggestion". If I vote no with a > reason "it stinks", will there then be someone who says "ah, this is not > a valid reason" and strips me of my vote? Who will that person be? > > Has this been used in other votes in the past? I'm tempted to say it > would invalidate any vote but maybe it *is* indeed based on consensus > and I missed that. > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Have our tagging voting rules changed recently?
Hi, looking at the "bare_soil" proposal I was surprised to read: "Any opposition vote without reason or suggestion will not be counted in the voting process." Is that something that we have added by consensus? It sounds like a somewhat sneaky measure to ignore opposition votes, or discourage those who cannot properly express their opposition in English from voting in the first place. It also raises the question of what requirements there are for a "reason or suggestion". If I vote no with a reason "it stinks", will there then be someone who says "ah, this is not a valid reason" and strips me of my vote? Who will that person be? Has this been used in other votes in the past? I'm tempted to say it would invalidate any vote but maybe it *is* indeed based on consensus and I missed that. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
