Re: [Tagging] address property of features

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-03-18 17:56 GMT+01:00 Tristan Anderson :

> Let's say a store has three entrances: 2, 4 and 6 Main Street.  The store
> uses it's main entrance, 4 Main Street, as it's address.  Are you
> suggesting using the addr:housenumber key four times: a node at each
> entrance in addition to a tag on the store?



yes, either this, or I might add something like addr:housenumber=2;4;6 (or
2,4,6) to the store. I do this typically like the shop does it itself
(either one number or several). There's also the case that they say they're
at 33-39 but this actually reads as 33,35,37,39 (and not 34,36,38).




>  Now you've tagged 4 Main Street twice, even though there is only one 4
> Main Street.  Either tag the store or the entrance, not both.



There is one 4 Main Street, and there can be several features on this
address, and if I have to map addresses as nodes (because there is no area
for them) I will have to either repeat this address on every feature or
will have to create relations between the feature and the address (object).
That's why I started to ask here.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] address property of features

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19 Mar 2017, at 07:39, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
> 
> This goes back to the long unresolved question on whether addresses are: (1) 
> features in themselves (so each address must be uniquely represented in OSM 
> and never duplicated), or (2) simply attributes of other OSM features (so tag 
> multiple objects with the same address if they have the same address).


IMHO they are both, properties of other features but can be features on their 
own. Every address should exist just once, similar to how every route should 
exist only once (e.g. motorway 1), but it doesn't mean there will be only one 
object in osm with ref=M1 (e.g. if you add the ref to the ways which are part 
of M1 rather than to a relation for both directions). If something only exists 
once in the world does not mean we can't have several objects pointing to it.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] address property of features

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Tristan Anderson <
andersontris...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Either tag the store or the entrance, not both.
>

This goes back to the long unresolved question on whether addresses are:
(1) features in themselves (so each address must be uniquely represented in
OSM and never duplicated), or (2) simply attributes of other OSM features
(so tag multiple objects with the same address if they have the same
address).
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Re: [Tagging] address property of features

[Colin Smale]

A tip from CRM systems: addresses have a specific role, just like we
have multiple phone numbers: one for work, one for home, mobile, fax
etc., we can also have multiple addresses. One may be the legal address
of a company, one for postal deliveries (possibly non-geographic such as
a Postbox number), one for navigation purposes, one to identify the
building. all leading to the same location, but from a different
perspective. If it is "too difficult" to have address roles, try
defining which "role" the OSM address is intended to represent. They
might all be correct, but just from a different perspective. Why are the
addresses in OSM in the first place?

//colin 

On 2017-03-18 18:37, Janko Mihelić wrote:

> Imagine a data consumer trying to find out the address of all those stores. 
> Not only is it hard because you have to find surrounding areas and extract 
> the address, but in your case it's impossible because you can't know for sure 
> which entrance it took its address from. What's your solution to that? The 
> only solution I see is relations, but IMHO that would be a mess.
> 
> Janko
> 
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2017, 17:57 Tristan Anderson,  
> wrote: 
> 
>> I"m not sure I agree. 
>> 
>> Let's say a store has three entrances: 2, 4 and 6 Main Street.  The store 
>> uses it's main entrance, 4 Main Street, as it's address.  Are you suggesting 
>> using the addr:housenumber key four times: a node at each entrance in 
>> addition to a tag on the store?  Now you've tagged 4 Main Street twice, even 
>> though there is only one 4 Main Street.  Either tag the store or the 
>> entrance, not both.
> 
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Re: [Tagging] address property of features

[Janko Mihelić]

Imagine a data consumer trying to find out the address of all those stores.
Not only is it hard because you have to find surrounding areas and extract
the address, but in your case it's impossible because you can't know for
sure which entrance it took its address from. What's your solution to that?
The only solution I see is relations, but IMHO that would be a mess.

Janko

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017, 17:57 Tristan Anderson, 
wrote:

> I"m not sure I agree.
>
>
> Let's say a store has three entrances: 2, 4 and 6 Main Street.  The store
> uses it's main entrance, 4 Main Street, as it's address.  Are you
> suggesting using the addr:housenumber key four times: a node at each
> entrance in addition to a tag on the store?  Now you've tagged 4 Main
> Street twice, even though there is only one 4 Main Street.  Either tag the
> store or the entrance, not both.
>
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Re: [Tagging] address property of features

[Tristan Anderson]

I"m not sure I agree.


Let's say a store has three entrances: 2, 4 and 6 Main Street.  The store uses 
it's main entrance, 4 Main Street, as it's address.  Are you suggesting using 
the addr:housenumber key four times: a node at each entrance in addition to a 
tag on the store?  Now you've tagged 4 Main Street twice, even though there is 
only one 4 Main Street.  Either tag the store or the entrance, not both.


From: Janko Mihelić <jan...@gmail.com>
Sent: March 18, 2017 12:28 PM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] address property of features

I agree. Duplicating addresses on features is not a problem, but a feature.

Janko

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Re: [Tagging] address property of features

[Janko Mihelić]

I agree. Duplicating addresses on features is not a problem, but a feature.

Janko
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Re: [Tagging] address property of features

[André Pirard]

On 2017-03-18 14:16, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> if there's a whole building or area with one housenumber you can put
> the feature inside and it can inherit the address from the area,
There are two ways to tag multiple features (or a single one) of the
same building:

  * name space tags, but it's complicated, not well formalized, a number
of people don't like namespace although it's widely used and others
don't understand it well
  * use separate feature elements inside the buildings

I polled several people near me and separate features are by far preferred.
On the other hand, I'm tagging many buildings (very precisely) and very
often the features are already there and I tag the building around (or,
most often, I move the feature inside :-)).

I see it almost the same way as you, except that because a feature is
not an object (visible "on the ground" etc.) it is not normally allowed
to stand alone on OSM and it has to conceptually be merged with the
building so that the building inherits the features too to achieve the
same as method #1.

So, indeed, a feature can be tagged with the same street address as one
of the building, not only because it can be multiple on the building but
because, even with a single address, *someone listing the feature tags
will not see the address* and may well not think of finding it in the
building tags.

*So, the wiki should clearly state and Osmose should be notified that
forbidding to use the same address twice holds between buildings
(objects) and not between features (non objects) and other elements.*
The tags of the features are the tags of the object they belong to and,
BTW, having the same street address as the object is a good way to show
to which object (or entrance thereof) they belong.

Cheers

André.


> it seems like a good way to map, but in many cases this is not
> possible. In Italy in general, every entrance and even some potential
> entrances get their own number. Features on the ground floor can
> easily be accessible by several numbers (store fronts tend to get a
> number for each window), even 
> on different streets (if they're on a street corner). But often the
> shops only use some of these numbers (often their main entrance). It
> makes sense to add address information to those features (the address
> they use) rather or in addition to adding the address to the entrance
> (alternatively we could associate the entrance with a relation to the
> feature, but this seems less stable and more complicated for less
> experienced mappers).
>
> This practice isn't reflected by the current documentation of Addresses:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses
>
> I would like to add it, but I'm unsure if this is Italy-specific or if
> we could recommend to map like this in general.
>
> What is your opinion?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin 
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>
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[Tagging] address property of features

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

if there's a whole building or area with one housenumber you can put the 
feature inside and it can inherit the address from the area, it seems like a 
good way to map, but in many cases this is not possible. In Italy in general, 
every entrance and even some potential entrances get their own number. Features 
on the ground floor can easily be accessible by several numbers (store fronts 
tend to get a number for each window), even 
on different streets (if they're on a street corner). But often the shops only 
use some of these numbers (often their main entrance). It makes sense to add 
address information to those features (the address they use) rather or in 
addition to adding the address to the entrance (alternatively we could 
associate the entrance with a relation to the feature, but this seems less 
stable and more complicated for less experienced mappers).

This practice isn't reflected by the current documentation of Addresses:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses

I would like to add it, but I'm unsure if this is Italy-specific or if we could 
recommend to map like this in general.

What is your opinion?

Cheers,
Martin 


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