Re: [Tagging] Green lanes (OT)

2019-03-18 Thread Paul Johnson 
Or just a map roulette challenge.

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 12:46 "Christian Müller"  wrote:

> This seems reasonable but probably takes years to implement.
> Considering how tagging changes moved, or rather not moved,
> in the past, the projection into the future is that it will
> at best be yet another tagging scheme (YATS) needing to co-
> exist with the ones already present.
>
>
> Regards,
> cmuelle8
>
> > On 03/18/19, 07:57, Topographe Fou wrote:
> >
> > Lot of tools are already able to check validity of lane schemas,
> > adding one lane for bicycles (or other transportation means) will
> > not hurt them as soon as all lane tags are in line. I think that
> > moving from a "car sized" to a "whatever size" is not such a big
> > step but would help a lot simplifying the model thanks to a
> > slight change.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Green lanes (OT)

2019-03-18 Thread Christian Müller 
This seems reasonable but probably takes years to implement.
Considering how tagging changes moved, or rather not moved,
in the past, the projection into the future is that it will
at best be yet another tagging scheme (YATS) needing to co-
exist with the ones already present.


Regards,
cmuelle8 

> On 03/18/19, 07:57, Topographe Fou wrote:
> 
> Lot of tools are already able to check validity of lane schemas,
> adding one lane for bicycles (or other transportation means) will
> not hurt them as soon as all lane tags are in line. I think that
> moving from a "car sized" to a "whatever size" is not such a big
> step but would help a lot simplifying the model thanks to a
> slight change.

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Re: [Tagging] Green lanes (OT)

2019-03-18 Thread Andrew Davidson 

On 18/3/19 7:28 am, Paul Johnson wrote:
Also a good example of a situation why it makes sense to include bicycle 
lanes in the lane tagging scheme.


lanes=7
cycleway=lane
bicycle:lanes=designated|yes|designated|yes|yes|yes|yes
motor_vehicle:lanes=no|yes|no|yes|yes|yes|yes
turn:lanes=left|left|through|through|through|right|right


So a bit like this then:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/406086966

My turn:lanes is a bit different because there are no through arrows 
painted on the road--to be fair you can't see that in the street view.


Since I did this one I've realised that

access:lanes=no|yes|no|yes|yes|yes|yes

has the same problem as access=yes so I've been using

access:lanes=no||no

because that leaves the access as the default values in the lanes that 
aren't bicycle lanes. I'll have to remember to fix this one...


I've also realised that it's probably good practice to add a plain 
cycleway tag so routers that don't process :lanes tags can see the bike 
lanes. I would add a cycleway=lane and change the :lanes tag to


cycleway:lanes=lane|no|lane|no|no|no|no


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Re: [Tagging] Green lanes (OT)

2019-03-18 Thread Topographe Fou 
  I disagree with the fact that making things even more complex (with adding an "all_lane" ) will help to solve when there is already a well known use of lane schema. Imagine cases where bicycles lanes are between two same direction lanes (it sometimes happens with a turn right lane. There the bicycle lane is between the through lane and the turn right lane)Lot of tools are already able to check validity of lane schemas, adding one lane for bicycles (or other transportation means) will not hurt them as soon as all lane tags are in line. I think that moving from a "car sized" to a "whatever size" is not such a big step but would help a lot simplifying the model thanks to a slight change.LeTopographeFou   De: matkoni...@tutanota.comEnvoyé: 18 mars 2019 2:13 AMÀ: tagging@openstreetmap.orgRépondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.orgObjet: Re: [Tagging] Green lanes (OT)  Mar 18, 2019, 12:48 AM by ba...@ursamundi.org:On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 5:33 PM Mateusz Konieczny <matkoni...@tutanota.com> wrote:Note that bicycle only lanes are not included in lanes tag count (only full lanes are counted).Lets fix this error by omission already.  Not counting all lanes serves nobody. Redefining lanes tag from "count of full lanes" to "count of all lanes" while it isused 9 million times is also a poor idea.New tag like all_lanes or something similar would likely be a better idea.https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org//search?q=lanes
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Re: [Tagging] Green lanes (OT)

2019-03-17 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 20:12 Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

>
>
>
> Mar 18, 2019, 12:48 AM by ba...@ursamundi.org:
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 5:33 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
>
> Note that bicycle only lanes are not included in lanes tag count (only
> full lanes are counted).
>
>
> Lets fix this error by omission already.  Not counting all lanes serves
> *nobody*.
>
> Redefining lanes tag from "count of full lanes" to "count of all lanes"
> while it is
> used 9 million times is also a poor idea.
>

The premise that bike lanes aren't lanes is an inherently flawed one to
start with.  Up there with defining routes as a ref=* tag on constitutant
ways, and yet, route relations are a thing with the need for tagging ref=*
waning.  The idea that this is an unfixible problem is short sighted.

>
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Re: [Tagging] Green lanes (OT)

2019-03-17 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 



Mar 18, 2019, 12:48 AM by ba...@ursamundi.org:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 5:33 PM Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>> Note that bicycle only lanes are not included in lanes tag count (only full 
>> lanes are counted).
>>
>
> Lets fix this error by omission already.  Not counting all lanes serves > 
> nobody> . 
>
Redefining lanes tag from "count of full lanes" to "count of all lanes" while 
it is
used 9 million times is also a poor idea.

New tag like all_lanes or something similar would likely be a better idea.

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org//search?q=lanes
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Re: [Tagging] Green lanes (OT)

2019-03-17 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 5:33 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> Note that bicycle only lanes are not included in lanes tag count (only
> full lanes are counted).
>

Lets fix this error by omission already.  Not counting all lanes serves
*nobody*.
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Re: [Tagging] Green lanes (OT)

2019-03-17 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 



Mar 17, 2019, 9:28 PM by ba...@ursamundi.org:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 2:43 AM Andrew Davidson <> thesw...@gmail.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>> On 17/3/19 4:30 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>  > Or even
>>  > >> 
>> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0766007,153.4447888,3a,20.7y,49.91h,89.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3dPlQ9YxNBm-7lRm4GOUPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>>  
>> 
>>  > 
>>  > & back another 30 m's or so
>>  > 
>>  > >> 
>> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0767024,153.296,3a,27.3y,57.48h,86.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj4MRicAAxp4hNWeZbBs-zg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>>  
>> 
>>  > Did somebody say something about marking lanes by the way!
>>  
>>  Don't worry...the green paint has magical protective properties.
>>  
>>  We have some beauties in Canberra:
>>  
>>  >> 
>> https://www.google.com/maps/@-35.3034635,149.1818641,3a,60y,295.56h,87.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sERm_fITufjNl0fb1g58vjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  It's particularly fun to be cycling along in your little cycle lane 
>>  while cars rush by on both sides of you at 80 km/h.
>>  
>>
>
> Also a good example of a situation why it makes sense to include bicycle 
> lanes in the lane tagging scheme.
>
> lanes=7
> cycleway=lane
> bicycle:lanes=designated|yes|designated|yes|yes|yes|yes
> motor_vehicle:lanes=no|yes|no|yes|yes|yes|yes
> turn:lanes=left|left|through|through|through|right|right
>
Note that bicycle only lanes are not included in lanes tag count (only full 
lanes are counted).
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Re: [Tagging] Green lanes (OT)

2019-03-17 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 2:43 AM Andrew Davidson  wrote:

> On 17/3/19 4:30 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > Or even
> >
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0766007,153.4447888,3a,20.7y,49.91h,89.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3dPlQ9YxNBm-7lRm4GOUPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> >
> > & back another 30 m's or so
> >
> >
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0767024,153.296,3a,27.3y,57.48h,86.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj4MRicAAxp4hNWeZbBs-zg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> > Did somebody say something about marking lanes by the way!
>
> Don't worry...the green paint has magical protective properties.
>
> We have some beauties in Canberra:
>
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-35.3034635,149.1818641,3a,60y,295.56h,87.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sERm_fITufjNl0fb1g58vjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>
> It's particularly fun to be cycling along in your little cycle lane
> while cars rush by on both sides of you at 80 km/h.
>
>
Also a good example of a situation why it makes sense to include bicycle
lanes in the lane tagging scheme.

lanes=7
cycleway=lane
bicycle:lanes=designated|yes|designated|yes|yes|yes|yes
motor_vehicle:lanes=no|yes|no|yes|yes|yes|yes
turn:lanes=left|left|through|through|through|right|right
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[Tagging] Green lanes (OT)

2019-03-17 Thread Andrew Davidson 

On 17/3/19 4:30 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Or even
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0766007,153.4447888,3a,20.7y,49.91h,89.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3dPlQ9YxNBm-7lRm4GOUPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

& back another 30 m's or so

https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0767024,153.296,3a,27.3y,57.48h,86.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj4MRicAAxp4hNWeZbBs-zg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Did somebody say something about marking lanes by the way!


Don't worry...the green paint has magical protective properties.

We have some beauties in Canberra:

https://www.google.com/maps/@-35.3034635,149.1818641,3a,60y,295.56h,87.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sERm_fITufjNl0fb1g58vjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It's particularly fun to be cycling along in your little cycle lane 
while cars rush by on both sides of you at 80 km/h.


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