Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
2012/1/11 Serge Wroclawski > parking=* requires amenity=parking. > > That seems entirely redundant to me, and if I were king, I'd strip out > amenity=parking. > (the whole parking scheme needs re-design to integrate the various > schemes currently in place). > > - Serge This should be part of rethinking highway=* and all the features related to "automotive" for istance (roads, parkings, excetera). I find also bad the service=* tag.. 2012/1/11 Erik Johansson > > > Use the tags, document them, link, upload pictures and write on the > wiki. Try not to plan. these are things you can do even though you are > not a native speaker. Openstreetmap has nothing to do with England nor > English. > > For tagging this is a X type of feature what we really need is lots of > info on "you want to add X to the map, then you can tag it like this, > that, or like this". Where the simplest answer is the default. > > But just look at the discussion for amenity=gym, simple things are the > hardest. > > When I said planning I meant to take existing keys and values, consider use cases and "plan" solutions :) Example: in a subpage there should be tables which explain what new tag inherit old one and why (back to the dentist: healthcare=dentist | amenity=dentist | seperating tagging for health ) > > migrate existing data :) > > Nice smiley.. :-) It's not about migrating data it's about migrating > stubborn fools. (i.e. everyone but yourself) You mean I'm like Don Quixote fighting with windmills? eheh ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 17:28, sabas88 wrote: > 2012/1/11 Michael Krämer >> >> To be honest I haven't really thought about the >> difference between until this thread came up... > > > That's a problem for various non-native speakers (me included eheh) > > This should be an opportunity to make some changes in syntax and semantics > [1] of OSM. Use the tags, document them, link, upload pictures and write on the wiki. Try not to plan. these are things you can do even though you are not a native speaker. Openstreetmap has nothing to do with England nor English. For tagging this is a X type of feature what we really need is lots of info on "you want to add X to the map, then you can tag it like this, that, or like this". Where the simplest answer is the default. But just look at the discussion for amenity=gym, simple things are the hardest. > migrate existing data :) Nice smiley.. :-) It's not about migrating data it's about migrating stubborn fools. (i.e. everyone but yourself) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
parking=* requires amenity=parking. That seems entirely redundant to me, and if I were king, I'd strip out amenity=parking. (the whole parking scheme needs re-design to integrate the various schemes currently in place). - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
2012/1/11 Michael Krämer > To be honest I haven't really thought about the > difference between until this thread came up... That's a problem for various non-native speakers (me included eheh) This should be an opportunity to make some changes in syntax and semantics [1] of OSM. We should start a wiki entry to organize the ideas in a collaborative Project (The Plan?) which will become the reccomendation from the final approval on and a suggestion to migrate existing data :) (the automation should be leaved to whom messes with [local] data) My proposal: -main page: description, aim, index and discussion for general ideas; -subpages: one for each category or area of interest (primary features [2] gives a good approximation of what I mean) Also, this will promote also thinking on how would be simplified tagging particular features (comes in mind also the cultural/heritage theme, from archaeology to museums, a main key culture=*?). Discussion should be focused also on the best word to use, as John pointed out, and here the main work should be made by native speakers :) Stefano [1]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Semantics [2]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
What about tourism=artwork? Art really has not much to do with tourism (also tourism=zoo seems odd, would maybe better in leisure?). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
> Anyway, this is partly just fussing about the mismatch between natural > language and a more formal language, I guess. Plus some fuzziness due to translation or non-native speakers trying to transfer terms of their native language into English. Added the fact that English often has two words where other languages have only one - amenity and facility in this context translate to the same German word. To be honest I haven't really thought about the difference between until this thread came up... Michael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
On 1/11/2012 10:26 AM, John Sturdy wrote: Likewise, there are many lake-like or pond-like things that are clearly not natural, but don't really match my understanding of the term "reservoir". (Perhaps more of them should be "basin"s? But those seem fairly specific.) The way I see it, the water is natural, even if it's there because of human intervention. (But don't get me started on landuse=reservoir - that should correctly be the land used for reservoir purposes, not only that normally covered by water.) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:42 AM, sabas88 wrote: > Take the examples of dentist and prison, they > aren't "pleasant" (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/amenity) :) Perhaps "facility" would be a better word for such things? There are some tags I'd very much like to see changed, but I've held back from suggesting changes because I assumed that I'd just get told it's too late, and nothing would happen... I'll list the ones that jar most with me, anyway. Some of these are just mismatches between the common English use of a word and how we use it in the tagging scheme. power = station for electricity substations; I think these should be power = substation power = generator for what I usually call "power stations"; I think these should be power = station, and power = generator should be for the main piece of electromechanical equipment within them (just as we have power = transformer for the actual transformers within a substation) landuse = forest for non-naturally-occurring woodland; the word "forest" as I understand it means something much larger than a wood, but there are many small woods in England that have clearly been planted deliberately but are not really a forestry operation; every time I enter "natural = wood" for them I'm aware that they're probably not natural. However, I'm not sure what to suggest for a tree-covered area that is neither really natural nor a proper plantation. I remember there was some discussion about land use vs land cover; perhaps describing somewhere as being covered in trees (and optionally indicating that it's a commercial operation) might be better. Likewise, there are many lake-like or pond-like things that are clearly not natural, but don't really match my understanding of the term "reservoir". (Perhaps more of them should be "basin"s? But those seem fairly specific.) Anyway, this is partly just fussing about the mismatch between natural language and a more formal language, I guess. __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
2012/1/11 Frederik Ramm > > I find it a bit harsh that you complain about amenity=dentist when others > languish in an amenity=prison. > I laughed hard, I didn't noticed it :D 2012/1/11 Martin Koppenhoefer > > nobody stops you from using other keys then "amenity", some people > already do it, look here: > > http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/healthcare#values > http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/health_facility%3Atype#values > http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/healthcare%3Aspeciality#values Yes Martin, they are using either approved but contested proposals or "user defined" values. My idea was to discuss a possible project made of different proposal covering each its area (health, education,...) which would give a more rational set of keys to use :) I know only few tags and for others I rely upon Josm menu and on wiki. Take the examples of dentist and prison, they aren't "pleasant" (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/amenity) :) This work would be also helpful for whom develop applications (example: Josm, Vespucci, Osmtracker, Maperitive) struggling with different dialects of tagging :) Cheers, Stefano ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
2012/1/10 sabas88 : > For instance the discussion could start with a simple case: healthcare. > Now the health facilities are tagged in amenity (when I go to the dentist > I'm not happy as I would be in a bar!), but (in my dream world :) ) they > should deserve a seperate key: I found two proposals, one contested [1] and > one in RFC status [2] (but I somewhat dislike it at a first glance). nobody stops you from using other keys then "amenity", some people already do it, look here: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/healthcare#values http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/health_facility%3Atype#values http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/healthcare%3Aspeciality#values Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
Hi, On 01/10/12 18:02, sabas88 wrote: Now the health facilities are tagged in amenity (when I go to the dentist I'm not happy as I would be in a bar!) I find it a bit harsh that you complain about amenity=dentist when others languish in an amenity=prison. Bye Frederik ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Health and other stories
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:02:23 +0100, sabas88 wrote: > Hi list, > I want to suggest a topic of discussion not often considered: planning a > more rational tagging system to be applied onto the existing data and for > the future. Stefano, you know I fully support you. We started a similar thread on talk-it, and every time I tried to rationalize the tagging system a bit, I've always had people complain about "changing the status quo". I now started working, so I don't really have the time, nor the energies, to sustain long flames on mailing lists :) -- but be assured you have my +1000 (because "+1" is just not enough here). > For instance the discussion could start with a simple case: healthcare. > Now the health facilities are tagged in amenity (when I go to the dentist > I'm not happy as I would be in a bar!) [..] Poor you. You'd be happier if I were your dentist ;) Have a nice evening, David (a just-graduated-dentist) ;) -- . ''`. Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Health and other stories
Hi list, I want to suggest a topic of discussion not often considered: planning a more rational tagging system to be applied onto the existing data and for the future. (OK, it's flame time! :D) For instance the discussion could start with a simple case: healthcare. Now the health facilities are tagged in amenity (when I go to the dentist I'm not happy as I would be in a bar!), but (in my dream world :) ) they should deserve a seperate key: I found two proposals, one contested [1] and one in RFC status [2] (but I somewhat dislike it at a first glance). Same discussion could be started on education, culture and so on. Perhaps the amenity key is abused as a POI collector, but in my humble opinion, there should be more categories (or, if you like, subcategories as amenity=health, health=* but it's less effective). (Un)Occupy the Amenity key! Regards, Stefano PS This email seems ironic, but I would seriously like to promote discussion on this topic. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Healthcare [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Healthcare_2.0 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
