Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Friedrich Volkmann
On 11.03.2015 17:58, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> "It's all driven by technocrats who have no clue about what a tree
> or forest looks like in the real world."
> 
> Small note, phrases like this are unlikely to be a good idea.

Let's assume that technocrats don't read this. :-)

-- 
Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
"It's all driven by technocrats who have no clue about what a tree
or forest looks like in the real world."


Small note, phrases like this are unlikely to be a good idea.

2015-03-11 17:36 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann :

> On 10.03.2015 21:41, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> > I'm seeking comments on adding "palm" to the leaf types
> > at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:leaf_type
> >
> > A rendering engine can equate palm and "broadleaved".  Mappers are
> mapping palms
> > very frequently, and having this key name I think would reduce confusion.
>
> I am glad you added a palm symbol to
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree#Possible_Rendering.
> When I created the conversion table in that section, I wondered why there
> is
> no palm symbol. I believed that I had already seen a palm symbol somewhere
> in the wiki, but I didn't manage to retrieve it. Then I searched google for
> palm symbols, but did not find anything either. So I was finally in doubt
> whether palm symbols are in use in carthography at all, although I still
> believe that palm symbols add value to maps. If broad and needle leaved
> trees get different symbols, palms should get their symbol as well because
> of their distinctive look. And - but that's just my subjective opinion -
> palm symbols look so cute that a map becomes more appealing when it
> incorporates them.
>
> Concerning tagging, there has been an approved and widely used key for a
> long time with exactly the values we need to distinguish palms, needle
> leaved and broad leaved trees. This key is type=*. This key worked quite
> well. However, there were two aesthetic issues with that key: That it is
> also used for relation types, and that there's a different key wood=* used
> for areas (natural=wood, landuse=forest).
>
> These issues evaporate when you look at them from an analytical
> perspective.
> type=* of trees never collides with type=* of relations, because trees are
> not relations. And wood=* has just another purpose. While
> type=broad_leaved/coniferous/palm defines the *habitus* of a single plant,
> wood=* describes a *behaviour* of an area. wood=evergreen means that
> assimilation (photosynthesis) does not change much with the seasons, and
> that the tree crowns remain continuously opaque. wood=coniferous means that
> the crowns are constantly semi-opaque, and that assimilation remains also
> at
> an intermediate level. wood=deciduous means that both assimilation and
> opaqueness have big seasonal amplitudes. This tag has enourmous ecological
> and econimical implications, and it may also be used to determine good
> times
> for documention (photographing, creating arial images) and recreational
> use.
>
> It is absolutely useless to use tags the other way round, i.e. plant
> habitus
> for forests or assimilation amplitudes for single trees. Therefore, no
> serious efforts were made to unify these tags, for many years.
>
> Then came Rudolf's surprise attack. He created a flawed proposal that
> missed
> all of the above points, and pushed it to voting just 3 weeks later. This
> was a much too short disussion period for a change affecting tremendous
> amounts of existing data. Many people, including me, did not have enough
> spare time in that time frame to participate in the discussion and to
> single
> out all of the flaws which include:
>
> - The wrong interpretation of the rule that "type=* for non-relation
> elements should be avoided".
> - The mistaken reduction of wood=* "to describe the type of leaves".
> - The wrong assumption that all of these tags mean the same.
> - The wrong assumption that new keys make things easier. Obviously, the
> opposite is true, because mappers and applications now need to know the new
> tags *in addition* to the conventional tags.
> - An ugly key name leaf_type=* although the more sound foliage=* key had
> been suggested on Talk:Key:wood as early as in 2012 by Alv.
> - broadleaved and needleleaved with no underscores
> - information loss due to the missing equivalent to type=palm
> - and worst of all, the "deprecating established keys" thing. There were
> more than 1 million of uses for wood=* and type=*. How can a proposal
> deprecate tags used a million times? Do 27 votes on a wiki page legitimate
> for the deprecation of tags used by >1 distinct mappers on >100
> objects?
>
> Well, you could think that a proposal is one thing, and actual usage is
> another thing. Let's see how real mappers will accept it in real life. But
> in this very case, real world mappers got no chance. Immediately after
> voting has ended, Rudolf marked type=* and wood=* as deprecated on the
> natural=tree and wood=* wiki pages. I guess that some JOSM developers
> wanted
> to keep their editor cutting-edge by changing templates or suchlike to the
> "new" tagging scheme. And some validators spit out warnings when they come
> across the "decprecated" tags.
>
> As we all now, some sofa mappers spend all day searching for things to
> 

Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Friedrich Volkmann
On 10.03.2015 21:41, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> I'm seeking comments on adding "palm" to the leaf types
> at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:leaf_type
> 
> A rendering engine can equate palm and "broadleaved".  Mappers are mapping 
> palms
> very frequently, and having this key name I think would reduce confusion.

I am glad you added a palm symbol to
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree#Possible_Rendering.
When I created the conversion table in that section, I wondered why there is
no palm symbol. I believed that I had already seen a palm symbol somewhere
in the wiki, but I didn't manage to retrieve it. Then I searched google for
palm symbols, but did not find anything either. So I was finally in doubt
whether palm symbols are in use in carthography at all, although I still
believe that palm symbols add value to maps. If broad and needle leaved
trees get different symbols, palms should get their symbol as well because
of their distinctive look. And - but that's just my subjective opinion -
palm symbols look so cute that a map becomes more appealing when it
incorporates them.

Concerning tagging, there has been an approved and widely used key for a
long time with exactly the values we need to distinguish palms, needle
leaved and broad leaved trees. This key is type=*. This key worked quite
well. However, there were two aesthetic issues with that key: That it is
also used for relation types, and that there's a different key wood=* used
for areas (natural=wood, landuse=forest).

These issues evaporate when you look at them from an analytical perspective.
type=* of trees never collides with type=* of relations, because trees are
not relations. And wood=* has just another purpose. While
type=broad_leaved/coniferous/palm defines the *habitus* of a single plant,
wood=* describes a *behaviour* of an area. wood=evergreen means that
assimilation (photosynthesis) does not change much with the seasons, and
that the tree crowns remain continuously opaque. wood=coniferous means that
the crowns are constantly semi-opaque, and that assimilation remains also at
an intermediate level. wood=deciduous means that both assimilation and
opaqueness have big seasonal amplitudes. This tag has enourmous ecological
and econimical implications, and it may also be used to determine good times
for documention (photographing, creating arial images) and recreational use.

It is absolutely useless to use tags the other way round, i.e. plant habitus
for forests or assimilation amplitudes for single trees. Therefore, no
serious efforts were made to unify these tags, for many years.

Then came Rudolf's surprise attack. He created a flawed proposal that missed
all of the above points, and pushed it to voting just 3 weeks later. This
was a much too short disussion period for a change affecting tremendous
amounts of existing data. Many people, including me, did not have enough
spare time in that time frame to participate in the discussion and to single
out all of the flaws which include:

- The wrong interpretation of the rule that "type=* for non-relation
elements should be avoided".
- The mistaken reduction of wood=* "to describe the type of leaves".
- The wrong assumption that all of these tags mean the same.
- The wrong assumption that new keys make things easier. Obviously, the
opposite is true, because mappers and applications now need to know the new
tags *in addition* to the conventional tags.
- An ugly key name leaf_type=* although the more sound foliage=* key had
been suggested on Talk:Key:wood as early as in 2012 by Alv.
- broadleaved and needleleaved with no underscores
- information loss due to the missing equivalent to type=palm
- and worst of all, the "deprecating established keys" thing. There were
more than 1 million of uses for wood=* and type=*. How can a proposal
deprecate tags used a million times? Do 27 votes on a wiki page legitimate
for the deprecation of tags used by >1 distinct mappers on >100 objects?

Well, you could think that a proposal is one thing, and actual usage is
another thing. Let's see how real mappers will accept it in real life. But
in this very case, real world mappers got no chance. Immediately after
voting has ended, Rudolf marked type=* and wood=* as deprecated on the
natural=tree and wood=* wiki pages. I guess that some JOSM developers wanted
to keep their editor cutting-edge by changing templates or suchlike to the
"new" tagging scheme. And some validators spit out warnings when they come
across the "decprecated" tags.

As we all now, some sofa mappers spend all day searching for things to
correct, using validators. These people do not care about how map features
represent the real world, or who mapped them or why, or who will ever use
the data. They only care about what the validator says. If a validator
blinks red, there's a need to change something, and if it does not blink
red, everything is fine.

This results in mass edits that violate the mechanical edits policy. 

Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Russell Deffner
Ok, I’m not sure that ‘family’ is the correct taxonomy for angio/gymnosperms 
(maybe it’s some sort of sub-order), or maybe that wiki-page is just bad; 
here’s another by comparison that seems to match my memory: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trees_and_shrubs_by_taxonomic_family

 

I’ll admit, I concentrated in Fire Science, so tree/plant ID and such wasn’t as 
important to me as intensity and spread which use a whole other classification 
system for ‘fuel type’

=Russ

 

From: Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 3:44 AM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

 

 

2015-03-11 7:40 GMT+01:00 Russell Deffner :

In taxonomy of trees there are two kinds of families - gymnosperms and 
angiosperms, commonly called deciduous and coniferous but actually 
scientifically separated by their reproductive difference not what their leaves 
look like, do, etc.



Not that I knew better, but I've looked it up ;-)
If I understood this page correctly, angiosperms are not a family in the taxon 
sense but something higher than an order: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowering_plant

See here for the taxon hierarchy: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Biological_classification_L_Pengo_vflip.svg

cheers,

Martin

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2015-03-11 12:24 GMT+01:00 Rudolf Martin :

> Perhaps we can find a general simple tagging for palms.
>
> key:genus and key:species expect the scientific name of a plant. These are
> normaly not known to non-botanists.
>


you could also use common names, e.g. species:de=Ölpalme or
species:en=oil_palm
but you'd still have to know the species quite well in order to be able to
use these tags.



>
> "taxon:en=palm" may be a good solution, although I would prefer
> "taxon=palm". Unfortunable the latter don't fit to the taxon definition.
>


I think it is important to have the language suffix when tagging common
names, otherwise we'd end up with a mess.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Rudolf Martin

Perhaps we can find a general simple tagging for palms.

 

key:genus and key:species expect the scientific name of a plant. These are normaly not known to non-botanists.

 

"taxon:en=palm" may be a good solution, although I would prefer "taxon=palm". Unfortunable the latter don't fit to the taxon definition.

 

Cheers

Rudolf

 

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. März 2015 um 10:36 Uhr
Von: "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
An: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type



 
2015-03-11 5:54 GMT+01:00 Bryce Nesbitt <bry...@obviously.com>:


There are species and genus tags, but many mappers won't be able to
fill that those.   Palm on the other hand is easy,
and makes a great map symbol also.




If you're not sure about the genus or species, you could also use more generic taxon like
family=Arecaceae
or common names, like family:en=palm
 

Or following this page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:taxon

taxon:family=Arecaceae

taxon:family:en=palm
 

or if you don't know that palms are a family:

taxon:en=palm

(at least that's what the taxon page suggests).
 

Cheers,

Martin

 

 

___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Rudolf Martin

+1

 

 

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. März 2015 um 08:13 Uhr
Von: "Lukas Sommer" 
An: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

There are 533 413 elements with the “leaf_type” key. Only 83 of them
have the value “palm”. This are 0.0156 % and certainly not “widely
used” at all!

I suppose you want to make a mechanical edit to change the existing 13
056 elements with type=palm. But you would change the description of
leaf_type=*. You would destroy the clean description of a clean and
well-defined key. An important reasons for the introduction of
leaf_type=* was that the previous solutions were too complex, not well
coordinated, too detailed – and thought didn’t work well. leaf_type=*
is an effort to keep things simple and clear. It’s not good to break
this.

You should not change the description of leaf_type=*. You should use
leaf_type=broadleaved and – if you want – add some other tag to make a
more exact description.

2015-03-11 4:54 GMT, Bryce Nesbitt :
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 9:01 PM, johnw  wrote:
>>
>> There are places where there are an amazing mount of Palm trees, and
>> confusing them with a broadleaf tree is not great. But is this the main
>> way the species (or class or whatever) of tree is defined? I thought there
>> was some species tag for this as well - or is it too difficult when
>> mapping to know the type of tree beyond it’s leaf?
>
> There are species and genus tags, but many mappers won't be able to
> fill that those. Palm on the other hand is easy,
> and makes a great map symbol also.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


--
Lukas Sommer

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Rudolf Martin

I oppose this suggestion.

 

The key:leaf_type should be as simple as possible. Palms are included in leaf_type=broadleaved.

 

The values relate to the Land Cover Classification System (LCCS) by FAO. I don't know any classification systems with leaf_type=palm.

 

To refine the tagging you can use key:species or key:genus or key:taxon. I'm not sure which will fit the best.

 

Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. März 2015 um 21:41 Uhr
Von: "Bryce Nesbitt" 
An: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
Betreff: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type





I'm seeking comments on adding "palm" to the leaf types
at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:leaf_type
 
A rendering engine can equate palm and "broadleaved".  Mappers are mapping palms
very frequently, and having this key name I think would reduce confusion.
___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2015-03-11 7:40 GMT+01:00 Russell Deffner :

> In taxonomy of trees there are two kinds of families - gymnosperms and
> angiosperms, commonly called deciduous and coniferous but actually
> scientifically separated by their reproductive difference not what their
> leaves look like, do, etc.



Not that I knew better, but I've looked it up ;-)
If I understood this page correctly, angiosperms are not a family in the
taxon sense but something higher than an order:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowering_plant
See here for the taxon hierarchy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Biological_classification_L_Pengo_vflip.svg

cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2015-03-11 5:54 GMT+01:00 Bryce Nesbitt :

> There are species and genus tags, but many mappers won't be able to
> fill that those.   Palm on the other hand is easy,
> and makes a great map symbol also.
>


If you're not sure about the genus or species, you could also use more
generic taxon like
family=Arecaceae
or common names, like family:en=palm

Or following this page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:taxon
taxon:family=Arecaceae
taxon:family:en=palm

or if you don't know that palms are a family:
taxon:en=palm
(at least that's what the taxon page suggests).

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
It would be harder to process and break existing data consumers.
I think that cascading tagging style - [leaf_type=broadleaved;
broadleaved=palm]
would be better.

It provides full information without growing list of valid values of
leaf_type.

2015-03-11 2:32 GMT+01:00 Bryce Nesbitt :

> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Lukas Sommer  wrote:
>
>> So it this seems to me that this is just a special case of broadleaved.
>>
>
> The difficulty is that palms are widely mapped now, and changing type=palm
> to leaf_type=broadleaved
> feels like removing information.  Yet that's what the wiki recommends
> doing.
>
> However, leaf_type=palm would loose no data, and still be recognizable as
> a broadleaved leaf type.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Bryce Nesbitt
On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 11:40 PM, Russell Deffner
 wrote:
> Hi, I hope this helps (and that I’m remembering correctly my education from 
> forestry school in the states),
>
> In taxonomy of trees there are two kinds of families - gymnosperms and 
> angiosperms, commonly called deciduous and coniferous but actually 
> scientifically separated by their reproductive difference not what their 
> leaves look like, do, etc.
>
> More commonly you here layman terms depending on context:
> -‘Leaf Type’ (the structure of the leaves): needle, broad and/or palm
> -‘Leaf Retention’ (if they fall off or not): evergreen, autumn/broad, and/or 
> Palm
> - ‘Wood Type’ (for wood product industry): soft, hard, exotic/ornamental

Araucariaceae happens to be my favourite gymnosperm, but why get all
technical? The "species=" tag is available for that.
What you've got there is a good looking list of what's easily observed
about an individual tree, which is what most mappers can do.  It's
pretty close to leaf_type/leaf_cycle and wood, minus the palm trees.

Existing land cover databases mostly talk about forests, not trees:
http://bioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu/products/glc2000/legend.php
http://landcover.usgs.gov/classes.php#upland
And mapping individual trees, as many people are doing for whatever
reason, is slightly different.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-11 Thread Lukas Sommer
There are 533 413 elements with the “leaf_type” key. Only 83 of them
have the value “palm”. This are 0.0156 % and certainly not “widely
used” at all!

I suppose you want to make a mechanical edit to change the existing 13
056 elements with type=palm. But you would change the description of
leaf_type=*. You would destroy the clean description of a clean and
well-defined key. An important reasons for the introduction of
leaf_type=* was that the previous solutions were too complex, not well
coordinated, too detailed – and thought didn’t work well. leaf_type=*
is an effort to keep things simple and clear. It’s not good to break
this.

You should not change the description of leaf_type=*. You should use
leaf_type=broadleaved and – if you want – add some other tag to make a
more exact description.

2015-03-11 4:54 GMT, Bryce Nesbitt :
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 9:01 PM, johnw  wrote:
>>
>> There are places where there are an amazing mount of Palm trees, and
>> confusing them with a broadleaf tree is not great. But is this the main
>> way the species (or class or whatever) of tree is defined? I thought there
>> was some species tag for this as well - or is it too difficult when
>> mapping to know the type of tree beyond it’s leaf?
>
> There are species and genus tags, but many mappers won't be able to
> fill that those.   Palm on the other hand is easy,
> and makes a great map symbol also.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


-- 
Lukas Sommer

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-10 Thread Russell Deffner
Hi, I hope this helps (and that I’m remembering correctly my education from 
forestry school in the states),

In taxonomy of trees there are two kinds of families - gymnosperms and 
angiosperms, commonly called deciduous and coniferous but actually 
scientifically separated by their reproductive difference not what their leaves 
look like, do, etc.

More commonly you here layman terms depending on context:
-‘Leaf Type’ (the structure of the leaves): needle, broad and/or palm
-‘Leaf Retention’ (if they fall off or not): evergreen, autumn/broad, and/or 
Palm
- ‘Wood Type’ (for wood product industry): soft, hard, exotic/ornamental 

Maybe we need a key/value for each 'category'; and genus and species is 
probably best for 'micro-mapping' individual trees or maybe 
scientific_name=[genus_species] and/or common_name=* example pinus_ponderosa / 
ponderosa_pine

Wish I had more time to work on a proposal/update/upgrade to the wood/natural 
tagging, but can help answer questions (was going to chime in about the 
diameter/crown discussion – there’s a whole slew of measurements and how to 
make them regarding individual trees versus forest plots/stands, etc.)

Cheers,
=Russ

Russell Deffner


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-10 Thread Bryce Nesbitt
On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 9:01 PM, johnw  wrote:
>
> There are places where there are an amazing mount of Palm trees, and 
> confusing them with a broadleaf tree is not great. But is this the main way 
> the species (or class or whatever) of tree is defined? I thought there was 
> some species tag for this as well - or is it too difficult when mapping to 
> know the type of tree beyond it’s leaf?

There are species and genus tags, but many mappers won't be able to
fill that those.   Palm on the other hand is easy,
and makes a great map symbol also.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-10 Thread johnw
There are places where there are an amazing mount of Palm trees, and confusing 
them with a broadleaf tree is not great. But is this the main way the species 
(or class or whatever) of tree is defined? it thought there was some species 
tag for this as well - or is it too difficult when mapping to know the type of 
tree beyond it’s leaf?

It would be nice if trees marked get a color or shape at extremely high zoom 
(z19?).  Many park maps in Japan map the trees (yes, individual trees) as to 
what color stereotype it’s blooms are. (soft pink dots for cherry, magenta for 
plum, etc), as people often go looking in the parks for the blooms in spring. 

Javbw

> On Mar 11, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:
> 
> It certainly seems to me that palm trees are different enough from what I 
> usually consider to be a broad-leafed tree to warrant their own leaf_type. 
> +1
> Palms are their own group of trees distinct from broad-leaved trees or 
> conifers and it makes sense to tag with a different value.
> 
> Mike
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-10 Thread Mike Thompson
>
> It certainly seems to me that palm trees are different enough from what I
> usually consider to be a broad-leafed tree to warrant their own leaf_type.
>
+1
Palms are their own group of trees distinct from broad-leaved trees or
conifers and it makes sense to tag with a different value.

Mike
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-10 Thread Dave Swarthout
+1
leaf_type=palm would loose no data, and still be recognizable as a
broadleaved leaf type.

It certainly seems to me that palm trees are different enough from what I
usually consider to be a broad-leafed tree to warrant their own leaf_type.

My 2 cents

On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Lukas Sommer  wrote:
>
>> So it this seems to me that this is just a special case of broadleaved.
>>
>
> The difficulty is that palms are widely mapped now, and changing type=palm
> to leaf_type=broadleaved
> feels like removing information.  Yet that's what the wiki recommends
> doing.
>
> However, leaf_type=palm would loose no data, and still be recognizable as
> a broadleaved leaf type.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-10 Thread Bryce Nesbitt
On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Lukas Sommer  wrote:

> So it this seems to me that this is just a special case of broadleaved.
>

The difficulty is that palms are widely mapped now, and changing type=palm
to leaf_type=broadleaved
feels like removing information.  Yet that's what the wiki recommends doing.

However, leaf_type=palm would loose no data, and still be recognizable as a
broadleaved leaf type.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-10 Thread Lukas Sommer
“palm” is described explicitly as an example at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leaf_type%3Dbroadleaved

So it this seems to me that this is just a special case of broadleaved.

I have doubts in adding a new value which is just a special case of an
existing value – in the same key. We loose the hirarchy.  Probably
this won’t reduce confusion, but rather increase confusion.

2015-03-10 20:41 GMT, Bryce Nesbitt :
> I'm seeking comments on adding "palm" to the leaf types
> at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:leaf_type
>
> A rendering engine can equate palm and "broadleaved".  Mappers are mapping
> palms
> very frequently, and having this key name I think would reduce confusion.
>


-- 
Lukas Sommer

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


[Tagging] Leaf type of "palm" for leaf_type

2015-03-10 Thread Bryce Nesbitt
I'm seeking comments on adding "palm" to the leaf types
at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:leaf_type

A rendering engine can equate palm and "broadleaved".  Mappers are mapping
palms
very frequently, and having this key name I think would reduce confusion.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging