Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Bob Kerr via Tagging]

Hi,

Mapping areas for Open Defecation may be a little tricky in the web editor but 
no problem in JOSM. In many slums Open Defecation Areas(ODA) can be a lot 
bigger than the size of a house. Individual nodes would be used in places like 
between houses or dead ends. Some areas are so big they have become permanent. 
This is why I think the landuse tag is relevant to this situation. I can 
understand referencing google maps but their mapping in areas where they don’t 
get revenue is not that great.

Cheers

Bob

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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

>From what I have seen in an open defecation google image search I got to
the impression we cannot map these as landuse features. I can understand
someone could draw a map and mark the "open defecation areas", on a city
scale, but likely not on a street scale, these are not punctual features
like toilets, nor are they clearly delimited areas. How would it be
verifiable, especially the borders will likely be soft/fuzzy borders and
not suitable for a representation with polygons in the OSM data model.

We could do it the other way round: map which buildings don't have toilets,
but this would require a very fine grained survey and might also raise
privacy concerns.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Warin]

On 11/09/19 15:47, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:




11 Sep 2019, 01:54 by pla16...@gmail.com:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 at 23:41, Graeme Fitzpatrick
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Would it need a multipolygon? My impression of the ODA is an
open patch of ground in / beside a residential area. If that
is the case, wouldn't it be much simpler to just mark a new
area in as landuse=o_d_a? (accept it wouldn't be abbreviated)


Overlapping landuse often works, but only because the carto people
juggle z-indexes
to make it work.  They're not overly happy doing that, I believe.

well, reality is that sometimes area
is actually both tree-covered area and
for example university or residential area.


Trees are a land cover, not necessarily a land use.

Universities and residential areas are a land use.


It also doesn't always
work well: if ever you've put a pond in a wood without a
multipolygon you get
waterlogged trees.

this is intentional to encourage correct
mapping of tree-covered areas.


I wish there was more rendering that showed errors.


  It also makes database queries somewhat more simpler if you're
asking what is at point A and you get one answer rather than two
answers, or one of
two answers chosen at random.

note that in many cases getting two
answers correctly represents reality

Or even 3..
Land cover e.g sand
Land use and e.g. quarry
Land form e.g. dune



  A multipolygon is a little more work for the mapper,
but not much more.

Now I expect both the carto and db people to tell me I'm wrong
about that.  If they do,
I'll just point out that it's not wrong to use a multipolygon for this

and in even more cases multipolygon
should be used


Many people have problems with multipolygon relations..
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Mateusz Konieczny]

11 Sep 2019, 01:54 by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 at 23:41, Graeme Fitzpatrick <> graemefi...@gmail.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>>
>> Would it need a multipolygon? My impression of the ODA is an open patch of 
>> ground in / beside a residential area. If that is the case, wouldn't it be 
>> much simpler to just mark a new area in as landuse=o_d_a? (accept it 
>> wouldn't be abbreviated) 
>>
>
> Overlapping landuse often works, but only because the carto people juggle 
> z-indexes
> to make it work.  They're not overly happy doing that, I believe. 
>
well, reality is that sometimes area
is actually both tree-covered area and
for example university or residential area.
> It also doesn't always
> work well: if ever you've put a pond in a wood without a multipolygon you get
> waterlogged trees. 
>
this is intentional to encourage correct
mapping of tree-covered areas.
>   It also makes database queries somewhat more simpler if you're
> asking what is at point A and you get one answer rather than two answers, or 
> one of
> two answers chosen at random.
>
note that in many cases getting two
answers correctly represents reality
>
>   A multipolygon is a little more work for the mapper,
> but not much more.
>
> Now I expect both the carto and db people to tell me I'm wrong about that.  
> If they do,
> I'll just point out that it's not wrong to use a multipolygon for this
>
and in even more cases multipolygon
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Overlapping “landuse=“ is fine when it represents reality correctly. For
example, many city centres are both residential and commercial or
commercial and retail, when the buildings are mixed use.

Similarly, if you are micro mapping private residential lawns with
landuse=grass, or residential gardens with leisure=garden, these do not
need to be excluded from the residential landuse. (Not that I would waste
time on mapping private lawns myself, but if you want to...)

-Joseph

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 7:56 AM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 at 23:41, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Would it need a multipolygon? My impression of the ODA is an open patch
>> of ground in / beside a residential area. If that is the case, wouldn't it
>> be much simpler to just mark a new area in as landuse=o_d_a? (accept it
>> wouldn't be abbreviated)
>>
>
> Overlapping landuse often works, but only because the carto people juggle
> z-indexes
> to make it work.  They're not overly happy doing that, I believe.  It also
> doesn't always
> work well: if ever you've put a pond in a wood without a multipolygon you
> get
> waterlogged trees.   It also makes database queries somewhat more simpler
> if you're
> asking what is at point A and you get one answer rather than two answers,
> or one of
> two answers chosen at random.  A multipolygon is a little more work for
> the mapper,
> but not much more.
>
> Now I expect both the carto and db people to tell me I'm wrong about
> that.  If they do,
> I'll just point out that it's not wrong to use a multipolygon for this.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 at 23:41, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Would it need a multipolygon? My impression of the ODA is an open patch of
> ground in / beside a residential area. If that is the case, wouldn't it be
> much simpler to just mark a new area in as landuse=o_d_a? (accept it
> wouldn't be abbreviated)
>

Overlapping landuse often works, but only because the carto people juggle
z-indexes
to make it work.  They're not overly happy doing that, I believe.  It also
doesn't always
work well: if ever you've put a pond in a wood without a multipolygon you
get
waterlogged trees.   It also makes database queries somewhat more simpler
if you're
asking what is at point A and you get one answer rather than two answers,
or one of
two answers chosen at random.  A multipolygon is a little more work for the
mapper,
but not much more.

Now I expect both the carto and db people to tell me I'm wrong about that.
If they do,
I'll just point out that it's not wrong to use a multipolygon for this.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 04:09, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 at 18:48, Bob Kerr via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> I did consider using the toilet tag, unfortunately there is no toilet and
>> it would give the area a feeling of respectability. If it is piled high
>> with plastic bags, assorted rubbish and human piss and shit then it is more
>> a sign that they need a toilet. It would definitely need a different
>> symbol. I was thinking of a squatting man symbol
>>
>
> True.  I'd hate to go to what the map led me to believe was a public
> toilet and find it was
> actually one of these things.
>

"Slightly" tongue in cheek, but render the area in a light - mid brown
colour, with a regular pattern of
https://www.flaticon.com/free-icons/poop icons
across it (similar to dog-parks, forested areas & so on) ? :-)


>
>>  Maybe “landuse=open_defecation_area” would be more appropriate but that
>> may interfere with other land use tags.
>>
>
> Not really a problem.  Turn the existing landuse=whatever into the outer
> of a multipolygon
> and add landuse=open_defecation_area as an inner of the multipolygon.
> It's not that hard
> to do, especially as iD has made it a lot easier to cut and paste tags
> between objects.
>

Would it need a multipolygon? My impression of the ODA is an open patch of
ground in / beside a residential area. If that is the case, wouldn't it be
much simpler to just mark a new area in as landuse=o_d_a? (accept it
wouldn't be abbreviated)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 at 18:48, Bob Kerr via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

I did consider using the toilet tag, unfortunately there is no toilet and
> it would give the area a feeling of respectability. If it is piled high
> with plastic bags, assorted rubbish and human piss and shit then it is more
> a sign that they need a toilet. It would definitely need a different
> symbol. I was thinking of a squatting man symbol
>

True.  I'd hate to go to what the map led me to believe was a public toilet
and find it was
actually one of these things.

>
>  Maybe “landuse=open_defecation_area” would be more appropriate but that
> may interfere with other land use tags.
>

Not really a problem.  Turn the existing landuse=whatever into the outer of
a multipolygon
and add landuse=open_defecation_area as an inner of the multipolygon.  It's
not that hard
to do, especially as iD has made it a lot easier to cut and paste tags
between objects.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Bob Kerr via Tagging]

Hi,

I agree with you, that is why I need everyone’s input before making the proposal

I did consider using the toilet tag, unfortunately there is no toilet and it 
would give the area a feeling of respectability. If it is piled high with 
plastic bags, assorted rubbish and human piss and shit then it is more a sign 
that they need a toilet. It would definitely need a different symbol. I was 
thinking of a squatting man symbol

 Maybe “landuse=open_defecation_area” would be more appropriate but that may 
interfere with other land use tags. So I still lean towards open_defecation=yes

Thoughts?

Cheers

Bob


> On 10 Sep 2019, at 12:58, Jez Nicholson  wrote:
> 
> You are wanting to tag something that is identifiable on-the-ground. It could 
> be of great social value. What's not to like? The question is more about the 
> detail rather than whether it should happen.
> 
> Has there been any discussion about 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets applying (or not) 
> to an open area?
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 10:17 AM Bob Kerr via Tagging 
>>  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Apologies if I started this conversation on the HOT list instead of here. I 
>> have been away for a while and my protocol is rusty.
>> 
>> I believe that Watsan will stand for Water/Sanitation. It was probably an 
>> experiment by someone new. 
>> 
>> I also stated that 850 million people open defecate, but they are likely to 
>> use 10 different places a year. This was an unclear guesstimate. Apologies
>> 
>> Proper Details here
>> 
>> https://www.unicef.org/wash/files/UNICEF_Game_plan_to_end_open_defecation_2018.pdf
>> 
>> For UN Sustainable development goal 6
>> 
>> https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/sdg6
>> 
>> There is a community of people that are interested in hygiene: they are 
>> inspired by the famous broad street pump that was the first time cholera was 
>> spread by dirty water
>> 
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak
>> 
>> This was made possible because they had a map.
>> 
>> My inspiration is that if there is a map of Open Defication Areas(ODA) then 
>> it will inspire communities to do something about it.
>> 
>> My personal favourite is using solar power to dry the faeces reducing the 
>> pathogen load, then burning it in a low oxygen environment to kill the last 
>> pathogens at 600C, this makes biochar/charcol. This makes a great soil 
>> additive, it has a large surface area, absorbs water and doesn’t degrade. 
>> This is carbon sequestration. Urine which is sterile makes an excellent 
>> fertiliser.
>> 
>> Before this I need Open Defecation = yes for an area and a point rendered on 
>> the humanitarian Openstreetmap tile set. I know that people will be inspired 
>> to make this map and therefore add to the rest of the important features of 
>> the map.
>> 
>> I am happy to make the proposal but I wanted to check if it is acceptable to 
>> the community first.
>> 
>> shall I go ahead with the proposal?
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Jez Nicholson]

You are wanting to tag something that is identifiable on-the-ground. It
could be of great social value. What's not to like? The question is more
about the detail rather than whether it should happen.

Has there been any discussion about
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets applying (or not)
to an open area?

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 10:17 AM Bob Kerr via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Apologies if I started this conversation on the HOT list instead of here.
> I have been away for a while and my protocol is rusty.
>
> I believe that Watsan will stand for Water/Sanitation. It was probably an
> experiment by someone new.
>
> I also stated that 850 million people open defecate, but they are likely
> to use 10 different places a year. This was an unclear guesstimate.
> Apologies
>
> Proper Details here
>
>
> https://www.unicef.org/wash/files/UNICEF_Game_plan_to_end_open_defecation_2018.pdf
>
> For UN Sustainable development goal 6
>
> https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/sdg6
>
> There is a community of people that are interested in hygiene: they are
> inspired by the famous broad street pump that was the first time cholera
> was spread by dirty water
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak
>
> This was made possible because they had a map.
>
> My inspiration is that if there is a map of Open Defication Areas(ODA)
> then it will inspire communities to do something about it.
>
> My personal favourite is using solar power to dry the faeces reducing the
> pathogen load, then burning it in a low oxygen environment to kill the last
> pathogens at 600C, this makes biochar/charcol. This makes a great soil
> additive, it has a large surface area, absorbs water and doesn’t degrade.
> This is carbon sequestration. Urine which is sterile makes an excellent
> fertiliser.
>
> Before this I need Open Defecation = yes for an area and a point rendered
> on the humanitarian Openstreetmap tile set. I know that people will be
> inspired to make this map and therefore add to the rest of the important
> features of the map.
>
> I am happy to make the proposal but I wanted to check if it is acceptable
> to the community first.
>
> shall I go ahead with the proposal?
>
> Cheers
>
> Bob
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Bob Kerr via Tagging]

Hi,

Apologies if I started this conversation on the HOT list instead of here. I 
have been away for a while and my protocol is rusty.

I believe that Watsan will stand for Water/Sanitation. It was probably an 
experiment by someone new. 

I also stated that 850 million people open defecate, but they are likely to use 
10 different places a year. This was an unclear guesstimate. Apologies

Proper Details here

https://www.unicef.org/wash/files/UNICEF_Game_plan_to_end_open_defecation_2018.pdf

For UN Sustainable development goal 6

https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/sdg6

There is a community of people that are interested in hygiene: they are 
inspired by the famous broad street pump that was the first time cholera was 
spread by dirty water

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak

This was made possible because they had a map.

My inspiration is that if there is a map of Open Defication Areas(ODA) then it 
will inspire communities to do something about it.

My personal favourite is using solar power to dry the faeces reducing the 
pathogen load, then burning it in a low oxygen environment to kill the last 
pathogens at 600C, this makes biochar/charcol. This makes a great soil 
additive, it has a large surface area, absorbs water and doesn’t degrade. This 
is carbon sequestration. Urine which is sterile makes an excellent fertiliser.

Before this I need Open Defecation = yes for an area and a point rendered on 
the humanitarian Openstreetmap tile set. I know that people will be inspired to 
make this map and therefore add to the rest of the important features of the 
map.

I am happy to make the proposal but I wanted to check if it is acceptable to 
the community first.

shall I go ahead with the proposal?

Cheers

Bob


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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas Add disused or abandoned

[Warin]

One important thought.

Past open defecation areas will need to remain mapped... but not as 
areas in use.


I think these are clearly life cycle tags .. but

disused does not appeal as it is unlikely that it could be used again 
until quite some time has past (pun sorry)


abandoned might be better. 'abandoned:open_defecation_area=yes'???

Thoughts?



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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Mateusz Konieczny]

9 Sep 2019, 10:12 by jez.nichol...@gmail.com:

> A 'watsan:' namespace appears unnecessary unless these are areas specifically 
> sponsored by Watsan.
>
Even in that case it would be unwanted,
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Warin]

On 09/09/19 18:20, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 09.09.19 02:37, Warin wrote:

Quote: "Open Defecation, people going to the toilet in the open,
specially in dense urban areas. Open defecation areas ODA are use by
about 850 million people. If they each use 10 different areas a year
then that is 8.5 billion areas."

I don't follow that logic. If the 300k inhabitants of my city each use a
bus stop 100 times per year, then that means our city has 30 million bus
stops?



Good point.
I think what occurs is that an area is used until it reaches 'end of life' and 
so a new area is then used. Could happen 10 times a year.

How many people use the one area ? I have no idea. In dense urban areas there 
would have to be a few people using the one place?

I do know that in some areas of the world a farmers family will defecate in 
their fields,
I think they are not constantly in one area but distribute the waste so as not 
to swamp one place.



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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 09.09.19 02:37, Warin wrote:
> Quote: "Open Defecation, people going to the toilet in the open,
> specially in dense urban areas. Open defecation areas ODA are use by
> about 850 million people. If they each use 10 different areas a year
> then that is 8.5 billion areas."

I don't follow that logic. If the 300k inhabitants of my city each use a
bus stop 100 times per year, then that means our city has 30 million bus
stops?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Jez Nicholson]

A 'watsan:' namespace appears unnecessary unless these are areas
specifically sponsored by Watsan.

and I noticed a typo/autocorrect from Warin "...posting on the HOT list is
for Open *Deification* Areas" which may lead to the creation of gods rather
than other items.

On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 3:40 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 09/09/19 11:23, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > Would you also tag the area as hazardous / contaminated?
>
> Unfortunately I think that is a default condition. All the more reason
> to map them with suitable tags.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Warin]

On 09/09/19 11:23, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Would you also tag the area as hazardous / contaminated?


Unfortunately I think that is a default condition. All the more reason 
to map them with suitable tags.


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Re: [Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Would you also tag the area as hazardous / contaminated?

Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] Open Defecation Areas

[Warin]

From  a current posting on the HOT list is for Open Deification Areas.


Quote: "Open Defecation, people going to the toilet in the open, 
specially in dense urban areas. Open defecation areas ODA are use by 
about 850 million people. If they each use 10 different areas a year 
then that is 8.5 billion areas."


Taginfo has 53 uses of watsan:open_defecation_area=yes, no wiki. Most use in 
Africa. just east nor east of Nairobi.

Is this the 'best' tag to use?

Would 'open_defecation_area=yes' be better?

And I'd add a wiki page ..

There seems to be little consideration by HOT on asking the tagging group nor 
on documenting the tags they use.
Possibly this comes from past results of these contacts. I have very thick skin.




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