Re: [Tagging] Orchards and their crops

[Jerry Clough (SK53)]

Replies in-line:
On 16/09/2015 06:33, johnw wrote:



On Sep 15, 2015, at 6:44 PM, Jerry Clough - OSM > wrote:


Hi John,

No there is nothing I'm aware of which discriminates anywhere between 
cultivated pears in general (/Pyrus communis/) & specific cultivars 
('Conference' ). 
Cultivar just is shorthand for "cultivated variety" so of course 
there is no hierarchy variety=>cultivar.



I guess I was looking for an idea of where people draw the lines 
between the trees, like we can with potatoes and sweet potatoes. I 
know there are many many kinds of both, but usually they can easily be 
divided into two groups, because we can say that a potato and a sweet 
potato are commonly referred to by those two separate names, and 
usually not confused with each other by the people that grow them and 
consume them.


Sweet Potatoes & Potatoes are completely different things: different 
plant families (Convolvulacae vs Solanaceae), different origin as a 
cultivated plant (Central America vs Andes), different method of 
cultivation, they have in common that they are root vegetables. When I'm 
buying potatoes in the supermarket I pay a great deal of attention to 
the variety: King Edwards have very different properties from Desiree or 
Maris Piper. The 'Lumper' variety is historically important because of 
the Irish Potato famine, as it was this variety's susceptibility to 
/Phythophora /which was the proximate cause of the famine. (See for 
example Salaman's /The History/ /& Social Influence of the Potato/ 
 
, and late works on the same subject).




I am very comfortable throwing all grapes into “grapevines”  or all 
oranges into “orange_trees” - but I don’t know about some obviously 
different fruits that share the same words - Asian pears look 
different, taste different - and most importantly - not considered a 
“pear” by the people that grow them - “pears” are “western pears” to 
them.  So I feel comfortable saying that having “pear_trees” and 
“sand_pear_trees” is a good idea.


Hmm, not all grapes are the same. In NY state and elsewhere in the NE of 
the US, grapes are grown which are native to North America 
. The vast majority of 
grapes grown for fruit and wine-making are however /Vitis vinifera/. 
Similarly your pears are different species not varieties.


But when it comes to all the other trees I have never heard of until I 
was cleaning up that list (is a "Governor’s plum" a plum? Is a 
 “Custard Apple” an Apple?), I was looking to see if there is some 
known way of putting the trees into usable categories or types for 
mapping without having people suggest them one by one - otherwise 
we’ll get odd regional or slang names - or things possibly grouped by 
distant mappers who don’t understand the nuances - like me with some 
of these trees.



Javbw


For these types of differences I think it is important to be aware that 
things are different, and not try and subsume them in some artificial 
category.  We're still living with early American colonists calling 
things Robins, Blackbirds and Sparrows, when they weren't. In general 
wikipedia is your friend here!


The whole point of taxon/species tags is to allow much more precise 
tagging than is possible, say with the trees tag. Even in the UK an oak 
wood may be made up of one of 2 species, and we have a very impoverished 
set of trees. There are not mutually exclusive, although one idea of 
taxon was to allow any taxonomic level to be used. Thus I'm fine with 
trees=pear_trees and taxon=Pyrus pyrifolia for Asian Pear (I would 
always recommend using taxon:en or taxon:ja to add a vernacular name as 
well) and trees=pear_trees and taxon=Pyrus communis for the Common Pear.


Jerry

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Re: [Tagging] Orchards and their crops

[johnw]

> On Sep 15, 2015, at 6:44 PM, Jerry Clough - OSM  wrote:
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> No there is nothing I'm aware of which discriminates anywhere between 
> cultivated pears in general (Pyrus communis) & specific cultivars 
> ('Conference' ). Cultivar just 
> is shorthand for "cultivated variety" so of course there is no hierarchy 
> variety=>cultivar.


I guess I was looking for an idea of where people draw the lines between the 
trees, like we can with potatoes and sweet potatoes. I know there are many many 
kinds of both, but usually they can easily be divided into two groups, because 
we can say that a potato and a sweet potato are commonly referred to by those 
two separate names, and usually not confused with each other by the people that 
grow them and consume them. 

I am very comfortable throwing all grapes into “grapevines”  or all oranges 
into “orange_trees” - but I don’t know about some obviously different fruits 
that share the same words - Asian pears look different, taste different - and 
most importantly - not considered a “pear” by the people that grow them - 
“pears” are “western pears” to them.  So I feel comfortable saying that having 
“pear_trees” and “sand_pear_trees” is a good idea. 

But when it comes to all the other trees I have never heard of until I was 
cleaning up that list (is a "Governor’s plum" a plum? Is a  “Custard Apple” an 
Apple?), I was looking to see if there is some known way of putting the trees 
into usable categories or types for mapping without having people suggest them 
one by one - otherwise we’ll get odd regional or slang names - or things 
possibly grouped by distant mappers who don’t understand the nuances - like me 
with some of these trees. 


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Re: [Tagging] Orchards and their crops

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Sep 15, 2015, at 5:27 PM, Jerry Clough - OSM  wrote:
> 
> our next problem is to identify the cultivars: not easy with cherries in 
> Japan.

So there is nothing between

"This is a pear"

And

"This is the very specific cultivar of this variety of this pear.

?

It looks like ill be requesting some more tree types then. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] Orchards and their crops

[Jerry Clough - OSM]

Hi John,
This is pretty much the type of situation which the taxon tag is meant to cope 
with: current tagging says it's an apple orchard, with taxon we can show that 
it's one for Bramley's or the cider apples loved by RichardF.
"taxon=Malus domestica 'Bramley's Seedling'"
This can be used with species & genus too; but most useful is the usage widely 
used by the Vienna tree import:
 "taxon:cultivar=Bramley's Seedling" 
(in this case the single quotes obligatory in the formal name are not needed 
because all cultivar names require them. This can be used standalone, on the 
basis that trees=apple_trees is a synonym of species|taxon=Malus domestica.
Your next problem is to identify the cultivars: not easy with cherries in Japan.
Jerry
   From: johnw <jo...@mac.com>
 To: strategy and related tools Tag discussion <tagging@openstreetmap.org> 
 Sent: Tuesday, 15 September 2015, 0:52
 Subject: [Tagging] Orchards and their crops
   
I came across some mis-tagged orchards in Japan, and in the process of 
researching how to tag them correctly, I noticed some discrepancies in the EN 
and JA wiki pages for orchards, trees, and related things. the JA page for 
orchard includes the trees= definitions, for example. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dorchard   
Englishhttps://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JA:Tag:landuse%3Dorchard Japanese

My question to the group is how to deal with trees=* when it seems to be very 
generic (apple tree, pear tree, etc) and more specific kinds of crops (fuji 
apples, asian pears). 
crop=* for orchard was changed to trees=* - but how do we get more specific on 
what kind of fruit is grown? do we make a ton of different tree=* tags, or do 
we make generics and then specify the exact fruit produced through produce=* or 
some other tag? 
Also, someone has added a ton of trees to the JA list (and a few to the EN 
list), including cranberries - which are grown in a swampy bog - hardly an 
orchard. Should be at least in farmland+crop, possibly some form of wetlands. I 
cleaned up the entries on the ja page by added “trees” to the items, and 
striking out sugarcane and cranberry, but I didn’t delete any other entries. I 
didn’t touch the EN page. 
I can clean up the JA page to match the EN page, but I need to know how do deal 
with the trees and what they produce:  are the trees=* a very specific type of 
tree, or are they general - and how do we specify the exact type of fruit 
produced?  apples, oranges, pears, peaches, have regional varieties - and 
custard apples and asian pears (sand pears) may be considered so different from 
their normal varieties as to warrant their own tree and rendering. 
If I’m reading the english wiki pages for orchard=, trees= and produce= 
correctly, keeping the trees generic and the specific fruit in produce= seems 
to be right way. I added one example to the JA wiki page for asian pears: 
landuse=orchardtrees=pear_treesproduce=sand_pear  
so fuji apples would be 
landuse=orchardtrees=apple_treesproduce=fuji_apples 
Is this the right way to handle it, and should it be documented this way?
Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Orchards and their crops

[Jerry Clough - OSM]

Hi John,
No there is nothing I'm aware of which discriminates anywhere between 
cultivated pears in general (Pyrus communis) & specific cultivars 
('Conference'). Cultivar just is shorthand for "cultivated variety" so of 
course there is no hierarchy variety=>cultivar.
That's just the way gardeners & horticulturalists have evolved their naming 
over hundreds of years. (and for Japanese cherries it's worse as they have such 
a complicated heritage it is not possible to accurately assign them to a 
species, so they are formally known just with the genus & cultivar (Prunus 
'Kanzan' for example).
I suspect the kind of thing you want is related to some other, non-biological, 
property of the said orchard trees: such as colour, use (cooking apple, cider 
apple, perry pear, ornament). Or you are looking for properties which are 
biological, but not directly related to the biological classification (e.g., 
flowering time). If not then I can't help, and I'd be pretty sceptical that you 
can achieve a tagging mechanism that is genuinely useful given that the 
biological/horticultural one has 250+ years of refinement.
Jerry
  
|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| Conference pear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaA Conference pear is a 
variety of pear. |
|  |
| View on en.wikipedia.org | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |



|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| Prunus 'Kanzan' - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaPrunus 'Kanzan' (syn. 
'Kwanzan' or 'Sekiyama') is a flowering cherry cultivar. It is a deciduous tree 
that grows to between 8 and 12 metres high with an 8 metre spr... |
|  |
| View on en.wikipedia.org | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |


 From: John Willis <jo...@mac.com>
 To: Jerry Clough - OSM <sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Tag discussion, strategy and 
related tools" <tagging@openstreetmap.org> 
 Sent: Tuesday, 15 September 2015, 9:54
 Subject: Re: [Tagging] Orchards and their crops
   


Javbw

> On Sep 15, 2015, at 5:27 PM, Jerry Clough - OSM <sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> our next problem is to identify the cultivars: not easy with cherries in 
> Japan.

So there is nothing between

"This is a pear"

And

"This is the very specific cultivar of this variety of this pear.

?

It looks like ill be requesting some more tree types then. 



Javbw. 

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[Tagging] Orchards and their crops

[johnw]

I came across some mis-tagged orchards in Japan, and in the process of 
researching how to tag them correctly, I noticed some discrepancies in the EN 
and JA wiki pages for orchards, trees, and related things. the JA page for 
orchard includes the trees= definitions, for example. 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dorchard 
   English
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JA:Tag:landuse%3Dorchard 
 Japanese

My question to the group is how to deal with trees=* when it seems to be very 
generic (apple tree, pear tree, etc) and more specific kinds of crops (fuji 
apples, asian pears). 

crop=* for orchard was changed to trees=* - but how do we get more specific on 
what kind of fruit is grown? do we make a ton of different tree=* tags, or do 
we make generics and then specify the exact fruit produced through produce=* or 
some other tag? 

Also, someone has added a ton of trees to the JA list (and a few to the EN 
list), including cranberries - which are grown in a swampy bog - hardly an 
orchard. Should be at least in farmland+crop, possibly some form of wetlands. I 
cleaned up the entries on the ja page by added “trees” to the items, and 
striking out sugarcane and cranberry, but I didn’t delete any other entries. I 
didn’t touch the EN page. 

I can clean up the JA page to match the EN page, but I need to know how do deal 
with the trees and what they produce:  are the trees=* a very specific type of 
tree, or are they general - and how do we specify the exact type of fruit 
produced?  apples, oranges, pears, peaches, have regional varieties - and 
custard apples and asian pears (sand pears) may be considered so different from 
their normal varieties as to warrant their own tree and rendering. 

If I’m reading the english wiki pages for orchard=, trees= and produce= 
correctly, keeping the trees generic and the specific fruit in produce= seems 
to be right way. I added one example to the JA wiki page for asian pears: 

landuse=orchard
trees=pear_trees
produce=sand_pear  

so fuji apples would be 

landuse=orchard
trees=apple_trees
produce=fuji_apples 

Is this the right way to handle it, and should it be documented this way?

Javbw___
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