Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[European Water Project]

Hi Martin,

I agree with you on one point.

The default for "amenity =drinking_water"  and "drinking_water=yes" should
definitely be free water. I also believe the same should hold  be for
"drinking_water:refill = yes".

I am not a big fan of meta data and poorly maintained data. Unless there is
a use for the price data for someone, eventually it will get stale-
especially with the economic difficulty so many cafes and restaurants are
facing.

Quality and accuracy of data was one of the main reasons our project has
swiftly migrated from Wikidata to OSM.

Best regards,

Stuart


On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 10:22 Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> Am Mi., 11. März 2020 um 04:25 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> drinking_water:refill:fee=no/yes/0..9
>>
>> >>  I don't think the third tag value "0,9" is easily mappible as one
>> needs to have access to the menu to get the price data. a mapper should
>> be able to map without speaking the local language.
>>
>> Also, the price data might quickly become inaccurate.
>>
>> Free vs. Fee should be inherent to the network...
>>
>
>
> The amount if fee may indeed by volatile, but it is often mapped, for
> example for parkings, and I do not see how an old information about the
> amount would be worse than a binary yes/no information (if you know the
> price was 50ct 3 years ago you might deduce it is still somewhere near
> that, or if you see it was 1 ¥€$ 10 years ago, it is like seeing it was
> "yes" 10 years ago. It's generally interesting not only to get the stored
> information, but also meta information (e.g. how old is the information).
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
> PS: for me the most important part is that amenity=drinking_water means
> without fee by default and it's definitions do not have to be reconsidered
> in the light of the new drinking_water:refill-scheme and tags.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 11. März 2020 um 04:25 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>:

> Hi Martin,
>
> drinking_water:refill:fee=no/yes/0..9
>
> >>  I don't think the third tag value "0,9" is easily mappible as one
> needs to have access to the menu to get the price data. a mapper should
> be able to map without speaking the local language.
>
> Also, the price data might quickly become inaccurate.
>
> Free vs. Fee should be inherent to the network...
>


The amount if fee may indeed by volatile, but it is often mapped, for
example for parkings, and I do not see how an old information about the
amount would be worse than a binary yes/no information (if you know the
price was 50ct 3 years ago you might deduce it is still somewhere near
that, or if you see it was 1 ¥€$ 10 years ago, it is like seeing it was
"yes" 10 years ago. It's generally interesting not only to get the stored
information, but also meta information (e.g. how old is the information).

Cheers
Martin

PS: for me the most important part is that amenity=drinking_water means
without fee by default and it's definitions do not have to be reconsidered
in the light of the new drinking_water:refill-scheme and tags.
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[European Water Project]

Hi Martin,

drinking_water:refill:fee=no/yes/0..9

>>  I don't think the third tag value "0,9" is easily mappible as one needs
to have access to the menu to get the price data. a mapper should be able
to map without speaking the local language.

Also, the price data might quickly become inaccurate.

Free vs. Fee should be inherent to the network...


On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 01:31 Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 10. Mar 2020, at 17:37, European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  ==> drinking_water:refill = . So yes, means free and for
> everyone, and fee means there is a charge.
>
>
> what about
> drinking_water:refill:fee=no/yes/0..9
>
> Cheers Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Mar 2020, at 17:37, European Water Project 
>  wrote:
> 
>  ==> drinking_water:refill = . So yes, means free and for 
> everyone, and fee means there is a charge. 

what about
drinking_water:refill:fee=no/yes/0..9

Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[European Water Project]

Hi Paul,

Good points !

What do you think about modifying the current tag which just was approved
to have three values?

 ==> drinking_water:refill = . So yes, means free and for
everyone, and fee means there is a charge.

I apologize for not having foreseen this tag usage case during the original
proposal process.

Best regards,

Stuart



On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 17:14, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 15:13, European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Your alternative proposal for drinking_water:fee=yes for establishments
>> which charge for water bottle refill seems a good one.
>>
>
> Seems a bad one to me.  There are establishments which charge for drinking
> water
> brought to your table in a glass for consumption on the premises, and are
> tagged with drinking_water=yes.  I'd assume drinking_water:fee=yes to apply
> to drinking_water=yes not to drinking_water:refill=yes.
>
> What happens if an establishment has drinking_water=yes and
> drinking_water:refill=yes?  How are we to indicate that there is a fee for
> drinking
> water (in a glass) but not for refilling a bottle?  How are we to indicate
> that there
> is no fee for drinking water (in a glass) but there is a fee for refilling
> a bottle?
> How are we to indicate there is a fee for both?
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 15:13, European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Your alternative proposal for drinking_water:fee=yes for establishments
> which charge for water bottle refill seems a good one.
>

Seems a bad one to me.  There are establishments which charge for drinking
water
brought to your table in a glass for consumption on the premises, and are
tagged with drinking_water=yes.  I'd assume drinking_water:fee=yes to apply
to drinking_water=yes not to drinking_water:refill=yes.

What happens if an establishment has drinking_water=yes and
drinking_water:refill=yes?  How are we to indicate that there is a fee for
drinking
water (in a glass) but not for refilling a bottle?  How are we to indicate
that there
is no fee for drinking water (in a glass) but there is a fee for refilling
a bottle?
How are we to indicate there is a fee for both?

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[European Water Project]

Hi Joseph,

I checked and there are currently 6 nodes and 1 way with
drinking_water:fee=yes ...  which is not necessarily a problem.

What would you think about "drinking_water:refill:fee=yes" as a standalone
tag with its own key page ?   I had not foreseen the value of a refill
network which charged money before talking to Stephanie.  drinking_water:refill
=yes would be reserved for free establishments.

Best regards,

Stuart

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 16:11, European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Joseph,
>
> Yes, your understanding was absolutely correct. The current tag pair was
> developed for the purpose of mapping free refill points.
>
> Your alternative proposal for drinking_water:fee=yes for establishments
> which charge for water bottle refill seems a good one.
>
> How does one check to make sure there are no establishments with that
> namespace tag already ?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 13:07 Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
>
>> My understanding was that the new tag "drinking_water:refill=yes" was
>> going to imply that you can get water for free.
>>
>> "An establishment participates in a water refill network and will fill
>> up for free anyone's (paying customer or not) reusable bottle." - wiki
>> page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water:refill
>>
>> So if a cafe or gas station will see you water for $0.75, that's quite
>> different, and it would be incorrect to use
>> "drinking_water:refill=yes" + "drinking_water:refill:fee=yes",
>> according to your approved proposal and the documentation.
>>
>> But perhaps "drinking_water:fee=yes" could be proposed as an
>> alternative, for places that only sell water.
>>
>> - Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>> On 3/10/20, European Water Project 
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Jake,
>> >
>> >
>> > i strongly prefer paying 75 centimes for a ecologically sustainable
>> water
>> > bottle refill than being forced to buy a PET bottle filled with water
>> > because there is no alternative.
>> >
>> > Whether they survive or not is for the market to decide ... the end
>> result
>> > is less single-use plastic... which is our objective...
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Stuart
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 09:32 Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
>> > tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Is it worth adding drinking_water:refill:carbonated=yes/no,
>> >> drinking_water:refill:chilled=yes/no
>> >> and drinking_water:refill:alkaline=yes/no, etc (or
>> >> drinking_water:refill:types=carbonated/chilled/alkaline). Then fee can
>> be
>> >> based on which types of water is charged for?
>> >>
>> >> Personally I can’t see myself paying for still or chilled water, but I
>> >> would pay for carbonated.
>> >>
>> >> Info on alkaline water: https://www.enagic.com/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 10 Mar 2020, at 09:13, European Water Project <
>> >> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dear All,
>> >>
>> >> I have been in contact with Stephanie Dick from Zero Bouteilles
>> Plastique
>> >> (copied), based in Arles, France regarding tagging establishments in
>> >> OpenStreetMap offering water bottle refill for a small fee.   Stephanie
>> >> is
>> >> also involved in Zero Waste France.
>> >>
>> >> The rationale for including establishments in a refill network which
>> >> require a small payment is that they often need to add a cooling
>> fountain
>> >> or a fountain which offers fizzy water. Also allowing a store owner to
>> >> charge for water refills is often the only way to get them to stop
>> >> selling
>> >> plastic bottles.
>> >>
>> >> I suggest adding an third key within the drinking_water:refill
>> namespace,
>> >> "drinking_water:refill:fee=yes" for establishments which charge a small
>> >> fee
>> >> for water bottle refills.
>> >>
>> >> The requirement to have a sticker or a sign showing the inclusion in a
>> >> refill network or being an "independent" refiller is unchanged.
>> >>
>> >> If a tag is agreed, on our App we plan to differentiate between free
>> and
>> >> paying refill establishments using different colors.
>> >>
>> >> An example image of a water fountain in blue and a cafe in orange.
>> >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RxP8r-Vtl8nWFiCiZ_8wIWmo-ULb5fta
>> >>
>> >> Best regards,
>> >>
>> >> Stuart
>> >> ___
>> >> Tagging mailing list
>> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ___
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>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> >>
>> >
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[European Water Project]

Hi Joseph,

Yes, your understanding was absolutely correct. The current tag pair was
developed for the purpose of mapping free refill points.

Your alternative proposal for drinking_water:fee=yes for establishments
which charge for water bottle refill seems a good one.

How does one check to make sure there are no establishments with that
namespace tag already ?

Best regards,

Stuart





On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 13:07 Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> My understanding was that the new tag "drinking_water:refill=yes" was
> going to imply that you can get water for free.
>
> "An establishment participates in a water refill network and will fill
> up for free anyone's (paying customer or not) reusable bottle." - wiki
> page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water:refill
>
> So if a cafe or gas station will see you water for $0.75, that's quite
> different, and it would be incorrect to use
> "drinking_water:refill=yes" + "drinking_water:refill:fee=yes",
> according to your approved proposal and the documentation.
>
> But perhaps "drinking_water:fee=yes" could be proposed as an
> alternative, for places that only sell water.
>
> - Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On 3/10/20, European Water Project  wrote:
> > Hi Jake,
> >
> >
> > i strongly prefer paying 75 centimes for a ecologically sustainable water
> > bottle refill than being forced to buy a PET bottle filled with water
> > because there is no alternative.
> >
> > Whether they survive or not is for the market to decide ... the end
> result
> > is less single-use plastic... which is our objective...
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 09:32 Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
> > tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Is it worth adding drinking_water:refill:carbonated=yes/no,
> >> drinking_water:refill:chilled=yes/no
> >> and drinking_water:refill:alkaline=yes/no, etc (or
> >> drinking_water:refill:types=carbonated/chilled/alkaline). Then fee can
> be
> >> based on which types of water is charged for?
> >>
> >> Personally I can’t see myself paying for still or chilled water, but I
> >> would pay for carbonated.
> >>
> >> Info on alkaline water: https://www.enagic.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10 Mar 2020, at 09:13, European Water Project <
> >> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear All,
> >>
> >> I have been in contact with Stephanie Dick from Zero Bouteilles
> Plastique
> >> (copied), based in Arles, France regarding tagging establishments in
> >> OpenStreetMap offering water bottle refill for a small fee.   Stephanie
> >> is
> >> also involved in Zero Waste France.
> >>
> >> The rationale for including establishments in a refill network which
> >> require a small payment is that they often need to add a cooling
> fountain
> >> or a fountain which offers fizzy water. Also allowing a store owner to
> >> charge for water refills is often the only way to get them to stop
> >> selling
> >> plastic bottles.
> >>
> >> I suggest adding an third key within the drinking_water:refill
> namespace,
> >> "drinking_water:refill:fee=yes" for establishments which charge a small
> >> fee
> >> for water bottle refills.
> >>
> >> The requirement to have a sticker or a sign showing the inclusion in a
> >> refill network or being an "independent" refiller is unchanged.
> >>
> >> If a tag is agreed, on our App we plan to differentiate between free and
> >> paying refill establishments using different colors.
> >>
> >> An example image of a water fountain in blue and a cafe in orange.
> >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RxP8r-Vtl8nWFiCiZ_8wIWmo-ULb5fta
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Stuart
> >> ___
> >> Tagging mailing list
> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >>
> >
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[Joseph Eisenberg]

My understanding was that the new tag "drinking_water:refill=yes" was
going to imply that you can get water for free.

"An establishment participates in a water refill network and will fill
up for free anyone's (paying customer or not) reusable bottle." - wiki
page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water:refill

So if a cafe or gas station will see you water for $0.75, that's quite
different, and it would be incorrect to use
"drinking_water:refill=yes" + "drinking_water:refill:fee=yes",
according to your approved proposal and the documentation.

But perhaps "drinking_water:fee=yes" could be proposed as an
alternative, for places that only sell water.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 3/10/20, European Water Project  wrote:
> Hi Jake,
>
>
> i strongly prefer paying 75 centimes for a ecologically sustainable water
> bottle refill than being forced to buy a PET bottle filled with water
> because there is no alternative.
>
> Whether they survive or not is for the market to decide ... the end result
> is less single-use plastic... which is our objective...
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 09:32 Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> Is it worth adding drinking_water:refill:carbonated=yes/no,
>> drinking_water:refill:chilled=yes/no
>> and drinking_water:refill:alkaline=yes/no, etc (or
>> drinking_water:refill:types=carbonated/chilled/alkaline). Then fee can be
>> based on which types of water is charged for?
>>
>> Personally I can’t see myself paying for still or chilled water, but I
>> would pay for carbonated.
>>
>> Info on alkaline water: https://www.enagic.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 Mar 2020, at 09:13, European Water Project <
>> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I have been in contact with Stephanie Dick from Zero Bouteilles Plastique
>> (copied), based in Arles, France regarding tagging establishments in
>> OpenStreetMap offering water bottle refill for a small fee.   Stephanie
>> is
>> also involved in Zero Waste France.
>>
>> The rationale for including establishments in a refill network which
>> require a small payment is that they often need to add a cooling fountain
>> or a fountain which offers fizzy water. Also allowing a store owner to
>> charge for water refills is often the only way to get them to stop
>> selling
>> plastic bottles.
>>
>> I suggest adding an third key within the drinking_water:refill namespace,
>> "drinking_water:refill:fee=yes" for establishments which charge a small
>> fee
>> for water bottle refills.
>>
>> The requirement to have a sticker or a sign showing the inclusion in a
>> refill network or being an "independent" refiller is unchanged.
>>
>> If a tag is agreed, on our App we plan to differentiate between free and
>> paying refill establishments using different colors.
>>
>> An example image of a water fountain in blue and a cafe in orange.
>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RxP8r-Vtl8nWFiCiZ_8wIWmo-ULb5fta
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Stuart
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[European Water Project]

Hi Jake,


i strongly prefer paying 75 centimes for a ecologically sustainable water
bottle refill than being forced to buy a PET bottle filled with water
because there is no alternative.

Whether they survive or not is for the market to decide ... the end result
is less single-use plastic... which is our objective...

Best regards,

Stuart


On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 09:32 Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Is it worth adding drinking_water:refill:carbonated=yes/no,
> drinking_water:refill:chilled=yes/no
> and drinking_water:refill:alkaline=yes/no, etc (or
> drinking_water:refill:types=carbonated/chilled/alkaline). Then fee can be
> based on which types of water is charged for?
>
> Personally I can’t see myself paying for still or chilled water, but I
> would pay for carbonated.
>
> Info on alkaline water: https://www.enagic.com/
>
>
>
> On 10 Mar 2020, at 09:13, European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> I have been in contact with Stephanie Dick from Zero Bouteilles Plastique
> (copied), based in Arles, France regarding tagging establishments in
> OpenStreetMap offering water bottle refill for a small fee.   Stephanie is
> also involved in Zero Waste France.
>
> The rationale for including establishments in a refill network which
> require a small payment is that they often need to add a cooling fountain
> or a fountain which offers fizzy water. Also allowing a store owner to
> charge for water refills is often the only way to get them to stop selling
> plastic bottles.
>
> I suggest adding an third key within the drinking_water:refill namespace,
> "drinking_water:refill:fee=yes" for establishments which charge a small fee
> for water bottle refills.
>
> The requirement to have a sticker or a sign showing the inclusion in a
> refill network or being an "independent" refiller is unchanged.
>
> If a tag is agreed, on our App we plan to differentiate between free and
> paying refill establishments using different colors.
>
> An example image of a water fountain in blue and a cafe in orange.
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RxP8r-Vtl8nWFiCiZ_8wIWmo-ULb5fta
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

Is it worth adding drinking_water:refill:carbonated=yes/no, 
drinking_water:refill:chilled=yes/no and drinking_water:refill:alkaline=yes/no, 
etc (or drinking_water:refill:types=carbonated/chilled/alkaline). Then fee can 
be based on which types of water is charged for?

Personally I can’t see myself paying for still or chilled water, but I would 
pay for carbonated. 

Info on alkaline water: https://www.enagic.com/ 



> On 10 Mar 2020, at 09:13, European Water Project 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> I have been in contact with Stephanie Dick from Zero Bouteilles Plastique 
> (copied), based in Arles, France regarding tagging establishments in 
> OpenStreetMap offering water bottle refill for a small fee.   Stephanie is 
> also involved in Zero Waste France. 
> 
> The rationale for including establishments in a refill network which require 
> a small payment is that they often need to add a cooling fountain or a 
> fountain which offers fizzy water. Also allowing a store owner to charge for 
> water refills is often the only way to get them to stop selling plastic 
> bottles. 
> 
> I suggest adding an third key within the drinking_water:refill namespace, 
> "drinking_water:refill:fee=yes" for establishments which charge a small fee 
> for water bottle refills.  
> 
> The requirement to have a sticker or a sign showing the inclusion in a refill 
> network or being an "independent" refiller is unchanged. 
> 
> If a tag is agreed, on our App we plan to differentiate between free and 
> paying refill establishments using different colors. 
> 
> An example image of a water fountain in blue and a cafe in orange. 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RxP8r-Vtl8nWFiCiZ_8wIWmo-ULb5fta 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Stuart 
> ___
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[Tagging] Proposal drinking_water:refill:fee

[European Water Project]

Dear All,

I have been in contact with Stephanie Dick from Zero Bouteilles Plastique
(copied), based in Arles, France regarding tagging establishments in
OpenStreetMap offering water bottle refill for a small fee.   Stephanie is
also involved in Zero Waste France.

The rationale for including establishments in a refill network which
require a small payment is that they often need to add a cooling fountain
or a fountain which offers fizzy water. Also allowing a store owner to
charge for water refills is often the only way to get them to stop selling
plastic bottles.

I suggest adding an third key within the drinking_water:refill namespace,
"drinking_water:refill:fee=yes" for establishments which charge a small fee
for water bottle refills.

The requirement to have a sticker or a sign showing the inclusion in a
refill network or being an "independent" refiller is unchanged.

If a tag is agreed, on our App we plan to differentiate between free and
paying refill establishments using different colors.

An example image of a water fountain in blue and a cafe in orange.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RxP8r-Vtl8nWFiCiZ_8wIWmo-ULb5fta

Best regards,

Stuart
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