Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Jerry Clough (SK53)]

Because a guest house with a bar is different from a pub with rooms. At 
least in Britain only residents would be allowed to buy drinks at a 
guest house bar.


As an aside, there may be a problem here with br-en "guest house" and 
"Gasthof", the latter being better translated as br-en "inn". I would 
generally regard Pensionen as more akin to the British guest house.


The issue is far commoner in rural Spain where many bars & restaurants 
will have a sign "Habitaciones" outside. These will usually be decent en 
suite facilities on the floor above the restaurant/bar, comprising 2-3 
rooms. There is often a separate door largely to allow access when the 
main facility is closed. These are very much ancillary features of the 
bar/restaurant to the extent that an overnight stay is sold from the 
till exactly like a beer (and either has to be payed for in advance or a 
passport/id card left until one has payed). These fit the 
accomodation=yes tagging very well. Some high-end restaurants in the UK 
may have a limited number of rooms too, such as Sat Bains 
http://www.restaurantsatbains.com/, usually rooms are available only for 
customers of the restaurant.


Larger places in Spain usually called Hostales are often also run from a 
bar, but will have many more rooms, distinct entrance/foyer areas and 
will be distinctly signed as such externally. I map these as tourism=hotel.


Jerry

On 28/09/2015 15:24, Georg Feddern wrote:

Am 28.09.2015 um 14:46 schrieb Andy Townsend:


Depends on the pub, I'd say.  Some places are both a hotel and a pub, 
some have essentially separate "hotel" and "pub" bits (for which 2 
nodes within a building might work)  and some (e.g. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/75844692 ) are pubs that do 
accommodation, but not really hotels, so I'd use accommodation=yes 
for those.




Why not the already established tourism=guest_house for this B offer?

Regards,
Georg

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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-09-29 16:09 GMT+02:00 Jerry Clough (SK53) :

> Because a guest house with a bar is different from a pub with rooms. At
> least in Britain only residents would be allowed to buy drinks at a guest
> house bar.
>


+1



>
> As an aside, there may be a problem here with br-en "guest house" and
> "Gasthof", the latter being better translated as br-en "inn". I would
> generally regard Pensionen as more akin to the British guest house.
>


In German there is also "Gästehaus", which WP translates as boarding house,
but my dictionary as "guest house", which is quite different from a
"Gasthof" or "Gasthaus" because it is typically run by an institution or
company and used to accomodate official guests (e.g. universities have
them, also states, ...).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2015-09-28 at 16:25 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> Am 28.09.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Philip Barnes :
> 
> > > Is it acceptable to combine amenity=pub & tourism=hotel?
> > I think so, then whichever is searched will be returned. 
> 
> 
> In some cases I would prefer to have 2 different objects here, as
> many properties/attributes  of these may be different. E.g. do they
> have the same opening hours? The same entrance? The same phone
> number? The same name? The same operating business? Does the
> hotelstar rating (if any) apply to the pub? 
They do have the same entrance, the same phone number, the same opening
hours (at least to check-in). The bar staff will check you in at the
bar in between serving beer and the chances are your breakfast will be
served in the bar.
The hotel star rating wouldn't apply to the pub, although you could tag
if it has a GBG sticker on the door :).



> 
> Maybe it's not a problem (e.g. same name and operator, but different
> phone numbers and opening hours could be hotel:phone
> hotel:opening_hours), but if significant properties are different it
> would be better to use distinct osm objects.
You are imagining much bigger, urban, hotels than the usecase I am
thinking.


> 
> > 
> > The hotel also being the pub is very common.
> 
> 
> like sleeping on the tables or drinking in the beds? Surely they
> don't use the same physical space (e.g. ground floor vs. upper
> floor), but I agree that there are businesses that do both, run a pub
> and offer accommodation, and where the whole thing could be seen as
> one entity, maybe there is even room for a new tag, like amenity=inn?

Well you don't usually sleep in the bar, although happens occasionally
in my local :) Bedrooms are separate, but they will allow you to take a
beer to your room.


> There's also the word "tavern", Wikipedia en mentions that both, inn
> and tavern (which had become used interchangeably) had been replaced
> by "pub" ;-)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavern#Great_Britain

Both Inn and Tavern are not really in common useage, tavern tended to
apply to something in a town or city.

Adding a new tag, I think defeats the object, if you are looking for a
pub then you are unlikely to search for an inn.
> 
> Then there are also hotels with (even several) "pubs" and restaurants
> inside them.
> These cases are best mapped with a hotel object (polygon) and pub and
> restaurant objects inside it (IMHO).
For larger places I would agree, although large hotels have bars rather
than a pub.

An example where I have used this tagging 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/699950932

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

Am 28.09.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Philip Barnes :

>> Is it acceptable to combine amenity=pub & tourism=hotel?
> I think so, then whichever is searched will be returned. 


In some cases I would prefer to have 2 different objects here, as many 
properties/attributes  of these may be different. E.g. do they have the same 
opening hours? The same entrance? The same phone number? The same name? The 
same operating business? Does the hotelstar rating (if any) apply to the pub? 

Maybe it's not a problem (e.g. same name and operator, but different phone 
numbers and opening hours could be hotel:phone hotel:opening_hours), but if 
significant properties are different it would be better to use distinct osm 
objects.


> 
> The hotel also being the pub is very common.


like sleeping on the tables or drinking in the beds? Surely they don't use the 
same physical space (e.g. ground floor vs. upper floor), but I agree that there 
are businesses that do both, run a pub and offer accommodation, and where the 
whole thing could be seen as one entity, maybe there is even room for a new 
tag, like amenity=inn? There's also the word "tavern", Wikipedia en mentions 
that both, inn and tavern (which had become used interchangeably) had been 
replaced by "pub" ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavern#Great_Britain

Then there are also hotels with (even several) "pubs" and restaurants inside 
them.
These cases are best mapped with a hotel object (polygon) and pub and 
restaurant objects inside it (IMHO).

cheers 
Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Andy Townsend]

On 28/09/2015 15:24, Georg Feddern wrote:

Am 28.09.2015 um 14:46 schrieb Andy Townsend:


Depends on the pub, I'd say.  Some places are both a hotel and a pub, 
some have essentially separate "hotel" and "pub" bits (for which 2 
nodes within a building might work)  and some (e.g. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/75844692 ) are pubs that do 
accommodation, but not really hotels, so I'd use accommodation=yes 
for those.




Why not the already established tourism=guest_house for this B offer?


This particular example isn't really a guest house (or a B for that 
matter).  Handily, there's an example of a guest house just down the 
street at http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/185207730 .


So what's "guest-housy" about one vs "not-guest-housy" about the other?  
How about a quiet downstairs lounge in one vs a crowded bar full of 
welsh people trying to buy beer in the other, and a nicely maintained 
garden with some bee-hives in it vs a muddy area where the beer festival 
tent was?  FWIW the pub's an excellent pub and the guest-house is an 
excellent guest-house, but they're not really the same animal.  You 
could perhaps make a case for "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" or it's 
slightly less popular cousin "guest_house=bed_and_breakfast" for the 
pub, but that's a different argument.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Georg Feddern]

Am 28.09.2015 um 14:46 schrieb Andy Townsend:


Depends on the pub, I'd say.  Some places are both a hotel and a pub, 
some have essentially separate "hotel" and "pub" bits (for which 2 
nodes within a building might work)  and some (e.g. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/75844692 ) are pubs that do 
accommodation, but not really hotels, so I'd use accommodation=yes for 
those.




Why not the already established tourism=guest_house for this B offer?

Regards,
Georg

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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon Sep 28 12:09:29 2015 GMT+0100, Dave F. wrote:
> Hi
> 
> How should public houses (inns) that provide accommodation be tagged? 
> 'Accommodation=*' with only 249 examples doesn't appear to to be the tag 
> to use. Is it acceptable to combine amenity=pub & tourism=hotel?
> 
I think so, then whichever is searched will be returned. 

The hotel also being the pub is very common.

Phil (trigpoint) 
-- 
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[Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Dave F.]

Hi

How should public houses (inns) that provide accommodation be tagged? 
'Accommodation=*' with only 249 examples doesn't appear to to be the tag 
to use. Is it acceptable to combine amenity=pub & tourism=hotel?


Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Andy Townsend]

On 28/09/2015 12:45, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Mon Sep 28 12:09:29 2015 GMT+0100, Dave F. wrote:

Hi

How should public houses (inns) that provide accommodation be tagged?
'Accommodation=*' with only 249 examples doesn't appear to to be the tag
to use. Is it acceptable to combine amenity=pub & tourism=hotel?


I think so, then whichever is searched will be returned.

The hotel also being the pub is very common.

Phil (trigpoint)


Depends on the pub, I'd say.  Some places are both a hotel and a pub, 
some have essentially separate "hotel" and "pub" bits (for which 2 nodes 
within a building might work)  and some (e.g. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/75844692 ) are pubs that do 
accommodation, but not really hotels, so I'd use accommodation=yes for 
those.


Cheers,

Andy


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