Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com wrote: On Wed, 2015-03-11 at 20:14 -0700, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 7:21 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: In certain countries (such as the one I am in) the thick black line has a single purpose - private train lines. The zebra striped lines -carto uses are for national lines only (JR lines in Japan), and the thick black lines are for private railways (such as most of the Tokyo subway system) that run across the country. [...] -1 for thread hijacking, but +1 on the thought. There ARE regional differences in rendering preferences. -1, I like the idea of OSM maps being consistent on a worldwide basis. Roads in blue, green, red, orange, yellow, and white mean the same thing no matter what country we're in. Same with railroads for the most part. At most I would support one of the alternate styles being region-specific stylesheets, but definitely not at the expense of the style we have now that's consistent across the entire planet. That said, I wonder what Andy's opposition to rendering the colour tag on the Transport layer is... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
Consider that every major map provider does this (Japanese train lines, and sometimes icons like that stylized katakana te for post offices). Also highway shields. Although OSM-carto is not supposed to be consumed by end-users, it often is; moreover it could be serve as an example on how to implement that (in order to encourage other OSM rendering style authors to do so). Michał ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 6:11 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: This would be beneficial to all countries, especially of we want the maps to be used by the people who live there - we already argue that the local language should be used, even in places like Japan where almost all signs on the road [several million local road signs] are in both English and Japanese, so why shouldn't we use the iconography and basic color choices for major transportation features either? Isn't that the local language of the map? +10 to that. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On 17 March 2015 at 23:04, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: Although OSM-carto is not supposed to be consumed by end-users This is not correct. The purposes of the osm-carto style can be found here: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CARTOGRAPHY.md -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On Mar 17, 2015, at 4:55 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: That said, I wonder what Andy's opposition to rendering the colour tag on the Transport layer is... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Yes - there is a big difference between allowing different colored style sheets in each country and making OSM/carto devise a way to handle the color tag for railways and certain roads (maybe part of the line or casing is colored or something) and handling regional iconography for common places. This would be beneficial to all countries, especially of we want the maps to be used by the people who live there - we already argue that the local language should be used, even in places like Japan where almost all signs on the road [several million local road signs] are in both English and Japanese, so why shouldn't we use the iconography and basic color choices for major transportation features either? Isn't that the local language of the map? We handle languages, iconography and way color should be the same. Javbw.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
2015-03-13 4:09 GMT+01:00 David dban...@internode.on.net: I would support the idea of a regional style iff it turns out to be practicable. One, isolated example. One of the reasons i was given for the inability to render unsealed roads was that the preferred style, dashed infill, was already used for tunnels. I second the observation that the distinction of sealed / unsealed roads is very important (ignoring the surface tag also leads to a lot of mistagging (highway=track)), but I don't consider this a regional issue, it is important everywhere. What would be nice to regionalize are public transport icons, e.g. for subways / metro / light rail. These typically play an important role for identication with a place, and also serve for recognition. Some examples: http://mic-ro.com/metro/metrologos.html cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
-1, I like the idea of OSM maps being consistent on a worldwide basis. I would support the idea of a regional style iff it turns out to be practicable. One, isolated example. One of the reasons i was given for the inability to render unsealed roads was that the preferred style, dashed infill, was already used for tunnels. Where i live, there are many more unsealed roads than tunnels and their distinctive rendering is far more important. On the other hand, can we afford the effort of maintaining several constantly diverging stylesheets ? I was told to be silent on the matter until I could usefully contribute myself and have bookmarked a few pages but got no further. That might be the real question. David . Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com wrote: On Wed, 2015-03-11 at 20:14 -0700, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 7:21 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: In certain countries (such as the one I am in) the thick black line has a single purpose - private train lines. The zebra striped lines -carto uses are for national lines only (JR lines in Japan), and the thick black lines are for private railways (such as most of the Tokyo subway system) that run across the country. [...] -1 for thread hijacking, but +1 on the thought. There ARE regional differences in rendering preferences. -1, I like the idea of OSM maps being consistent on a worldwide basis. Roads in blue, green, red, orange, yellow, and white mean the same thing no matter what country we're in. Same with railroads for the most part. At most I would support one of the alternate styles being region-specific stylesheets, but definitely not at the expense of the style we have now that's consistent across the entire planet. -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 2:56 AM, SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk wrote: The standard map has an impossible job - trying to be a nice map, providing feedmap to mappers that an esoteric thing that they've just mapped is now present on the map and trying to work for everyone around the world regardless of country or urban / rural location. It's not going to the best representation of map data for Japan for the same reason that it can't be the best representation of map data for Englandor anywhere else - it's compromised by having to work internationally. That's not the only option. Current the world gets a compromise map, with heavy UK influence. It's technically possible to divide that, at least along fairly coarse boundaries. Draw dividing lines in the South China Sea, and the tile server could use a different stylesheet for Japan, for example. The Arctic and Antartic could gain a stylesheet that shows everything, for example, as there is less of a clutter issue. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On 12/03/2015 17:11, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: It's technically possible to divide that, at least along fairly coarse boundaries. (not that it's particularly relevant to the tagging list, but just in case anyone wasn't aware) that's what Mapquest already do: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=9/50.9714/1.3307layers=Q Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On Mar 12, 2015, at 6:56 PM, SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk wrote: The standard map has an impossible job - trying to be a nice map This is true, and thanks for linking to the resources to set up the server for a special version. However, what I would like to see implemented, I think, is not impossible. Martin mentioned that color can be mapped to a train line - why isn't it rendered? Setting the color to black for my train lines - even if that made the zebra black and dark grey - would be an easy step. Different cultures use different iconography for things - why can't a tag system for icon be set up to handle regional iconography? Japan uses a many pointed star for police - I should be able to tell OSM here is a reference to an icon to use and -carto can have an index of icons. This wouldn't solve issues like rendering of the trunk power lines, but as I've said the trunk lines are against the style sheet and should be softened anyway. Additional issues, like the rendering of multiple stop lights per intersection is fine for most countries, because roads are named. Most of Japan's roads are unnamed (almost everything below secondary), so navigation by counting lights and named signals is common, so understanding that regional change requests (that may not seem like a big deal) are sometimes crucial for map readability in an area (in this case, a single icon per intersection, with the name when labeled) I imagine each country has iconography and small issues that need to be worked out - that should be a major goal for OSM/-carto to natively support. There is support for multiple languages - why not multiple icons? There is no reason why some kind of regional flexibility can't be baked into the default -carto render. All the world mapping programs have to have this flexibility if they want popularity, why is OSM/carto different? Google Maps and Apple Maps are basically a single style sheet, but there are regional iconography differences. We should consider it a *basic requirement* of the tagging/style sheet to have similar flexibility. If I was a coder, rather than an old Mac Tech now teacher, I would love to learn the code, however I'm dependent on others in the community to create the code for such a system. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On 12/03/2015 21:11, John Willis wrote: On Mar 12, 2015, at 6:56 PM, SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk wrote: The standard map has an impossible job - trying to be a nice map This is true, and thanks for linking to the resources to set up the server for a special version. However, what I would like to see implemented, I think, is not impossible. I'd therefore suggest that you do exactly that! The current OSM stylesheet didn't just magic itself into existance - someone sweated blood to get the carto style to match the look of the preceding godawful-to-maintain osm.xml stylesheet, something that people (myself included) sometimes forget. However, now that it exists it's FAR more customisable than what went before. It's much easier to now say I think X feature should be Y colour (or Z width, or whatever) and to show a screenshot of a small area with that in place. That tends to be how things in OSM happen - someone says hey, let's do it this way - here's an example of something that I've done that's not quite finished, but shows what can be done. ... If I was a coder, rather than an old Mac Tech now teacher, I would love to learn the code, however I'm dependent on others in the community to create the code for such a system. Would/did you ever say to your students you'll never be able to do that? I'd be very surprised if you did... Cheers, Andy (and apologies for the offtopic rant) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On Wed, 2015-03-11 at 20:14 -0700, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 7:21 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: In certain countries (such as the one I am in) the thick black line has a single purpose - private train lines. The zebra striped lines -carto uses are for national lines only (JR lines in Japan), and the thick black lines are for private railways (such as most of the Tokyo subway system) that run across the country. [...] -1 for thread hijacking, but +1 on the thought. There ARE regional differences in rendering preferences. -1, I like the idea of OSM maps being consistent on a worldwide basis. Roads in blue, green, red, orange, yellow, and white mean the same thing no matter what country we're in. Same with railroads for the most part. At most I would support one of the alternate styles being region-specific stylesheets, but definitely not at the expense of the style we have now that's consistent across the entire planet. -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
2015-03-12 4:14 GMT+01:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: In certain countries (such as the one I am in) the thick black line has a single purpose - private train lines. The zebra striped lines -carto uses are for national lines only (JR lines in Japan), and the thick black lines are for private railways (such as most of the Tokyo subway system) that run across the country. there are tags to describe the color of railway lines typically used in maps, see here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:colour?uselang=en-US It is not completely clear what a private railway is, many former federal railways have been privatized in the last few decades, btw. also the JR has been privatized in 1987 (meaning operating as a private company for the law), but AFAIK is still 100% state owned. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 7:21 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com mailto:jo...@mac.com wrote: ... which is a real detriment to the OSM/-carto render in Japan ... So create your own rendering (either on your own, or with the rest of the Japanese community). Many different ones exist already - for example if you go to http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html you'll see a very German style. The standard map has an impossible job - trying to be a nice map, providing feedmap to mappers that an esoteric thing that they've just mapped is now present on the map and trying to work for everyone around the world regardless of country or urban / rural location. It's not going to the best representation of map data for Japan for the same reason that it can't be the best representation of map data for Englandor anywhere else - it's compromised by having to work internationally. Depending on what you want to change, small changes to an existing map style need not be a particularly difficult job. Assuming what you want is an OSM-like tile server, the basics of setting that up are described here(1). MapBox's TileMill Crash Course is here(2). I also have some notes here(3), here(4) and here(5) - but I'm sure that there are lots of other ones - try looking at presentations from previous SOTMs. Cheers, Andy (1) https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/manually-building-a-tile-server-14-04/ (2) https://www.mapbox.com/tilemill/docs/crashcourse/introduction/ (3) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:SomeoneElse (4) https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style (5) https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/openstreetmap-carto-AJT ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Regional stylesheets for osm-carto (Was: rendering of local power lines)
On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 7:21 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: In certain countries (such as the one I am in) the thick black line has a single purpose - private train lines. The zebra striped lines -carto uses are for national lines only (JR lines in Japan), and the thick black lines are for private railways (such as most of the Tokyo subway system) that run across the country. Two of the three train lines in my city should be black lines. So thick black trunk lines makes it look like there are train lines all over my province that don’t exist, which is a real detriment to the OSM/-carto render in Japan. adding neighborhood lines would be even worse. -1 for thread hijacking, but +1 on the thought. There ARE regional differences in rendering preferences. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
