Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
If you look at my entire message, I did point out that vertical clearance was an attribute of the ways, not the bridge. How should the vertical clearance from the bridge to the water be tagged, and how do you tag what height of water was the reference point? If the water level is high, there will be less room for watercraft to pass under the bridge. Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: On 06/giu/2013, at 23:55, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: the maximum clearance for vehicles passing under the bridge. The proposal mentions the first two, but not the third. in osm this is an attribute on the way(s) under the bridge, not of the bridge itself cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
Hi 2013/6/5 Martin Koppenhöfer dieterdre...@gmail.com This one, right? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Bridges_and_Tunnels +1 from me, although we don't need voting to use the tags ;-) Sure this one. I don't recognize the common proposal template. Is there other one for relations proposal ? If not, I'll edit it to match traditional workflow. an issue I see is the height property, AFAIK this is often indicated as distance from the ground/surface below to the carriageway (that's what the proposal says at the moment), but could also be used (osm) for the greatest vertical extension including towers / pylons etc. (would be more consistent with how the height tag is usually used in osm) Other interesting tags to add are architect (sometimes), start_date, ele and wikipedia. I'd also like to see some proposal regarding the structure. Let's discuss it on Talk page ? :) Cheers. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
Am 05.06.2013 22:35, schrieb François Lacombe: Martin, John, Can't we get the type=tunnel or type=bridge proposal voted and accepted ? It need a little clean up and example of different kind but it seems to be a good way to map tunnel and bridges. Finally asking for comments and vote it is the best way to be sure of it. Sure go ahead and clean up, but for me voting is not important but the prior discussion on this list is. Fly, Tunnel and bridges may be complex structures which sometimes aren't built in a single piece. Relation is needed here to link all pieces to each other in one hand and on the other to link the whole structure to its direct environment. I'm not convinced into in mapping all bridges or tunnels spatially is the best way, according to what I explained before. Do not get me wrong. I use man_made=bridge for the outline and add it to the relation. fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
There are three height types for a bridge over a navigable waterway: the maximum distance from ground level to the highest part of the bridge structure, the maximum height of vehicle plus cargo that can go across the bridge, and the maximum clearance for vehicles passing under the bridge. The proposal mentions the first two, but not the third. It does not, as far as I can tell, provide for a way to specify where the reference point is located for the height-above-ground figure, which is an issue since the ground level at one end of a bridge is often different from the ground level at the other end. The proposal states, correctly, that the maximum height of a vehicle is a property of each of the ways passing across. Roads passing under the bridge need to be tagged with max height. The tricky part is tagging the max height of ships that may wish to pass under the bridge, as this will vary with the water level. The current proposal doesn't seem to handle either aspect of the ship-clearance questions. François Lacombe francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu wrote: Hi 2013/6/5 Martin Koppenhöfer dieterdre...@gmail.com This one, right? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Bridges_and_Tunnels +1 from me, although we don't need voting to use the tags ;-) Sure this one. I don't recognize the common proposal template. Is there other one for relations proposal ? If not, I'll edit it to match traditional workflow. an issue I see is the height property, AFAIK this is often indicated as distance from the ground/surface below to the carriageway (that's what the proposal says at the moment), but could also be used (osm) for the greatest vertical extension including towers / pylons etc. (would be more consistent with how the height tag is usually used in osm) Other interesting tags to add are architect (sometimes), start_date, ele and wikipedia. I'd also like to see some proposal regarding the structure. Let's discuss it on Talk page ? :) Cheers. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
Hi, I agree with you Martin. And that's why I'm looking for a way to say those power lines/lanes/roads are on the same bridge/tunnel. As you mentionned, the tunnel/bridge name can precise which bridge is but it's not a relational (or even spatial) way of bringing objets together. Ok a tunnel isn't easy to map since we can't use GPS. But nothing prevent us to create a relation to setup such a link between roads and bridge for example. That's why I'm interested by the proposal given above. Nobody wants it accepted ? Cheers. François Lacombe francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com 2013/6/5 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: On 04/giu/2013, at 08:54, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: A motorway with two separate highways in OSM may be one bridge alltogether - but is mapped as two. actually we usually don't map bridges or tunnels, there is only the indirect mapping with an attribute on the road that says: this street is on a bridge, eventually there is also a bridge_name that tells on which bridge, but still an actual bridge (or tunnel) object isn't mapped usually. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
Am 05.06.2013 um 10:37 schrieb François Lacombe francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu: As you mentionned, the tunnel/bridge name can precise which bridge is but it's not a relational (or even spatial) way of bringing objets together. Ok a tunnel isn't easy to map since we can't use GPS. yes, but you can easily see whether it is one tube with both directions going through, or if there is one tube per direction (more usual case due to security reasons). Then you still have to define what is one tunnel, maybe also 2 (or more) distinct tubes could qualify as one tunnel? But nothing prevent us to create a relation to setup such a link between roads and bridge for example. Yes, you could either use a relation for the bridge (with name, ref, wikipedia and other tags, describing the bridge) and add the highways to the relation with a role running over the bridge, or draw distinct geometry for the bridge perimeter (and eventually geometry for the supports, pylons, etc.). The latter could also be done additionally and added to the relation). The same applies for tunnels besides that we often don't know exactly the shape of the tunnel. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
2013/6/5 Martin Koppenhöfer dieterdre...@gmail.com: yes, but you can easily see whether it is one tube with both directions going through, or if there is one tube per direction (more usual case due to security reasons). Then you still have to define what is one tunnel, maybe also 2 (or more) distinct tubes could qualify as one tunnel? Tunnels can have even more complex topologies than only 1 or 2 tubes going through, it depends on the purpose. Regarding power lines, technical facilities can follow surface streets but it's not mandatory. They can have different heights, different levels with links between them, manhole access, etc... We still call them tunnels here but there's really nothing common with road tunnels. It's out of question to map such restricted access facilties with details, but it's important to show if several features share the same infrastructure or not even if it's difficult to represent whata tunnel is in that particular situation. Yes, you could either use a relation for the bridge (with name, ref, wikipedia and other tags, describing the bridge) and add the highways to the relation with a role running over the bridge, or draw distinct geometry for the bridge perimeter (and eventually geometry for the supports, pylons, etc.). The latter could also be done additionally and added to the relation). The same applies for tunnels besides that we often don't know exactly the shape of the tunnel. The problem is such features (like power lines or ways of a highway) are always redundant with components of tunnels or bridges themselves. We don't need to create dedicated geometry for an highway tunnel since the geometry of the road gives the path followed by this tunnel. So we can precise it in the role attribute of the tunnel/bridge relation member which tube the road way represent. Since OSM doesn't manage relation member attributes at all, it will be difficult. = A relation for each tube or gallery ? François Lacombe francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
On 05/giu/2013, at 11:30, François Lacombe francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu wrote: We don't need to create dedicated geometry for an highway tunnel since the geometry of the road gives the path followed by this tunnel. for Road tunnels this is mostly true, but if you look at caves or mines it is different. I was more pointing at bridges here anyway. So we can precise it in the role attribute of the tunnel/bridge relation member which tube the road way represent. Since OSM doesn't manage relation member attributes at all, it will be difficult. of course relations can have tags - it is up to the consumer to do sth with them cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
One reason it would be useful to be able to tag bridges (and, to a lesser extent, tunnels) as single physical objects is that they may be used as landmarks. For example, you may be traveling along a street that runs parallel to a river, looking for a location just past a certain bridge. If the renderer showed three bridges, for example, due to the tagging, but there is really just one bridge, you may end up going past your intended destination before realizing that the map didn't match reality. Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/giu/2013, at 11:30, François Lacombe francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu wrote: We don't need to create dedicated geometry for an highway tunnel since the geometry of the road gives the path followed by this tunnel. for Road tunnels this is mostly true, but if you look at caves or mines it is different. I was more pointing at bridges here anyway. So we can precise it in the role attribute of the tunnel/bridge relation member which tube the road way represent. Since OSM doesn't manage relation member attributes at all, it will be difficult. of course relations can have tags - it is up to the consumer to do sth with them cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
Am 05.06.2013 00:11, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: On 04/giu/2013, at 08:54, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: A motorway with two separate highways in OSM may be one bridge alltogether - but is mapped as two. actually we usually don't map bridges or tunnels, there is only the indirect mapping with an attribute on the road that says: this street is on a bridge, eventually there is also a bridge_name that tells on which bridge, but still an actual bridge (or tunnel) object isn't mapped usually. Yes, I do and others as well: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2013-January/012795.html http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/building=bridge http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/man_made=bridge man_made=tunnel does also work. fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
Martin, John, Can't we get the type=tunnel or type=bridge proposal voted and accepted ? It need a little clean up and example of different kind but it seems to be a good way to map tunnel and bridges. Finally asking for comments and vote it is the best way to be sure of it. Fly, Tunnel and bridges may be complex structures which sometimes aren't built in a single piece. Relation is needed here to link all pieces to each other in one hand and on the other to link the whole structure to its direct environment. I'm not convinced into in mapping all bridges or tunnels spatially is the best way, according to what I explained before. Cheers. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com 2013/6/5 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com Am 05.06.2013 00:11, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: On 04/giu/2013, at 08:54, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: A motorway with two separate highways in OSM may be one bridge alltogether - but is mapped as two. actually we usually don't map bridges or tunnels, there is only the indirect mapping with an attribute on the road that says: this street is on a bridge, eventually there is also a bridge_name that tells on which bridge, but still an actual bridge (or tunnel) object isn't mapped usually. Yes, I do and others as well: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2013-January/012795.html http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/building=bridge http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/man_made=bridge man_made=tunnel does also work. fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
Thanks fly for this answer. Type=tunnel can suits my needs : let's add all power lines in the relation with role=through. Add tubes or not depends on the tunnel design, not on what's inside. I don't mind. The trick is to link many power lines to a single tunnel. However, it would be hard to build something in transmission refinement with it since type=tunnel proposal isn't voted yet. Don't we have something more reliable ? Cheers. François Lacombe francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com 2013/6/4 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: On 04.06.2013 00:26, François Lacombe wrote: Hi, I'm currently improving draft of power transmission refinement proposal and a question about underground features can't currently find answer. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement I wonder how we can map power lines underground and infrastructure which can host them simultaneously. The best example is when several power lines are built in a tunnel like on this photo : http://www.rte-france.com/webapp/100ansparis/img/chapitre3/img14.jpg I can create several ways, very close from each other, for all power lines we can see and tag them with tunnel=yes but how will I map the tunnel ? If we only use tunnel=yes on each power line, it's impossible to know if they are in the same tunnel or if there is one dedicated tunnel for each. I think only a relation would solve the problem and it's not a power line dedicated question. Do someone have ever encounter that situation ? Mmh, type=tunnel is already in use [1] but it is used for the whole tunnel, e.g. to combine several tubes and the infrastucture like escape ways and air-system. We could use a tag like tubes= or number_of_tubes= for the relation and draw the outline. fly -- [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Bridges_and_Tunnels ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
Hi That's already a problem for ways, too: A motorway with two separate highways in OSM may be one bridge alltogether - but is mapped as two. A street where the footways along are separated by a small wall or a hedge is drawn as distinct osm ways (at least it should be) but if these ways share the same bridge construction, there the problem is exactly the same. There's this proposal already, although I'm not sure if it's the best solution: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Bridges_and_Tunnels regards Peter Am 04.06.2013 00:26, schrieb François Lacombe: Hi, I'm currently improving draft of power transmission refinement proposal and a question about underground features can't currently find answer. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement I wonder how we can map power lines underground and infrastructure which can host them simultaneously. The best example is when several power lines are built in a tunnel like on this photo : http://www.rte-france.com/webapp/100ansparis/img/chapitre3/img14.jpg I can create several ways, very close from each other, for all power lines we can see and tag them with tunnel=yes but how will I map the tunnel ? If we only use tunnel=yes on each power line, it's impossible to know if they are in the same tunnel or if there is one dedicated tunnel for each. I think only a relation would solve the problem and it's not a power line dedicated question. Do someone have ever encounter that situation ? Many thanks in advance, cheers. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
Am 04.06.2013 11:15, schrieb François Lacombe: 2013/6/4 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: On 04.06.2013 00:26, François Lacombe wrote: Hi, I'm currently improving draft of power transmission refinement proposal and a question about underground features can't currently find answer. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement I wonder how we can map power lines underground and infrastructure which can host them simultaneously. The best example is when several power lines are built in a tunnel like on this photo : http://www.rte-france.com/webapp/100ansparis/img/chapitre3/img14.jpg I can create several ways, very close from each other, for all power lines we can see and tag them with tunnel=yes but how will I map the tunnel ? If we only use tunnel=yes on each power line, it's impossible to know if they are in the same tunnel or if there is one dedicated tunnel for each. I think only a relation would solve the problem and it's not a power line dedicated question. Do someone have ever encounter that situation ? Mmh, type=tunnel is already in use [1] but it is used for the whole tunnel, e.g. to combine several tubes and the infrastucture like escape ways and air-system. We could use a tag like tubes= or number_of_tubes= for the relation and draw the outline. Type=tunnel can suits my needs : let's add all power lines in the relation with role=through. Add tubes or not depends on the tunnel design, not on what's inside. I don't mind. The trick is to link many power lines to a single tunnel. Exactly, we need it for rails a lot as often several track run in one tunnel but it is not often used. With motorways you often find tunnels with two tubes but one name and connections plus sharing escape ways. However, it would be hard to build something in transmission refinement with it since type=tunnel proposal isn't voted yet. Don't we have something more reliable ? Sadly it is not used that often but it works quite well ! But tunnels are not well mapped across the globe (no gpx, no aerials). Cheers -- [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Bridges_and_Tunnels ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
On 04/giu/2013, at 08:54, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: A motorway with two separate highways in OSM may be one bridge alltogether - but is mapped as two. actually we usually don't map bridges or tunnels, there is only the indirect mapping with an attribute on the road that says: this street is on a bridge, eventually there is also a bridge_name that tells on which bridge, but still an actual bridge (or tunnel) object isn't mapped usually. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
Hi, I'm currently improving draft of power transmission refinement proposal and a question about underground features can't currently find answer. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement I wonder how we can map power lines underground and infrastructure which can host them simultaneously. The best example is when several power lines are built in a tunnel like on this photo : http://www.rte-france.com/webapp/100ansparis/img/chapitre3/img14.jpg I can create several ways, very close from each other, for all power lines we can see and tag them with tunnel=yes but how will I map the tunnel ? If we only use tunnel=yes on each power line, it's impossible to know if they are in the same tunnel or if there is one dedicated tunnel for each. I think only a relation would solve the problem and it's not a power line dedicated question. Do someone have ever encounter that situation ? Many thanks in advance, cheers. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Underground power lines in tunnel
On 04.06.2013 00:26, François Lacombe wrote: Hi, I'm currently improving draft of power transmission refinement proposal and a question about underground features can't currently find answer. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement I wonder how we can map power lines underground and infrastructure which can host them simultaneously. The best example is when several power lines are built in a tunnel like on this photo : http://www.rte-france.com/webapp/100ansparis/img/chapitre3/img14.jpg I can create several ways, very close from each other, for all power lines we can see and tag them with tunnel=yes but how will I map the tunnel ? If we only use tunnel=yes on each power line, it's impossible to know if they are in the same tunnel or if there is one dedicated tunnel for each. I think only a relation would solve the problem and it's not a power line dedicated question. Do someone have ever encounter that situation ? Mmh, type=tunnel is already in use [1] but it is used for the whole tunnel, e.g. to combine several tubes and the infrastucture like escape ways and air-system. We could use a tag like tubes= or number_of_tubes= for the relation and draw the outline. fly -- [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Bridges_and_Tunnels ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
