Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Marc M.]

Le 03.05.20 à 20:54, Jean-Marc Liotier a écrit :
> is it also used in other parts of the world ?

the thread already all missuses all around the world.
2 in France :
legal status https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/435015884
small area of grass between highway
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/232310269

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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 4 May 2020 at 04:55, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

> Then, isn't it nice that leisure=common has been abandoned in it's former
> British usage ? As far as I know, that was its only other usage - or is it
> also used in other parts of the world ?
>

I don't know how they break up between leisure= v landuse=, but town
commons are to be found in, or on the outskirts of, many (most?) small
country towns in Australia.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Enock Seth Nyamador]

This has been a long thread so far. landuse=common, I have used it pretty
much in Ghana and West Africa as well when an open space just didn't serve
one purpose, neither a pitch nor park but can be used for both. This
deprecation needs a second look.

Best,

Am So., 3. Mai 2020 um 18:55 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier :

> On 5/3/20 7:36 PM, Marc M. wrote:
>
> Le 03.05.20 à 18:13, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
>
> it is true that this tag (leisure=common)is ambiguous because it is being
> used for totally different purposes in different countries.
>
> I think this argument is crucial. if more than one meaning exists for a
> tag, having a precise meaning for a country is useless, osm is a global
> base, it's a bad idea to hope a render style "tag A rendered as meaning1 in
> Africa, as meaning2 in Europe, as meaning3 in Asia".
>
> Then, isn't it nice that leisure=common has been abandoned in it's former
> British usage ? As far as I know, that was its only other usage - or is it
> also used in other parts of the world ?
>
>
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-- 
-Enock
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 5/3/20 7:36 PM, Marc M. wrote:

Le 03.05.20 à 18:13, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
it is true that this tag (leisure=common)is ambiguous because it is 
being used for totally different purposes in different countries. 
I think this argument is crucial. if more than one meaning exists for 
a tag, having a precise meaning for a country is useless, osm is a 
global base, it's a bad idea to hope a render style "tag A rendered as 
meaning1 in Africa, as meaning2 in Europe, as meaning3 in Asia".


Then, isn't it nice that leisure=common has been abandoned in it's 
former British usage ? As far as I know, that was its only other usage - 
or is it also used in other parts of the world ?



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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Marc M.]

Hello,

Le 03.05.20 à 18:13, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
> it is true that this tag (leisure=common)is ambiguous because it is
> being used for totally different purposes in different countries.

I think this argument is crucial.
if more than one meaning exists for a tag, having a precise meaning for
a country is useless, osm is a global base, it's a bad idea to hope a
render style "tag A rendered as meaning1 in Africa, as meaning2 in
Europe, as meaning3 in Asia".
for quality, it is important to abandon multi-meaning tags and use
new tags instead, one for each existing sense.

as the subject said "leisure=common <...> need a replacement"
several replacements.

Regards,
Marc

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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Joseph Eisenberg]

We stopped rendering it, but we didn’t edit the wiki page to set the status
to “deprecated”. Many tags are not rendered because they are ambiguous
(e.g. natural=fell) but that doesn’t mean they are deprecated.

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 9:34 AM Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 03/05/2020 17:13, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> > The deprecation was not discussed, and it was not done by anyone at
> > OpenStreetMap Carto, BTW.
> >
> Er - wasn't that
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3619 ? You
> commented in the discussion there...
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Andy Townsend]

On 03/05/2020 17:13, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
The deprecation was not discussed, and it was not done by anyone at 
OpenStreetMap Carto, BTW.


Er - wasn't that 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3619 ? You 
commented in the discussion there...


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Joseph Eisenberg]

The deprecation was not discussed, and it was not done by anyone at
OpenStreetMap Carto, BTW.

However, it is true that this tag (leisure=common)is ambiguous because it
is being used for totally different purposes in different countries.

So while you might be using it in a consistent way in your region, database
users who are looking at the whole globe will have trouble interpreting
what it means.

That's why it would be better to propose a new, different tag to map open
areas of unvegetated land in villages and towns.

-- Joseph Eisenberg
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Rafael Avila Coya]

I also agree that leisure=common (leisure, not landuse) should continue 
to be used as it has been up to now for African (and not only African) 
countries, because () their context differs so much from European 
countries, for example. I find it the most suitable, and it's been the 
one we've been using for years without any conflict with other tags.


I had opened this talk back in March [1], and got the answer [2] that 
this deprecation is bogus, and based on a decision made by 
openstreetmap-carto maintainers to drop the tag from rendering...


Cheers,

Rafael.

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2020-March/015194.html

[2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2020-March/015196.html

O 30/04/20 ás 16:29, Jean-Marc Liotier escribiu:

On 4/30/20 2:12 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 14:07 Uhr schrieb Andy Townsend 
mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>>:



How about "leisure=common"?


+1, I would prefer leisure=common over landuse, as these seem to be 
"features"

(countable, etc.)


leisure=common is an especially good candidate because land which is 
legally designated as common land in the UK should nowadays be tagged 
as designation=common - and there is therefore no longer a namespace 
collision... leisure=common is available for recycling into our 
African purpose !






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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 5/1/20 2:25 PM, John Willis via Tagging wrote:
lots of urban areas have commons around buildings that are not mere 
landscaping - are those parks? landuse=grass? highway=ped?


Indeed, in France I have seen such mapped as highway=pedestrian - but 
that emphasizes their role as thoroughfare rather than their role as 
destination.


Conceptually, I believe plaza is what we are debating about. Now, how to 
tag that ?


place=plaza would be in the place=* hierarchy, which is meant for named 
locations.


The focus on function places those plaza squarely in the leisure=* field.

So far, I think that appropriating leisure=common for this purpose is a 
solid idea.



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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[John Willis via Tagging]

> On May 1, 2020, at 8:00 PM, Florimond Berthoux  
> wrote:
> 
> +1 for highway=pedestrian + area=yes
> That how we map a town square in France (and every where else I guess ?)’


+1 for plaza mapping and any other predominantly foot-dominated expanse in any 
usage like a plaza or wherever people are usually walking around. 

The commons to me seem more like a “park” - I wouldn’t tag it like a park, but 
a commons area where people sit on the grass and eat lunch certianly isn’t like 
a plaza. there may be a path through these areas like this as well. 

lots of urban areas have commons around buildings that are not mere landscaping 
- are those parks? landuse=grass? highway=ped? 

 hmm…

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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Warin]

On 1/5/20 9:00 pm, Florimond Berthoux wrote:

+1 for highway=pedestrian + area=yes
That how we map a town square in France (and every where else I guess ?)



To me highway=pedestrian is more for where for where foot traffic passes 
rather than a place where people stop and meet.





Le mer. 29 avr. 2020 à 23:18, Joseph Eisenberg 
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> a écrit :


I agree, the area in this spot
(https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA) is a
moderly sized open area of bare earth, with buildings on 3 sides
and a paved streets on a long side. It appears to be used for
sports and recreation, and for walking. I suspect it might be a
"de facto" leisure=pitch - in the USA it would be an "empty lot"
used for soccer/baseball/etc. It could also be a
highway=pedestrian + area=yes - an open pedestrian area or "town
square" - those are usually paved in some way in developed
countries, but that's not a requirement. It does not appear to be
a park.

There was not any formal discussion to deprecate leisure=common,
and mappers are certainly free to keep using that tag. It was
marked as deprecated by one wiki user, about a year ago.

But since the tag it is not well defined, it will be hard for
database users to interpret what it means.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 1:41 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:




Apr 29, 2020, 21:37 by skqu...@rushpost.com
:

On 4/29/20 14:34, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar:
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA
- larger than a
street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a
multipurpose common
area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or
lounging around
also occur, and the occasional popular event) and
usually surfaced with
sand or whatever the ground is.

We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in
Senegal and 486 in
Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) -
which is a bit of
stretch from the British legal definition, but worked
well enough and
did not conflict with its British usage. But
leisure=common is now
deprecated

So, what should we use instead ?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon
suggests using
leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch
functionally but evokes
greenery that does not occur here (though British
commons are just as
green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any
other ideas ? Or I'm
going to use leisure=park+surface=sand !


While leisure=park might work, there is also
leisure=recreation_ground
to consider.


leisure=recreation_ground sounds fitting to me and is without
baggage of legal
status bundled into leisure=commons

This specific place looks like leisure=pitch. And for example
in Poland some
sport pitch may be used for an occasional event, festival of
various types.

Note: I am unfamiliar with on-the-ground situation in Africa
___



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Florimond Berthoux



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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Florimond Berthoux]

+1 for highway=pedestrian + area=yes
That how we map a town square in France (and every where else I guess ?)


Le mer. 29 avr. 2020 à 23:18, Joseph Eisenberg 
a écrit :

> I agree, the area in this spot (
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA) is a moderly
> sized open area of bare earth, with buildings on 3 sides and a paved
> streets on a long side. It appears to be used for sports and recreation,
> and for walking. I suspect it might be a "de facto" leisure=pitch - in the
> USA it would be an "empty lot" used for soccer/baseball/etc. It could also
> be a highway=pedestrian + area=yes - an open pedestrian area or "town
> square" - those are usually paved in some way in developed countries, but
> that's not a requirement. It does not appear to be a park.
>
> There was not any formal discussion to deprecate leisure=common, and
> mappers are certainly free to keep using that tag. It was marked as
> deprecated by one wiki user, about a year ago.
>
> But since the tag it is not well defined, it will be hard for database
> users to interpret what it means.
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 1:41 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Apr 29, 2020, 21:37 by skqu...@rushpost.com:
>>
>> On 4/29/20 14:34, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
>>
>> Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar:
>> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA - larger than a
>> street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common
>> area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around
>> also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with
>> sand or whatever the ground is.
>>
>> We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in
>> Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of
>> stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and
>> did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now
>> deprecated
>>
>> So, what should we use instead ?
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon suggests using
>> leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes
>> greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as
>> green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm
>> going to use leisure=park+surface=sand !
>>
>>
>> While leisure=park might work, there is also leisure=recreation_ground
>> to consider.
>>
>>
>> leisure=recreation_ground sounds fitting to me and is without baggage of
>> legal
>> status bundled into leisure=commons
>>
>> This specific place looks like leisure=pitch. And for example in Poland
>> some
>> sport pitch may be used for an occasional event, festival of various
>> types.
>>
>> Note: I am unfamiliar with on-the-ground situation in Africa
>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Mark Wagner]

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 12:08:22 +0200
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 11:59 Uhr schrieb Warin
> <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> 
> > On 30/4/20 7:29 pm, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 11:18 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier <  
> > j...@liotier.org>:  
> >  
> >> The concept they are closest to is "plaza"
> >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza) - which, by the way, does
> >> not seem to have currency in Openstreetmap.  
> >
> >
> >
> > place=square
> >
> > Needs to have a name, many of these have no names.
> >  
> 
> 
> if these are significant open areas that are used for recreation and
> to meet each other, it seems improbable that they do not have names.
> Can you back your claim with real world examples?

In most of the world, things only get names when there's some ambiguity
about which one is being referred to.  Real-world example from North
America: when I was growing up, if someone came by and told me there
was a hockey game forming, there was no need to specify where.
Everyone knew that the neighborhood kids used a certain stretch of side
road as their hockey field.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 4/30/20 2:12 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 14:07 Uhr schrieb Andy Townsend 
mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>>:



How about "leisure=common"?


+1, I would prefer leisure=common over landuse, as these seem to be 
"features"

(countable, etc.)


leisure=common is an especially good candidate because land which is 
legally designated as common land in the UK should nowadays be tagged as 
designation=common - and there is therefore no longer a namespace 
collision... leisure=common is available for recycling into our African 
purpose !





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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 4/30/20 12:08 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
if these are significant open areas that are used for recreation and 
to meet each other, it seems improbable that they do not have names. 
Can you back your claim with real world examples?


Go wander around Dakar and Bamako !


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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 14:07 Uhr schrieb Andy Townsend :

> On 30/04/2020 12:10, Peter Elderson wrote:
> > landuse=common makes most sense to me.
> > name, surface, access etc could be added when applicable.
> >
> That's currently one of the keys used at
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=common#values but far from
> the most popular.
>
> How about "leisure=common"?



+1, I would prefer leisure=common over landuse, as these seem to be
"features"
(countable, etc.)

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Andy Townsend]

On 30/04/2020 12:10, Peter Elderson wrote:
Seems to me that a "common" is an adequate word for such a place, so 
=common would be right.



That makes sense to me as well.


What key to use? I think it's a use of the land. Actual use can vary, 
may be leisure, may be commerce, may be parking, maybe events.

Size may vary. Surface may vary.

landuse=common makes most sense to me.
name, surface, access etc could be added when applicable.

That's currently one of the keys used at 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=common#values but far from 
the most popular.


How about "leisure=common"?

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Warin]

On 30/4/20 8:08 pm, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 11:59 Uhr schrieb Warin 
<61sundow...@gmail.com >:


On 30/4/20 7:29 pm, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 11:18 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier
mailto:j...@liotier.org>>:

The concept they are closest to is "plaza"
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza) - which, by the way,
does not seem
to have currency in Openstreetmap.



place=square


Needs to have a name, many of these have no names.



if these are significant open areas that are used for recreation and 
to meet each other, it seems improbable that they do not have names. 
Can you back your claim with real world examples?



Not my claim .. but


On 30/4/20 10:06 am, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

On 4/30/20 12:20 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote:

place=square seems to fit the bill


place=square exists within the place=* hierarchy which , as documented 
in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place, is used to 
characterize named locations. What we tag here is almost always unnamed.


Our goal is to record the nature of that space - and most importantly 
its functionality as a common free space.




Note the statement "What we tag here is almost always unnamed." Fairly 
clear to me.



I also would not say 'used for recreation' as that may not be true in 
all situations.


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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 11:59 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 30/4/20 7:29 pm, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
>
> Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 11:18 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier <
> j...@liotier.org>:
>
>> The concept they are closest to is "plaza"
>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza) - which, by the way, does not seem
>> to have currency in Openstreetmap.
>
>
>
> place=square
>
> Needs to have a name, many of these have no names.
>


if these are significant open areas that are used for recreation and to
meet each other, it seems improbable that they do not have names. Can you
back your claim with real world examples?

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Warin]

On 30/4/20 7:29 pm, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 11:18 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier 
mailto:j...@liotier.org>>:


The concept they are closest to is "plaza"
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza) - which, by the way, does
not seem
to have currency in Openstreetmap.



place=square


Needs to have a name, many of these have no names.


landuse=plaza, open urban space that can be used for public meetings or 
gatherings???




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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 30. Apr. 2020 um 11:18 Uhr schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier :

> The concept they are closest to is "plaza"
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza) - which, by the way, does not seem
> to have currency in Openstreetmap.



place=square
Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 4/30/20 3:13 AM, Warin wrote:
It may look like sports are played there to you and me. It may 
resemble a park to others. However none of those may be the case! Or 
it may not be the primary use. Simply viewing it without local 
knowledge may well cause errors!


The local mapper should say what the area is primarily used for .. It 
may be used for a weekly market (some 'weeks' are 6 days in Africa).  
It may be used for social/political gatherings.


I know these places well. They are never a marketplace (in Senegal and 
Mali, those are dedicated areas - clearly marked). They are not 
dedicated sport pitches - but soccer kids play soccer. They are 
sometimes used for gatherings. Or parking.


The concept they are closest to is "plaza" 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza) - which, by the way, does not seem 
to have currency in Openstreetmap.



The surface is not grass. I would hesitate to call it sand, could be 
ground. In any case 'unpaved' could be used.



surface=ground ?

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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Warin]

On 30/4/20 6:40 am, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:




Apr 29, 2020, 21:37 by skqu...@rushpost.com:

On 4/29/20 14:34, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar:
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA -
larger than a
street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a
multipurpose common
area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging
around
also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually
surfaced with
sand or whatever the ground is.

We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and
486 in
Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a
bit of
stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well
enough and
did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now
deprecated

So, what should we use instead ?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon
suggests using
leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally
but evokes
greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are
just as
green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other
ideas ? Or I'm
going to use leisure=park+surface=sand !


While leisure=park might work, there is also leisure=recreation_ground
to consider.


leisure=recreation_ground sounds fitting to me and is without baggage 
of legal

status bundled into leisure=commons



It may look like sports are played there to you and me.

It may resemble a park to others.

However none of those may be the case!

Or it may not be the primary use. Simply viewing it without local 
knowledge may well cause errors!



The local mapper should say what the area is primarily used for ..

It may be used for a weekly market (some 'weeks' are 6 days in Africa).

It may be used for social/political gatherings.


--

The surface is not grass. I would hesitate to call it sand, could be 
ground. In any case 'unpaved' could be used.


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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On 4/30/20 12:20 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote:

place=square seems to fit the bill


place=square exists within the place=* hierarchy which , as documented 
in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place, is used to 
characterize named locations. What we tag here is almost always unnamed.


Our goal is to record the nature of that space - and most importantly 
its functionality as a common free space.



On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 at 23:18, Joseph Eisenberg 
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote:


   I agree, the area in this spot
   (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA) is a
   moderly sized open area of bare earth, with buildings on 3 sides and
   a paved streets on a long side. It appears to be used for sports and
   recreation, and for walking. I suspect it might be a "de facto"
   leisure=pitch - in the USA it would be an "empty lot" used for
   soccer/baseball/etc. It could also be a highway=pedestrian +
   area=yes - an open pedestrian area or "town square" - those are
   usually paved in some way in developed countries, but that's not a
   requirement. It does not appear to be a park.

   There was not any formal discussion to deprecate leisure=common, and
   mappers are certainly free to keep using that tag. It was marked as
   deprecated by one wiki user, about a year ago.

   But since the tag it is not well defined, it will be hard for
   database users to interpret what it means.


   On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 1:41 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
   mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:


   Apr 29, 2020, 21:37 by skqu...@rushpost.com
   :

   On 4/29/20 14:34, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

   Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar:
   https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA
   - larger than a
   street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a
   multipurpose common
   area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or
   lounging around
   also occur, and the occasional popular event) and
   usually surfaced with
   sand or whatever the ground is.

   We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in
   Senegal and 486 in
   Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) -
   which is a bit of
   stretch from the British legal definition, but worked
   well enough and
   did not conflict with its British usage. But
   leisure=common is now
   deprecated

   So, what should we use instead ?
   https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon
   suggests using
   leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch
   functionally but evokes
   greenery that does not occur here (though British
   commons are just as
   green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any
   other ideas ? Or I'm
   going to use leisure=park+surface=sand !


   While leisure=park might work, there is also
   leisure=recreation_ground
   to consider.


   leisure=recreation_ground sounds fitting to me and is without
   baggage of legal
   status bundled into leisure=commons

   This specific place looks like leisure=pitch. And for example in
   Poland some
   sport pitch may be used for an occasional event, festival of
   various types.

   Note: I am unfamiliar with on-the-ground situation in Africa

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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Volker Schmidt]

place=square seems to fit the bill

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 at 23:18, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> I agree, the area in this spot (
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA) is a moderly
> sized open area of bare earth, with buildings on 3 sides and a paved
> streets on a long side. It appears to be used for sports and recreation,
> and for walking. I suspect it might be a "de facto" leisure=pitch - in the
> USA it would be an "empty lot" used for soccer/baseball/etc. It could also
> be a highway=pedestrian + area=yes - an open pedestrian area or "town
> square" - those are usually paved in some way in developed countries, but
> that's not a requirement. It does not appear to be a park.
>
> There was not any formal discussion to deprecate leisure=common, and
> mappers are certainly free to keep using that tag. It was marked as
> deprecated by one wiki user, about a year ago.
>
> But since the tag it is not well defined, it will be hard for database
> users to interpret what it means.
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 1:41 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Apr 29, 2020, 21:37 by skqu...@rushpost.com:
>>
>> On 4/29/20 14:34, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
>>
>> Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar:
>> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA - larger than a
>> street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common
>> area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around
>> also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with
>> sand or whatever the ground is.
>>
>> We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in
>> Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of
>> stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and
>> did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now
>> deprecated
>>
>> So, what should we use instead ?
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon suggests using
>> leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes
>> greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as
>> green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm
>> going to use leisure=park+surface=sand !
>>
>>
>> While leisure=park might work, there is also leisure=recreation_ground
>> to consider.
>>
>>
>> leisure=recreation_ground sounds fitting to me and is without baggage of
>> legal
>> status bundled into leisure=commons
>>
>> This specific place looks like leisure=pitch. And for example in Poland
>> some
>> sport pitch may be used for an occasional event, festival of various
>> types.
>>
>> Note: I am unfamiliar with on-the-ground situation in Africa
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I agree, the area in this spot (
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA) is a moderly sized
open area of bare earth, with buildings on 3 sides and a paved streets on a
long side. It appears to be used for sports and recreation, and for
walking. I suspect it might be a "de facto" leisure=pitch - in the USA it
would be an "empty lot" used for soccer/baseball/etc. It could also be a
highway=pedestrian + area=yes - an open pedestrian area or "town square" -
those are usually paved in some way in developed countries, but that's not
a requirement. It does not appear to be a park.

There was not any formal discussion to deprecate leisure=common, and
mappers are certainly free to keep using that tag. It was marked as
deprecated by one wiki user, about a year ago.

But since the tag it is not well defined, it will be hard for database
users to interpret what it means.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 1:41 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Apr 29, 2020, 21:37 by skqu...@rushpost.com:
>
> On 4/29/20 14:34, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
>
> Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar:
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA - larger than a
> street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common
> area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around
> also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with
> sand or whatever the ground is.
>
> We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in
> Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of
> stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and
> did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now
> deprecated
>
> So, what should we use instead ?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon suggests using
> leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes
> greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as
> green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm
> going to use leisure=park+surface=sand !
>
>
> While leisure=park might work, there is also leisure=recreation_ground
> to consider.
>
>
> leisure=recreation_ground sounds fitting to me and is without baggage of
> legal
> status bundled into leisure=commons
>
> This specific place looks like leisure=pitch. And for example in Poland
> some
> sport pitch may be used for an occasional event, festival of various types.
>
> Note: I am unfamiliar with on-the-ground situation in Africa
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Apr 29, 2020, 21:37 by skqu...@rushpost.com:

> On 4/29/20 14:34, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
>
>> Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar:
>> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA - larger than a
>> street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common
>> area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around
>> also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with
>> sand or whatever the ground is.
>>
>> We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in
>> Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of
>> stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and
>> did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now
>> deprecated
>>
>> So, what should we use instead ?
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon suggests using
>> leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes
>> greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as
>> green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm
>> going to use leisure=park+surface=sand !
>>
>
> While leisure=park might work, there is also leisure=recreation_ground
> to consider.
>

leisure=recreation_ground sounds fitting to me and is without baggage of legal
status bundled into leisure=commons

This specific place looks like leisure=pitch. And for example in Poland some 
sport pitch may be used for an occasional  event, festival of various types.

Note: I am unfamiliar with on-the-ground situation in Africa
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Apr 29, 2020, 21:37 by skqu...@rushpost.com:

> Why exactly was leisure=common deprecated? I used it quite a bit on
> OpenGeoFiction (which follows OSM's lead for the data model).
>
I updated https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon 
with arguments from 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3619

Primary reasons are that 
- legal status is better described with designation=common
- physical object is better described with more specific tag leisure=park,
landuse=grass, and/or landuse=farmland or other tags
- it was widely and primarily used as tagging for a renderer 
  (for example strips of grass between carriageways)
- meaning unclear for most of mappers
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Re: [Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 4/29/20 14:34, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
> Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar:
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA - larger than a
> street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common
> area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around
> also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with
> sand or whatever the ground is.
> 
> We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in
> Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of
> stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and
> did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now
> deprecated
> 
> So, what should we use instead ?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon suggests using
> leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes
> greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as
> green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm
> going to use leisure=park+surface=sand !

While leisure=park might work, there is also leisure=recreation_ground
to consider.

Why exactly was leisure=common deprecated? I used it quite a bit on
OpenGeoFiction (which follows OSM's lead for the data model).

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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[Tagging] With leisure=common deprecated, Senegal & Mali need a replacement

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

Here is a 360° picture of a square in Dakar: 
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jYNQFMwHiNEZRCnpi71heA - larger than a 
street (it occupies a whole city block), used as a multipurpose common 
area (pickup soccer games are a staple but parking or lounging around 
also occur, and the occasional popular event) and usually surfaced with 
sand or whatever the ground is.


We have long tagged it leisure=common (389 ways in Senegal and 486 in 
Mali according to http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/TqN) - which is a bit of 
stretch from the British legal definition, but worked well enough and 
did not conflict with its British usage. But leisure=common is now 
deprecated


So, what should we use instead ? 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dcommon suggests using 
leisure=park - which isn't too much of a stretch functionally but evokes 
greenery that does not occur here (though British commons are just as 
green and we were happy with leisure=common)... Any other ideas ? Or I'm 
going to use leisure=park+surface=sand !



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