Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Kevin Kenny 
>> Does light reach the bottom of the deepest point of the water body?
>> Does the water body only get small waves (i.e., smaller than 1ft/30cm in 
>> height)?
>> Is the water body relatively uniform in temperature?
>>
>> If these questions can be answered with a “yes,” the water body is likely a 
>> pond and not a lake.1
>>
>> Other national technical typologies do include a lower area requirement 
>> ranging from .5 hectares ( 'two NFL football fields' for USA residents ) to 
>> 2 hectares, and other various factors like inflow/outflow, relation to the 
>> water table, sediment suspension, etc.

I tag it all 'natural=water' and let other people worry about the
difference between a man-made pond and a reservoir and a flooded
basin. (I do use 'landuse=basin' for the ones that are only
ephemerally flooded.)

Otherwise, I'd go crazy with trying to label things in the complex
glaciokarst topography around here. Examples:

A 'lake' that is actually a permanently flooded ponor, with its outlet
an intermittent stream that flows in the wet season, and is rejoined
below the escarpment with several streams flowing out of cave
entrances, one of which is suspected to be the main drainage of the
lake.

A tarn or two.

A flooded kettlehole or two.

Large sporadic water bodies - some running to hundreds of hectares and
big enough to land float planes - that will be wet meadows in years
that the beavers aren't in residence. These are definitely impounded
reservoirs - but the impoundment isn't anthropogenic!

Reservoirs formed by anthropogenic raising of the water level of existing lakes.

And that's before we even get into trying to distinguish the things by
pH. (Acid bogs vs neutral-to-alkaline fens, etc.)

At least few people here are trying to distinguish based on area
alone. That's very good. If I want "waterbodies in excess of 10,000
m²" or whatever, I can compute areas from the geometries, thank you
very much. No reason to have separate tagging for just that!

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Warin 

On 21/07/18 09:23, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
On 21 July 2018 at 04:59, Michael Patrick>wrote:



  * Does light reach the bottom of the deepest point of the water
body?
  * Does the water body only get small waves (i.e., smaller than
1ft/30cm in height)?
  * Is the water body relatively uniform in temperature?

If these questions can be answered with a “yes,” the water body is
likely a pond and not a lake.^1

Other national technical typologies do include a lower area
requirement ranging from .5 hectares ( 'two NFL football fields'
for USA residents ) to 2 hectares, and other various factors like
inflow/outflow, relation to the water table, sediment suspension, etc.



On 21 July 2018 at 05:20, Dave Swarthout > wrote:


My criteria for deciding between lake and pond are therefore
mostly based on size. Sometimes a lake-sized water body is
obviously very shallow and so I tag it as a pond.

Being an awkward Aussie again :-)

Lake Eyre, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Eyre, when full, has a 
surface area of "9,500 km^2  (3,668 sq mi)" but has only filled a 
handful of times in the last ~150 years. Even when full, the maximum 
water depth in the deepest spot is only 6 m's, with most being <3 m's, 
& the water is virtually transparent, so that the lake bottom can 
still be seen from the air.


So this makes it only a pond? (& a intermittent one at that! :-))


Ephemeral. :)

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
 On 21 July 2018 at 04:59, Michael Patrick  wrote:

>
>
>- Does light reach the bottom of the deepest point of the water body?
>- Does the water body only get small waves (i.e., smaller than
>1ft/30cm in height)?
>- Is the water body relatively uniform in temperature?
>
> If these questions can be answered with a “yes,” the water body is likely
> a pond and not a lake.1
> Other national technical typologies do include a lower area requirement
> ranging from .5 hectares ( 'two NFL football fields' for USA residents ) to
> 2 hectares, and other various factors like inflow/outflow, relation to the
> water table, sediment suspension, etc.
>


On 21 July 2018 at 05:20, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

> My criteria for deciding between lake and pond are therefore mostly based
> on size. Sometimes a lake-sized water body is obviously very shallow and so
> I tag it as a pond.
>

Being an awkward Aussie again :-)

Lake Eyre, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Eyre, when full, has a
surface area of "9,500 km2 (3,668 sq mi)" but has only filled a handful of
times in the last ~150 years. Even when full, the maximum water depth in
the deepest spot is only 6 m's, with most being <3 m's, & the water is
virtually transparent, so that the lake bottom can still be seen from the
air.

So this makes it only a pond? (& a intermittent one at that! :-))
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Dave Swarthout 
Michael wrote:
>Both lakes and ponds are standing or slow-moving bodies of water. There
are no official or scientific differences >between lakes and ponds. Lakes
are larger than ponds, but size is relative. What would be considered a
pond in one >region might be considered a lake in another.

I totally agree with this characterization. I do most of my mapping of
rural Alaska using satellite imagery, for many reasons, not the least being
that I cannot ever visit these wild and dauntingly remote places to check
out water flows, depths, etc. My criteria for deciding between lake and
pond are therefore mostly based on size. Sometimes a lake-sized water body
is obviously very shallow and so I tag it as a pond. Sometimes I pause and
question my choice because it is almost impossible to know for sure what's
appropriate.

I also do a lot of mapping in Thailand where there are thousands of little
man-made ponds, perhaps more properly reservoirs, used to supply water for
thirsty rice paddies. These I always tag as ponds.

My 2 cents

Dave



On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:05 AM Paul Allen  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Michael Patrick 
> wrote:
>
>
>> The proper name of the water feature usually has nothing to do with
>> these, though. Our area has numerous 'Lake Something's which are
>> impoundments that barely would would classify as ponds, basically created
>> by real estate developers as bulldozer scrapes into the local water table.
>>
>
> A hydromorphologicaly-aware  mapper will tag one of those as:
>
>   name=Lake Exaggeration
>   natural=water
>   water=pond
>   note=Damned real-estate developers did it again.  My bathtub is bigger
> than this.
>
> --
> Paul
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Paul Allen 
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Michael Patrick 
wrote:


> The proper name of the water feature usually has nothing to do with these,
> though. Our area has numerous 'Lake Something's which are impoundments that
> barely would would classify as ponds, basically created by real estate
> developers as bulldozer scrapes into the local water table.
>

A hydromorphologicaly-aware  mapper will tag one of those as:

  name=Lake Exaggeration
  natural=water
  water=pond
  note=Damned real-estate developers did it again.  My bathtub is bigger
than this.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Michael Patrick 
Form a hyrdomorphology / geomorphology technical perspective, the following
key fairly succinctly characterizes the differences.( from
http://www.lakescientist.com/lake-facts/how-lakes-differ/ ):
*Lakes vs. Ponds*

Both lakes and ponds are standing or slow-moving bodies of water. There are
no official or scientific differences between lakes and ponds. Lakes are
larger than ponds, but size is relative. What would be considered a pond in
one region might be considered a lake in another. In general, water bodies
that are considered lakes in dry areas would only be considered ponds in
regions with abundant water resources where there are more (and larger)
bodies of water. Despite the lack of official characteristics, there are
several questions that are used to generally distinguish ponds from lakes:

   - Does light reach the bottom of the deepest point of the water body?
   - Does the water body only get small waves (i.e., smaller than 1ft/30cm
   in height)?
   - Is the water body relatively uniform in temperature?

If these questions can be answered with a “yes,” the water body is likely a
pond and not a lake.1
Other national technical typologies do include a lower area requirement
ranging from .5 hectares ( 'two NFL football fields' for USA residents ) to
2 hectares, and other various factors like inflow/outflow, relation to the
water table, sediment suspension, etc.

The proper name of the water feature usually has nothing to do with these,
though. Our area has numerous 'Lake Something's which are impoundments that
barely would would classify as ponds, basically created by real estate
developers as bulldozer scrapes into the local water table.

Michael Patrick
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Philip Barnes 


On 20 July 2018 11:51:39 BST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Was the depression, where the water is, formed by man? If so then it 
>could be tagged as a basin ..
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dbasin
>
>Reservoirs are not only for irrigation, many around me are there to 
>supply water for human consumption.
>So I don't think the use of the water is relevant to defining a
>reservoir.

And some around here are to store water for the canal system. 

Phil (trigpoint) 
>
>On 20/07/18 20:41, Sebastian wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> With artificial I meant it is a hole with a plastic foil. Everything 
>> except sand is artificial and needs to be maintainer in this region.
>>
>> I have been contemplating if these lakes are also used as a reservoir
>
>> for irrigation myself. However I can't confirm or deny this.
>>
>> I'll keep the lake tags then, no pond.
>>
>> PS: I hope my response to the digest gets filed properly.
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Volker Schmidt mailto:vosc...@gmail.com>>
>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
>> mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>
>> Cc:
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:49:46 +0200
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond
>> ... or a reservoir, as Warin points out.
>>
>> On 20 July 2018 at 11:46, Volker Schmidt > <mailto:vosc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> The description in the (OSM) wiki states: "A pond: a body of
>> standing water, man-made in most cases, that is usually
>> smaller than a lake."
>>
>> This definition is different from the Wikipedia definition:
>> " A *pond* is a body
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_of_water>
>> of standing water
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_stagnation>, either natural
>> or artificial, that is usually smaller than a lake
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake> "
>>
>> What are your thoughts?
>>
>>
>> Our wiki is misleading
>> The "thing" in the Mapillary photo is a lake, not a pond,
>> regardless of what the OSM wiki says.
>> It's too large for a pond
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Warin 
Was the depression, where the water is, formed by man? If so then it 
could be tagged as a basin ..

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dbasin

Reservoirs are not only for irrigation, many around me are there to 
supply water for human consumption.

So I don't think the use of the water is relevant to defining a reservoir.

On 20/07/18 20:41, Sebastian wrote:

Hi,

With artificial I meant it is a hole with a plastic foil. Everything 
except sand is artificial and needs to be maintainer in this region.


I have been contemplating if these lakes are also used as a reservoir 
for irrigation myself. However I can't confirm or deny this.


I'll keep the lake tags then, no pond.

PS: I hope my response to the digest gets filed properly.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Volker Schmidt mailto:vosc...@gmail.com>>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>

Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:49:46 +0200
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond
... or a reservoir, as Warin points out.

On 20 July 2018 at 11:46, Volker Schmidt <mailto:vosc...@gmail.com>> wrote:




The description in the (OSM) wiki states: "A pond: a body of
standing water, man-made in most cases, that is usually
smaller than a lake."

This definition is different from the Wikipedia definition:
" A *pond* is a body <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_of_water>
of standing water
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_stagnation>, either natural
or artificial, that is usually smaller than a lake
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake> "

What are your thoughts?


Our wiki is misleading
The "thing" in the Mapillary photo is a lake, not a pond,
regardless of what the OSM wiki says.
It's too large for a pond





___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Sebastian 
 Hi,

With artificial I meant it is a hole with a plastic foil. Everything except
sand is artificial and needs to be maintainer in this region.

I have been contemplating if these lakes are also used as a reservoir for
irrigation myself. However I can't confirm or deny this.

I'll keep the lake tags then, no pond.

PS: I hope my response to the digest gets filed properly.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Volker Schmidt 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:49:46 +0200
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond
... or a reservoir, as Warin points out.

On 20 July 2018 at 11:46, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

>
>
> The description in the (OSM) wiki states: "A pond: a body of standing
>> water, man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake."
>>
> This definition is different from the Wikipedia definition:
> " A *pond* is a body <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_of_water> of standing
> water <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_stagnation>, either natural or
> artificial, that is usually smaller than a lake
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake> "
>
> What are your thoughts?
>>
>
> Our wiki is misleading
> The "thing" in the Mapillary photo is a lake, not a pond, regardless of
> what the OSM wiki says.
> It's too large for a pond
>
>
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Volker Schmidt 
... or a reservoir, as Warin points out.

On 20 July 2018 at 11:46, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

>
>
> The description in the (OSM) wiki states: "A pond: a body of standing
>> water, man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake."
>>
> This definition is different from the Wikipedia definition:
> " A *pond* is a body  of standing
> water , either natural or
> artificial, that is usually smaller than a lake
>  "
>
> What are your thoughts?
>>
>
> Our wiki is misleading
> The "thing" in the Mapillary photo is a lake, not a pond, regardless of
> what the OSM wiki says.
> It's too large for a pond
>
>
>
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Volker Schmidt 
The description in the (OSM) wiki states: "A pond: a body of standing
> water, man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake."
>
This definition is different from the Wikipedia definition:
" A *pond* is a body  of standing
water , either natural or
artificial, that is usually smaller than a lake
 "

What are your thoughts?
>

Our wiki is misleading
The "thing" in the Mapillary photo is a lake, not a pond, regardless of
what the OSM wiki says.
It's too large for a pond
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Warin 

On 20/07/18 19:23, Sebastian wrote:

Hello List,

in the UAE/Emirates Hills area, particular around 'The Springs' there 
are a number or lakes. All lakes are artificial.


Image example here: 
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/bjCPLyUtXUhDAvOPqQWeUw


Reading through Key:water in the OpenStreetMap Wiki I wonder if these 
should be tagged as pond.

natural=water
water=pond

The description in the wiki states: "A pond: a body of standing water, 
man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake."


What does that mean? What is a typical size of a lake and is a large 
artificial 'lake' then no pond?
The body of water I have linked to in Mapillary is a lake of medium 
size in this area. There are smaller and larger ones. All are artificial.


What are your thoughts?


In what way artificial?
A dam to block the water? Then it is a reservoir..
Sorry but I cannot see how water gets in or out.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Lake or Pond

2018-07-20 Thread Sebastian 
Hello List,

in the UAE/Emirates Hills area, particular around 'The Springs' there are a
number or lakes. All lakes are artificial.

Image example here: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/bjCPLyUtXUhDAvOPqQWeUw

Reading through Key:water in the OpenStreetMap Wiki I wonder if these
should be tagged as pond.
natural=water
water=pond

The description in the wiki states: "A pond: a body of standing water,
man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake."

What does that mean? What is a typical size of a lake and is a large
artificial 'lake' then no pond?
The body of water I have linked to in Mapillary is a lake of medium size in
this area. There are smaller and larger ones. All are artificial.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers,
Seb
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging