Re: [Tagging] Designated value as a key
On 09/09/2018 13:53, Johnparis wrote: I agree that it is theoretically a problem for the software not to use access:bicycle=yes (for example) instead of bicycle=yes. I believe I've seen (from Thorsten?) a list of such tags, as a hierarchy. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#Land-based_transportation Data consumers always have this problem with OSM's free-form tagging. I'm not sure the list above is comprehensive. The wiki doesn't (and shouldn't) document "access:foot" etc. there, but the tags that are used of this form can be found at https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=access%3A Lots in that list don't fit this form; of the ones that do (such as https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/access%3AN3#map ) many are presumably local solutions to local problems. Data consumers can choose to consume "access:blah" if they want provided that "blah" is fairly obvious and it's listed in taginfo. This doesn't mean that "access:foot" is a "good tag" though. The current "designated=" list is at https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/designated#values . Most things there probably need retagging on a case-by-case basis; as an example I suspect that "designated=footway" on https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/227007990/history is an orphan from a previous use of "access=designated", which someone then "tidied", but didn't look at the data that they were changing. Best Regards, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Designated value as a key
What if there are 2 groups that have designated access (e.g. foot & bicycle) ? Then we have to start the discussion of the semi-colon separator all over again, during which someone will propose to move the value back to the key (or as part of a key). and we end up with bicycle=designated; foot=designated again (or access:bicycle=designated;access;foot=designated). The access:xxx might be a better solution imho. m. On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 10:12 AM yo paseopor wrote: > > Hi! > > When I tag the access to a way reading the meaning of the traffic sign I miss > some specific conditions. I know I can do it at general times with key > access, but in specific cases access is so "small for me". There are also > conditional tags but with these two keys I don't arrive to cover local > meanings and situations of restriction to some vehicles (example, you have a > living street, which is only allowed for the LOCAL bus line, nor the other > buses. So you can't tag it with bus=yes or bus=designated within the complete > meaning of the restriction given you by the traffic sign. > > For these situations I propose to "flip" designated value and convert it to a > subkey. In that way you would have an escalable subkey that you can complete > with the specific information of that tag. This key will be together with the > combination access=designated so you can complete the information of the > specific designation > > access=designated > designated=local_bus > > designated=bicycle > designated=motor_vehicle > designated=pedestrian > designated=Mo-Fr 9:00-9:30 > designated:en=schoolars only > designated:ca=Només escoles > designated:es=Solo escuelas > > This also applies for other uses like some restrictions done by "marks" > (Example: in a industrial zone you have some private ways...but private of > who? In the reality you will have a traffic sign it says you who can pass or > who cannot) > With normal access scheme you would say...repsol_workers=yes but Would it > better if I can specify the "specific designation" ? > > access=designated > designated=Repsol workers > > > hey! but you have access tags yes/no to do that! ...And the software has to > guess which of the 32 keys with yes=no is for access . For general purposes > it's ok. But for an specific case the software can read this designated value. > > What do you think? > Salut i accessos designats (Health and designated access) > yopaseopor > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Designated value as a key
sent from a phone > On 10. Sep 2018, at 01:09, Johnparis wrote: > > I said "for example." Taginfo has 2716 different values for the "access" key, > only a few of which are documented. there’ll always be a long tail in a system that allows to use any tags you like. Documentation makes most sense for tags that are used in significant numbers, while the biggest part has insignificant usage and is generally ignored. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Designated value as a key
I said "for example." Taginfo has 2716 different values for the "access" key, only a few of which are documented. On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 11:48 PM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > > On 9. Sep 2018, at 14:53, Johnparis wrote: > > BTW, I have deduced through observation that certain "wild" access tags > are the equivalent of access=no + [access_type]=yes. So, for example, a > simple "access=bicycle" means "bicycle only" which is equivalent to the > standard access=no + bicycle=yes. > > > > it doesn’t appear to be something observable on a bigger scale though, there > are 41 instances of access=bicycle in the db ;-) > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/access=bicycle > > > cheers, > Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Designated value as a key
sent from a phone > On 9. Sep 2018, at 14:53, Johnparis wrote: > > BTW, I have deduced through observation that certain "wild" access tags are > the equivalent of access=no + [access_type]=yes. So, for example, a simple > "access=bicycle" means "bicycle only" which is equivalent to the standard > access=no + bicycle=yes. it doesn’t appear to be something observable on a bigger scale though, there are 41 instances of access=bicycle in the db ;-) https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/access=bicycle cheers, Martin___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Designated value as a key
sent from a phone > On 9. Sep 2018, at 12:44, Philip Barnes wrote: > > Local bus is already covered by the psv tag, public service vehicle. +1, the “bus” tag means local bus, coaches (other vehicles of type bus that don’t act as psv) are tagged with “tourist_bus” Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Designated value as a key
I agree that it is theoretically a problem for the software not to use access:bicycle=yes (for example) instead of bicycle=yes. I believe I've seen (from Thorsten?) a list of such tags, as a hierarchy. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#Land-based_transportation Data consumers always have this problem with OSM's free-form tagging. I'm not sure the list above is comprehensive. All the tags you propose would work just fine in combination with access=no, followed by the specific vehicle types and/or conditional tags. BTW, I have deduced through observation that certain "wild" access tags are the equivalent of access=no + [access_type]=yes. So, for example, a simple "access=bicycle" means "bicycle only" which is equivalent to the standard access=no + bicycle=yes. Your "local bus" example translates to access=no local_bus=yes ... if you feel it is necessary to make a distinction between local buses (permitted) and non-local buses (forbidden). I think you are correct that the psv=yes tag covers all buses. If you have a "typical" living street (pedestrians, bicycles) with local buses also permitted but no other vehicles (including non-local buses), you would have: access=no local_bus=yes pedestrian=yes bicycle=yes ... but then again you might want to consider: trash collection vehicles? emergency vehicles? other local public service vehicles (taxis for example)? John On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 1:19 PM Lionel Giard wrote: > I'm not seeing much difference seeing "designated=bicycle" versus the > in-use combinaison "bicycle=designated" (same for the other common tag like > motor_vehicle) except that the first one would use a different "access > paradigm" than everything else. That's not really a simplification to me, > and i don't understand the reason that you would use that. Is there really > a big problem in the processing of such access tag by software ? > > For the very specific employee access, why is it better to use the > "designated subtag" instead of using a "private=Repsol workers" subtag ? As > most employees-only access are tagged via access=private. > > Le dim. 9 sept. 2018 à 12:46, Philip Barnes a > écrit : > >> Local bus is already covered by the psv tag, public service vehicle. >> >> I assume by schoolar you mean scholar? I would consider scholar an >> outdated term, something my grandparents used to say. It is more common to >> refer to students in modern English, which I believe is what you have in >> Spanish? >> >> Phil (trigpoint) >> >> On 9 September 2018 10:08:42 CEST, yo paseopor >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi! >>> >>> When I tag the access to a way reading the meaning of the traffic sign I >>> miss some specific conditions. I know I can do it at general times with key >>> access, but in specific cases access is so "small for me". There are also >>> conditional tags but with these two keys I don't arrive to cover local >>> meanings and situations of restriction to some vehicles (example, you have >>> a living street, which is only allowed for the LOCAL bus line, nor the >>> other buses. So you can't tag it with bus=yes or bus=designated within the >>> complete meaning of the restriction given you by the traffic sign. >>> >>> For these situations I propose to "flip" designated value and convert it >>> to a subkey. In that way you would have an escalable subkey that you can >>> complete with the specific information of that tag. This key will be >>> together with the combination access=designated so you can complete the >>> information of the specific designation >>> >>> access=designated >>> designated=local_bus >>> >>> designated=bicycle >>> designated=motor_vehicle >>> designated=pedestrian >>> designated=Mo-Fr 9:00-9:30 >>> designated:en=schoolars only >>> designated:ca=Només escoles >>> designated:es=Solo escuelas >>> >>> This also applies for other uses like some restrictions done by "marks" >>> (Example: in a industrial zone you have some private ways...but private of >>> who? In the reality you will have a traffic sign it says you who can pass >>> or who cannot) >>> With normal access scheme you would say...repsol_workers=yes but Would >>> it better if I can specify the "specific designation" ? >>> >>> access=designated >>> designated=Repsol workers >>> >>> >>> hey! but you have access tags yes/no to do that! ...And the software has >>> to guess which of the 32 keys with yes=no is for access . For general >>> purposes it's ok. But for an specific case the software can read this >>> designated value. >>> >>> What do you think? >>> Salut i accessos designats (Health and designated access) >>> yopaseopor >>> >> >> -- >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org >
Re: [Tagging] Designated value as a key
I'm not seeing much difference seeing "designated=bicycle" versus the in-use combinaison "bicycle=designated" (same for the other common tag like motor_vehicle) except that the first one would use a different "access paradigm" than everything else. That's not really a simplification to me, and i don't understand the reason that you would use that. Is there really a big problem in the processing of such access tag by software ? For the very specific employee access, why is it better to use the "designated subtag" instead of using a "private=Repsol workers" subtag ? As most employees-only access are tagged via access=private. Le dim. 9 sept. 2018 à 12:46, Philip Barnes a écrit : > Local bus is already covered by the psv tag, public service vehicle. > > I assume by schoolar you mean scholar? I would consider scholar an > outdated term, something my grandparents used to say. It is more common to > refer to students in modern English, which I believe is what you have in > Spanish? > > Phil (trigpoint) > > On 9 September 2018 10:08:42 CEST, yo paseopor > wrote: >> >> Hi! >> >> When I tag the access to a way reading the meaning of the traffic sign I >> miss some specific conditions. I know I can do it at general times with key >> access, but in specific cases access is so "small for me". There are also >> conditional tags but with these two keys I don't arrive to cover local >> meanings and situations of restriction to some vehicles (example, you have >> a living street, which is only allowed for the LOCAL bus line, nor the >> other buses. So you can't tag it with bus=yes or bus=designated within the >> complete meaning of the restriction given you by the traffic sign. >> >> For these situations I propose to "flip" designated value and convert it >> to a subkey. In that way you would have an escalable subkey that you can >> complete with the specific information of that tag. This key will be >> together with the combination access=designated so you can complete the >> information of the specific designation >> >> access=designated >> designated=local_bus >> >> designated=bicycle >> designated=motor_vehicle >> designated=pedestrian >> designated=Mo-Fr 9:00-9:30 >> designated:en=schoolars only >> designated:ca=Només escoles >> designated:es=Solo escuelas >> >> This also applies for other uses like some restrictions done by "marks" >> (Example: in a industrial zone you have some private ways...but private of >> who? In the reality you will have a traffic sign it says you who can pass >> or who cannot) >> With normal access scheme you would say...repsol_workers=yes but Would it >> better if I can specify the "specific designation" ? >> >> access=designated >> designated=Repsol workers >> >> >> hey! but you have access tags yes/no to do that! ...And the software has >> to guess which of the 32 keys with yes=no is for access . For general >> purposes it's ok. But for an specific case the software can read this >> designated value. >> >> What do you think? >> Salut i accessos designats (Health and designated access) >> yopaseopor >> > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Designated value as a key
Local bus is already covered by the psv tag, public service vehicle. I assume by schoolar you mean scholar? I would consider scholar an outdated term, something my grandparents used to say. It is more common to refer to students in modern English, which I believe is what you have in Spanish? Phil (trigpoint) On 9 September 2018 10:08:42 CEST, yo paseopor wrote: >Hi! > >When I tag the access to a way reading the meaning of the traffic sign >I >miss some specific conditions. I know I can do it at general times with >key >access, but in specific cases access is so "small for me". There are >also >conditional tags but with these two keys I don't arrive to cover local >meanings and situations of restriction to some vehicles (example, you >have >a living street, which is only allowed for the LOCAL bus line, nor the >other buses. So you can't tag it with bus=yes or bus=designated within >the >complete meaning of the restriction given you by the traffic sign. > >For these situations I propose to "flip" designated value and convert >it to >a subkey. In that way you would have an escalable subkey that you can >complete with the specific information of that tag. This key will be >together with the combination access=designated so you can complete the >information of the specific designation > >access=designated >designated=local_bus > >designated=bicycle >designated=motor_vehicle >designated=pedestrian >designated=Mo-Fr 9:00-9:30 >designated:en=schoolars only >designated:ca=Només escoles >designated:es=Solo escuelas > >This also applies for other uses like some restrictions done by "marks" >(Example: in a industrial zone you have some private ways...but private >of >who? In the reality you will have a traffic sign it says you who can >pass >or who cannot) >With normal access scheme you would say...repsol_workers=yes but Would >it >better if I can specify the "specific designation" ? > >access=designated >designated=Repsol workers > > >hey! but you have access tags yes/no to do that! ...And the software >has to >guess which of the 32 keys with yes=no is for access . For general >purposes >it's ok. But for an specific case the software can read this designated >value. > >What do you think? >Salut i accessos designats (Health and designated access) >yopaseopor -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
