Re: [Tagging] Handle with care (was: Accuracy of survey)

[Kotya Karapetyan]

Hi André,

I don't know why your text was removed.

> It would produce a message saying something like:
> "The coordinates you are trying to change are accurate to 25 cm.
> You probably shouldn't change this tag, certainly not with GPS data.
> Are you certain that you will not destroy valuable data and do you want
to continue?".
> And if he replies "no", his attempt is canceled.

I like this approach. I wonder if it is technically feasible.

My point was that to make it generic may be more difficult than creating a
very specific tag/function for survey-based data.
And I didn't understand the benefit for your other examples. But otherwise
I support it.

Cheers,
Kotya




On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 7:16 PM, André Pirard 
wrote:

> On 2015-09-09 23:39, moltonel wrote :
>
> On 9 September 2015 21:46:54 GMT+01:00, "André Pirard" 
>   wrote:
>
> There are various reasons for warning other mappers to be careful about
> their updates.
> I once temporarily overlaid two walking routes to show the effect of
> displaying two sorts of icons.
> Or I left in for a while drawing errors of a plugin as the best way to
> show the author what I talk about.
> Despite a don't touch note explaining why, a good soul passes, not
> reading note and makes a "correction".
>
> Please run experiments like this on a test db, not on the main one. It's easy 
> to point your editor to dev.openstreetmap.org for example (quoting from 
> memory, not 100% sure). You never know when a data consumer will stumble upon 
> your experiment, live or in a downloaded snapshot. Nobody expects osm data to 
> be perfect all the time, but there's no point in knowingly making it worse.
>
> You are off topic, as well as the following messages.
> While I admit that my examples are suboptimal, the matter is extending
> very simply to other tags the idea of preventing to replace precisely
> triangulated coordinates by loose GPS ones.
> Let us, for a better example, say that someone tagged a strange looking
> name and that he knows for sure that the spelling is correct.  After the
> third time the name was changed to a apparently better but wrong spelling,
> he will want to enforce reading the note that nobody reads. That's all
> there is to the suggestion you removed from this message.
>
> Now responding to your accusations.
> What big sin is that to discover errors and leave them a few more days on
> the map for the developer of the tool that produced them to have a look at
> them?  Is there a prescribed time limit?
> Like you, I have always advocated a sandbox, especially for helping
> novices. I've never heard of one and it's the first time I do. But JOSM
> says "The server responds with the return code 404 instead of 200. " when
> trying to validate http://dev.openstreetmap.org/ as well as
> http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/
> Thanks, but please give correct information.
> But a sandbox wouldn't help with the first bad example because it's to be
> looked at on Waymarked trails and that program does not display sandbox
> data.  And as we're told that those URL if they worked wouldn't have a
> renderer, they wouldn't be very convenient to use.
> Please make practical suggestions !!!
>
> On 2015-09-10 18:41, Kotya Karapetyan wrote :
>
> But otherwise I think there is a difference between a general warning or
> message from one mapper to another (which in its own is an interesting idea
> but can lead to dialogues and discussions) and a specific technical feature
> that would prevent moving an accurately positioned tag.
>
> Imagine there is a real-world marker at 50.000° N:
> http://www.dieweltenbummler.de/geografisches/geografische-besonderheiten/50-breitengrad/
> Someone draws it in OSM at 50° N. Then I come there with a smartphone,
> measure the location, find it at 49.9° and edit the OSM accordingly. It is
> wrong by definition (providing that the real-world marker location is known
> precisely), but there is no mechanism to prevent such editing.
>
> I think it's a very specific and relevant gap, and would love seeing it
> solved elegantly.
>
> That is what my suggestion does and I wonder why the heck it has been
> removed from this message !!!
> It would produce a message saying something like:  "The coordinates you
> are trying to change are accurate to 25 cm.  You probably shouldn't change
> this tag, certainly not with GPS data.  Are you certain that you will not
> destroy valuable data and do you want to continue?".
> And if he replies "no", his attempt is canceled.
> This kind of message would be possible for any tag and I don't understand
> why you want it to be specific.
> What elegance does it lack? You should explain. It allows to make updates
> to better that 25 cm.
> We know that it's typical of OSM to be crowded with stupid vandalism ("can
> I erase what I don't understand?"), even the DWG changing names to spelling
> mistakes i could explain, but someone defying such 

Re: [Tagging] Handle with care (was: Accuracy of survey)

[Ruben Maes]

Friday 11 September 2015 19:16:09, André Pirard:
> But JOSM says "The server responds with the return code 404 instead of 200. " 
> when trying to validate http://dev.openstreetmap.org/ as well as 
> http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/
> Thanks, but please give correct information.

Hi André

The exact URL you need to enter is:
http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/api

To edit the map you'll have to create another account at 
http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/.

-- 
The field "from" of an email is about as reliable as the address written on the 
back of an envelope. That's why this message is OpenPGP signed.

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
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Re: [Tagging] Handle with care (was: Accuracy of survey)

[André Pirard]

  
  
On 2015-09-09 23:39, moltonel wrote :



  On 9 September 2015 21:46:54 GMT+01:00, "André Pirard"  wrote:

  
There are various reasons for warning other mappers to be careful about
their updates.
I once temporarily overlaid two walking routes to show the effect of
displaying two sorts of icons.
Or I left in for a while drawing errors of a plugin as the best way to
show the author what I talk about.
Despite a don't touch note explaining why, a good soul passes, not
reading note and makes a "correction".

  
  
Please run experiments like this on a test db, not on the main one. It's easy to point your editor to dev.openstreetmap.org for example (quoting from memory, not 100% sure). You never know when a data consumer will stumble upon your experiment, live or in a downloaded snapshot. Nobody expects osm data to be perfect all the time, but there's no point in knowingly making it worse.


You are off topic, as well as the following messages.
While I admit that my examples are suboptimal, the matter is
extending very simply to other tags the idea of preventing to
replace precisely triangulated coordinates by loose GPS ones.
Let us, for a better example, say that someone tagged a strange
looking name and that he knows for sure that the spelling is
correct.  After the third time the name was changed to a apparently
better but wrong spelling, he will want to enforce reading the note
that nobody reads. That's all there is to the suggestion you removed
from this message.

Now responding to your accusations.
What big sin is that to discover errors and leave them a few more
days on the map for the developer of the tool that produced them to
have a look at them?  Is there a prescribed time limit?
Like you, I have always advocated a sandbox, especially for helping
novices. I've never heard of one and it's the first time I do. But
JOSM says "The server responds with the return code 404 instead of
200. " when trying to validate http://dev.openstreetmap.org/
as well as http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/
Thanks, but please give correct information.
But a sandbox wouldn't help with the first bad example because it's
to be looked at on Waymarked trails and that program does not
display sandbox data.  And as we're told that those URL if they
worked wouldn't have a renderer, they wouldn't be very convenient to
use.
Please make practical suggestions !!!

On 2015-09-10 18:41, Kotya Karapetyan wrote :

  But
  otherwise I think there is a difference between a general
  warning or message from one mapper to another (which in its
  own is an interesting idea but can lead to dialogues and
  discussions) and a specific technical feature that would
  prevent moving an accurately positioned tag. 
  

  Imagine
  there is a real-world marker at 50.000° N: http://www.dieweltenbummler.de/geografisches/geografische-besonderheiten/50-breitengrad/
  Someone draws it in OSM at 50°
  N. Then I come there with a smartphone, measure the location,
  find it at 49.9° and edit the OSM accordingly. It is wrong by
  definition (providing that the real-world marker location is
  known precisely), but there is no mechanism to prevent such
  editing.
  

  I think it's a very specific
  and relevant gap, and would love seeing it solved elegantly.

That is what my suggestion does and I wonder why the heck it has
been removed from this message !!!
It would produce a message saying something like:  "The coordinates
you are trying to change are accurate to 25 cm.  You probably
shouldn't change this tag, certainly not with GPS data.  Are you
certain that you will not destroy valuable data and do you want to
continue?".
And if he replies "no", his attempt is canceled.
This kind of message would be possible for any tag and I don't
understand why you want it to be specific.
What elegance does it lack? You should explain. It allows to make
updates to better that 25 cm.
We know that it's typical of OSM to be crowded with stupid vandalism
("can I erase what I don't understand?"), even the DWG changing
names to spelling mistakes i could explain, but someone defying such
a warning should be banned for life.
Why was my text removed?

Cheers



  

  André.

  


  


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Re: [Tagging] Handle with care (was: Accuracy of survey)

[Kotya Karapetyan]

Hi André,

I agree with moltonel.

But otherwise I think there is a difference between a general warning or
message from one mapper to another (which in its own is an interesting idea
but can lead to dialogues and discussions) and a specific technical feature
that would prevent moving an accurately positioned tag.

Imagine there is a real-world marker at 50.000° N:
http://www.dieweltenbummler.de/geografisches/geografische-besonderheiten/50-breitengrad/
Someone draws it in OSM at 50° N. Then I come there with a smartphone,
measure the location, find it at 49.9° and edit the OSM accordingly. It is
wrong by definition (providing that the real-world marker location is known
precisely), but there is no mechanism to prevent such editing.

I think it's a very specific and relevant gap, and would love seeing it
solved elegantly.

Kind regards,
Kotya


On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 11:39 PM, moltonel  wrote:

>
>
> On 9 September 2015 21:46:54 GMT+01:00, "André Pirard" <
> a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >There are various reasons for warning other mappers to be careful about
> >their updates.
> >I once temporarily overlaid two walking routes to show the effect of
> >displaying two sorts of icons.
> >Or I left in for a while drawing errors of a plugin as the best way to
> >show the author what I talk about.
> >Despite a don't touch note explaining why, a good soul passes, not
> >reading note and makes a "correction".
>
> Please run experiments like this on a test db, not on the main one. It's
> easy to point your editor to dev.openstreetmap.org for example (quoting
> from memory, not 100% sure). You never know when a data consumer will
> stumble upon your experiment, live or in a downloaded snapshot. Nobody
> expects osm data to be perfect all the time, but there's no point in
> knowingly making it worse.
> --
> Vincent Dp
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Handle with care (was: Accuracy of survey)

[Volker Schmidt]

I am not expert enough to know if it's tecnically feasable:
Could we not put such markers in a separate db and make that available as
TMS/WMS service?

Volker 

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Handle with care (was: Accuracy of survey)

[André Pirard]

  
  
On 2014-12-29 15:27, Kotya Karapetyan
  wrote :


  
Happy holidays and 2015 everyone!


> what is
needed here is some tag, saying "don't touch these
> coordinates,
  they've been surveyed with high(est) accuracy".


I second this idea.


Just recently I discovered that something in this direction
  already exists: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_France/Rep%C3%A8res_G%C3%A9od%C3%A9siques#Permanence_des_rep.C3.A8res
Example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=23/43.42272/6.76665
However it seems to be France-specific. I don't know if a
  similar thing exists e.g. for Germany.


Since such reference points are quite common, I would
  support the idea of creating a special tag for them, requiring
  that they are not moved. However we need a clear consensus on
  how we define the "sufficient" accuracy and how the data for
  such points will be updated.

  

These are very good ideas but restricted to a very particular case.
There are various reasons for warning other mappers to be careful
about their updates.
I once temporarily overlaid two walking routes to show the effect of
displaying two sorts of icons.
Or I left in for a while drawing errors of a plugin as the best way
to show the author what I talk about.
Despite a don't touch note explaining why, a good soul passes, not
reading note and makes a "correction".
What is needed here is an "are you sure" tag named
[keyname:]warning=* or [keyname:caution]=* that the editor uses any
time a mapper wants to change that key's value (not uploads a dozen
updates)  to display the message and ask for a confirmation.
Or should it be [keyname:]note:warn=* and spare another wiki page?
keyname can be "geometry" as in source:geometry.
Et voilà.  An all-purpose simple guardrail, a small update to the
wiki and passing the word to the editors.

What do you think?

Cheers



  

  André.

  




  


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Re: [Tagging] Handle with care (was: Accuracy of survey)

[moltonel]

On 9 September 2015 21:46:54 GMT+01:00, "André Pirard" 
 wrote:
>There are various reasons for warning other mappers to be careful about
>their updates.
>I once temporarily overlaid two walking routes to show the effect of
>displaying two sorts of icons.
>Or I left in for a while drawing errors of a plugin as the best way to
>show the author what I talk about.
>Despite a don't touch note explaining why, a good soul passes, not
>reading note and makes a "correction".

Please run experiments like this on a test db, not on the main one. It's easy 
to point your editor to dev.openstreetmap.org for example (quoting from memory, 
not 100% sure). You never know when a data consumer will stumble upon your 
experiment, live or in a downloaded snapshot. Nobody expects osm data to be 
perfect all the time, but there's no point in knowingly making it worse.
-- 
Vincent Dp

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