Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

[Greg Troxel]

Blake Girardot  writes:

 I think issues of does the data belong in OSM are separate issues, I
 am just interested in how to map it and tag it well. I would be
 mapping nothing but ground truthed data that we already map every day,
 trees and light poles and ground type, landuse. It is publicly
 available data (CC0).
>>
>> Sure, that's fine, but beware that you are perhaps verging on an import.
>
> For sure not an import in my mind (6 points at the moment,hand mapped
> from a ground survey form which includes a picture of the HLZ from
> directly overhead), but happy to take the consensus here if I should
> treat it as an import and hopefully with the tagging figured out, any
> "near import" would be generally accepted through that full process.

If you are talking 6 points, and you the human are looking at all 6, and
someone checking them (even with just imagery), then this isn't an
import.  If you had 100 and used a script and spot-checked, you'd be
over the line.   I just couldn't tell and wanted to point this out in
case.


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Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

[Kevin Kenny]

That sounds good for the wooden (!) helipad visible in
https://binged.it/2gdSX38 , too.  That's no longer in regular use, and the
H has been removed from it, because the fire tower visible to the southwest
is no longer staffed. It's still viable for an emergency (and sees an
occasional flight to maintain the solar-powered radio repeater that's still
located on the tower).

I don't want to map that one until I've climbed up there with GPS. There's
rather a lot of topography, and Bing often hasn't corrected for squint
angle in that part of the world. I particularly suspect that it might be
off because the platform looks a little askew from being rectangular.

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 7:07 PM, Blake Girardot  wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Tom Pfeifer 
> wrote:
> > aeroway=helipad should be used only for built-up infrastructure, not for
> > emergency places that have a different use normally.
> >
> > An emergency landing place is nothing but a predefined clear space, it
> could
> > be a soccer pitch or a big lawn in a park in normal situations.
>
> This is exactly right to my understanding and tagging. My
> understanding and as I have mapped in the past a aeroway=helipad is
> for a known built up permanent for the most part landing area. I
> mapped a lot of these in Nepal.
>
> > There is already "emergency=landing_site" defined and used 1800 times
> that
> > seems to fit the purpose of Blake exactly?
> >
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dlanding_site
>
> This does sound like exactly the right tag for what we are planning on
> mapping.
>
> > On 22.11.2016 14:02, Andrew Errington wrote:
> >>
> >> I tag them as aeroway=helipad, and it looks like this:
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.2932/127.5317
> >>
> >> There are a lot of them in the mountains of Korea.  Usually marked out
> >> with a pattern of white stones embedded in the ground.
> >>
> >> Would like to know if there's a better way, or if doing it this way is
> >> wrong.  Or right.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >>
> >> On Nov 22, 2016 8:41 PM, "Blake Girardot"  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear friends,
> >>
> >> I have worked with folks doing ground surveys of helicopter landing
> >> zones during emergency response.
> >>
> >> These are ground truthed locations, observed by active search and
> >> rescue helicopter pilots collecting the basic minimum critical
> ground
> >> survey items for an HLZ for their aircraft type.
> >>
> >> They collect the data and provide it in the public domain and I
> would
> >> like to map it.
> >>
> >> I think the vast majority of the items collected are already well
> >> supported in OSM, trees, light poles, ground type, area, grade,
> >> landuse.
> >>
> >> What would be the best way to map this data? Does it need its own
> >> namespace? Just map  regular OSM tagging and render the data myself
> >> custom?
> >>
> >> I think issues of does the data belong in OSM are separate issues, I
> >> am just interested in how to map it and tag it well. I would be
> >> mapping nothing but ground truthed data that we already map every
> day,
> >> trees and light poles and ground type, landuse. It is publicly
> >> available data (CC0).
> >>
> >> Other data could and should be added specific to HLZ's so we will
> need
> >> to discuss any non traditional tags that I would like to see be used
> >> for the HLZs mapped.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Blake
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

[Alberto Nogaro]

>-Original Message-
>From: Tom Pfeifer [mailto:t.pfei...@computer.org]
>Sent: mercoledì 23 novembre 2016 00:49
>To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
>Subject: Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing
>zones?
>As we just learned from the Korean mountains example, some light markings
>of a pre-planned emergency site does not constitute a helipad.
>
>Maybe the "purpose-built" goes a bit to far and causes misunderstanding, but
>I would consider a helipad to have some regular use, e.g. to receive hospital
>patients, to serve a country's president or the CEO of a large company, etc.

Ah, now it's clearer to me, I had not considered the regular use condition for 
the helipad. Since I'm mostly dealing with spots on the mountains, which are 
marked with an H, and are conceived only for emergencies or for otherwise very 
infrequent use (for example, to resupply a hut a few times a year) I now 
understand that the correct tagging should then be emergency=landing_site, 
maybe with an additional landing_site=marked.

Alberto


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Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

[Blake Girardot]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>>> On Nov 22, 2016 8:41 PM, "Blake Girardot"  wrote:
>>>
>>> I have worked with folks doing ground surveys of helicopter landing
>>> zones during emergency response.
>>>
>>> These are ground truthed locations, observed by active search and
>>> rescue helicopter pilots collecting the basic minimum critical ground
>>> survey items for an HLZ for their aircraft type.
>>>
>>> They collect the data and provide it in the public domain and I would
>>> like to map it.
>>>
>>> I think the vast majority of the items collected are already well
>>> supported in OSM, trees, light poles, ground type, area, grade,
>>> landuse.
>>>
>>> What would be the best way to map this data? Does it need its own
>>> namespace? Just map  regular OSM tagging and render the data myself
>>> custom?
>
> For things that exist and are describable independent of caring about
> helicopters, definitely you should use regular tags.  If there is some
> feature of interest that doesn't have established tagging, you'll have
> to invent it.  But choose tags so that anyone who cares about the thing
> in question can be happy with, rather than only people looking at the
> thing from the helicopter viewpoint.  (Easier said than done, I know.)
>

This is very insightful, and excellent rule of thumb to keep in mind
about keeping the right perspective, the osm mappers perspective.

>>> I think issues of does the data belong in OSM are separate issues, I
>>> am just interested in how to map it and tag it well. I would be
>>> mapping nothing but ground truthed data that we already map every day,
>>> trees and light poles and ground type, landuse. It is publicly
>>> available data (CC0).
>
> Sure, that's fine, but beware that you are perhaps verging on an import.

For sure not an import in my mind (6 points at the moment,hand mapped
from a ground survey form which includes a picture of the HLZ from
directly overhead), but happy to take the consensus here if I should
treat it as an import and hopefully with the tagging figured out, any
"near import" would be generally accepted through that full process.

Thank you very much for helping get this sorted out.


>
>>> Other data could and should be added specific to HLZ's so we will need
>>> to discuss any non traditional tags that I would like to see be used
>>> for the HLZs mapped.
>
> Yes.  Here, I think it's mostly "this is a landing zone".
> Tom Pfeifer  writes:
>
>> aeroway=helipad should be used only for built-up infrastructure, not
>> for emergency places that have a different use normally.
>
> It sounds like in the Korean mountain case that in my cases there are
> on-ground markings at these sites.  That might be an intermediate case,
> not a formal helipad but a pre-prepared and marked LZ.  I have also seen
> these in the US, but not that often.  One case was in a big paved area
> at the end of a road used to access a frequently-used steep trail.  It
> was pretty obvious they were expecting trouble.
>
>> An emergency landing place is nothing but a predefined clear space, it
>> could be a soccer pitch or a big lawn in a park in normal situations.
>
> Yes.  My town probably has a half dozen of these.  They are used for
> medical evacuation helicopters (for people extricated from bad car
> crashes who are iffy on making it, basically).
>
>> There is already "emergency=landing_site" defined and used 1800 times
>> that seems to fit the purpose of Blake exactly?
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dlanding_site
>
> That seems to fit, although the image has an H on the ground.
>
> So perhaps we need
>
>   emergency=landing_site means not a formal helipad that may or may not
>   have some markings
>
>   landing_site=unmarked means there is no on-ground markings for the
>   pilot. (In these cases fire/police vehicles often make a circle to show
>   the safe area and light it, because it's often dark and the
>   trees/power lines cannot be seen.)
>
>   landing_site=marked means there is a stone box or ring or a painted
>   circle with an H, or something that is obviously intended to let the
>   pilot know the surveyed-safe area to land
>
> Since a helicopter can land anywhere big enough and unobstructed enough,
> more or less, I think there's merit in having a tag (or defining
> emergency=landing_site to be this) to denote places that are on a list
> of preplaned emergency landing sites maintained by the relevant
> authorities.
>
> The above comment will bring out the verifiabilty extremists.  My point
> is that it would be nice for the local fire departments to be able to
> use OSM, and that means having medflight LZs as well as water sources
> (ponds with standpipes) etc.  It's possible to verify the LZs by talking
> to the fire department people, and the reality that is being mapped is
> 

Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

[Blake Girardot]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:
> aeroway=helipad should be used only for built-up infrastructure, not for
> emergency places that have a different use normally.
>
> An emergency landing place is nothing but a predefined clear space, it could
> be a soccer pitch or a big lawn in a park in normal situations.

This is exactly right to my understanding and tagging. My
understanding and as I have mapped in the past a aeroway=helipad is
for a known built up permanent for the most part landing area. I
mapped a lot of these in Nepal.

> There is already "emergency=landing_site" defined and used 1800 times that
> seems to fit the purpose of Blake exactly?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dlanding_site

This does sound like exactly the right tag for what we are planning on mapping.

> On 22.11.2016 14:02, Andrew Errington wrote:
>>
>> I tag them as aeroway=helipad, and it looks like this:
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.2932/127.5317
>>
>> There are a lot of them in the mountains of Korea.  Usually marked out
>> with a pattern of white stones embedded in the ground.
>>
>> Would like to know if there's a better way, or if doing it this way is
>> wrong.  Or right.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> On Nov 22, 2016 8:41 PM, "Blake Girardot" > > wrote:
>>
>> Dear friends,
>>
>> I have worked with folks doing ground surveys of helicopter landing
>> zones during emergency response.
>>
>> These are ground truthed locations, observed by active search and
>> rescue helicopter pilots collecting the basic minimum critical ground
>> survey items for an HLZ for their aircraft type.
>>
>> They collect the data and provide it in the public domain and I would
>> like to map it.
>>
>> I think the vast majority of the items collected are already well
>> supported in OSM, trees, light poles, ground type, area, grade,
>> landuse.
>>
>> What would be the best way to map this data? Does it need its own
>> namespace? Just map  regular OSM tagging and render the data myself
>> custom?
>>
>> I think issues of does the data belong in OSM are separate issues, I
>> am just interested in how to map it and tag it well. I would be
>> mapping nothing but ground truthed data that we already map every day,
>> trees and light poles and ground type, landuse. It is publicly
>> available data (CC0).
>>
>> Other data could and should be added specific to HLZ's so we will need
>> to discuss any non traditional tags that I would like to see be used
>> for the HLZs mapped.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Blake
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 22.11.2016 15:52, Alberto Nogaro wrote:


I had always thought that "a large H painted on it visible from the air" was 
enough to mark the spot as aeroway=helipad, even if the place is mainly conceived for 
emergency purposes.


As we just learned from the Korean mountains example, some light 
markings of a pre-planned emergency site does not constitute a helipad.


Also, if I paint a "H" on my roof, it means nothing initially and does 
not automatically constitute a helipad.



And that emergency=landing_site had to be used for places without any marking, 
just flat and suitable for landing (either by airplanes and helicopters).


No, please, if being flat were the only criterion, I would need to tag 
each and every soccer pitch and public lawn. Thus it need some 
preselection. When working for a volunteer mountain rescue team, we had 
a list of potential places where we could expect a chopper to land; 
those were carefully pre-checked on the ground for potential hazards.



Now it looks like a large visible and permanent H, as a "predefined" but not a 
"purpose-built infrastructure", should rather be marked as emergency=landing_site?


Maybe the "purpose-built" goes a bit to far and causes misunderstanding, 
but I would consider a helipad to have some regular use, e.g. to receive 
hospital patients, to serve a country's president or the CEO of a large 
company, etc.



And what about places which have nothing more than a visible and permanent H, 
but can also be used for purposes different from an emergency (for example, 
supply materials not transportable by other means)?


The H means helipad, not emergency. Thus of course a helipad can serve 
different purposes, ranging from emergencies over material transport, 
CEO traffic to touristic flights...



Furthermore, how do we specify if an emergency=landing_site is conceived for 
helicopters or airplanes as well?


You could describe that in sub-tags.





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Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

[Alberto Nogaro]

>-Original Message-
>From: Tom Pfeifer [mailto:t.pfei...@computer.org]
>Sent: martedì 22 novembre 2016 14:33
>To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
>Subject: Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing
>zones?
>
>aeroway=helipad should be used only for built-up infrastructure, not for
>emergency places that have a different use normally.
>
>An emergency landing place is nothing but a predefined clear space, it could
>be a soccer pitch or a big lawn in a park in normal situations.

I'm confused by the latest edits on the aeroway=helipad and 
emergency=landing_site wiki pages. I had always thought that "a large H painted 
on it visible from the air" was enough to mark the spot as aeroway=helipad, 
even if the place is mainly conceived for emergency purposes. And that 
emergency=landing_site had to be used for places without any marking, just flat 
and suitable for landing (either by airplanes and helicopters). Now it looks 
like a large visible and permanent H, as a "predefined" but not a 
"purpose-built infrastructure", should rather be marked as 
emergency=landing_site? And what about places which have nothing more than a 
visible and permanent H, but can also be used for purposes different from an 
emergency (for example, supply materials not transportable by other means)? 
Furthermore, how do we specify if an emergency=landing_site is conceived for 
helicopters or airplanes as well?

Alberto


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Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

[Greg Troxel]

>> On Nov 22, 2016 8:41 PM, "Blake Girardot"  wrote:
>>
>> I have worked with folks doing ground surveys of helicopter landing
>> zones during emergency response.
>>
>> These are ground truthed locations, observed by active search and
>> rescue helicopter pilots collecting the basic minimum critical ground
>> survey items for an HLZ for their aircraft type.
>>
>> They collect the data and provide it in the public domain and I would
>> like to map it.
>>
>> I think the vast majority of the items collected are already well
>> supported in OSM, trees, light poles, ground type, area, grade,
>> landuse.
>>
>> What would be the best way to map this data? Does it need its own
>> namespace? Just map  regular OSM tagging and render the data myself
>> custom?

For things that exist and are describable independent of caring about
helicopters, definitely you should use regular tags.  If there is some
feature of interest that doesn't have established tagging, you'll have
to invent it.  But choose tags so that anyone who cares about the thing
in question can be happy with, rather than only people looking at the
thing from the helicopter viewpoint.  (Easier said than done, I know.)

>> I think issues of does the data belong in OSM are separate issues, I
>> am just interested in how to map it and tag it well. I would be
>> mapping nothing but ground truthed data that we already map every day,
>> trees and light poles and ground type, landuse. It is publicly
>> available data (CC0).

Sure, that's fine, but beware that you are perhaps verging on an import.

>> Other data could and should be added specific to HLZ's so we will need
>> to discuss any non traditional tags that I would like to see be used
>> for the HLZs mapped.

Yes.  Here, I think it's mostly "this is a landing zone".

Tom Pfeifer  writes:

> aeroway=helipad should be used only for built-up infrastructure, not
> for emergency places that have a different use normally.

It sounds like in the Korean mountain case that in my cases there are
on-ground markings at these sites.  That might be an intermediate case,
not a formal helipad but a pre-prepared and marked LZ.  I have also seen
these in the US, but not that often.  One case was in a big paved area
at the end of a road used to access a frequently-used steep trail.  It
was pretty obvious they were expecting trouble.

> An emergency landing place is nothing but a predefined clear space, it
> could be a soccer pitch or a big lawn in a park in normal situations.

Yes.  My town probably has a half dozen of these.  They are used for
medical evacuation helicopters (for people extricated from bad car
crashes who are iffy on making it, basically).

> There is already "emergency=landing_site" defined and used 1800 times
> that seems to fit the purpose of Blake exactly?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dlanding_site

That seems to fit, although the image has an H on the ground.

So perhaps we need

  emergency=landing_site means not a formal helipad that may or may not
  have some markings

  landing_site=unmarked means there is no on-ground markings for the
  pilot. (In these cases fire/police vehicles often make a circle to show
  the safe area and light it, because it's often dark and the
  trees/power lines cannot be seen.)

  landing_site=marked means there is a stone box or ring or a painted
  circle with an H, or something that is obviously intended to let the
  pilot know the surveyed-safe area to land

Since a helicopter can land anywhere big enough and unobstructed enough,
more or less, I think there's merit in having a tag (or defining
emergency=landing_site to be this) to denote places that are on a list
of preplaned emergency landing sites maintained by the relevant
authorities.

The above comment will bring out the verifiabilty extremists.  My point
is that it would be nice for the local fire departments to be able to
use OSM, and that means having medflight LZs as well as water sources
(ponds with standpipes) etc.  It's possible to verify the LZs by talking
to the fire department people, and the reality that is being mapped is
not "this space is big enough for a helicopter" but "the fire department
has this place on their list of LZs".

So I would therefore add

  landing_site:source = official

when the site is known to be on the pre-planned list of some emergency
service, or something like that.


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Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

[Tom Pfeifer]

aeroway=helipad should be used only for built-up infrastructure, not for 
emergency places that have a different use normally.


An emergency landing place is nothing but a predefined clear space, it 
could be a soccer pitch or a big lawn in a park in normal situations.


There is already "emergency=landing_site" defined and used 1800 times 
that seems to fit the purpose of Blake exactly?


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dlanding_site


On 22.11.2016 14:02, Andrew Errington wrote:

I tag them as aeroway=helipad, and it looks like this:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.2932/127.5317

There are a lot of them in the mountains of Korea.  Usually marked out
with a pattern of white stones embedded in the ground.

Would like to know if there's a better way, or if doing it this way is
wrong.  Or right.

Thanks,

Andrew


On Nov 22, 2016 8:41 PM, "Blake Girardot" > wrote:

Dear friends,

I have worked with folks doing ground surveys of helicopter landing
zones during emergency response.

These are ground truthed locations, observed by active search and
rescue helicopter pilots collecting the basic minimum critical ground
survey items for an HLZ for their aircraft type.

They collect the data and provide it in the public domain and I would
like to map it.

I think the vast majority of the items collected are already well
supported in OSM, trees, light poles, ground type, area, grade,
landuse.

What would be the best way to map this data? Does it need its own
namespace? Just map  regular OSM tagging and render the data myself
custom?

I think issues of does the data belong in OSM are separate issues, I
am just interested in how to map it and tag it well. I would be
mapping nothing but ground truthed data that we already map every day,
trees and light poles and ground type, landuse. It is publicly
available data (CC0).

Other data could and should be added specific to HLZ's so we will need
to discuss any non traditional tags that I would like to see be used
for the HLZs mapped.

Cheers,
Blake



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Re: [Tagging] How might we best map emergency helicopter landing zones?

[Andrew Errington]

I tag them as aeroway=helipad, and it looks like this:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.2932/127.5317

There are a lot of them in the mountains of Korea.  Usually marked out with
a pattern of white stones embedded in the ground.

Would like to know if there's a better way, or if doing it this way is
wrong.  Or right.

Thanks,

Andrew

On Nov 22, 2016 8:41 PM, "Blake Girardot"  wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> I have worked with folks doing ground surveys of helicopter landing
> zones during emergency response.
>
> These are ground truthed locations, observed by active search and
> rescue helicopter pilots collecting the basic minimum critical ground
> survey items for an HLZ for their aircraft type.
>
> They collect the data and provide it in the public domain and I would
> like to map it.
>
> I think the vast majority of the items collected are already well
> supported in OSM, trees, light poles, ground type, area, grade,
> landuse.
>
> What would be the best way to map this data? Does it need its own
> namespace? Just map  regular OSM tagging and render the data myself
> custom?
>
> I think issues of does the data belong in OSM are separate issues, I
> am just interested in how to map it and tag it well. I would be
> mapping nothing but ground truthed data that we already map every day,
> trees and light poles and ground type, landuse. It is publicly
> available data (CC0).
>
> Other data could and should be added specific to HLZ's so we will need
> to discuss any non traditional tags that I would like to see be used
> for the HLZs mapped.
>
> Cheers,
> Blake
>
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