Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Hufkratzer]

I thought in OSM we do not map temporary things like people playing 
something in sports halls (use of sports halls) but only verifiable 
things like the permanent equipment that allows them to do it. But 
anyway it is probably better to document the leisure=sports_hall tag. So 
I have begun to prepare a proposal for such a documentation:, see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/leisure=sports_hall .


The main reason why it's still a draft and not a proposal is that I 
don't know for what kinds of sports halls (apart from the typical small 
sport=multi halls) the tag shall be allowed to use. As mentioned 
previously, the tag has already been used for a tennis hall once. Is 
that a correct use of the tag leisure=sports_hall in your opinion? Does 
the combination leisure=sports_hall + sport=tennis really identify a 
tennis hall? Isn't that just a sports hall with tennis courts inside of 
which one doesn't know for what kind of sport it is really used?


So how to continue? Allow to use the tag leisure=sports_hall also for 
tennis halls, swimming halls, riding halls ... and add corresponding 
examples there, or restrict it to typical sports halls and make separate 
proposals for leisure=swimming_hall, leisure=tennis_hall, 
leisure=riding_hall, ...?



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:42 PM, Hufkratzer  wrote:
> 8.2.2018 09:20, Selfish Seahorse wrote:

 We can suggest / allow both, but I if the building=* tag is mandatory for
> sports halls I still can't see the reason why the tag leisure=spots_hall
> should be mandatory too. If we have something tagged with

Because building says something about the type of building, not about
the activities held in the building.
A building=sports_hall can now be a amenity=events_venue,
place_of_worship, community_centre.
A building=sports_hall does not have to be used for sports. If it is
used for sports, there has to be a leisure=sports_hall tag.


m.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-08 16:32 GMT+01:00 Selfish Seahorse :

> Both tags are needed because some sports hall buildings are used for
> other purposes (or not at all) and some sport halls are integrated in
> another building (e.g. a school).




the integrated ones can be tagged as building:part=sports_hall

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-08 13:42 GMT+01:00 Hufkratzer :

> We can suggest / allow both, but I if the building=* tag is mandatory for
> sports halls I still can't see the reason why the tag leisure=spots_hall
> should be mandatory too. If we have something tagged with
> building=sports_hall + sport=multi then we already know that it is a sports
> hall that is used for multiple sports.



well, if you want to nitpick, sport is "used to identify one or more sports
which can be played within or on some physical feature."
I.e. it is not a tag about what it is used for, but about what it can be
used for. Subtle difference.

For a disused sports hall, I would probably add a "disused:leisure" tag,
"disused:building" doesn't make sense, especially if it is a used building
(used for something else, e.g. catastrophy victim shelter).



> In this case the tag leisure=sports_hall only adds  the information that
> the hall is mainly used for leisure purposes, and in the case of a school
> hall this is not even accurate since school isn't leisure.



would you ask for detailed statistics about the usage (associations vs.
school) in order to be able to choose a tag? I would not read "leisure"
like this. All sport facilities are tagged with the leisure tag (AFAIK).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Selfish Seahorse]

Both tags are needed because some sports hall buildings are used for
other purposes (or not at all) and some sport halls are integrated in
another building (e.g. a school).

leisure isn't perfect, indeed ...

On 8 February 2018 at 13:42, Hufkratzer  wrote:
> 8.2.2018 09:20, Selfish Seahorse wrote:
>>>
>>> IMHO we should suggest both, building=sports_hall for any sports hall
>>> building and leisure=sports_hall if it is also used as a sports hall.
>>
>> This seems to be a good idea to me.
>>
> We can suggest / allow both, but I if the building=* tag is mandatory for
> sports halls I still can't see the reason why the tag leisure=spots_hall
> should be mandatory too. If we have something tagged with
> building=sports_hall + sport=multi then we already know that it is a sports
> hall that is used for multiple sports. In this case the tag
> leisure=sports_hall only adds  the information that the hall is mainly used
> for leisure purposes, and in the case of a school hall this is not even
> accurate since school isn't leisure. (The same applies, of course, also to
> leisure=pitch, but for outdoor pitches we need leisure=pitch as the physical
> tag, building=pitch is not available.)
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Hufkratzer]

8.2.2018 09:20, Selfish Seahorse wrote:

IMHO we should suggest both, building=sports_hall for any sports hall building 
and leisure=sports_hall if it is also used as a sports hall.

This seems to be a good idea to me.

We can suggest / allow both, but I if the building=* tag is mandatory 
for sports halls I still can't see the reason why the tag 
leisure=spots_hall should be mandatory too. If we have something tagged 
with building=sports_hall + sport=multi then we already know that it is 
a sports hall that is used for multiple sports. In this case the tag 
leisure=sports_hall only adds  the information that the hall is mainly 
used for leisure purposes, and in the case of a school hall this is not 
even accurate since school isn't leisure. (The same applies, of course, 
also to leisure=pitch, but for outdoor pitches we need leisure=pitch as 
the physical tag, building=pitch is not available.)


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Selfish Seahorse]

> IMHO we should suggest both, building=sports_hall for any sports hall 
> building and leisure=sports_hall if it is also used as a sports hall.

This seems to be a good idea to me.

> I agree with restricting the usage of leisure=sports_centre to sports centres.

+1

This is what I wrote back in September when suggesting
leisure=swimming_facility (as an alternative to leisure=sports_centre
+ sport=swimming that could also be used for smaller swimming
facilities not suitable for sports swimming). Unfortunately there was
only little support for it.


On 7 February 2018 at 00:15, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
>
> 2018-02-07 0:08 GMT+01:00 Hufkratzer :
>>
>> Neither do I understand why building=yes is suggested in the wiki instead
>> of building=*, allowing more specifix building types. But I think this is a
>> minor problem
>>
>> More complicated / important to me seem the other questions about (1.) the
>> mapping of indoor pitches and (2.) about the recent changes that recommend
>> leisure=sports_centre for normal sports halls and also for other buildings
>> (e.g. riding halls) that no one would call sports centres.
>> leisure=sports_hall is only used 22 times so far, therefore I don't think we
>> can recommend to use that instead of leisure=sports_centre. But can'r we
>> just leave away leisure=* where it does not fit and just use building=* +
>> sport=* ?
>
>
>
> IMHO we should suggest both, building=sports_hall for any sports hall
> building and leisure=sports_hall if it is also used as a sports hall.
> I'm unsure about indoor pitches, but would tend to require an indoor
> specific key.
>
>
>
>>
>> Can we write in the wiki that building=* is sufficient as a physical tag
>> for sport=* and that leisure=sports_centre should only be used if the
>> building is really a sports centre in the real world? More or less like
>> that. This would make more sense to me than the current examples which will
>> lead people to tag buildings as sports centres even if they are just normal
>> sports halls, riding halls, etc. What for? Why should we recommend that?
>
>
>
> I agree with restricting the usage of leisure=sports_centre to sports
> centres. I would also acclaim a restriction of leisure=pitch to pitches.
> There seem to be recommendations to tag table tennis tables as pitches, and
> someone proposed this even for tables where you can play chess. IMHO it
> would be clearer to write explicitly in the wiki: "use leisure=pitch for
> sports fields" or something along these lines.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 07.02.2018 23:20, Hufkratzer wrote:

7.2.2018 19:04,  Tom Pfeifer wrote:
Back to the original questions, I have a severe problem with leisure=pitch for the sports hall, it 
might also have pitches inside, indoor=yes. For that, leisure=sports_centre is only slightly 
better, in particular if the hall is part of a campus that is the real sports centre.


Thus I am inclined to follow Martin's proposal of leisure=sports_hall.


The German wiki page for amenity=school explains (different from the English page), that sports 
halls with only one pitch shall be tagged with leisure=pitch and sports halls with more than one 
pitch with leisure=sports_centre. Before Oct. 2017 it was also described like that on the wiki page 
for pitch. But probably leisure=sports_hall is better. Here are some of the current database entries 
with leisure=sports_hall:


222 says taginfo. There is also a proposal from 2013
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sports_hall
I am inclined to document that as in use.


Is the building=* tag optional if leisure=sports_hall is present? It looks like 
that.


No, I would consider that bad tagging. Somebody rendering the 3D shape of a town is not interested 
in the leisure tag.


Building describes the building typology, leisure the usage. So, if a church is converted for a 
sports_hall, it is still building=church.


tom

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Hufkratzer]

7.2.2018 19:04,  Tom Pfeifer wrote:
Back to the original questions, I have a severe problem with 
leisure=pitch for the sports hall, it might also have pitches inside, 
indoor=yes. For that, leisure=sports_centre is only slightly better, 
in particular if the hall is part of a campus that is the real sports 
centre.


Thus I am inclined to follow Martin's proposal of leisure=sports_hall.

tom
The German wiki page for amenity=school explains (different from the 
English page), that sports halls with only one pitch shall be tagged 
with leisure=pitch and sports halls with more than one pitch with 
leisure=sports_centre. Before Oct. 2017 it was also described like that 
on the wiki page for pitch. But probably leisure=sports_hall is better. 
Here are some of the current database entries with leisure=sports_hall:


SPORTS HALLS OF SCHOOLS

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/108695728
leisure=sports_hall
sport=multi
building=school

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/135095537
leisure=sports_hall
sport=multi
(without building=* tag)

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/194416113
leisure=sports_hall
building=school

SPORTS HALLS OF SPORTS CENTRES

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/83253276
leisure=sports_hall
building=sports_hall

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/55828457 (hall #1)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/131426499 (hall #2)
leisure=sports_hall
building=sports_hall

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/392806171
leisure=sports_hall
building=yes

TENNIS hall of TENNIS centre:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/86040709
leisure=sports_hall
sport=tennis
building=yes
surface=carpet

Is the building=* tag optional if leisure=sports_hall is present? It 
looks like that.


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 07.02.2018 17:27, Paul Allen wrote:

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Tom Pfeifer mailto:t.pfei...@computer.org>> wrote:
OSM usually starts on a dictionary definition, but has the habit to grow 
larger than this. What
we need in the end is an agreed denominator for a class of objects, even if 
that deviates a bit
from colloquial English.

Absolutely.  But the idea of a table-tennis pitch, chess pitch, ice-skating pitch and swimming pitch 
makes me

cringe.  That's not bashing a square peg into a round hole, that's shoving a 
camel through the eye of a
needle.  It can be done, with a hydraulic press, but the camel isn't much use afterwards (unless you 
like

camel soup).


I understand you, but some of the cringing comes from language-based bias. Where you have two words 
for pitch and court, I might have -platz (de) for both in my language and be more inclined to throw 
them into the same pot.


"Field of play" might encompass football, rugby, soccer, baseball, and even tennis.  Misleading, but 
good

enough, for cricket (nobody understands the rules anyway, so a terminological 
error is OK).  Still wrong
for ice-skating and swimming.


Yeah, we have leisure=ice_rink and =swimming_pool and don't want to change them.

We might need a new tag for the table-oriented sports (are the more than 
table_tennis and chess?).

We are struggling with sport that has a diffuse location, without fixed boundaries, often using a 
natural feature, such as swimming in a lake or climbing a rockface, or kite surfing.


Back to the original questions, I have a severe problem with leisure=pitch for the sports hall, it 
might also have pitches inside, indoor=yes. For that, leisure=sports_centre is only slightly better, 
in particular if the hall is part of a campus that is the real sports centre.


Thus I am inclined to follow Martin's proposal of leisure=sports_hall.

tom

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

> OSM usually starts on a dictionary definition, but has the habit to grow
> larger than this. What we need in the end is an agreed denominator for a
> class of objects, even if that deviates a bit from colloquial English.
>

Absolutely.  But the idea of a table-tennis pitch, chess pitch, ice-skating
pitch and swimming pitch makes me
cringe.  That's not bashing a square peg into a round hole, that's shoving
a camel through the eye of a
needle.  It can be done, with a hydraulic press, but the camel isn't much
use afterwards (unless you like
camel soup).

"Field of play" might encompass football, rugby, soccer, baseball, and even
tennis.  Misleading, but good
enough, for cricket (nobody understands the rules anyway, so a
terminological error is OK).  Still wrong
for ice-skating and swimming.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 07.02.2018 00:15, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I'm unsure about indoor pitches, but would tend to require an indoor specific 
key.


Pitch remains pitch, the specific key is indoor=yes.

On 07.02.2018 00:15, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> There seem to be recommendations to tag table tennis tables as pitches, and 
someone proposed this
> even for tables where you can play chess.

You seem to refer to discussion #3039 in carto. The argument there was meant, if leisure=pitch is 
used for table_tennis, it could as well be used for chess tables. If we find a better tag for 
table-oriented sports, it should apply to both.


On 07.02.2018 01:33, Warin wrote:
> Chess? Not certain if that can be classified as a 'sport' ... certainly a 
game of skill.

wikipedia: "FIDE is a member of the International Olympic Committee, which can be considered as a 
recognition of chess as a sport". You should also be careful in arguing with a chess player about 
that, some are also trained in Sudoku!


On 07.02.2018 01:51, Paul Allen wrote:
> Whatever you classify chess as, it's played on a board, not a pitch or a field.  Maybe if you 
play with human pieces (a
> novelty game) you might play it on marked grass but it would still be referred to as a board, not 
a pitch.


Sometimes with human pieces as a show, but chess is regularly played in parks all over the world on 
ground pitches:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Innsbruck_17.jpg

On 07.02.2018 02:33, Warin wrote:
> Dictionary time - pitch...
> Oxford - An area of ground marked out or used for play in an outdoor team 
game.

OSM usually starts on a dictionary definition, but has the habit to grow larger than this. What we 
need in the end is an agreed denominator for a class of objects, even if that deviates a bit from 
colloquial English.


tom

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 1:33 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 07-Feb-18 11:51 AM, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:33 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think of table tennis as a sport, so see no reason why the playing area
>> for table tennis should not be tagged as a pitch in OSM.
>>
>
> In British English, "pitch" has a specific meaning with respect to sport.
> The equivalent in US and Canadian English
> is "playing field" or "sports field."  It is grass or artificial grass for
> running around, and being tackled to the ground.
> Grass or artificial grass to prevent injuries when being tackled to the
> ground.  Grass or artificial grass to prevent the
> surface being churned to mud on rainy days.
>
> It makes no sense whatsoever, in British English, to talk of a table
> tennis pitch any more than it would be to talk of a
> table-tennis field.  There's a reason it's called "table tennis" not
> "pitch tennis" or "field tennis."  Pitches are large
> enough for 22 men to run around on (smaller versions for kiddies) kicking
> or throwing or hitting a ball.
>
>
> Dictionary time - pitch...
> Oxford - An area of ground marked out or used for play in an outdoor team
> game.
>

Sounds about right to me.

>
> No mention of surface or size. As there is 5 a side soccer ..
>

Which is why I mentioned smaller versions for kiddies.  And 5-a-side is
often on indoor pitches and often played
by kiddies.


> The present game of tennis is played on a much smaller are then
> traditional 11 a side soccer.
> And it can be played on clay.
>

Tennis is played on a court with a hard surface, not a pitch.  Except for
lawn tennis, which is played on grass, but
is still a court.


> Shuttle cock?
> Volley ball?
>

Offhand, I don't know.  And don't care.  I assiduously avoid sport of all
kinds. :)  I vaguely remember volley ball being
associated with a court.

Archery ... according to the wiki uses pitch ... as does shooting ...


I'll take your word for it.

>
> If table tennis is excluded then so should these. And possibly more. How
> pedantic should OSM be?
> Just pointing out the inconsistencies.


These are inconsistencies in the English language, and OSM uses British
English.  Having a table-tennis pitch
is as bizarre as having a rugby table or a cricket court.

"Pitch" isn't a good generic term for "playing area."  Nor is "table" or
"court."  If you want a one-size-fits-all
term, "pitch" isn't it.

sport
>
  Once synchronized swimming became a "sport" the word lost all meaning.

Chess has little physical exertion. So would not meet the strict definition
> of a 'sport'.


I would say chess is not a sport.  But the term "sport" has been greatly
degraded by people who pursue various
activities wanting to be able to compete in the Olympics.  But I hate all
sport and don't really care because a pitch
or court or rink (mustn't forget ice skaters) is a semi-permanent physical
feature whereas the "sport" played on it
is ephemeral.

I tried yoga once.  It tasted like sour milk to me.
>>
> More Dictionary time - yoga ..

While you have the dictionary open, look up the term "humour."

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Wiklund Johan]

I would like to raise a few flags for sports_centres, pitches, and stadiums (in 
rare cases also arena). I’ve been cleaning up a lot of these in the past months 
so I’ll just namedrop some problems I’ve seen a lot of (in Norway).
Due to language barriers, lack of tagging knowledge and the varying design of 
these sports areas people will often tag them wrong. You also have to evaluate 
the specific meaning versus the layout and usage of a location and if there is 
no direct match you just have to pick the closest thing.

Stuff I found:

· Sports halls in schools with all kinds of tagging, problems 
aggravated if it also for example contains swimming facilities.

· I’ve seen a node by a lake tagged sports_centre + swimming because 
you can swim in the lake there.

· Individual events in a longer course mapped as sports_centre 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2329751424). There are about 20 of them 
heading north along trails.

· People often tag fitness_centres as sports_centre. Also the 
Yoga-centres as stated already. I guess the “dojo”-tagging also belongs here.

· Sometimes a single pitch is tagged as stadium – usually because they 
are sometimes named “Something Stadion” even though it’s just a simple soccer 
pitch.

· When there is a cluster of for example 3 pitches, some people tag the 
area as sports_centre - some as stadium.

· Weird combinations such as a building/company with gokart and bowling 
can be difficult to know how to tag.

· Team building locations that are kind of sporty, but not really a 
sport. How else to tag them?

· Alpine skiing facilities are often mapped as area with sports_centre 
and sometimes as single node. I see there is a landuse=winter_sports but it 
doesn’t even have 1000 usages.

· We also have an old Olympic village up in Lillehammer which offers 
some challenges: 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/275004406#map=17/61.22061/10.41947)

I have no good suggestions for how to make the tagging schemes better. Just 
saying that this goes way beyond school sports halls and pitches. Some features 
simply fall between the tag-cracks or confuse people. It would be hard fitting 
all these sports into sports_centre: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports (not to mention things like chess 
and eSports).

 ;)

/Johan


From: Warin [mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com]
Sent: onsdag 7. februar 2018 02.34
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

On 07-Feb-18 11:51 AM, Paul Allen wrote:
On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:33 AM, Warin 
<61sundow...@gmail.com<mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I think of table tennis as a sport, so see no reason why the playing area for 
table tennis should not be tagged as a pitch in OSM.

In British English, "pitch" has a specific meaning with respect to sport.  The 
equivalent in US and Canadian English
is "playing field" or "sports field."  It is grass or artificial grass for 
running around, and being tackled to the ground.
Grass or artificial grass to prevent injuries when being tackled to the ground. 
 Grass or artificial grass to prevent the
surface being churned to mud on rainy days.

It makes no sense whatsoever, in British English, to talk of a table tennis 
pitch any more than it would be to talk of a
table-tennis field.  There's a reason it's called "table tennis" not "pitch 
tennis" or "field tennis."  Pitches are large
enough for 22 men to run around on (smaller versions for kiddies) kicking or 
throwing or hitting a ball.

Dictionary time - pitch...
Oxford - An area of ground marked out or used for play in an outdoor team game.

No mention of surface or size. As there is 5 a side soccer ..
The present game of tennis is played on a much smaller are then traditional 11 
a side soccer.
And it can be played on clay.
Shuttle cock?
Volley ball?

Archery ... according to the wiki uses pitch ... as does shooting ...
If table tennis is excluded then so should these. And possibly more.
How pedantic should OSM be? Just pointing out the inconsistencies.

sport

Oxford - An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an 
individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.




Chess? Not certain if that can be classified as a 'sport' ... certainly a game 
of skill. Should there be another OSM key for games of skill?

Whatever you classify chess as, it's played on a board, not a pitch or a field. 
 Maybe if you play with human pieces (a
novelty game) you might play it on marked grass but it would still be referred 
to as a board, not a pitch.

Chess has little physical exertion. So would not meet the strict definition of 
a 'sport'.


Looking through th eOSM list of sports ... Yoga? As a sport

I tried yoga once.  It tasted like sour milk to me.

More Dictionary time - yoga ..
Oxford - A Hin

Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Warin]

On 07-Feb-18 11:51 AM, Paul Allen wrote:
On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:33 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



I think of table tennis as a sport, so see no reason why the
playing area for table tennis should not be tagged as a pitch in OSM.


In British English, "pitch" has a specific meaning with respect to 
sport.  The equivalent in US and Canadian English
is "playing field" or "sports field."  It is grass or artificial grass 
for running around, and being tackled to the ground.
Grass or artificial grass to prevent injuries when being tackled to 
the ground.  Grass or artificial grass to prevent the

surface being churned to mud on rainy days.

It makes no sense whatsoever, in British English, to talk of a table 
tennis pitch any more than it would be to talk of a
table-tennis field. There's a reason it's called "table tennis" not 
"pitch tennis" or "field tennis."  Pitches are large
enough for 22 men to run around on (smaller versions for kiddies) 
kicking or throwing or hitting a ball.


Dictionary time - pitch...
Oxford - An area of ground marked out or used for play in an outdoor 
team game.


No mention of surface or size. As there is 5 a side soccer ..
The present game of tennis is played on a much smaller are then 
traditional 11 a side soccer.

And it can be played on clay.
Shuttle cock?
Volley ball?

Archery ... according to the wiki uses pitch ... as does shooting ...
If table tennis is excluded then so should these. And possibly more.
How pedantic should OSM be? Just pointing out the inconsistencies.

sport

Oxford - An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an 
individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.





Chess? Not certain if that can be classified as a 'sport' ...
certainly a game of skill. Should there be another OSM key for
games of skill?


Whatever you classify chess as, it's played on a board, not a pitch or 
a field.  Maybe if you play with human pieces (a
novelty game) you might play it on marked grass but it would still be 
referred to as a board, not a pitch.


Chess has little physical exertion. So would not meet the strict 
definition of a 'sport'.


Looking through th eOSM list of sports ... Yoga? As a sport


I tried yoga once.  It tasted like sour milk to me.


More Dictionary time - yoga ..
Oxford - A Hindu spiritual and ascetic discipline, a part of which, 
including breath control, simple meditation, and the adoption of 
specific bodily postures, is widely practised for health and relaxation.


I don't see any completion here. Yet OSM has it as a 'sport'.

Summary
Best fit.. round peg .. square hole.
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:33 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I think of table tennis as a sport, so see no reason why the playing area
> for table tennis should not be tagged as a pitch in OSM.
>

In British English, "pitch" has a specific meaning with respect to sport.
The equivalent in US and Canadian English
is "playing field" or "sports field."  It is grass or artificial grass for
running around, and being tackled to the ground.
Grass or artificial grass to prevent injuries when being tackled to the
ground.  Grass or artificial grass to prevent the
surface being churned to mud on rainy days.

It makes no sense whatsoever, in British English, to talk of a table tennis
pitch any more than it would be to talk of a
table-tennis field.  There's a reason it's called "table tennis" not "pitch
tennis" or "field tennis."  Pitches are large
enough for 22 men to run around on (smaller versions for kiddies) kicking
or throwing or hitting a ball.

Chess? Not certain if that can be classified as a 'sport' ... certainly a
> game of skill. Should there be another OSM key for games of skill?
>

Whatever you classify chess as, it's played on a board, not a pitch or a
field.  Maybe if you play with human pieces (a
novelty game) you might play it on marked grass but it would still be
referred to as a board, not a pitch.

Looking through th eOSM list of sports ... Yoga? As a sport


I tried yoga once.  It tasted like sour milk to me.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Warin]

On 07-Feb-18 10:15 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2018-02-07 0:08 GMT+01:00 Hufkratzer >:


Neither do I understand why building=yes is suggested in the wiki
instead of building=*, allowing more specifix building types. But
I think this is a minor problem

More complicated / important to me seem the other questions about
(1.) the mapping of indoor pitches and (2.) about the recent
changes that recommend leisure=sports_centre for normal sports
halls and also for other buildings (e.g. riding halls) that no one
would call sports centres. leisure=sports_hall is only used 22
times so far, therefore I don't think we can recommend to use that
instead of leisure=sports_centre. But can'r we just leave away
leisure=* where it does not fit and just use building=* + sport=* ?



IMHO we should suggest both, building=sports_hall for any sports hall 
building and leisure=sports_hall if it is also used as a sports hall.
I'm unsure about indoor pitches, but would tend to require an indoor 
specific key.



Can we write in the wiki that building=* is sufficient as a
physical tag for sport=* and that leisure=sports_centre should
only be used if the building is really a sports centre in the real
world? More or less like that. This would make more sense to me
than the current examples which will lead people to tag buildings
as sports centres even if they are just normal sports halls,
riding halls, etc. What for? Why should we recommend that?



I agree with restricting the usage of leisure=sports_centre to sports 
centres. I would also acclaim a restriction of leisure=pitch to 
pitches. There seem to be recommendations to tag table tennis tables 
as pitches, and someone proposed this even for tables where you can 
play chess. IMHO it would be clearer to write explicitly in the wiki: 
"use leisure=pitch for sports fields" or something along these lines.


I think of table tennis as a sport, so see no reason why the playing 
area for table tennis should not be tagged as a pitch in OSM.


Chess? Not certain if that can be classified as a 'sport' ... certainly 
a game of skill. Should there be another OSM key for games of skill?
Looking through th eOSM list of sports ... Yoga? As a sport .. think 
that is much less of a 'sport' then chess. So I think chess should 
remain as a sport.
If there is a need to have another key then there needs to be one for 
things like yoga - 'key:exercise'?
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-07 0:08 GMT+01:00 Hufkratzer :

> Neither do I understand why building=yes is suggested in the wiki instead
> of building=*, allowing more specifix building types. But I think this is a
> minor problem
>
> More complicated / important to me seem the other questions about (1.) the
> mapping of indoor pitches and (2.) about the recent changes that recommend
> leisure=sports_centre for normal sports halls and also for other buildings
> (e.g. riding halls) that no one would call sports centres.
> leisure=sports_hall is only used 22 times so far, therefore I don't think
> we can recommend to use that instead of leisure=sports_centre. But can'r we
> just leave away leisure=* where it does not fit and just use building=* +
> sport=* ?



IMHO we should suggest both, building=sports_hall for any sports hall
building and leisure=sports_hall if it is also used as a sports hall.
I'm unsure about indoor pitches, but would tend to require an indoor
specific key.




> Can we write in the wiki that building=* is sufficient as a physical tag
> for sport=* and that leisure=sports_centre should only be used if the
> building is really a sports centre in the real world? More or less like
> that. This would make more sense to me than the current examples which will
> lead people to tag buildings as sports centres even if they are just normal
> sports halls, riding halls, etc. What for? Why should we recommend that?



I agree with restricting the usage of leisure=sports_centre to sports
centres. I would also acclaim a restriction of leisure=pitch to pitches.
There seem to be recommendations to tag table tennis tables as pitches, and
someone proposed this even for tables where you can play chess. IMHO it
would be clearer to write explicitly in the wiki: "use leisure=pitch for
sports fields" or something along these lines.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Hufkratzer]

Neither do I understand why building=yes is suggested in the wiki 
instead of building=*, allowing more specifix building types. But I 
think this is a minor problem


More complicated / important to me seem the other questions about (1.) 
the mapping of indoor pitches and (2.) about the recent changes that 
recommend leisure=sports_centre for normal sports halls and also for 
other buildings (e.g. riding halls) that no one would call sports 
centres. leisure=sports_hall is only used 22 times so far, therefore I 
don't think we can recommend to use that instead of 
leisure=sports_centre. But can'r we just leave away leisure=* where it 
does not fit and just use building=* + sport=* ? Can we write in the 
wiki that building=* is sufficient as a physical tag for sport=* and 
that leisure=sports_centre should only be used if the building is really 
a sports centre in the real world? More or less like that. This would 
make more sense to me than the current examples which will lead people 
to tag buildings as sports centres even if they are just normal sports 
halls, riding halls, etc. What for? Why should we recommend that?


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag sports halls?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I don’t understand why building=yes is suggested in the wiki for a specific 
building type like a sports hall. I understand that these might be integrated 
into a bigger complex of buildings (building:part=sports_hall) or otherwise it 
could be building=sports_hall and if it’s in use leisure=sports_hall (or maybe 
gym?)


cheers,
Martin 
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