Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
I'm surprised nobody so far mentioned Mapbox's Maki icon set: https://www.mapbox.com/maki/ Another thing maps based on OSM lack is clickability (like Google Maps or Bing Maps). It's less CPU intensive than placing markers afterwards. Maybe there's some clever way to embed clickable spots information (just coordinates) into the tiles themselves. Michał On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:08 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Agreed. The general-purpose renderings, at least those intended for small-screen use, should use a limited number of icons, and those should each apply to a range of related object types. Large-screen and printed maps can use a wider range of icon types, since there is room for a map legend. Special-purpose renderings can use more specific icons, but may need to either include a legend or provide a link to a legend. On September 16, 2014 1:32:29 AM CDT, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 09/15/2014 07:43 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Maybe this is running up on the limit of only rendering shop values with 100 instances? I think that many people think too much information science (how can I compress the most information into the smallest room) and too little cartography (how can I make a map with a good user interface). A map icon is what, 32x32 pixels or so? A couple of millimeters on the screen. As long as you stick to 20 POI icons, you will be able to select icons that are instantly recognizable. Something with a film strip... must be a cinema. Once you introduce 100 icons, your map becomes unreadable without a legend. Yes you *can* devise a film-strip-and-pipe icon denoting a cinema that uniquely shows crime dramas but you're leaving the realm of the easy-to-use map (much like having 5 different types of dash-dot patterns for various types of tracks). It appears to me that unless the user actively requests to drill down deeper on something (and we have the technology to do that), we should stick with a very small number of icons. Maybe we can find a way to actually detect that shop=bicycle;skateboard is some kind of sports-related shop and display a generic sports-related-shop icon, the same that we would use for shop=bicycle or shop=skateboard alone. Bye Frederik -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
Agreed. The general-purpose renderings, at least those intended for small-screen use, should use a limited number of icons, and those should each apply to a range of related object types. Large-screen and printed maps can use a wider range of icon types, since there is room for a map legend. Special-purpose renderings can use more specific icons, but may need to either include a legend or provide a link to a legend. On September 16, 2014 1:32:29 AM CDT, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 09/15/2014 07:43 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Maybe this is running up on the limit of only rendering shop values with 100 instances? I think that many people think too much information science (how can I compress the most information into the smallest room) and too little cartography (how can I make a map with a good user interface). A map icon is what, 32x32 pixels or so? A couple of millimeters on the screen. As long as you stick to 20 POI icons, you will be able to select icons that are instantly recognizable. Something with a film strip... must be a cinema. Once you introduce 100 icons, your map becomes unreadable without a legend. Yes you *can* devise a film-strip-and-pipe icon denoting a cinema that uniquely shows crime dramas but you're leaving the realm of the easy-to-use map (much like having 5 different types of dash-dot patterns for various types of tracks). It appears to me that unless the user actively requests to drill down deeper on something (and we have the technology to do that), we should stick with a very small number of icons. Maybe we can find a way to actually detect that shop=bicycle;skateboard is some kind of sports-related shop and display a generic sports-related-shop icon, the same that we would use for shop=bicycle or shop=skateboard alone. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
Hi, On 09/15/2014 07:43 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Maybe this is running up on the limit of only rendering shop values with 100 instances? I think that many people think too much information science (how can I compress the most information into the smallest room) and too little cartography (how can I make a map with a good user interface). A map icon is what, 32x32 pixels or so? A couple of millimeters on the screen. As long as you stick to 20 POI icons, you will be able to select icons that are instantly recognizable. Something with a film strip... must be a cinema. Once you introduce 100 icons, your map becomes unreadable without a legend. Yes you *can* devise a film-strip-and-pipe icon denoting a cinema that uniquely shows crime dramas but you're leaving the realm of the easy-to-use map (much like having 5 different types of dash-dot patterns for various types of tracks). It appears to me that unless the user actively requests to drill down deeper on something (and we have the technology to do that), we should stick with a very small number of icons. Maybe we can find a way to actually detect that shop=bicycle;skateboard is some kind of sports-related shop and display a generic sports-related-shop icon, the same that we would use for shop=bicycle or shop=skateboard alone. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
On 16 September 2014 07:32, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I think that many people think too much information science (how can I compress the most information into the smallest room) and too little cartography (how can I make a map with a good user interface). You mean people tend not to tag for the renderer? Good. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
Hi, On 09/16/2014 11:17 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: I think that many people think too much information science (how can I compress the most information into the smallest room) and too little cartography (how can I make a map with a good user interface). You mean people tend not to tag for the renderer? Obviously, shop=bicycle;surfing is the exact opposite of tagging for the renderer... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:32 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: A map icon is what, 32x32 pixels or so? A couple of millimeters on the screen. As long as you stick to 20 POI icons, you will be able to select icons that are instantly recognizable. Something with a film strip... must be a cinema. Once you introduce 100 icons, your map becomes unreadable without a legend. I agree! I think there should be a limited set of shop icons. And an infinite set of descriptions of what those shops sell. And a generic shop icon (or dot) for any shop, even if it's the only one of it's kind (e.g. dog collars). Then you get to tag both for the rendering AND for the database. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
Maybe this is running up on the limit of only rendering shop values with 100 instances? That would exclude things like: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3073844460 Or the dog collar shop http://www.pacocollars.com/ (sells only dog collars). --- As an alternative to the blacklist approach (excluding shop=disused), perhaps there could be a MapRoulette challenge. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
And keep in mind the current cartocss rendering leads to another distortion: tagging for the rendering. Only a few shop tags are rendered in mapnik. Another huge constraint is the lack of support for ; in the default rendering. For example: shop=bicycle renders shop=bicycle;skateboard does not Fixing these two issues would go a long way to making the current tagging work better. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
This is no longer true. 2014-09-13 9:03 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: And keep in mind the current cartocss rendering leads to another distortion: tagging for the rendering. Only a few shop tags are rendered in mapnik. Another huge constraint is the lack of support for ; in the default rendering. For example: shop=bicycle renders shop=bicycle;skateboard does not Fixing these two issues would go a long way to making the current tagging work better. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean the generic point shop icon? Michał 13 wrz 2014 11:29 Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com napisał(a): This is no longer true. 2014-09-13 9:03 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: And keep in mind the current cartocss rendering leads to another distortion: tagging for the rendering. Only a few shop tags are rendered in mapnik. Another huge constraint is the lack of support for ; in the default rendering. For example: shop=bicycle renders shop=bicycle;skateboard does not Fixing these two issues would go a long way to making the current tagging work better. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
Now I am less sure. IIRC the idea settled on rendering everything except short blacklist but according to https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/604 it was done by selecting many popular values what would exclude shop=bicycle;skateboard (what IMHO is a poor tagging, it should be [shop=sports; sports=bicycle;skateboard]). 2014-09-13 16:32 GMT+02:00 Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com: Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean the generic point shop icon? Michał 13 wrz 2014 11:29 Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com napisał(a): This is no longer true. 2014-09-13 9:03 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: And keep in mind the current cartocss rendering leads to another distortion: tagging for the rendering. Only a few shop tags are rendered in mapnik. Another huge constraint is the lack of support for ; in the default rendering. For example: shop=bicycle renders shop=bicycle;skateboard does not Fixing these two issues would go a long way to making the current tagging work better. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
Yea, there needs to be a better framework for adding shops that are not in the system is a manner that is consistent, and possibly can work with -carto to have icons added by users without so much hassle. Here in japan, they have several different types of fast food, quick restaurants, and formal restaurants in categories everyone here recognizes - but get can't get put into a proper category or get a bad icon. Eg: an isakaiya is not really a pub. It's their own thing. And takoyaki is fast food, represented by a hamburger. - cuisine needs to have, probably, a thousand new tags added to cover this, and regional icons need to be paired with them. Making the maps more region friendly - to conform to the expectations and customs of the mapping language of the region is one thing I want to work on, and this is a part of it. Javbw Sent from my iPhone On Sep 13, 2014, at 12:45 AM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: On 09/03/2014 11:26 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Another thing that comes to my mind: maybe we could indeed create this catalogue of tens of thousands of business types - who if not us will be able to do such a work? This doesn't imply the mapper would have to scroll long lists of thousands of entries, it could be well structured from coarse to fine. I too wondered about this problem. The current shop/craft tagging seems *very* broken for everything non-standard. We can't expect people to invent new tags for every type of service or merchandise, such as tractor repair or chimneys. You can use any tags you want, but think of the software, how can it deliver relevant results then? Think what people *need*. When they go to Google Maps, they don't look for a supermarket or grocery, they look for some specialized stores/services. Another issue is that people passionately add OSM notes for businesses there's no approved tagging for. I too, thought independently, about these human-readable description tags like shop:merchandise:language and how idiots (of which we have an abundance already) or diary spammers (who laugh in admins' faces) will abuse it. But who knows, this may be a viable solution. Compare with Business Name at https://support.google.com/business/answer/3038177?hl=enref_topic=4540086 . So, I checked how Google does this. And here you have all the 2200+ POI categories you can choose from when you add your business/institution/whatever. http://pastebin.com/BHqXvkS4 It seems they flattened their hierarchy here, for instance every cuisine has its own restaurant tag.. I guess internally there's some tree of categories, so that searching non-specific terms returns meaningful results. Anyway, our shop/service tagging system is quite flawed in its current form and is suitable for consumption only at a basic level. This presents an issue that too few people think of OSM as an ecosystem. We have disjoint teams (or individuals) developing tagging/website/editors/map style/map applications. This isn't good for creating a map that would serve users' needs (couldn't help myself but write the proverbial displace Google Maps ;-) ) Greetings Michał ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
Hi, On 09/02/2014 11:39 PM, Rob Nickerson wrote: This is not a tagging for the render issue - we are missing a valuable tag to describe the type of business. I wonder - and have wondered the same for the existing universes of shop= and office= - where will this end? I mean, it is not impossible to have a fork lift hire company that only rents out fork lifts in numbers of 10 or more, that on the side also has an adventure business arm where on the weekends, families can practice fork lifting, and also offers consulting for large fork lift operations. And bakes pretzels. Do we aim to capture every possible business model with our tags? Do we aim to be the ultimate business directory where someone who needs two fork lifts for 14 days can find out where exactly he can get two (not only one) fork lifts for 14 days (not only monthly), and so on? I'm inclined to say: let's keep it as generic as possible - but then what is the right generic term for a fork lift hire company? Is it some kind of vehicle hire? If they rent out earth-moving equipment, are they some kind of vehicle hire or rather some kind of construction business? Mappers will always find it easier to tag the concrete thing they see rather than make the mental abstraction to find out what the generic version is. But we can't have a catalogue of tens of thousands of business types (none of which would cover the fork hire with optional pretzels anyway), Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
2014-09-03 11:07 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: I'm inclined to say: let's keep it as generic as possible - but then what is the right generic term for a fork lift hire company? Is it some kind of vehicle hire? If they rent out earth-moving equipment, are they some kind of vehicle hire or rather some kind of construction business? it is indeed a problem that you have to decide in OSM. Maybe this second company is both, construction business and vehicle hire? Maybe someone looking to rent earth-moving equipment might search in both categories when in need for a new provider? Mappers will always find it easier to tag the concrete thing they see rather than make the mental abstraction to find out what the generic version is. But we can't have a catalogue of tens of thousands of business types (none of which would cover the fork hire with optional pretzels anyway), so what is your suggestion? business=yes name=xy? I agree that we might not be able to capture all fine details about the offerings and services a company has put on the market, but we should IMHO have some reasonably detailed (not too generic) categories that allow for a search to create a basis on which you can then phone the individual company for more details. This is something you will probably have to do anyway, because the fork lift company might have temporarily run out of fork lifts in the size you need. Another thing that comes to my mind: maybe we could indeed create this catalogue of tens of thousands of business types - who if not us will be able to do such a work? This doesn't imply the mapper would have to scroll long lists of thousands of entries, it could be well structured from coarse to fine. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] The not-shops: industrial, industry, or business
Hi, On 09/03/2014 11:26 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: so what is your suggestion? business=yes name=xy? I would have written it if I had a good suggestion. Maybe business=yes name=xyz keywords=fork lift hire,pretzels,adventure however this seems almost a bit too inviting for our SEO friends ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
