Re: [Tagging] mapping default values?

[André Pirard]

On 2016-10-05 11:00, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> 2016-10-05 3:35 GMT+02:00 André Pirard  >:
>
> On 2016-09-27 11:43, Marc Gemis wrote:
>> Hallo,
>>
>> op 1/1/2017 daalt de snelheid op Vlaamse gewestwegen van 90 naar 70.
>> Normaal gezien zullen we die wegen (zonder expliciete borden) dan
>> moeten taggen met
>>
>> maxspeed=70
>> source:maxspeed=??:rural
>>
>> maar wat komt er op de plaats van de vraagtekens ? Volgens [1] staat
>> daar de landcode, maar het geldt enkel voor Vlaanderen.
>> Ik zou tegen dan de BENELUX presets willen aanpassen.
>>
>> -
>> English:
>>
>> On 1/1/2017 the maxspeeds on Flemish roads is lowered to 70. We should
>> map those roads (without signs) with
>>
>> maxspeed=70
>> source:maxpseed=??:rural
>>
>> Which "country" code should I use in the BENELUX plugin ? See [1] for
>> the syntax of maxspeed.
> I don't think that default values like maxspeed=*, 
> driving_side=*, or even oneway=no should be tagged on highways.
> Most roads (in Belgium and in the world) don't contain any, BTW,
> and it makes no sense using a few.
> A default values specification should be used instead.
> Those tags should be contained in the highest level administrative
> boundary relation or equivalent in which they apply.
> maxspeed=70 should apply to Flanders and maxspeed=90 to Wallonia.
>
>
> what you propose is not working, because speed limits are about roads,
> not administrative entities. You have to know the context (rural/urban
> inside settlement according to traffic law, etc.) in order to assign a
> maxspeed, and the only way we currently use to understand which
> context applies are the source:maxspeed values. It is very simple,
> doesn't require preprocessing, can be applied by everyone without
> looking for and downloading surrounding administrative polygons, and
> is also quite reliable. Why would we give this up?
Please don't remove important quotations.

What you are saying is that every road in the world should have a
maxspeed=*. driving_side=*, etc.
It's far from being the case.  Hurry up to do so.  Presently, GPSes
cannot deal with defaults.
What I am saying is that there should be in the Walloon/Flemish
administrative boundaries relations or so a tag saying
if zone is rural then maxspeed=90/70.
That is what "def:highway
=primary
|highway
=secondary
;maxspeed
 = rural" does in
Relations/Proposed/Defaults
.
Instead of destroying propositions again please propose improvements.
I think that this proposition is sound but I don' agree with the too
complicated details of it.
Yes, default speed limit rules are about administrative entities for
someone who understands what Flemish and Walloon mean.
No, GPS dealing with administrative polygons is not complicated as they
keep saying on and on.
It would even be simple with subareas but that's another subject.
No tagging default maxspeed everywhere is not reliable because it
depends on many tags being correct instead of a few.
As to using signals, that's the worst idea.  They are valid up to the
next crossing, but not a private road, and they must be repeated.
Indicating which direction they apply to is tricky and a source of
error. The few  signals I looked at were municipality limits. They were
redundant with boundaries (a disparaged feature) and they did not mind
indicating on which side of the signal was the indicated municipality.
Imagine that with speed limits and you get the picture.

Cheers

André.



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Re: [Tagging] mapping default values? (was: Maximum snelheid in Vlaanderen, maxspeed in Flanders)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

btw., looks not like much work, there are only 117 objects with the
relevant tag, and they are distributed quite distantly from the region
border:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/j2Z

You'll maybe have a lot of resurveying to do where you didn't add the
source:maxspeed tag, i.e. where you will have to check if there are signs
allowing more than 70

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] mapping default values? (was: Maximum snelheid in Vlaanderen, maxspeed in Flanders)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-10-05 11:20 GMT+02:00 Jo :

> We now have 1 country with 2 differing default values, depending on the
> region you happen to be in. A bit annoying. We'll probably need to tag all
> of them explicitely with maxspeed values. OTOH, we were already doing that
> anyway.


yes, you basically need a more refined mode than "country code", i.e.
regional code. E.g. source:maxspeed=BE-WAL:...   and BE-VLG:rural etc.
It does not really matter, the main reason for these codes is the
possibility to perform automatic edits in case the default changes. I.e. in
your situation you should be able to download all roads with
source:maxspeed=BE:rural and retag them according to the region they are in
with source:maxspeed=BE-VLG (and change maxspeed to 70) and
source:maxspeed=BE-WAL and no maxspeed modification.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] mapping default values? (was: Maximum snelheid in Vlaanderen, maxspeed in Flanders)

[Jo]

We now have 1 country with 2 differing default values, depending on the
region you happen to be in. A bit annoying. We'll probably need to tag all
of them explicitely with maxspeed values. OTOH, we were already doing that
anyway.

Polyglot

2016-10-05 11:00 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
> 2016-10-05 3:35 GMT+02:00 André Pirard :
>
>> I don't think that default values like maxspeed=*,  driving_side=*, or
>> even oneway=no should be tagged on highways.
>> Most roads (in Belgium and in the world) don't contain any, BTW, and it
>> makes no sense using a few.
>> A default values specification should be used instead.
>> Those tags should be contained in the highest level administrative
>> boundary relation or equivalent in which they apply.
>> maxspeed=70 should apply to Flanders and maxspeed=90 to Wallonia.
>>
>
>
> what you propose is not working, because speed limits are about roads, not
> administrative entities. You have to know the context (rural/urban inside
> settlement according to traffic law, etc.) in order to assign a maxspeed,
> and the only way we currently use to understand which context applies are
> the source:maxspeed values. It is very simple, doesn't require
> preprocessing, can be applied by everyone without looking for and
> downloading surrounding administrative polygons, and is also quite
> reliable. Why would we give this up?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] mapping default values? (was: Maximum snelheid in Vlaanderen, maxspeed in Flanders)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-10-05 3:35 GMT+02:00 André Pirard :

> I don't think that default values like maxspeed=*,  driving_side=*, or
> even oneway=no should be tagged on highways.
> Most roads (in Belgium and in the world) don't contain any, BTW, and it
> makes no sense using a few.
> A default values specification should be used instead.
> Those tags should be contained in the highest level administrative
> boundary relation or equivalent in which they apply.
> maxspeed=70 should apply to Flanders and maxspeed=90 to Wallonia.
>


what you propose is not working, because speed limits are about roads, not
administrative entities. You have to know the context (rural/urban inside
settlement according to traffic law, etc.) in order to assign a maxspeed,
and the only way we currently use to understand which context applies are
the source:maxspeed values. It is very simple, doesn't require
preprocessing, can be applied by everyone without looking for and
downloading surrounding administrative polygons, and is also quite
reliable. Why would we give this up?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] mapping default values? (was: Maximum snelheid in Vlaanderen, maxspeed in Flanders)

[André Pirard]

On 2016-09-27 11:43, Marc Gemis wrote:
> Hallo,
>
> op 1/1/2017 daalt de snelheid op Vlaamse gewestwegen van 90 naar 70.
> Normaal gezien zullen we die wegen (zonder expliciete borden) dan
> moeten taggen met
>
> maxspeed=70
> source:maxspeed=??:rural
>
> maar wat komt er op de plaats van de vraagtekens ? Volgens [1] staat
> daar de landcode, maar het geldt enkel voor Vlaanderen.
> Ik zou tegen dan de BENELUX presets willen aanpassen.
>
> -
> English:
>
> On 1/1/2017 the maxspeeds on Flemish roads is lowered to 70. We should
> map those roads (without signs) with
>
> maxspeed=70
> source:maxpseed=??:rural
>
> Which "country" code should I use in the BENELUX plugin ? See [1] for
> the syntax of maxspeed.
Note to "foreigners" (as Americans would call you):
Belgium is made of Flanders and Wallonia: Flanders steps down to 70 km/h
default while Wallonia stays at 90.

I don't think that default values like maxspeed=*,  driving_side=*, or
even oneway=no should be tagged on highways.
Most roads (in Belgium and in the world) don't contain any, BTW, and it
makes no sense using a few.
A default values specification should be used instead.
Those tags should be contained in the highest level administrative
boundary relation or equivalent in which they apply.
maxspeed=70 should apply to Flanders and maxspeed=90 to Wallonia.
Please note this (fuzzy again) sentence about driving_side=* : "Only add
it to a highway when it's driving side is an exception to the general
rule (and check that the general rule is tagged in your country
relation)." (they mean "its" driving side).
Which relation?  It's certainly not tagged in the Belgian boundary
 and not even in the
duplicate place .
So, a default value procedure is badly needed but is not implemented and
when a hacked fuzzy lookalike is documented, it is not used.

Cheers

André.


> regards
>
> m
>
>
> p.s. Ruben, please let me know which preset you want for variable
> maxspeeds. I'll add it when I change the above.
>
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed
>
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