Re: [Tagging] nursing homes and group homes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 28 giu 2016, alle ore 07:35, Georg Feddern  
> ha scritto:
> 
> So I understand:
> retirement home /group home as social_facility=assisted_living
> nursing home as social_facility=group_home


I believe there is some misconception because the linked Wikipedia article for 
group homes also deals with nursing homes, but that doesn't mean they are group 
homes.

cit: " A group home is a private residence for children or young people who 
cannot live with their families, or people with chronic disabilities who may be 
adults or seniors. Typically there are no more than six residents and there is 
at least one trained caregiver there 24 hours a day.[1] In some early "model 
programs", a house manager, night manager, weekend activity coordinator, and 4 
part-time skill teachers were reported.[2]Originally, the term group home 
referred to homes of 8 to 16 individuals, which was a state-mandated size 
during deinstitutionalization.[3]Residential nursing facilities, also included 
in this article, may be as large in 2015 as 100 individuals, which is no longer 
the case in field such as intellectual and developmental disabilities.[4]"

compare also to nursing home:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursing_home_care


> 
> Does not really make sense of the tag names itself - but of there description.


I believe we have to slightly adjust the definitions of the values to be what 
the tag says. Using feature=swan for a duck might be defined in the wiki, but 
will still not work well for tagging ducks.


cheers,
Martin ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] nursing homes and group homes

[Georg Feddern]

Am 27.06.2016 um 12:17 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


+1 to
social_facility=nursing_home



Just some days ago I had to change with my father from a retirement home 
(with ambulant care) to a nursing home with 24/7 care.


I looked at the social_facility scheme - stumbled about the disclaimer - 
was really confused at first - and changed the tagging then.


First off all I understood the meaning of 
social_facility=group_home;social_facilty:for=senior for a retirement 
home / group home - as written in the description.
But looking at social_facility=assisted_living _that_ describes a 
retirement home / group_home - at least in my opinion and understanding 
of the description.


So I understand:
retirement home /group home as social_facility=assisted_living
nursing home as social_facility=group_home

Does not really make sense of the tag names itself - but of there 
description.


Georg
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] nursing homes and group homes

[Greg Troxel]

Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:

> Recently we have discovered (in a thread on the Italian ML), that someone
> has deprecated amenity=nursing_home by putting a disclaimer on the wikipage
> [1] to use
>
> amenity=social_facility
> social_facility=group_home
>
> because the tags are newer.

That sounds like wikifiddling.

> From my understanding, these are different things, where a nursing home is
> a place for people in need of permanent care (maybe in groups but more
> likely not), while group_home is a very specific kind of structure for
> which (small) groups (of the people to be looked after) are necessarily
> required.

Agreed, mostly.  In en_US (these terms are often different in different
countries), there is:

  assisted_living: you have an apartment, and get meals, cleaning, and
  washing of sheets.  Basically for people physicall unable to live on
  their own, or because of dementia.  You can get more help (showering,
  medication management, more laundry, etc.), but they can't put pills
  in your mouth or give injectable medications.  You often aren't
  allowed to have a stove or anything dangerous like that.  There is a
  nurse around sometimes, sometimes not.  Usually a large building with
  many people.  Feels like a dorm for old people.   Has a big obvious sign
  out front, saying something like "Sunny Acres Assisted Living" or
  "Sunny Acres Senior Residence".

  "nursing home", also "long-term care".  As above, but has nurses 24x7
  and a doctor most of the time; they can handle injectable medication,
  people who need 2 people to get them in and out of bed, and people
  that can't get out of bed.  Often a joint long-term care and rehab
  hospital.  People often move from assisted living to nursing home when
  they deteriorate.  Feels almost like a hospital.  Again usually a
  largish facility.  Has a big obvious sign out front, saying something
  like "Sunny Acres Nursing Home".

  "group home".  Almost always for people whose issues are mental,
  substance abuse, or behavioral rather than physical.  They almost
  never have nurses; they instead have "counselors" who look after the
  residents, try to keep them functioning, try to keep them out of
  trouble, and call the police to find them when they go missing.
  Usually a regular house type building in a regular neigborhood.  Often
  only 4-8 residents plus several staff.  Part of the point is to make
  it feel de-institutionalized and more like a bunch of roommates, even
  though that's not how it is.  Almost never has a sign, and tries to be
  low profile.  Can sometimes be called halfway-house (in that it is
  intermediate between a psychiatric hospital and regular society),
  although that term is probably considered derogatory now.

There is also

  "independent living" An apartment like assisted living, but they don't
  help you with medications or showering.  They will often have 1 meal
  served per day and do housekeeping.  You have a functioning kitchen.
  Calling this "social_facility" seems wrong.

  "rest home"  An old-fashioned word that is not used much.  Probably
  would denote independent living, but could mean assisted_living.
  Should not be tagged because it is ambiguous.

  "over 55 condo": regular condo, but you have to be >=55 and not have
  children to live there.  Definitely not social_facility - just regular
  dwelling units with a rule about who can move it (normally such rules
  are illegal).

> Some nursing homes might also be group homes, but not all of them are (and
> there don't seem to be social facility tags to cover all nursing home
> instances, likely on purpose, because there is already an established
> nursing home tag).

In my experience, nursing homes and group homes do not overlap.  If
there were a small nursing home with 8 people, no one would call it a
group home.  But nursing homes are never small, because you need
multiple LPNs (1st level of US nurse certification) on duty 24x7, and
small ones would not make sense economically.


I find "social_facility" to be a strange tag (no one would call any of
those places that name), but the important thing from the en_US
viewpoint is to keep assisted/nursing/group/independent separate.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] nursing homes and group homes

[Dave Swarthout]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 4:55 AM, John Willis  wrote:

> +1 to
> social_facility=nursing_home
>

I agree also with John's statement about the differences between a
nursing_home and a group_home. A nursing_home provides full service and
care for people who cannot take care of themselves.

To my way of thinking, a group_home would include places we call a
halfway_house, a place where folks can live when they are undergoing drug
addiction treatment and might include what we in the U.S. call
assisted_living but I'm not sure if these categories overlap too much or
not at all. There is a social_facility=assisted_living tag already having
almost 10K uses.

Cheers,
Dave

-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] nursing homes and group homes

[John Willis]

> On Jun 27, 2016, at 7:17 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> +1 to 
> social_facility=nursing_home

+1 
As I understand it, the care given in a nursing home is much greater. My Mother 
In Law lives in a nice home after a stroke; she cannot do any basic living 
functions without someone to assist her. My uncle was on a bicycle and was hit 
by a car and they removed a piece of his brain; they cared for him for 6 years 
as he chewed on the bedsheets until he mercifully passed. Both facilities 
offered full daily support and preparation for every action and need a resident 
has, down to bathing - does a group home mean the same thing? AFAIK it means a 
home where guests still enjoy some level of autonomy or choice in actions, 
while needing some help with tasks. The residents at a nursing home are there 
because of their inability to mentally make those decisions nor care for 
themselves on almost any level. (Unless I have misunderstood something).  
Tagging should be pretty clear those are separate. 

Javbw. ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] nursing homes and group homes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-06-27 11:56 GMT+02:00 Tom Pfeifer :

> No. amenity=social_facility is a success story of structured tagging, and
> nursing_home -> social_facility shows in Mathias Dahl excellent tag
> migration
> analysis [1] as the tag with the highest transition count, thus excellent
> acceptance among mappers.
>
> A nursing home is indeed a social facility, and with the sub-tags of
> social_facility=* and social_facility:for=* you can specify quite
> precisely what type it is and who it is provided for.
>



for nursing homes it doesn't (yet) seem to be a success story, there are
only (or at least there are) 12 social_facility=nursing_home but 11899
amenity=nursing_home.

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/social_facility#values

I am not against the idea to use social facility tagging for nursing homes,
I just think it should be its own value in "social_facility" and not
mistagged as group home.

+1 to
social_facility=nursing_home

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] nursing homes and group homes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-06-27 11:48 GMT+02:00 Matthijs Melissen :

> No, in my opinion, amenity=social_facility+social_facility=group_home
> was intended as a structured way of tagging amenity=nursing_home.
>


wouldn't it make more sense to use social_facility=group_home only for
group homes and something different for nursing homes?

Also because otherwise we would have replaced one tag
(amenity=nursing_home) with 3 tags (amenity=social_facility
social_facility=group_home social_facility:for=senior) that say less (same
tagging as group homes for seniors and same tagging as retirement homes).

Or maybe add something like
social_facility:for=senior+{disabled;diseased;mental_health}

Cheers
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] nursing homes and group homes

[Warin]

On 6/27/2016 7:56 PM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2016/06/27 11:20:
Recently we have discovered (in a thread on the Italian ML), that 
someone has deprecated amenity=nursing_home by putting a disclaimer 
on the wikipage [1] to use


amenity=social_facility
social_facility=group_home

[...]
What do you say, shouldn't we remove this disclaimer from the nursing 
home page and shall we continue to encourage the use of the tag 
amenity=nursing_home where it applies to?


No. amenity=social_facility is a success story of structured tagging, and
nursing_home -> social_facility shows in Mathias Dahl excellent tag 
migration

analysis [1] as the tag with the highest transition count, thus excellent
acceptance among mappers.

A nursing home is indeed a social facility, and with the sub-tags of
social_facility=* and social_facility:for=* you can specify quite
precisely what type it is and who it is provided for.

I agree that subsuming permanent care under the type 
social_facility=group_home

is not ideal, and it might be possible to develop a better match,
such as social_facility=permanent_care (contrasting the 
=ambulatory_care) or similar

for this type, even social_facility=nursing_home could be possible.

[1] 
http://matiasdahl.iki.fi/2015/finding-related-amenity-tags-on-the-openstreetmap


The first wiki page for social_facility=group_home back in May 2011 says 
"amenity=nursing_home not to be used" .. and list the status as approved 
.. so it should have been talked about somewhere. ~21,000 occurrences in 
the data base.
The wiki page for amenity=nursing_home has the status of 'inuse' .. 
~11,000 occurrences in the data base.



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] nursing homes and group homes

[Tom Pfeifer]

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2016/06/27 11:20:

Recently we have discovered (in a thread on the Italian ML), that someone has 
deprecated amenity=nursing_home by putting a disclaimer on the wikipage [1] to 
use

amenity=social_facility
social_facility=group_home

[...]

What do you say, shouldn't we remove this disclaimer from the nursing home page 
and shall we continue to encourage the use of the tag amenity=nursing_home 
where it applies to?


No. amenity=social_facility is a success story of structured tagging, and
nursing_home -> social_facility shows in Mathias Dahl excellent tag migration
analysis [1] as the tag with the highest transition count, thus excellent
acceptance among mappers.

A nursing home is indeed a social facility, and with the sub-tags of
social_facility=* and social_facility:for=* you can specify quite
precisely what type it is and who it is provided for.

I agree that subsuming permanent care under the type social_facility=group_home
is not ideal, and it might be possible to develop a better match,
such as social_facility=permanent_care (contrasting the =ambulatory_care) or 
similar
for this type, even social_facility=nursing_home could be possible.

[1] 
http://matiasdahl.iki.fi/2015/finding-related-amenity-tags-on-the-openstreetmap

tom

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging