Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 30/03/2016 22:35, John F. Eldredge wrote:
In the 19th century, a chandler was someone who made and sold candles, 
and so there were many chandlers who didn't deal in nautical supplies. 
When did the meaning shift?




A couple of explanations, and lots of links, here:

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/28159/chandlery-from-candles-to-ships

FWIW Brewer's, which is usually good for this sort of thing, doesn't 
mention it.  Chambers' has something like "... and also dealer of 
anything, e.g. corn-chandler".


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[John F. Eldredge]

In the 19th century, a chandler was someone who made and sold candles, and 
so there were many chandlers who didn't deal in nautical supplies. When did 
the meaning shift?




On March 14, 2016 6:50:22 AM Richard  wrote:


On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 07:20:46AM +, Malcolm Herring wrote:

The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the
type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term


this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
would even know they are called chandler?

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Richard]

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 09:33:13AM +1100, Warin wrote:
> On 16/03/2016 12:33 AM, Stefano wrote:
> >
> >
> >2016-03-15 11:32 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring  >>:
> >
> >On 15/03/2016 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >
> >and do you go to the same shops?
> >
> >
> >Yes. Chandleries cater for all types of small craft.
> >
> >
> >
> >Chandlers are called also to supply materials and groceries to vessels
> >calling at the port (container / conventional ships), at least in my
> >company I hear them called as such also when dealing with foreign
> >agents...
> >
> >Stefano
> >
> >
> 
> Chandlers are commonly also used in Australia and New Zealand by those
> concerned. I see no reason not to continue using the term that is inuse in
> British English.

although I like traditions I think "boat supplies" has advantages like
beeing more specific and descriptive. Having read all the different
opinions and the wikipedia articles in 2 languages about ship chandlers
it seems that the term has a fairly broad meaning and not every ship 
chandler would do boat supplies for small boats for example which was 
the OPs main objective.

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Warin]

On 16/03/2016 12:33 AM, Stefano wrote:



2016-03-15 11:32 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring 
>:


On 15/03/2016 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

and do you go to the same shops?


Yes. Chandleries cater for all types of small craft.



Chandlers are called also to supply materials and groceries to vessels 
calling at the port (container / conventional ships), at least in my 
company I hear them called as such also when dealing with foreign 
agents...


Stefano




Chandlers are commonly also used in Australia and New Zealand by those 
concerned. I see no reason not to continue using the term that is inuse 
in British English.


Distinction between 'small' and 'large' for water vessels can simply be 
done using their existing method - a 'boat' or a 'ship'.





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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Richard]

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 11:45:57AM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2016-03-15 11:32 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring :
> 
> > Yes. Chandleries cater for all types of small craft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +1 to shop=boat_supplies then

+1, this is clearer than shop=marine and I think the distinction between
boat and large vessel should not cause any trouble

Richard


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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Stefano]

2016-03-15 11:32 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring :

> On 15/03/2016 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> and do you go to the same shops?
>>
>
> Yes. Chandleries cater for all types of small craft.
>
>
>
Chandlers are called also to supply materials and groceries to vessels
calling at the port (container / conventional ships), at least in my
company I hear them called as such also when dealing with foreign agents...

Stefano


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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Antoine Beaupré]

On 2016-03-15 05:38:46, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> Maybe "shop=boating_supplies"?

Why not shop=boat then?

We could have a sub-tag to define whether the shop actually sells boats
or just supplies. Just need to figure out how that works exactly.

No?

I'm weary of introducing *yet* another tag, instead of reusing one of
the four that are already in use  out there (boat, marine, chandler,
ship_chandler).

https://xkcd.com/927/

A.

-- 
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Andreas Labres]

On 15.03.16 11:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2016-03-15 11:32 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring >:


Yes. Chandleries cater for all types of small craft.


+1 to shop=boat_supplies then


+1

And this is an example I'd tag this way:

http://www.marine.at/

/al
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Malcolm Herring]

On 15/03/2016 11:02, Colin Smale wrote:

How would you define "small" in this context?



Any pleasure craft, from one person inflatable dingies to luxury 
cruisers, and from sailboards to Larry Ellison's behemoth.



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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Colin Smale]

How would you define "small" in this context? 

On 2016-03-15 11:32, Malcolm Herring wrote:

> On 15/03/2016 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 
> 
>> and do you go to the same shops?
> 
> Yes. Chandleries cater for all types of small craft.
> 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-15 11:32 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring :

> Yes. Chandleries cater for all types of small craft.




+1 to shop=boat_supplies then

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Malcolm Herring]

On 15/03/2016 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

and do you go to the same shops?


Yes. Chandleries cater for all types of small craft.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 15.03.2016 um 10:31 schrieb Richard Fairhurst :
> 
> dieterdreist wrote:
>> Maybe shop=sailing_supplies? Or ship_supplies?
> 
> Some of us have boats (not ships) with engines (not sails). :)


and do you go to the same shops?

M

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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 15.03.2016 um 00:45 schrieb Dave Swarthout :
> 
> "Historically, pharmacies were also known as chemists in the UK and 
> Commonwealth. In the past one could buy many common chemicals from such 
> shops, and the pharmacists could compound other chemicals and drugs 
> themselves.


FWIW, any pharmacy I know of (this is about Germany and Italy) has a laboratory 
and still does occasionally compound drugs (e.g. ointments), although it has 
become rare that they actually have to.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 15.03.2016 um 00:45 schrieb Dave Swarthout :
> 
> A perhaps similar case exists in the tag shop=chemist. Few people use this 
> term outside of Europe and the U.K. yet it persists and clouds the tagging of 
> what most people would call a pharmacy or even a drugstore.


note that pharmacies in many parts of the world, at least in all of Europe, are 
quite different from chemists/drugstores, as they sell mainly medicine and in 
Europe typically have the legally guaranteed monopoly to sell pharmaceuticals.

Chemists/drugstores nowadays mainly sell stuff for cleaning (the house, 
yourself and kids, toilet paper ...), often also some organic food (drinks, 
snacks, no grocery or meat), diapers, batteries, some makeup,candles, some 
stationery...
but there are very few of the old kind left (that also sold stuff like 
chemicals and others not pre-confectioned but by weight).

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Malcolm Herring]

On 15/03/2016 09:31, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Some of us have boats (not ships) with engines (not sails).:)


+1!

Maybe "shop=boating_supplies"?


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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Richard Fairhurst]

dieterdreist wrote:
> Maybe shop=sailing_supplies? Or ship_supplies?

Some of us have boats (not ships) with engines (not sails). :)

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

maybe chandler is a not so frequent term outside the UK (although I have found 
some relevant shops in Germany by searching for chandler and the name of a 
city), but I do believe that "marine" is too generic to be a good tag. 
Searching for marine shop I mostly found stuff related to the US marine corps.
Maybe shop=sailing_supplies? Or ship_supplies? Or is the focus of this tag on 
marine related clothing?

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Dave Swarthout]

I think we've hit upon yet another instance where the colloquial usage of a
term is causing problems. While I have heard of ship_chandlers before, the
term is not as popular in many parts of the world as in England or Europe.
Most mappers, especially younger ones, will throw up their hands upon
seeing shop=chandlery or its variations. I'm in favor of shop=marine
because IMO that term is more readily understandable than the other. At
least the word marine suggests ocean.

A perhaps similar case exists in the tag shop=chemist. Few people use this
term outside of Europe and the U.K. yet it persists and clouds the tagging
of what most people would call a pharmacy or even a drugstore. However, we
don't have a shop=pharmacy in OSM. For some reason it was put into the
amenity category and now amenity=pharmacy has over 157,000 uses while
shop=chemist has 16K uses and is certainly a confusing situation. One
person suggests on the discussion page of the amenity=pharmacy that stores
such as CVS and Boots should be tagged with both shop=chemist and
amenity=pharmacy depending on whether it dispenses prescription drugs. And
I can practically guarantee that if you walk into your local CVS and ask
them if they work in a chemist shop you'll get a blank stare in return.

In addition, in the Wiki entry for shop=chemist there is this paragraph:

"Historically, pharmacies were also known as chemists in the UK and
Commonwealth. In the past one could buy many common chemicals from such
shops, and the pharmacists could compound other chemicals and drugs
themselves. For most of the 20th century this meant that these shops were
also a common place to buy photographic products and services (film, film
processing, processing chemicals, etc.), but this role ceased for several
reasons: increased complexity of drugs; mail-order photo processing;
restrictions on sale of many chemicals). *This is tag name is therefore a
legacy of that phase in time*."

To my mind ship_chandler is just that, a legacy term, an historic holdover
from an earlier time.

Dave




On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 5:49 AM, Stefano  wrote:

>
> 2016-03-14 23:28 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
>
>> On 14/03/2016 11:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>>
>>> Richard Z. wrote:
>>>
 this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
 would even know they are called chandler?

>>> All of them, in my (fairly extensive) experience.
>>>
>>> http://reader.waterwaysworld.com/fullsearch.cgi?q=chandlery
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> A google for 'ship chandlers' on
>> https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ships+chandlers
>>
>> turns up quite a few that themselves use the term 'Chandlery' in their
>> own description.
>>
>> I think the term is common in the boating and shipping world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
> In Genoa (Italy), I have at least two naval supplies shops naming
> themselves "(ship) chandlers".
>  One of them is this one http://www.yachtchandler.it/ (I mapped with the
> openseamap tagging plus shop=ship_chandler)
> The other one was established in 1858, has "ship chandler" on the sign,
> but I haven't yet mapped it.
> Another one I have mapped some years ago as shop=chandler (but no
> 'chandler' in the name iirc).
>
> Regards,
> Stefano
>
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-- 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Stefano]

2016-03-14 23:28 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 14/03/2016 11:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>
>> Richard Z. wrote:
>>
>>> this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
>>> would even know they are called chandler?
>>>
>> All of them, in my (fairly extensive) experience.
>>
>> http://reader.waterwaysworld.com/fullsearch.cgi?q=chandlery
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
> A google for 'ship chandlers' on
> https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ships+chandlers
>
> turns up quite a few that themselves use the term 'Chandlery' in their own
> description.
>
> I think the term is common in the boating and shipping world.
>
>
>
> Hi all,
In Genoa (Italy), I have at least two naval supplies shops naming
themselves "(ship) chandlers".
 One of them is this one http://www.yachtchandler.it/ (I mapped with the
openseamap tagging plus shop=ship_chandler)
The other one was established in 1858, has "ship chandler" on the sign, but
I haven't yet mapped it.
Another one I have mapped some years ago as shop=chandler (but no
'chandler' in the name iirc).

Regards,
Stefano

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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Warin]

On 14/03/2016 11:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Richard Z. wrote:

this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
would even know they are called chandler?

All of them, in my (fairly extensive) experience.

http://reader.waterwaysworld.com/fullsearch.cgi?q=chandlery

Richard





A google for 'ship chandlers' on 
https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ships+chandlers

turns up quite a few that themselves use the term 'Chandlery' in their own 
description.

I think the term is common in the boating and shipping world.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Richard]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 10:02:36AM -0400, Antoine Beaupré wrote:

> I also found out there is *already* a shop=ship_chandler wiki page,
> which I totally overlooked because, like others here, I had no idea what
> a chandler meant.

indeed, I have sailed in two oceans and in addition asked someone in 
the Pacific and neither of us has seen or heard of a ship chandler. 
So the term may be somewhat lesser known outside of UK?

Richard



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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Antoine Beaupré]

(Sorry for breaking threads, I only follow the non-MIME digest... :/)

I see that the proposal is generally well received, although the exact
keyword is debated.

I am not sure how to resolve such situations in OSM. It seems like a
classic localisation problem!

For now, I have added the shop=chandler proposal to the wiki page and a
summary of the conversation so far in the comments.

I also found out there is *already* a shop=ship_chandler wiki page,
which I totally overlooked because, like others here, I had no idea what
a chandler meant.

Disclaimer: I am a young sailor in Québec, Canada (so on the west side
of the Atlantic), and my native tongue is french, yet I consider myself
to be bilingual. But I still "learned the ropes" in french... For me,
marine shop is more meaningful than "chandler" or even "ship_chandler",
unfortunately.

We still have two weeks before I proceed with the voting, so keep those
suggestions coming.

In particular, I am wondering if we shouldn't just focus on the more
popular shop=boat tag and avoid the "marine vs chandler" debate
altogether, by adding boat shops specific fields..?

I am not sure what those would be, unfortunately... But it now seems
very clear that a cleanup of those tags is in order, because there's at
least three different ways of mapping those!

Thanks for the feedback!

A.
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La guerre, c'est le massacre d'hommes qui ne se connaissent pas,
au profit d'hommes qui se connaissent mais ne se massacreront pas.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2016-03-14 at 19:41 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> Andy, as I said, the term is a bit old fashioned. I came across that
> derivation of the English surname Chandler when I was doing genealogy
> and it stuck with me.
> 
> http://www.dictionary.com/browse/chandler?s=t
> 
> I have no idea what a modern candlemaker might be called LOL
Its certainly not old fashioned, it is commonly used for these shops.
Living just about as far away from the coast as its possible to get,
its something I have seen on numerous occasions.
Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Dave Swarthout]

Andy, as I said, the term is a bit old fashioned. I came across that
derivation of the English surname Chandler when I was doing genealogy and
it stuck with me.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/chandler?s=t

I have no idea what a modern candlemaker might be called LOL



On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 7:19 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 14/03/2016 11:48, Richard wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 07:20:46AM +, Malcolm Herring wrote:
>>
>>> The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to
>>> the
>>> type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term
>>>
>> this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
>> would even know they are called chandler?
>>
>>
> It is - read https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chandler again.
>
> I wouldn't trust everything you read there though (a chandler is not
> primarily "A person who makes or sells candles").  The main English English
> use of "chandler" is in the sense of "ship's chandler" - someone who sells
> all sorts of stuff that might be useful to someone on a boat.
>
> The wider sense ("someone who sells all sorts of stuff") is used, but more
> rarely.  There's an example in
> http://halfmanhalfbiscuit.uk/90-bisodol-crimond/descent-of-the-stiperstones/
> (which exists and is http://www.bunners.co.uk/ ), for example. That's in
> OSM as http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/489847395 (and "shop=hardware"
> there is correct, I think).
>
> Although it's in the etymology, I've never heard of a modern candle-maker
> being described as a chandler.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Richard Fairhurst]

Richard Z. wrote:
> this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
> would even know they are called chandler?

All of them, in my (fairly extensive) experience.

http://reader.waterwaysworld.com/fullsearch.cgi?q=chandlery

Richard



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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Andy Townsend]

On 14/03/2016 11:48, Richard wrote:

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 07:20:46AM +, Malcolm Herring wrote:

The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the
type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term

this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
would even know they are called chandler?



It is - read https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chandler again.

I wouldn't trust everything you read there though (a chandler is not 
primarily "A person who makes or sells candles").  The main English 
English use of "chandler" is in the sense of "ship's chandler" - someone 
who sells all sorts of stuff that might be useful to someone on a boat.


The wider sense ("someone who sells all sorts of stuff") is used, but 
more rarely.  There's an example in 
http://halfmanhalfbiscuit.uk/90-bisodol-crimond/descent-of-the-stiperstones/ 
(which exists and is http://www.bunners.co.uk/ ), for example. That's in 
OSM as http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/489847395 (and "shop=hardware" 
there is correct, I think).


Although it's in the etymology, I've never heard of a modern 
candle-maker being described as a chandler.


Cheers,

Andy




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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Richard]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 07:20:46AM +, Malcolm Herring wrote:
> The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the
> type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term

this meaning is not even in wiktionary. How many of those shops
would even know they are called chandler?

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-14 8:20 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring :

> The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the
> type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term



+1

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Dave Swarthout]

@Tod,

You are probably correct, as far as the OED is concerned. IMO that term is
a bit old fashioned. I see most of those ship_chandler shops are in Europe
which doesn't surprise me. In the U.S. the term "marine" or "marine
supplies" is much more common. Taginfo reports shop=marine occurs 99 times
worldwide. By the way, the term chandler is a derivation of candler, a shop
that sells candles.

But I don't have a strong opinion on this. More just an observation.

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 2:20 PM, Malcolm Herring <
malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to the
> type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term
>
>
>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Malcolm Herring]

The common name for such shops is "chandler". This is more specific to 
the type of shop you want to tag. "marine" is too broad a term



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Re: [Tagging] shop=marine RFC

[Dave Swarthout]

shop=marine would be a useful addition IMO.



My town of Homer, Alaska, is a commercial fishing area and it has several
such shops. They sell fishing gear, clothing, navigation devices, fittings
for boats (cleats, pullies, etc.), line and chain, boat finishing paints
and lacquers, and boat-specific hand tools. I don't think I ever tagged
them but I will do that if I haven't already.

Cheers,
Dave

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 7:10 AM, Antoine Beaupré  wrote:

> It seems to me there needs to be some marine shop tags out there,
> distinct from "boat selling" places.
>
> At the very least, some clarifications seem needed in the latter tag if
> it is deemed sufficient.
>
> See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Marine_shops
>
> Thanks for any comments.
>
> a.
> --
> A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not
> prove anything.
>  - Friedrich Nietzshe
>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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