Re: [Tails-dev] [brainstorm] What are our public XMPP chat rooms useful for? (#17956)
intrigeri: - some of our soul and identity, i.e. "we work in the open" - a place where friendly bystanders can lurk and follow our work: FOSS developers, users, etc. Devil's advocate: How good is #tails to follow our work compared to: - #tails-summit to which friendly bystanders don't have access to? Though I'm not sure what's done where these days. - Our public monthly reports? It's not the same kind of information, which is would be more useful to follow our work and for which public? - https://gitlab.tails.boum.org/tails/tails/-/issues?sort=updated_desc - a little bit of the efforts we've put into dismantling the long-standing myth that Tails is produced by some sort of secret, unapproachable group of anonymous people Devil's advocate: Big tech and proprietary software companies have neither public development channels nor suffer from the myth of being pseudo-clandestine organizations. Having a public XMPP room wouldn't add much if this was solved on our website: - #17700: Have an "About Us" section - #17046: Have a "People" page -- sajolida Tails — https://tails.boum.org/ UX · Fundraising · Technical Writing OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://www.autistici.org/mailman/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
Re: [Tails-dev] [brainstorm] What are our public XMPP chat rooms useful for? (#17956)
On 08/01/21 07:56, Austin English wrote: > On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 2:41 AM intrigeri wrote: >> Hi, >> >> (dropping my facilitator hat for this message) >> >> intrigeri (2021-01-03): >>> So, my question is: >>> >>> What would we lose if we did not have any public chat room? >>> In other words: >>> >>> What new problems would we face if we did not have any public >>> chat room? >> I think we would lose: >> >> - some of our soul and identity, i.e. "we work in the open" >> >> - a place where friendly bystanders can lurk and follow our work: >>FOSS developers, users, etc. >> >> - a little bit of the efforts we've put into dismantling the >>long-standing myth that Tails is produced by some sort of secret, >>unapproachable group of anonymous people >> >> - a place where existing contributors who don't have access to our private >>communication channels can get a feeling of belonging, by hanging >>out with the rest of us >> >> - a place where we can meet new contributors, get to know each other, >>collaborate and build trust until the project is comfortable with >>giving them more privileges >> >> Practically speaking, my main concern is that the implied subtle >> cultural shift and newly closed doors would make the boundary between >> in-group folks and kind-of-outsiders even harder to cross. >> >> This would make it a bit harder to go from "volunteer contributor" to >> "paid worker" (such transitions are rare in our recent past, but there >> are a few noticeable ones if we look further back in time), or from >> "unprivileged contributor" to "full-blown project member". >> >> Finally, note that we already lost quite some of this when we moved >> from IRC @ OFTC (where lots of FOSS contributors hang out already) to >> XMPP (which for many people would require extra setup work). IMO the >> status quo, in all these respects, is not great. > > FWIW, as a former/lapsed volunteer developer (and still active FOSS > developer), I appreciated having a public chat that I could drop in to > ask questions of the devs. > > I would've greatly preferred an IRC option, since I more generally use > that. I only set up XMPP to chat with tails developers when I needed > it, but it was useful when I did use it. > > If possible, I'd love to see a public chat option preserved for > precisely the reasons intrigeri mentioned. > > In any event, keep up the great work! Hopefully I'll find some time to > contribute again this year :). > -- > -Austin > GPG: 267B CC1F 053F 0749 (expires 2021/02/18) really shortly, I find also usefull xmpp chat for contact quick of tails devs, and because I like more than others 1000 newer instant messaging solutions. hugs ignifugo > ___ > Tails-dev mailing list > Tails-dev@boum.org > https://www.autistici.org/mailman/listinfo/tails-dev > To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to > tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org. ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://www.autistici.org/mailman/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
Re: [Tails-dev] [brainstorm] What are our public XMPP chat rooms useful for? (#17956)
On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 2:41 AM intrigeri wrote: > > Hi, > > (dropping my facilitator hat for this message) > > intrigeri (2021-01-03): > > So, my question is: > > > > What would we lose if we did not have any public chat room? > > > In other words: > > > > What new problems would we face if we did not have any public > > chat room? > > I think we would lose: > > - some of our soul and identity, i.e. "we work in the open" > > - a place where friendly bystanders can lurk and follow our work: >FOSS developers, users, etc. > > - a little bit of the efforts we've put into dismantling the >long-standing myth that Tails is produced by some sort of secret, >unapproachable group of anonymous people > > - a place where existing contributors who don't have access to our private >communication channels can get a feeling of belonging, by hanging >out with the rest of us > > - a place where we can meet new contributors, get to know each other, >collaborate and build trust until the project is comfortable with >giving them more privileges > > Practically speaking, my main concern is that the implied subtle > cultural shift and newly closed doors would make the boundary between > in-group folks and kind-of-outsiders even harder to cross. > > This would make it a bit harder to go from "volunteer contributor" to > "paid worker" (such transitions are rare in our recent past, but there > are a few noticeable ones if we look further back in time), or from > "unprivileged contributor" to "full-blown project member". > > Finally, note that we already lost quite some of this when we moved > from IRC @ OFTC (where lots of FOSS contributors hang out already) to > XMPP (which for many people would require extra setup work). IMO the > status quo, in all these respects, is not great. FWIW, as a former/lapsed volunteer developer (and still active FOSS developer), I appreciated having a public chat that I could drop in to ask questions of the devs. I would've greatly preferred an IRC option, since I more generally use that. I only set up XMPP to chat with tails developers when I needed it, but it was useful when I did use it. If possible, I'd love to see a public chat option preserved for precisely the reasons intrigeri mentioned. In any event, keep up the great work! Hopefully I'll find some time to contribute again this year :). -- -Austin GPG: 267B CC1F 053F 0749 (expires 2021/02/18) ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://www.autistici.org/mailman/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
Re: [Tails-dev] [brainstorm] What are our public XMPP chat rooms useful for? (#17956)
Hi, (dropping my facilitator hat for this message) intrigeri (2021-01-03): > So, my question is: > > What would we lose if we did not have any public chat room? > In other words: > > What new problems would we face if we did not have any public > chat room? I think we would lose: - some of our soul and identity, i.e. "we work in the open" - a place where friendly bystanders can lurk and follow our work: FOSS developers, users, etc. - a little bit of the efforts we've put into dismantling the long-standing myth that Tails is produced by some sort of secret, unapproachable group of anonymous people - a place where existing contributors who don't have access to our private communication channels can get a feeling of belonging, by hanging out with the rest of us - a place where we can meet new contributors, get to know each other, collaborate and build trust until the project is comfortable with giving them more privileges Practically speaking, my main concern is that the implied subtle cultural shift and newly closed doors would make the boundary between in-group folks and kind-of-outsiders even harder to cross. This would make it a bit harder to go from "volunteer contributor" to "paid worker" (such transitions are rare in our recent past, but there are a few noticeable ones if we look further back in time), or from "unprivileged contributor" to "full-blown project member". Finally, note that we already lost quite some of this when we moved from IRC @ OFTC (where lots of FOSS contributors hang out already) to XMPP (which for many people would require extra setup work). IMO the status quo, in all these respects, is not great. Cheers! ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://www.autistici.org/mailman/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
Re: [Tails-dev] [brainstorm] What are our public XMPP chat rooms useful for? (#17956)
Hi, boyska wrote: > intrigeri: >> The server we currently use for our public XMPP chat rooms will stop >> operations later this year. >> >> First, I would like to better understand what these public chat rooms >> are currently useful for, for our project and its contributors. >> This will help decide whether we keep public chat rooms at all. >> And if we do, it'll tell us what we expect from such a service. > > My feeling is that tails-...@conference.riseup.net is a good place for > people that want to mostly lurk, see that there's "something ongoing" > and know that they can step-in when they want to contribute somehow in > an informal manner. I agree with this. On several occasions, issues with the documentation (e.g., missing images) were mentioned in the tails-dev chat room and were quickly fixed. I don't know if the user(s) would've taken the time to create a ticket in GitLab. -- cbrownstein OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://www.autistici.org/mailman/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
Re: [Tails-dev] [brainstorm] What are our public XMPP chat rooms useful for? (#17956)
intrigeri: The server we currently use for our public XMPP chat rooms will stop operations later this year. First, I would like to better understand what these public chat rooms are currently useful for, for our project and its contributors. This will help decide whether we keep public chat rooms at all. And if we do, it'll tell us what we expect from such a service. My feeling is that tails-...@conference.riseup.net is a good place for people that want to mostly lurk, see that there's "something ongoing" and know that they can step-in when they want to contribute somehow in an informal manner. I'm not a fan of bringing most activity to private places, but I agree that is hard to find a specific answer to this question: What new problems would we face if we did not have any public chat room? ... but let me try: - Usecase "wet your feet". If someone wants to contribute to tails, I think that the current best way to make questions about typical problems related to building, testing, etc. is tails-dev room. Where should we point his/her if we lose this room? - Usecase "collaboration with dev of other projects". Let's say that A is a developer of the ever-important software FooBazzer. She finds that there is something that she'd like to discuss with us: for example, she wants to remove a feature that we currently use; or is interested in knowing if we are interested in some improvements. What opportunities does she have? - GitLab! But, are people comfortable with filing issues for things that are not bugs but just discussions? - Tails-dev ML. Though mailing lists are definitely slower than instant messaging, they also work better on different timezones and are still a viable way of doing so. have a nice week! -- boyska ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://www.autistici.org/mailman/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
[Tails-dev] [brainstorm] What are our public XMPP chat rooms useful for? (#17956)
Hi, Scope: "tails-dev" and "tails" public XMPP chat rooms. The server we currently use for our public XMPP chat rooms will stop operations later this year. First, I would like to better understand what these public chat rooms are currently useful for, for our project and its contributors. This will help decide whether we keep public chat rooms at all. And if we do, it'll tell us what we expect from such a service. So, my question is: What would we lose if we did not have any public chat room? In other words: What new problems would we face if we did not have any public chat room? Please share your input by January 17, after which I'll compile the answers publicly. Then, if it seems useful, I'll do a survey to better understand how important the benefits identified in this first round are to us as a group. Cheers! ___ Tails-dev mailing list Tails-dev@boum.org https://www.autistici.org/mailman/listinfo/tails-dev To unsubscribe from this list, send an empty email to tails-dev-unsubscr...@boum.org.
