Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[James Knott via talk]

On 2023-07-13 17:14, William Park via talk wrote:
However, you can't easily test serial, parallel, USB, network, and 
other I/Os, because you can't easily control both side of connection.


Actually, when I was a technician for CN Telecommunications, back in the 
70s, we had test sets for doing that with serial connections. Of course, 
these would be connecting different locations, sometimes across the 
country, not within an office.  Later on, there were Bit Error Rate 
Testers (BERT), for high speed connections.


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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

Thanks for getting back to my  question smiles.
I believe i have been focused on Motherboards more than the ports for your 
exact reason,  the ports are connection dependent.  what about boards 
themselves?




On Thu, 13 Jul 2023, William Park via talk wrote:

Getting back to original thread...  There are programs to test memory, cpu, 
and disk, because you have control of data, and can compare against expected 
data.


However, you can't easily test serial, parallel, USB, network, and other 
I/Os, because you can't easily control both side of connection.  People just 
try it, and if it works, then it works.  Eg.  Network -- Just try it, and if 
"google.com" gives you expected webpage, then it works.  Eg. USB -- Plug in a 
known usb stick or device, and if it works, then it works.


On 2023-07-11 18:05, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:

 Hi folks,
 What I am seeking is an open source program that tests aspects of say your
 motherboard.  that the serial ports or parallel ports work, that the USB
 ports are sound etc.
 I am asking  because due to an as of yet not fixed hydro problem in my
 new apartment, the occasional power surges, even with machines attached to
 protectors, are causing slight damage to hardware.
 Need to know how much as I only have so many computers I can use.
 Any program ideas?
 Will be sharing suggestions with someone hopefully helping me
 troubleshoot.
 Thanks,
 Karen


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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[William Park via talk]

Getting back to original thread...  There are programs to test memory, 
cpu, and disk, because you have control of data, and can compare against 
expected data.


However, you can't easily test serial, parallel, USB, network, and other 
I/Os, because you can't easily control both side of connection.  People 
just try it, and if it works, then it works.  Eg.  Network -- Just try 
it, and if "google.com" gives you expected webpage, then it works.  Eg. 
USB -- Plug in a known usb stick or device, and if it works, then it works.


On 2023-07-11 18:05, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:

Hi folks,
What I am seeking is an open source program that tests aspects of say 
your motherboard.  that the serial ports or parallel ports work, that 
the USB ports are sound etc.
I am asking  because due to an as of yet not fixed hydro problem in my 
new apartment, the occasional power surges, even with machines attached 
to protectors, are causing slight damage to hardware.

Need to know how much as I only have so many computers I can use.
Any program ideas?
Will be sharing suggestions with someone hopefully helping me troubleshoot.
Thanks,
Karen


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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 11:26 AM Scott Allen via talk  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 10:56, Karen Lewellen via talk  wrote:
> > for example the fridge is on an outlet with other  items
>
> The Canadian and Ontario electrical codes require a fridge to have its
> own dedicated circuit. (Actually, you're allowed to have an additional
> outlet above the fridge location, on the same circuit, for a 120V AC
> electric clock, which isn't commonly used or provided these days.) If
> there are other things on the fridge circuit, you should remove them
> if it's under your control. If these other items aren't under your
> control, you should inform your landlord that it's a violation of the
> electrical code.

You bet - - - - totally accurate as to about 2023 - - - any idea what
the code was
in ??? when that particular house was built? AIUI the fridge on a separate
circuit is from some time in the 80s so if the house was built in the 70s it
would have been code legal to do otherwise.
Is it a good idea to have the fridge on with other items - - - nope - - - but
codes change over time - - - sometimes in good ways and sometimes in
not so good ways.

Regards
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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Don Tai via talk]

If you live in an older house, older than a house built in the 1970s, then
you probably have fuses and not breakers. Older houses could have the
service panel upgraded to breakers, say from 100 amp to 200 amps. There is
a chance that someone could remove a fuse and not replace it immediately.
There are also blended cases where a panel can have fuses and some
breakers. A person that is not careful could touch the wrong place and
receive a nasty shock. I would not recommend you mess with your electrical
panel unless you are sure it is completely safe all the time.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 14:54, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> What exactly are the remaining problems that you can put your finger on?
>
> Laptops effectively have built-in UPSes.  They should not be affected by
> drooping voltage and a surge would have to be fairly large to harm it.  I
> would guess that the first thing to fail would be the power brick.  Have
> you tested the system with a different brick?
>
> A stereo that stops is an odd symptom.  What do you mean by "stop"?  What
> components do what?  (Many quite different constellations of devices are
> called stereos.)
>
> Do you have any remaining concrete problem with your computer? Wanting to
> run diagnostics is reasonable except that good broad spectrum tests are
> hard to find.  The best diagnostic seems to be running the computer on
> normal tasks.
>
> Diagnostics I use:
>  memtest86+ for RAM (stand-alone)
>  SMARTmon utilities for disks (Linux or Windows)
>  fsck for filesystems (Linux)
>
> | From: Karen Lewellen via talk 
> |
> | My explanation was not clear.
> | I believe the serge damaged the port  not the cable, which is why I am
> seeking
> | software to test the integrity of internal things like the motherboard.
> | My apartment is the upper basement of a house, where hydro is a part of
> my
> | rent.
> | However outlets on this floor seem to share circuits with other things
> both on
> | this floor and likely in the rest of the house which may not be wired
> well.
> | for example the fridge is on an outlet with other  items, so, at least
> | according to those who have already investigated a slight surge or
> feedback
> | may be being sent.
> | I suspect one of my older mac laptops has paid the price, my stereo
> which was
> | just refurbished will  stop, if something elsewhere int the house is
> turned on
> | those kinds of things.  Have to run extensions because the outlets are
> all
> | under the radiators etc.
> | The thing is though I cannot be sure  just what is damaged, without a
> tool to
> | test the internal  items like the board itself.  I only know the machine
> would
> | not speak, even though sighted help at the time indicated the software
> was
> | loading on the screen.
> | Kare
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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

What exactly are the remaining problems that you can put your finger on?

Laptops effectively have built-in UPSes.  They should not be affected by 
drooping voltage and a surge would have to be fairly large to harm it.  I 
would guess that the first thing to fail would be the power brick.  Have 
you tested the system with a different brick?

A stereo that stops is an odd symptom.  What do you mean by "stop"?  What 
components do what?  (Many quite different constellations of devices are 
called stereos.)

Do you have any remaining concrete problem with your computer? Wanting to 
run diagnostics is reasonable except that good broad spectrum tests are 
hard to find.  The best diagnostic seems to be running the computer on 
normal tasks.

Diagnostics I use:
 memtest86+ for RAM (stand-alone)
 SMARTmon utilities for disks (Linux or Windows)
 fsck for filesystems (Linux)

| From: Karen Lewellen via talk 
| 
| My explanation was not clear.
| I believe the serge damaged the port  not the cable, which is why I am seeking
| software to test the integrity of internal things like the motherboard.
| My apartment is the upper basement of a house, where hydro is a part of my
| rent.
| However outlets on this floor seem to share circuits with other things both on
| this floor and likely in the rest of the house which may not be wired well.
| for example the fridge is on an outlet with other  items, so, at least
| according to those who have already investigated a slight surge or feedback
| may be being sent.
| I suspect one of my older mac laptops has paid the price, my stereo which was
| just refurbished will  stop, if something elsewhere int the house is turned on
| those kinds of things.  Have to run extensions because the outlets are all
| under the radiators etc.
| The thing is though I cannot be sure  just what is damaged, without a tool to
| test the internal  items like the board itself.  I only know the machine would
| not speak, even though sighted help at the time indicated the software  was
| loading on the screen.
| Kare
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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

If they are switches, they will be circuit breakers.
I don't know if that means that the box has no fuses.

So: I think that it probably safe for you to feel around but I am not
confident in that guess.

As someone pointed out: if you cause your landlord problems, will they
evict you?  I hate that question but pragmatically you need to judge
the risk/reward ratio.  The rental market is so tight.

Keeping track of what breakers are for what circuits seems to be hard
to do.  I don't know why.  I currently suffer with this in two
different houses.

| From: Karen Lewellen via talk 
| 
| It is a box, which my landlord told me was the fuse one, with scores of
| switches  with no indication of what circuits they control..he has no idea
| himself.
| 
| Speaking personally as someone who has embodied sight loss for several
| decades, this is not how I manage hydro, especially  with other property
| standards violations in place.
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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

There is a reason for being pedantic.  But in this case, the issue has
no consequences.

We are being given an incomplete view of the problem.  That's natural
and to be expected.  But when an inconsistency comes up, it casts
doubt on the description and we want to get rid of the doubt.  Doubt
is where bugs often lie.  Good debugging requires systematically
collapsing doubt.

In this case, you didn't seem to know the meaning of "parallel" and
"serial".  I'm not convinced that you do now.

Serial ports on a computer carry EAE RS232 signals


Parallel ports on a computer carry a very different set of signals,
originally intended for printers

The relevant standard is IEEE 1284.

You really don't want to mix these two up.  Even if computer
manufacturers sometimes used the same connectors for each signal
(lunatics).  If you connect a serial and parallel port together
directly, one or both might burn out.  My guess is that they won't,
but I don't know.

Calling the 25-pin connector on your reader "parallel" is wrong and
could lead to disastrous mistakes.

From what you have said, there is currently no problem caused by this
confusion. I cannot imagine that any of you concerns arose from this
confusion.

| From: Karen Lewellen via talk 
| 
| ...and of course that the words serial to parallel  appear in  the product
| description , for smart marketing is unimportant.
| Is  there a reason why you wish to play dueling dictionaries?
| Someone previously started an entire thread on the reading edge, so some on
| the list have seen the unit   in question.
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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

It is a box, which my landlord told me was the fuse one, with scores of 
switches  with no indication of what circuits they control..he has no idea 
himself.
Speaking personally as someone who has embodied sight loss for several 
decades, this is not how I manage hydro, especially  with other property 
standards violations in place.




On Thu, 13 Jul 2023, Scott Allen wrote:


On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 11:31, Karen Lewellen via talk  wrote:

Oh yes, we have gotten some fuse blows..which my landlord expects me to
manage by sticking my hand into the fuse box.


It is actually a fuse box or is it a breaker panel? If it's a fuse
box, with fuses that have to be removed and replaced, then yes,
someone with impaired vision should not be messing with it.

If it's a breaker panel, feelling for a tripped breaker and resetting
it shouldn't be a problem, as long as there are no other exposed
dangers in the area.

--
Scott


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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

As shared previously, the city is investigating, much about the layout 
violates property  standards, they will be here on Monday.




On Thu, 13 Jul 2023, Scott Allen wrote:


On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 10:56, Karen Lewellen via talk  wrote:

for example the fridge is on an outlet with other  items


The Canadian and Ontario electrical codes require a fridge to have its
own dedicated circuit. (Actually, you're allowed to have an additional
outlet above the fridge location, on the same circuit, for a 120V AC
electric clock, which isn't commonly used or provided these days.) If
there are other things on the fridge circuit, you should remove them
if it's under your control. If these other items aren't under your
control, you should inform your landlord that it's a violation of the
electrical code.

If you're concerned about surges and brownouts caused by poor wiring,
overloaded circuits, heavy loads being switched on or off, or even
lightning, putting a UPS on the equipment you'd like to protect is a
good idea, as has been previously discussed.

--
Scott


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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 2023-07-13 12:26, Scott Allen via talk wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 10:56, Karen Lewellen via talk  wrote:

for example the fridge is on an outlet with other  items

The Canadian and Ontario electrical codes require a fridge to have its
own dedicated circuit. (Actually, you're allowed to have an additional
outlet above the fridge location, on the same circuit, for a 120V AC
electric clock, which isn't commonly used or provided these days.) If
there are other things on the fridge circuit, you should remove them
if it's under your control. If these other items aren't under your
control, you should inform your landlord that it's a violation of the
electrical code.



The electrical code generally will allow wiring that met the code when 
it was installed to stay.


That being said it is likely that the work that was done to build an 
apartment was done while a more current electrical code was in effect.


So you could report the violation but that would not endear you to your 
landlord and possibly not end well for either of you.


--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (647)478-6285
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Scott Allen via talk]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 11:31, Karen Lewellen via talk  wrote:
> Oh yes, we have gotten some fuse blows..which my landlord expects me to
> manage by sticking my hand into the fuse box.

It is actually a fuse box or is it a breaker panel? If it's a fuse
box, with fuses that have to be removed and replaced, then yes,
someone with impaired vision should not be messing with it.

If it's a breaker panel, feelling for a tripped breaker and resetting
it shouldn't be a problem, as long as there are no other exposed
dangers in the area.

-- 
Scott
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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Scott Allen via talk]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 10:56, Karen Lewellen via talk  wrote:
> for example the fridge is on an outlet with other  items

The Canadian and Ontario electrical codes require a fridge to have its
own dedicated circuit. (Actually, you're allowed to have an additional
outlet above the fridge location, on the same circuit, for a 120V AC
electric clock, which isn't commonly used or provided these days.) If
there are other things on the fridge circuit, you should remove them
if it's under your control. If these other items aren't under your
control, you should inform your landlord that it's a violation of the
electrical code.

If you're concerned about surges and brownouts caused by poor wiring,
overloaded circuits, heavy loads being switched on or off, or even
lightning, putting a UPS on the equipment you'd like to protect is a
good idea, as has been previously discussed.

-- 
Scott
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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

Oh yes, we have gotten some fuse blows..which my landlord expects me to 
manage by sticking my hand into the fuse box.
No labels, and that I might have an issue seeing them seems not to matter 
here.




On Thu, 13 Jul 2023, Don Tai wrote:


Fridges don't usually damage electronic equipment. I'm in a 70s build
detached house and my fridge is also on a circuit with other things. If the
circuit is overdrawn it will trip the fuse. When the fridge is initially
starting up the compressor my lights will momentarily dim.

Most power surges that I've heard that damage electronic equipment are from
lightning strikes.

Don

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 10:56, Karen Lewellen via talk 
wrote:


My explanation was not clear.
I believe the serge damaged the port  not the cable, which is why I am
seeking software to test the integrity of internal things like the
motherboard.
My apartment is the upper basement of a house, where hydro is a part of my
rent.
However outlets on this floor seem to share circuits with other things
both
on this floor and likely in the rest of the house which may not be wired
well.  for example the fridge is on an outlet with other  items, so, at
least according to those who have already investigated a slight surge or
feedback may be being sent.
I suspect one of my older mac laptops has paid the price, my stereo which
was  just refurbished will  stop, if something elsewhere int the house is
turned on those kinds of things.  Have to run extensions because the
outlets are all under the radiators etc.
The thing is though I cannot be sure  just what is damaged, without a tool
to test the internal  items like the board itself.  I only know the
machine
would not speak, even though sighted help at the time indicated the
software  was loading on the screen.
Kare



On Thu, 13 Jul 2023, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:


| From: Karen Lewellen via talk 

| When the issue started, it turned out that the machine was working,

but the

| port had stopped.

Correctly diagnosing a problem is often the first 90% of fixing it.
It often isn't easy.  (Often it is easy, but we don't remember those
events.)

| However the real issue,  how my landlord manages hydro in my

apartment, means

| that the issue as it did last night can start again.

How does your landlord manage hydro?

It is unlikely that a hydro problem will damage a serial cable.  I
think that a surge powerful enough to melt copper would first fry the
electronics.

Serial cables can be damaged by rabbits, by wheely chairs, by desk
drawers, by excessive flexing and other physical trauma.  The
soldering of the connectors can fail due to mechanical stress
(especially home-made cables).  Pins can get bent and even break.
Over the years, contact oxidization can happen.

<

http://melslilzoo.blogspot.com/2016/09/rabbit-proofing-for-your-indoor-rabbit.html


This contains a picture of a rabbit laying waste to cables on a desk.
My experience is that they find cables on the floor, behind a desk.
Or ones that come too close to their cage.

| Please do not feel you are not providing solutions, because you have

in the

| past just as here.

I'm glad to be corrected.
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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Don Tai via talk]

Fridges don't usually damage electronic equipment. I'm in a 70s build
detached house and my fridge is also on a circuit with other things. If the
circuit is overdrawn it will trip the fuse. When the fridge is initially
starting up the compressor my lights will momentarily dim.

Most power surges that I've heard that damage electronic equipment are from
lightning strikes.

Don

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 10:56, Karen Lewellen via talk 
wrote:

> My explanation was not clear.
> I believe the serge damaged the port  not the cable, which is why I am
> seeking software to test the integrity of internal things like the
> motherboard.
> My apartment is the upper basement of a house, where hydro is a part of my
> rent.
> However outlets on this floor seem to share circuits with other things
> both
> on this floor and likely in the rest of the house which may not be wired
> well.  for example the fridge is on an outlet with other  items, so, at
> least according to those who have already investigated a slight surge or
> feedback may be being sent.
> I suspect one of my older mac laptops has paid the price, my stereo which
> was  just refurbished will  stop, if something elsewhere int the house is
> turned on those kinds of things.  Have to run extensions because the
> outlets are all under the radiators etc.
> The thing is though I cannot be sure  just what is damaged, without a tool
> to test the internal  items like the board itself.  I only know the
> machine
> would not speak, even though sighted help at the time indicated the
> software  was loading on the screen.
> Kare
>
>
>
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2023, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
>
> > | From: Karen Lewellen via talk 
> >
> > | When the issue started, it turned out that the machine was working,
> but the
> > | port had stopped.
> >
> > Correctly diagnosing a problem is often the first 90% of fixing it.
> > It often isn't easy.  (Often it is easy, but we don't remember those
> > events.)
> >
> > | However the real issue,  how my landlord manages hydro in my
> apartment, means
> > | that the issue as it did last night can start again.
> >
> > How does your landlord manage hydro?
> >
> > It is unlikely that a hydro problem will damage a serial cable.  I
> > think that a surge powerful enough to melt copper would first fry the
> > electronics.
> >
> > Serial cables can be damaged by rabbits, by wheely chairs, by desk
> > drawers, by excessive flexing and other physical trauma.  The
> > soldering of the connectors can fail due to mechanical stress
> > (especially home-made cables).  Pins can get bent and even break.
> > Over the years, contact oxidization can happen.
> >
> > <
> http://melslilzoo.blogspot.com/2016/09/rabbit-proofing-for-your-indoor-rabbit.html
> >
> > This contains a picture of a rabbit laying waste to cables on a desk.
> > My experience is that they find cables on the floor, behind a desk.
> > Or ones that come too close to their cage.
> >
> > | Please do not feel you are not providing solutions, because you have
> in the
> > | past just as here.
> >
> > I'm glad to be corrected.
> > ---
> > Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> > Unsubscribe from this mailing list
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

My explanation was not clear.
I believe the serge damaged the port  not the cable, which is why I am 
seeking software to test the integrity of internal things like the 
motherboard.
My apartment is the upper basement of a house, where hydro is a part of my 
rent.
However outlets on this floor seem to share circuits with other things both 
on this floor and likely in the rest of the house which may not be wired 
well.  for example the fridge is on an outlet with other  items, so, at 
least according to those who have already investigated a slight surge or 
feedback may be being sent.
I suspect one of my older mac laptops has paid the price, my stereo which 
was  just refurbished will  stop, if something elsewhere int the house is 
turned on those kinds of things.  Have to run extensions because the 
outlets are all under the radiators etc.
The thing is though I cannot be sure  just what is damaged, without a tool 
to test the internal  items like the board itself.  I only know the machine 
would not speak, even though sighted help at the time indicated the 
software  was loading on the screen.

Kare



On Thu, 13 Jul 2023, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:


| From: Karen Lewellen via talk 

| When the issue started, it turned out that the machine was working, but the
| port had stopped.

Correctly diagnosing a problem is often the first 90% of fixing it.
It often isn't easy.  (Often it is easy, but we don't remember those
events.)

| However the real issue,  how my landlord manages hydro in my apartment, means
| that the issue as it did last night can start again.

How does your landlord manage hydro?

It is unlikely that a hydro problem will damage a serial cable.  I
think that a surge powerful enough to melt copper would first fry the
electronics.

Serial cables can be damaged by rabbits, by wheely chairs, by desk
drawers, by excessive flexing and other physical trauma.  The
soldering of the connectors can fail due to mechanical stress
(especially home-made cables).  Pins can get bent and even break.
Over the years, contact oxidization can happen.


This contains a picture of a rabbit laying waste to cables on a desk.
My experience is that they find cables on the floor, behind a desk.
Or ones that come too close to their cage.

| Please do not feel you are not providing solutions, because you have in the
| past just as here.

I'm glad to be corrected.
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Re: [GTALUG] computer hardware testing tools.

[Karen Lewellen via talk]

I believe the confusion, speaking personally, came from well meaning 
projections of information not focused on my actual question, which was 
and remains, 
for software options that tested the integrity of internal  hardware like 
motherboards and their included  ports.
Given I have bought a suitable cable less than two weeks ago, the 
connectors were never the issue.

Kare



On Wed, 12 Jul 2023, James Knott wrote:


On 2023-07-12 18:18, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 no one spoke of printer cables.
 Serial connectors are 9 pin, parallel cables are 25 pin.  while old style
 printer cables use  25 pin as well, there is no, or not to my personal
 experience a 9 pin connector at all for those printer cables.
 as a side note allot of external speech synthesizer hardware used 25 pin
 connectors. and lpt port allocations as well. 


I thought you mentioned a parallel port in your first message and in a reply 
to me you said "connects via serial port on the computer, to a parallel port 
on the back of the reading edge".  I suspect you got confused because while 
printer ports, on computers, are 25 pin, serial ports, while currently 9 pin, 
used to be 25 pin.  I then mentioned gender, so you could tell one from the 
other by touch.


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