RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Chip Orange via Talk]

I agree with everything you said Tom ... except your concluding paragraph
seems to have kicked the legs out from under your point that better
documentation is helpful, and necessary in this case.  I would like to see
the WE manual significantly enhanced.

I don't see anything wrong with the idea of a volunteer taking over the
production of tutorials.  He/she could create a site (such as a Window-Eyes
wiki or better a media wiki), which lists their tutorials and what's
covered, and links to the audio/video of the tutorial, and allows for
comments on each tutorial.

I did just this with the scripting tutorials, creating my own web site,
until GW offered to host them on their own servers.  I'm not offering to do
this a second time, but I am encouraging Sky or anyone else who feels like
trying it to give it a try; I really knew nothing about producing tutorials
when I did the scripting ones, but I knew that I never would learn unless I
decided to give it a try.

It doesn't have to be a single person either; the AppleVis team is a good
example of how well multiple people can work together to produce useful,
high quality, material.

Chip


-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+lists3717=comcast@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:55 PM
To: wohlg...@gmail.com; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

Jim,

I agree with you on more than one way to do things. I don't think the 
comparison with algebra is quite spot on but the idea is. In something 
like algebra different methods just click better with some people. So 
choice is good. But I often find the single explanations of how to do 
something on our computer is the long way around, i.e. creating a 
shortcut reduces it to one key combination rather than several steps. 
But of course teaching one how to best maximize their productivity 
certainly isn't the responsibility of screen reader developers.

On the other hand I do agree with Sky regarding the writing of manuals. 
Good documentation is in my opinion an art form. I'm not saying that the 
WE manuals are particularly bad, but there is certainly room for 
improvement. When the new manuals were written a lot of material was 
left out or so minimized that the scant explanations really tell the 
user nothing. But of course writing documentation is the last thing most 
developers want to focus on or spend time on. And Sky is right about 
information overload. Patience is often rare and quitting is always 
easier. So it's somewhat of a no win situation.

Regards,
Tom


On 8/30/2016 9:37 PM, Jim via Talk wrote:
> Sky, I would
>
>  like to respectfully disagree with your suggestion.  When I was taking
> an algebra class in college, my professor would give several methods for
> solving problems.  A lot of students didn't like this.  I happen to be
> in the minority.  I liked it, because if one method didn't work I would
> have another method to try.  For example, some students liked to use
> graphing to solve a problem while I preferred using the quadratic
> formula to solve problems when that was possible. I feel that the more
> ways we have to solve an issue the better off we are.  OK, I understand
> that for a beginner too many ways might be a bit confusing, but as long
> as one isn't overwhelmed with info, having more than one way to solved a
> problem deffinetly works well for me!  Just another suggestion.  Have A
> Good 1! de
> .
> On 30-Aug-16 21:23, Larry Higgins via Talk wrote:
>> Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position
>> ?
>>
>> On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:
>>> Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
>>> suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.
>>>
>>> 1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things.
>>> What
>>> that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do
>>> things.
>>> Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
>>> learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.
>>>
>>> 2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand
>>> language. It
>>> should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up
>>> Microsoft
>>> word, do the following.
>>>
>>> 1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the
>>> bottom
>>> left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.
>>>
>>> 2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
>>> Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as
>>> 2010, 2013,
>>> or 2016.
>>>
>>> 3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft
>>> office
>>> word 2010.
>>>
>>> I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
>>> understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't
>>> sound like
>>> it is written in an easier to understand language for 

RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Mike Bernard via Talk]

I think Steve might be doing the tutorials now. The last Window-Eyes
tutorial I downloaded, was done by him.
Mike

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+mbern6516=aol@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Alison May via Talk
Sent: Monday, September 5, 2016 6:00 PM
To: Steve Nutt ; Window-Eyes Discussion List

Subject: Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?


I feel it helps if people are familiar with using menus before introducing
shortcuts  
Sent from my iPhone by Alison may

> On 5 Sep 2016, at 8:45 pm, Steve Nutt via Talk
 wrote:
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> I agree with you here.  For example, to open a file, I usually teach the
> menu method first, if for example you're in Word, press Alt, then F, then
O
> then open your file.  I then teach Control-O once they are familiar with
> that way of doing it.  So I teach the longest way round first, then
> gradually get the student more efficient.
> 
> By the way, Sky's method of opening Word would not work in Windows XP.  So
I
> always teach a method that will work in all versions of Windows.
> 
> Press the Windows key and R, then type Winword.
> 
> It works everywhere.
> 
> All the best
> 
> Steve
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
> On Behalf Of Jim via Talk
> Sent: 31 August 2016 02:37
> To: Larry Higgins ; Window-Eyes Discussion
List
> 
> Subject: Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?
> 
> Sky, I would
> 
>  like to respectfully disagree with your suggestion.  When I was taking an
> algebra class in college, my professor would give several methods for
> solving problems.  A lot of students didn't like this.  I happen to be in
> the minority.  I liked it, because if one method didn't work I would have
> another method to try.  For example, some students liked to use graphing
to
> solve a problem while I preferred using the quadratic formula to solve
> problems when that was possible. I feel that the more ways we have to
solve
> an issue the better off we are.  OK, I understand that for a beginner too
> many ways might be a bit confusing, but as long as one isn't overwhelmed
> with info, having more than one way to solved a problem deffinetly works
> well for me!  Just another suggestion.  Have A Good 1! de .
>> On 30-Aug-16 21:23, Larry Higgins via Talk wrote:
>> Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position
>> ?
>> 
>>> On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:
>>> Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
>>> suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.
>>> 
>>> 1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things. 
>>> What
>>> that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do 
>>> things.
>>> Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
>>> learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.
>>> 
>>> 2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand 
>>> language. It
>>> should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up 
>>> Microsoft
>>> word, do the following.
>>> 
>>> 1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the 
>>> bottom
>>> left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.
>>> 
>>> 2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
>>> Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as 
>>> 2010, 2013,
>>> or 2016.
>>> 
>>> 3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft 
>>> office
>>> word 2010.
>>> 
>>> I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
>>> understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't 
>>> sound like
>>> it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
>>> To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
>>> Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?
>>> 
>>> Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone? 
>>> .would
>>> anybody know?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Charlie Short
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the 
>>> author
>>> and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>> 
>>> For membership options, visit
>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/skyt%40shaw.ca
> 
>>> 
>>> .
>>> For subscription options, visit
>>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>>> List archives can be found at
>>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>>> 
>>> 

RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Steve Nutt via Talk]

Hi Jim,

I agree with you here.  For example, to open a file, I usually teach the
menu method first, if for example you're in Word, press Alt, then F, then O
then open your file.  I then teach Control-O once they are familiar with
that way of doing it.  So I teach the longest way round first, then
gradually get the student more efficient.

By the way, Sky's method of opening Word would not work in Windows XP.  So I
always teach a method that will work in all versions of Windows.

Press the Windows key and R, then type Winword.

It works everywhere.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Jim via Talk
Sent: 31 August 2016 02:37
To: Larry Higgins ; Window-Eyes Discussion List

Subject: Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

Sky, I would

  like to respectfully disagree with your suggestion.  When I was taking an
algebra class in college, my professor would give several methods for
solving problems.  A lot of students didn't like this.  I happen to be in
the minority.  I liked it, because if one method didn't work I would have
another method to try.  For example, some students liked to use graphing to
solve a problem while I preferred using the quadratic formula to solve
problems when that was possible. I feel that the more ways we have to solve
an issue the better off we are.  OK, I understand that for a beginner too
many ways might be a bit confusing, but as long as one isn't overwhelmed
with info, having more than one way to solved a problem deffinetly works
well for me!  Just another suggestion.  Have A Good 1! de .
On 30-Aug-16 21:23, Larry Higgins via Talk wrote:
> Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position
> ?
>
> On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:
>> Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
>> suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.
>>
>> 1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things. 
>> What
>> that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do 
>> things.
>> Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
>> learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.
>>
>> 2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand 
>> language. It
>> should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up 
>> Microsoft
>> word, do the following.
>>
>> 1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the 
>> bottom
>> left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.
>>
>> 2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
>> Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as 
>> 2010, 2013,
>> or 2016.
>>
>> 3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft 
>> office
>> word 2010.
>>
>> I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
>> understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't 
>> sound like
>> it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
>> Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
>> To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
>> Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?
>>
>> Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone? 
>> .would
>> anybody know?
>>
>>
>> Charlie Short
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the 
>> author
>> and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>
>> For membership options, visit
>>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/skyt%40shaw.ca

>>
>> .
>> For subscription options, visit
>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>> List archives can be found at
>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>>
>> ___
>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the 
>> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>
>> For membership options, visit 
>>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/larryhiggins22
%40comcast.net.
>> For subscription options, visit 
>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>> List archives can be found at 
>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>>
> ___
> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the 
> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>
> For membership options, visit 
>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/wohlggie%40gma
il.com.
> For subscription options, visit 
> 

Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Kevin Huber via Talk]

Hi:
Being a trainer of access technology, I feel qualified to put in my
two cents worth on this discussion, but since the penny is no longer
produced in Canada, I will have to round it off to five cents. :)
You may keep the change.  :)
I have been a trainer of Window-eyes and other blindness products
since the DOS days, and I have had success showing my clients one way
of performing the tasks that I was training them to do.  As they would
get more advanced, I would show them alternative methods.   Sometimes,
a client would discover another way to perform that task, and I am
happy with that, because that means that he/she understands the
process and is willing to experiment.

I have to say though, that Steve is in a different position than those
of us who do one on one training, because he is essentially speaking
to a multitude of people who arde using all types of desktops or
laptops, and all operating systems from Windows 7 to Windows 10,
whereas people such as myself and several other people on this list
are face to face with one indivual with one computer using one
operating system, and we can therefore determine the easiest and most
direct way for him or her to perform a given task.
Kevin Huber


On 8/30/16, Larry Higgins via Talk  wrote:
> Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position
> ?
>
> On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:
>> Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
>> suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.
>>
>> 1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things. What
>> that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do
>> things.
>> Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
>> learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.
>>
>> 2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand language.
>> It
>> should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up
>> Microsoft
>> word, do the following.
>>
>> 1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the
>> bottom
>> left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.
>>
>> 2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
>> Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as 2010,
>> 2013,
>> or 2016.
>>
>> 3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft
>> office
>> word 2010.
>>
>> I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
>> understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't sound
>> like
>> it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
>> Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
>> To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
>> Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?
>>
>> Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?
>> .would
>> anybody know?
>>
>>
>> Charlie Short
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the
>> author
>> and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>
>> For membership options, visit
>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/skyt%40shaw.ca
>> .
>> For subscription options, visit
>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>> List archives can be found at
>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>>
>> ___
>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the
>> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>
>> For membership options, visit
>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/larryhiggins22%40comcast.net.
>> For subscription options, visit
>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>> List archives can be found at
>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>>
> ___
> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author
> and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>
> For membership options, visit
> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/huber.kevin7%40gmail.com.
> For subscription options, visit
> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
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>
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RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Rod Hutton via Talk]

Hi Alison,

Regarding iTunes, the current version has major accessibility issues which
Apple needs to address.  I decided to downgrade to v. 12.1 myself, and so it
is very easy to navigate now.

Hth,

Rod

-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf
Of CJ  MAY via Talk
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 6:37 AM
To: 'Martin Brown' ; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'

Subject: RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

I too am sorry to see Mark go. In truth we would really benefit from some of
the tutorials being updated, i.e. I would very much like a tutorial on using
Windows 10 with Window-eyes and an update on using Window-eyes with iTunes.

 

Alison

 

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RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[CJ MAY via Talk]

I've been a Window-eyes user ever since I converted from DOS but have never
read the manual!

I think that if I was going to recommend anything, then it would be more
tutorials on various topics but much shorter. So, for example, rather than
having one tutorial on using Window-eyes with Windows 10, I'd have a series
of short tutorials on various aspects.

 

Alison

 

 

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RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[CJ MAY via Talk]

I too am sorry to see Mark go. In truth we would really benefit from some of
the tutorials being updated, i.e. I would very much like a tutorial on using
Windows 10 with Window-eyes and an update on using Window-eyes with iTunes.

 

Alison

 

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RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Martin Brown via Talk]

Like many others on the list, I am sorry to see Mark go. He is a very
knowledgeable and helpful person. Will he be replaced? I have my doubts.
Rather, it might well be the first move in a decline of further development
of Window-Eyes in the new corporate environment we find ourselves in. Hope
I'm wrong.
Martin  

-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+mbrown.brown4=gmail@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 1:15 AM
To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone? .would
anybody know?


Charlie Short


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Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Larry Higgins via Talk]

Sorry Jim, I was just making an off-handed joke with Sky. Probably 
should have been a bit more thoughtful and considerate before firing it 
off.


I tend to agree with your sentiments when it comes to teaching one 
either how to use WE, but especially in how to make the best use of the 
Windows interface. More choices, more better .


Bad grammar?, my bad.

Larry



On 8/30/2016 8:37 PM, Jim wrote:

Sky, I would

 like to respectfully disagree with your suggestion.  When I was taking
an algebra class in college, my professor would give several methods for
solving problems.  A lot of students didn't like this.  I happen to be
in the minority.  I liked it, because if one method didn't work I would
have another method to try.  For example, some students liked to use
graphing to solve a problem while I preferred using the quadratic
formula to solve problems when that was possible. I feel that the more
ways we have to solve an issue the better off we are.  OK, I understand
that for a beginner too many ways might be a bit confusing, but as long
as one isn't overwhelmed with info, having more than one way to solved a
problem deffinetly works well for me!  Just another suggestion.  Have A
Good 1! de
.
On 30-Aug-16 21:23, Larry Higgins via Talk wrote:

Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position
?

On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:

Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.

1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things.
What
that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do
things.
Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.

2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand
language. It
should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up
Microsoft
word, do the following.

1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the
bottom
left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.

2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as
2010, 2013,
or 2016.

3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft
office
word 2010.

I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't
sound like
it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?
.would
anybody know?


Charlie Short


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Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Dennis Long via Talk]

there is nothing wrong the manuals.
- Original Message - 
From: "Paulette Vickery via Talk" 
To: "'Sky Mundell'" ; "'Window-Eyes Discussion List'" 


Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 11:53 PM
Subject: RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?



Why not have someone who is good at writing and who understands how the
program works, write the manuals. That way when telling the several ways 
to

accomplish the same task, they could break the process down into separate
small modules; such as Ways To Open Microsoft Word, Opening Word Way one,
Opening Word Way Two, etc.

I also agree that writing the manual in layman's language rather than for
people who fully understand computers is best. If you can break 
information

about something down so that a 6 year old can understand what is being
explained, then everyone will be able to understand all explanations; 
plus,

language can always be modified once it is written out fully.

Paulette

-Original Message-
From: Talk 
[mailto:talk-bounces+paulette=evickery@lists.window-eyes.com]

On Behalf Of Sky Mundell via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:57 PM
To: wohlg...@gmail.com; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

That's ok Jim, your forgiven

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Jim via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:40 PM
To: Larry Higgins; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

My appologies to Sky.  I should have addressed the last message to
Larry-I believe. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
THANKS! de

.


On 30-Aug-16 21:23, Larry Higgins via Talk wrote:

Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position
?

On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:

Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.

1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things.
What
that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do
things.
Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.

2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand
language. It
should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up
Microsoft
word, do the following.

1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the
bottom
left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.

2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as
2010, 2013,
or 2016.

3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft
office
word 2010.

I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't
sound like
it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?
.would
anybody know?


Charlie Short


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RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Paulette Vickery via Talk]

Why not have someone who is good at writing and who understands how the
program works, write the manuals. That way when telling the several ways to
accomplish the same task, they could break the process down into separate
small modules; such as Ways To Open Microsoft Word, Opening Word Way one,
Opening Word Way Two, etc.

I also agree that writing the manual in layman's language rather than for
people who fully understand computers is best. If you can break information
about something down so that a 6 year old can understand what is being
explained, then everyone will be able to understand all explanations; plus,
language can always be modified once it is written out fully.

Paulette

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+paulette=evickery@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Sky Mundell via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:57 PM
To: wohlg...@gmail.com; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

That's ok Jim, your forgiven

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Jim via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:40 PM
To: Larry Higgins; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

My appologies to Sky.  I should have addressed the last message to 
Larry-I believe. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.  
THANKS! de

.


On 30-Aug-16 21:23, Larry Higgins via Talk wrote:
> Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position 
> ?
>
> On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:
>> Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
>> suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.
>>
>> 1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things. 
>> What
>> that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do 
>> things.
>> Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
>> learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.
>>
>> 2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand 
>> language. It
>> should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up 
>> Microsoft
>> word, do the following.
>>
>> 1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the 
>> bottom
>> left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.
>>
>> 2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
>> Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as 
>> 2010, 2013,
>> or 2016.
>>
>> 3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft 
>> office
>> word 2010.
>>
>> I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
>> understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't 
>> sound like
>> it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
>> Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
>> To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
>> Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?
>>
>> Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone? 
>> .would
>> anybody know?
>>
>>
>> Charlie Short
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the 
>> author
>> and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>
>> For membership options, visit
>>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/skyt%40shaw.ca

>>
>> .
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>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>>
>> ___
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>> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>
>> For membership options, visit 
>>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/larryhiggins22
%40comcast.net.
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>>
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>
> For membership options, visit 
>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/wohlggie%40gma
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RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Sky Mundell via Talk]

That's ok Jim, your forgiven

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Jim via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:40 PM
To: Larry Higgins; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

My appologies to Sky.  I should have addressed the last message to 
Larry-I believe. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.  
THANKS! de

.


On 30-Aug-16 21:23, Larry Higgins via Talk wrote:
> Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position 
> ?
>
> On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:
>> Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
>> suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.
>>
>> 1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things. 
>> What
>> that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do 
>> things.
>> Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
>> learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.
>>
>> 2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand 
>> language. It
>> should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up 
>> Microsoft
>> word, do the following.
>>
>> 1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the 
>> bottom
>> left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.
>>
>> 2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
>> Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as 
>> 2010, 2013,
>> or 2016.
>>
>> 3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft 
>> office
>> word 2010.
>>
>> I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
>> understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't 
>> sound like
>> it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
>> Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
>> To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
>> Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?
>>
>> Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone? 
>> .would
>> anybody know?
>>
>>
>> Charlie Short
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the 
>> author
>> and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>
>> For membership options, visit
>>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/skyt%40shaw.ca

>>
>> .
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>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
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>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>>
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>> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>
>> For membership options, visit 
>>
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/larryhiggins22
%40comcast.net.
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>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
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>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>>
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> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>
> For membership options, visit 
>
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il.com.
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Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Tom Kingston via Talk]

Jim,

I agree with you on more than one way to do things. I don't think the 
comparison with algebra is quite spot on but the idea is. In something 
like algebra different methods just click better with some people. So 
choice is good. But I often find the single explanations of how to do 
something on our computer is the long way around, i.e. creating a 
shortcut reduces it to one key combination rather than several steps. 
But of course teaching one how to best maximize their productivity 
certainly isn't the responsibility of screen reader developers.


On the other hand I do agree with Sky regarding the writing of manuals. 
Good documentation is in my opinion an art form. I'm not saying that the 
WE manuals are particularly bad, but there is certainly room for 
improvement. When the new manuals were written a lot of material was 
left out or so minimized that the scant explanations really tell the 
user nothing. But of course writing documentation is the last thing most 
developers want to focus on or spend time on. And Sky is right about 
information overload. Patience is often rare and quitting is always 
easier. So it's somewhat of a no win situation.


Regards,
Tom


On 8/30/2016 9:37 PM, Jim via Talk wrote:

Sky, I would

 like to respectfully disagree with your suggestion.  When I was taking
an algebra class in college, my professor would give several methods for
solving problems.  A lot of students didn't like this.  I happen to be
in the minority.  I liked it, because if one method didn't work I would
have another method to try.  For example, some students liked to use
graphing to solve a problem while I preferred using the quadratic
formula to solve problems when that was possible. I feel that the more
ways we have to solve an issue the better off we are.  OK, I understand
that for a beginner too many ways might be a bit confusing, but as long
as one isn't overwhelmed with info, having more than one way to solved a
problem deffinetly works well for me!  Just another suggestion.  Have A
Good 1! de
.
On 30-Aug-16 21:23, Larry Higgins via Talk wrote:

Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position
?

On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:

Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.

1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things.
What
that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do
things.
Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.

2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand
language. It
should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up
Microsoft
word, do the following.

1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the
bottom
left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.

2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as
2010, 2013,
or 2016.

3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft
office
word 2010.

I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't
sound like
it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?
.would
anybody know?


Charlie Short


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Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Jim via Talk]

Sky, I would

 like to respectfully disagree with your suggestion.  When I was taking 
an algebra class in college, my professor would give several methods for 
solving problems.  A lot of students didn't like this.  I happen to be 
in the minority.  I liked it, because if one method didn't work I would 
have another method to try.  For example, some students liked to use 
graphing to solve a problem while I preferred using the quadratic 
formula to solve problems when that was possible. I feel that the more 
ways we have to solve an issue the better off we are.  OK, I understand 
that for a beginner too many ways might be a bit confusing, but as long 
as one isn't overwhelmed with info, having more than one way to solved a 
problem deffinetly works well for me!  Just another suggestion.  Have A 
Good 1! de

.
On 30-Aug-16 21:23, Larry Higgins via Talk wrote:
Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position 
?


On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:

Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.

1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things. 
What
that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do 
things.

Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.

2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand 
language. It
should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up 
Microsoft

word, do the following.

1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the 
bottom

left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.

2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as 
2010, 2013,

or 2016.

3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft 
office

word 2010.

I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't 
sound like

it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone? 
.would

anybody know?


Charlie Short


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Re: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Larry Higgins via Talk]

Sorry Sky, but I just can't resist. Are you applying for the position 
?


On 8/30/2016 7:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:

Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.

1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things. What
that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do things.
Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.

2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand language. It
should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up Microsoft
word, do the following.

1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the bottom
left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.

2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as 2010, 2013,
or 2016.

3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft office
word 2010.

I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't sound like
it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone? .would
anybody know?


Charlie Short


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RE: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

[Sky Mundell via Talk]

Well, Steven Klower does the Window-Eyes tutorials, but I have a few
suggestions for how the tutorials could be improved.

1. When training clients, I always stick to one way of doing things. What
that means, is I only do one method of showing the clents how to do things.
Showing multiple ways can often clutter up the mind of the person who is
learning any screen reader, such as Window-Eyes.

2. The tutorials need to be presented in a easier-to-understand language. It
should provide steps for accomplishing things, such as, to open up Microsoft
word, do the following.

1. press the windows logo key. The windows logo key is located on the bottom
left side of the keyboard, next to the left control key.

2. Type in the words word to open up Microsoft word.   Once you do that,
Window-Eyes will say your version number of office word, such as 2010, 2013,
or 2016.

3. After typing in the words word, press enter to open up Microsoft office
word 2010.

I would also suggest that the manual be re-written in an easier to
understand language. I have read the manual and to me it doesn't sound like
it is written in an easier to understand language for some people.
-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Short via Talk
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 5:15 PM
To: talk@lists.window-eyes.com
Subject: Who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone?

Hello, who's going to take over the tutorials now that Mark is gone? .would
anybody know?


Charlie Short


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