Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam

[Serge Wroclawski]

It depends on which contributors are which.

We have a few contributors who are the shop owners and they make a single
edit, adding their stores.

But we also have people who have taken a list of stores and either:

1. Plugged the store into Google to find the location
2. Plugged the address into Nominatim to find the location

The reason I know the first scenario is true is that there was a post about
it on Reddit, with the poster putting it on the subreddit r/openstreetmap
(which I moderate).

I began to investigate the issue, but (frankly) became overwhelmed with the
amount of data, and the hostility I received from some (not a majority of)
coinmappers.

I don't mind if a person comes in, makes an imperfect edit of their own
store and then leaves, but working off a list is an import, and what they
did was to circumvent the import process.

- Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam

[Jo]

So these are not even the "shop owners" themselves which are spamming us
with useless information?

Jo


2013/12/4 Serge Wroclawski 

> Steve,
>
> You're right, in theory, but there's a bunch that Frederik has omitted.
>
> First, the coinmap people have not merely been documenting places, but
> doing whole copying from map to map. They even had a video on how to do it,
> but that's gone.
>
> Secondly, they don't verify the information they add. They are working off
> lists of places which they simply enter into OSM.
>
> Thirdly, the problem with this view on mapping "Someone will fix it later"
> is that it shift responsibility downward. OSM is predicated on doing the
> best you can do at the moment. It may not be perfect, but we've seen a
> number of import efforts (coinmap included) which use bad practices for
> finding and placing locations, or using bad tags.
>
> Put another way- this is an import that was done without the import
> process, and if it had gone through the process, we would have judged it
> technically lacking (and possibly not usable license-wise).
>
> - Serge
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:55 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>>
>>> However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to
>>> improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on
>>>
>>  >the "coinmap", a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses.
>>
>> I don't think we should worry about people's motivations. What's the
>> problem here? That there are business POIs in OSM that are missing tags. It
>> doesn't sound all that different to me from any other data quality problem.
>> Either we fix the missing tags (if possible), or delete them as junk. And
>> if the business in question doesn't deserve a mention in OSM (eg, a mail
>> order place with no shop front), again, just delete it.
>>
>> No?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam

[Serge Wroclawski]

Steve,

You're right, in theory, but there's a bunch that Frederik has omitted.

First, the coinmap people have not merely been documenting places, but
doing whole copying from map to map. They even had a video on how to do it,
but that's gone.

Secondly, they don't verify the information they add. They are working off
lists of places which they simply enter into OSM.

Thirdly, the problem with this view on mapping "Someone will fix it later"
is that it shift responsibility downward. OSM is predicated on doing the
best you can do at the moment. It may not be perfect, but we've seen a
number of import efforts (coinmap included) which use bad practices for
finding and placing locations, or using bad tags.

Put another way- this is an import that was done without the import
process, and if it had gone through the process, we would have judged it
technically lacking (and possibly not usable license-wise).

- Serge


On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:55 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>
>> However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to
>> improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on
>>
>  >the "coinmap", a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses.
>
> I don't think we should worry about people's motivations. What's the
> problem here? That there are business POIs in OSM that are missing tags. It
> doesn't sound all that different to me from any other data quality problem.
> Either we fix the missing tags (if possible), or delete them as junk. And
> if the business in question doesn't deserve a mention in OSM (eg, a mail
> order place with no shop front), again, just delete it.
>
> No?
>
> Steve
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam

[Andrew Guertin]

On 12/03/2013 09:55 PM, Steve Bennett wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
>> However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to
>> improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on
>> the "coinmap", a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses.
> 
> I don't think we should worry about people's motivations. What's the
> problem here? That there are business POIs in OSM that are missing tags. It
> doesn't sound all that different to me from any other data quality problem.
> Either we fix the missing tags (if possible), or delete them as junk. And
> if the business in question doesn't deserve a mention in OSM (eg, a mail
> order place with no shop front), again, just delete it.
> 
> No?
> 
> Steve

There seem to be people already interested in improving the data quality
of these new POIs. For example, I noticed this user in my area
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Dafmaster/history -- new as of late
last month, with ~100 edits adding addresses, phone numbers, websites,
yelp links, and other tags as appropriate. I've seen other users doing
quality control too--some new, some with thousands of OSM edits over 5+
years. And many of the nodes seem to be originally contributed by
long-time mappers, and well-tagged to begin with.

--Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam

[Steve Bennett]

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> There are many businesses where you can't go and buy something, but still
> they should be in OSM. Think of a car manufacturer, you can't go there and
> buy a car.
>

Yeah but the difference is a manufacturing plant has a big physical
presence that is worth indicating on a map. A person can see it, wonder
what it is, and look at the map. And, more pragmatically, factories don't
come and go as quickly as businesses run on residential premises.

There's no way OSM really wants to be a database of every single registered
(or even unregistered!) business, surely?

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam

[Steve Bennett]

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to
> improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on
>
 >the "coinmap", a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses.

I don't think we should worry about people's motivations. What's the
problem here? That there are business POIs in OSM that are missing tags. It
doesn't sound all that different to me from any other data quality problem.
Either we fix the missing tags (if possible), or delete them as junk. And
if the business in question doesn't deserve a mention in OSM (eg, a mail
order place with no shop front), again, just delete it.

No?

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/12/4 Frederik Ramm 

> I'm wary of such POIs where the location may be correct but of no
> interest. If they are a mail-order firm or a spiritual movement and
> place a POI at their registered address for the sole purpose of getting
> their name and telephone number and Facebook URL and Google+ URL and
> E-Mail and web site into some kind of dictionary, but if you went to the
> actual location you'd not be able to conduct any business or even find
> more than a mailbox, then I'd say they shouldn't have a place in OSM.
>
> I agree it's a grey area - there might be a "restaurant" that *only*
> does delivery and if you go there you can't buy anything.
>


There are many businesses where you can't go and buy something, but still
they should be in OSM. Think of a car manufacturer, you can't go there and
buy a car. Or stuff like this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/235518330

I agree with Jaakko, if there is an office or it is their official address,
this is not "spam". Yes, the information is not complete and not as
detailed and structured as an experienced mapper would enter it, but have a
look at your second example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2523904649

  
  
  
  
  http://www.noospherecomputers.com"/>

besides the bitcoin tag there is a name, a website, a phone number and a
human readable note. Clicking on the website you'll also get an adress
(housenumber).




Still, knowing
> the restaurant is next door might be an interesting information for you
> if you want food delivered hot. But why should our geo-database have the
> location of a desk from which someone coordinates food deliveries for
> people who order something on his web page, a location that is
> completely irrelevant to the business conducted and just serves as an
> anchor point for storing addresses and contact information?
>


it is not completely irrelevant for a geographic database to see where
businesses are located, even if they do not serve as POIs to navigate to.



>
> > Anyways. I think that having more people contribute - including people
> > whose main (primary) interest is to add only their business is good
>
> Reason I was concerned in this case is that I had the impression that
> what these people saw as "adding their business to Coinmap" was not
> really the same as what we see as "adding a business to OpenStreetMap",
> but piggy-backed process wise.
>


I hope with the time they will find out that putting more detailed
structured information will increase their visibility. One reason for not
setting a detailed shop or office value might also be that often we don't
have something fitting at hand. E.g. there are currently some poor 22
shop=computer_repair in the osm globe.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam

[Jason Remillard]

Hi,

I put on a comment on the u-tube video asking them to add instructions
on how to enter addresses.

The coinmap website uses OSM's other tags like shop/sport/etc for
different icons. They are not encouraging tagless POI's. I suspect
that the person running the coinmap website does not want entities on
the map that don't have any geographics significance either.

There is nothing more going on here other than normal new user stuff
combined with a renderer that is prioritizing getting bitcoins tags
into OSM.

Jason.


On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
>we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be
> added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely
> adding a business to the map.
>
> This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the
> map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs.
>
> However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to
> improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on
> the "coinmap", a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses.
>
> It seems that a name and "payment:bitcoin=yes" is sufficient for that
> site, with an optional advertising slug in the "note" tag. But for us,
> not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second
> because many of these businesses seem to be not really "on the ground"
> (but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere),
> third because they often don't contain even minimal information that
> would make them useful to us. I've collected these objects created in
> the past couple of days here
>
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/bitcoin.osc
>
> A few examples:
>
>  uid="1795331" user="The Tobacco Seed Company" changeset="18716456"
> lat="51.5442768" lon="0.7236584">
>   
>   
>   http://www.tobaccoseed.co.uk"/>
> 
>
> This is blatant advertising for a web site. It doesn't even say what
> kind of shop this is supposed to be.
>
>  uid="1798995" user="mkondratov" changeset="18776505" lat="41.4183069"
> lon="-81.694649">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.noospherecomputers.com"/>
> 
>
> This, too, is little more than a name on our map. We don't usually
> include the field of business in the name - this should have been
> expressed through a proper "shop" tag.
>
>  uid="1801179" user="79s VOF" changeset="18818705" lat="52.372218"
> lon="4.8653634">
>   
>   
>   https://store.79s.co"/>
> 
>
> Spam.
>
>  uid="1809524" user="webhostpl" changeset="18964238" lat="50.0727563"
> lon="19.8938861">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.webhost.pl"/>
> 
>
> Broken tagging (quite frequent).
>
>  uid="1651798" user="oldenburg69" changeset="18998877" lat="36.2026532"
> lon="-115.0597195">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.hannigfabworks.com/"/>
> 
>
> Tagging is ok as far as the address node is concerned, but without a
> shop tag the rest is kind of useless, and the "note" tag is not for your
> marketing tagline.
>
>  uid="1817212" user="l337 PLace" changeset="19091714" lat="60.1491622"
> lon="24.6551426">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.1337place.com"/>
> 
>
> Whatever BeagleBone Black is, this house is certeinly not called
> "1337Place"...
>
> timestamp="2013-12-03T21:42:21Z" user="EcoBox" uid="1828695"
> lat="29.4561384" lon="-98.4193203">
>   
>   
>
>
> What shall I say. The changeset comment contained something about
> accepting bitcoin.
>
> This is all rather undesirable - people adding their business to OSM
> would be great, but advertising isn't, and we'd prefer if they actually
> used tagging that is used in OSM, rather than simply rushing in a name
> tag and a location because that's enough to get listed on some third
> party web site.
>
> I delete the ones I encounter when they're outright spam but I'm shying
> away from suggesting some kind of automated cleaning job because I'm not
> clear on what the minimum tagging should be on any node. We don't
> currently have any such rules but seeing people dumping things into our
> database that we can't use just so they're shown on coinmap seems a bit
> strange.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
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>
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[OSM-talk] The new OpenStreetMap.org design

[John Firebaugh]

This past weekend, the OpenStreetMap.org front page launched with a
new design. This was a big step for a site whose design hasn't changed
much in 7 years [1]. The goal of the redesign was to make the site
more inviting for newcomers, easier and more efficient for veterans,
to clean it up and refresh its looks, and to resolve a number of
longstanding usability issues and bugs.

See for yourself - before Friday last week:

http://cl.ly/image/1P3f2N2z0b0p

Since Friday last week:

http://cl.ly/image/350W0v023A0u

Concretely, here are the improvements we implemented:

- A better experience for new contributors. There is now a concise
explanation of what OSM is and an invitation to get involved that
isn't lost in the noise of other elements competing for attention.
Secondarily, the new help and about pages provide a dedicated place to
expand on that initial introduction -- something that simply can't be
done effectively in the confines of a sidebar.
- A better experience for veterans. There's now more space for the map
and a sidebar that functions efficiently for the task at hand, whether
it be searching for a location, browsing data, or reviewing changes.
There's no longer a needless distinction between "browsing" a feature
and "viewing it on the map". And navigating between features and
changesets is fluid, fast, and preserves more context.
- A modern look and feel. While there is no doubt design is to some
degree subjective, the fact is that any design communicates a message.
In short, the old design looked dated, haphazard, and uncoordinated.
The new design aims to communicate the fact that the OSM community is
alive, growing, experienced, and competent. One comment on the pull
request said the new design "looks way too 'professional'" for a
community website -- well, I think that's a good thing. :)
- Bug fixes and usability improvements. Most notably, the site works
much better on mobile devices. For other fixes, see the linked issues
at end of the pull request ([5]).

It's noteworthy what we didn't change:

- We didn't add or remove major features
- We didn't change the logo or color scheme
- We didn't change the prominence of key features such as viewing,
editing or browsing changesets
- User profiles, diaries, messaging, and other interior pages have
seen only minimal changes

This work brings to culmination a process that involved multiple talks
and birds of a feather sessions at conferences [2], conversations on
mailing lists [3], several previous design iterations [4], and the
longest pull request in the history of OpenStreetMap [5]. A big thank
you to everyone who's been involved in making this happen. This effort
involved many hands. From my colleagues Saman, Eden and Aaron who laid
out the design and slugged through many lines of code to get the pull
request ready to merge, to Tom Hughes who helped reviewing and got the
pull request ready to launch in one last final push. A big thank you
also to anyone who helped along the way with reviewing, testing and
pointing out issues -- it greatly helped improve the result.

This redesign is a leap forward, but not the end-all be-all. There is
most definitely room for improvement, and constructive feedback and
hands-on help is always welcome. If you'd like to get coding on
OpenStreetMap and you'd like a hand, please hit me up on IRC. If
you're looking to file an issue [6], please follow these steps:

- Describe the problem rather than a particular solution. It is much
easier to communicate if there is a common understanding of the
problem that should be solved.
- Be as specific as possible.
- Search for existing reports.
- Use a good title :)

In the days since the launch on Saturday the openstreetmap-website
issue tracker has been busy with adjustment and polish work. Here's a
run down of key fixes:

- Added a close button to the welcome message for non-logged-in users
- Restored support for bbox and min/max/lon/lat URL parameters
- Fixed opening browse links in a new tab or window
- Fixed cosmetic issues with long tag keys or values
- Fixed errors when clicking on certain search results
- Fixed issues with changeset feeds

Tom, Aaron and I will continue to look at important remaining issues
in the days ahead.

Again, thanks to everyone who helped out with this work. Constructive,
community-driven collaboration is what makes OSM great.

cheers,
John

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20060105000147/http://www.openstreetmap.org/
[2] http://vimeopro.com/openstreetmapus/state-of-the-map-us-2013/video/68093877,
https://vimeo.com/mapbox/review/75978159/984cfdb5af
[3] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-November/068555.html,
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-November/068577.html,
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067564.html,
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067595.html,
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067730.html
[4] https://www.mapbox.co

Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam

[Jaakko Helleranta.com]

Gotcha.
I think we're taking mostly about same things... If there's no office or
shop (or a warehouse or something tangible, PO box not being enough)
there's no space for our in OSM db.

I may have over reacted partly because I've both heard of and dealt with a
number of people who have found it difficult to add their business location
to OSM-talk. And the entries that they've added have often been less or
often more crappy - just like the entries of so many new n00bs'.

It's also good to remember that business names sometimes do contain what
seems to be classifying info (Hotel Astoria, Sydney's Opera house, Catedral
de Managua, etc).

In any case, perhaps I'm just wanting to ask that we try to assume good
faith as much as possible. Our learning curve exists and is doing well,  so
to say.
So, let's try not to scare away new contributors / projects that are
driving new contributors.

Cheers from undermapped Nicaragua where Foursquare has thus far clearly
been much more successful in getting POIs mapped (with decent accuracy)
than OSM (because of a range of things of course),
-Jaakko

--
Sent from my Android device.
On Dec 3, 2013 7:02 PM, "Frederik Ramm"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 03.12.2013 23:50, Jaakko Helleranta.com wrote:
> > And perhaps we should have better documentation /
> > stated policy on adjectives / tone of the description tag?
>
> Clearly anything in there must be verifiable on the ground. "20 years of
> experience" or "satisfaction guaranteed" are hardly ;)
>
> > I would only consider it spam if it doesn't actually exist in reality or
> > perhaps if it is grossly misplaced (to the extent that it is clear that
> > no one even tried to place it right.
>
> I'm wary of such POIs where the location may be correct but of no
> interest. If they are a mail-order firm or a spiritual movement and
> place a POI at their registered address for the sole purpose of getting
> their name and telephone number and Facebook URL and Google+ URL and
> E-Mail and web site into some kind of dictionary, but if you went to the
> actual location you'd not be able to conduct any business or even find
> more than a mailbox, then I'd say they shouldn't have a place in OSM.
>
> I agree it's a grey area - there might be a "restaurant" that *only*
> does delivery and if you go there you can't buy anything. Still, knowing
> the restaurant is next door might be an interesting information for you
> if you want food delivered hot. But why should our geo-database have the
> location of a desk from which someone coordinates food deliveries for
> people who order something on his web page, a location that is
> completely irrelevant to the business conducted and just serves as an
> anchor point for storing addresses and contact information?
>
> > Anyways. I think that having more people contribute - including people
> > whose main (primary) interest is to add only their business is good
>
> Reason I was concerned in this case is that I had the impression that
> what these people saw as "adding their business to Coinmap" was not
> really the same as what we see as "adding a business to OpenStreetMap",
> but piggy-backed process wise.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 03.12.2013 23:50, Jaakko Helleranta.com wrote:
> And perhaps we should have better documentation /
> stated policy on adjectives / tone of the description tag?

Clearly anything in there must be verifiable on the ground. "20 years of
experience" or "satisfaction guaranteed" are hardly ;)

> I would only consider it spam if it doesn't actually exist in reality or
> perhaps if it is grossly misplaced (to the extent that it is clear that
> no one even tried to place it right.

I'm wary of such POIs where the location may be correct but of no
interest. If they are a mail-order firm or a spiritual movement and
place a POI at their registered address for the sole purpose of getting
their name and telephone number and Facebook URL and Google+ URL and
E-Mail and web site into some kind of dictionary, but if you went to the
actual location you'd not be able to conduct any business or even find
more than a mailbox, then I'd say they shouldn't have a place in OSM.

I agree it's a grey area - there might be a "restaurant" that *only*
does delivery and if you go there you can't buy anything. Still, knowing
the restaurant is next door might be an interesting information for you
if you want food delivered hot. But why should our geo-database have the
location of a desk from which someone coordinates food deliveries for
people who order something on his web page, a location that is
completely irrelevant to the business conducted and just serves as an
anchor point for storing addresses and contact information?

> Anyways. I think that having more people contribute - including people
> whose main (primary) interest is to add only their business is good

Reason I was concerned in this case is that I had the impression that
what these people saw as "adding their business to Coinmap" was not
really the same as what we see as "adding a business to OpenStreetMap",
but piggy-backed process wise.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam

[Paul Norman]

> From: Frederik Ramm [mailto:frede...@remote.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 2:11 PM
> To: Talk Openstreetmap
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
> 
> Hi,
> 
>we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be
> added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely
> adding a business to the map.
> 
> This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the
> map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs.
> 
> However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to
> improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on
> the "coinmap", a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses.
> 
> It seems that a name and "payment:bitcoin=yes" is sufficient for that
> site, with an optional advertising slug in the "note" tag. But for us,
> not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second
> because many of these businesses seem to be not really "on the ground"
> (but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere),
> third because they often don't contain even minimal information that
> would make them useful to us. 

Thanks to Frederik for putting the required time together to document
what myself and others have been seeing, primarily from bitcoin edits.

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1G1 shows objects like this via overpass.

Some of the places I've been seeing exist solely as a service within a
private post office, where they may not even have a physical mailbox but
instead have their mail scanned and emailed.

OSM is great for a shop that has a physical presence ("bricks and mortar")
but we're not a general-purpose directory of online-only entities. This
is inherent in the "geo" part of "geodata".


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Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam

[Jason Remillard]

Hi,

This is a good problem to have. The http://coinmap.org/ web site has a
video on how to had POI to OSM. We should ask them to update the
video.

Thanks
Jason.

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
>we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be
> added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely
> adding a business to the map.
>
> This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the
> map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs.
>
> However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to
> improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on
> the "coinmap", a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses.
>
> It seems that a name and "payment:bitcoin=yes" is sufficient for that
> site, with an optional advertising slug in the "note" tag. But for us,
> not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second
> because many of these businesses seem to be not really "on the ground"
> (but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere),
> third because they often don't contain even minimal information that
> would make them useful to us. I've collected these objects created in
> the past couple of days here
>
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/bitcoin.osc
>
> A few examples:
>
>  uid="1795331" user="The Tobacco Seed Company" changeset="18716456"
> lat="51.5442768" lon="0.7236584">
>   
>   
>   http://www.tobaccoseed.co.uk"/>
> 
>
> This is blatant advertising for a web site. It doesn't even say what
> kind of shop this is supposed to be.
>
>  uid="1798995" user="mkondratov" changeset="18776505" lat="41.4183069"
> lon="-81.694649">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.noospherecomputers.com"/>
> 
>
> This, too, is little more than a name on our map. We don't usually
> include the field of business in the name - this should have been
> expressed through a proper "shop" tag.
>
>  uid="1801179" user="79s VOF" changeset="18818705" lat="52.372218"
> lon="4.8653634">
>   
>   
>   https://store.79s.co"/>
> 
>
> Spam.
>
>  uid="1809524" user="webhostpl" changeset="18964238" lat="50.0727563"
> lon="19.8938861">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.webhost.pl"/>
> 
>
> Broken tagging (quite frequent).
>
>  uid="1651798" user="oldenburg69" changeset="18998877" lat="36.2026532"
> lon="-115.0597195">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.hannigfabworks.com/"/>
> 
>
> Tagging is ok as far as the address node is concerned, but without a
> shop tag the rest is kind of useless, and the "note" tag is not for your
> marketing tagline.
>
>  uid="1817212" user="l337 PLace" changeset="19091714" lat="60.1491622"
> lon="24.6551426">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.1337place.com"/>
> 
>
> Whatever BeagleBone Black is, this house is certeinly not called
> "1337Place"...
>
> timestamp="2013-12-03T21:42:21Z" user="EcoBox" uid="1828695"
> lat="29.4561384" lon="-98.4193203">
>   
>   
>
>
> What shall I say. The changeset comment contained something about
> accepting bitcoin.
>
> This is all rather undesirable - people adding their business to OSM
> would be great, but advertising isn't, and we'd prefer if they actually
> used tagging that is used in OSM, rather than simply rushing in a name
> tag and a location because that's enough to get listed on some third
> party web site.
>
> I delete the ones I encounter when they're outright spam but I'm shying
> away from suggesting some kind of automated cleaning job because I'm not
> clear on what the minimum tagging should be on any node. We don't
> currently have any such rules but seeing people dumping things into our
> database that we can't use just so they're shown on coinmap seems a bit
> strange.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam

[Lester Caine]

Frederik Ramm wrote:

I delete the ones I encounter when they're outright spam but I'm shying
away from suggesting some kind of automated cleaning job because I'm not
clear on what the minimum tagging should be on any node. We don't
currently have any such rules but seeing people dumping things into our
database that we can't use just so they're shown on coinmap seems a bit
strange.


A request to 'coinmap' that any information added here must include the type of 
premise, address and postcode? Otherwise they will be deleted as having no 
physical existence? And if they don't oblige then block the bitcoin tag ;)


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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[OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam

[Jaakko Helleranta.com]

Hi Fred and others interested,

I respectfully disagree that the disagree example items would be (blatant)
spam.
They are clearly all missing what I call a "primary (classifying) tag"
(shop=* or office=* most likely for all referenced). And there are some
tagging mistakes too on existing tags. Like using note for what seems to be
more a description (which is possibly a problem of the coin map
documentation?). And perhaps we should have better documentation / stated
policy on adjectives / tone of the description tag?
These hold true.

But spam? I don't think so.

As for mail (/Internet) order shops I'd think that eg
office=mail(/internet)_order_store would always be good - - for their
physical office,  that is.

I would only consider it spam if it doesn't actually exist in reality or
perhaps if it is grossly misplaced (to the extent that it is clear that no
one even tried to place it right.

Overall, I think this is probably more an issue of how we should handle a
growing "low end" of a long tail in OSM contributions. There is no reason
that we could and should not see this as a positive problem /challenge.

Perhaps it could be possible to have a MapRoulette challenge for verifying
all lone nodes + only_name_no_main_tag-objects from contributors that have
only a few change sets in their edit history? (under 10-50?)

Some tools for verifying n00bs' change sets would be great in general (and
I still have no clue of coding so I'm useless for actually developing
them).

This issue also links to previously (from time to time) discussed topic of
how to curate beginners' edits, even have some sort of review system for
beginners' / other selected users' edits.

Anyways. I think that having more people contribute - including people
whose main (primary) interest is to add only their business is good (when
not done in bad faith, which doesn't seem to be the case in your examples).
We just need to figure out how to provide targeted support, quite possibly
better targeted documentation (in this case probably coin map's job) and
how to curate in a targeted manner.

Cheers,
-Jaakko

--
Sent from my Android device.
On Dec 3, 2013 5:11 PM, "Frederik Ramm"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be
> added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely
> adding a business to the map.
>
> This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the
> map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs.
>
> However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to
> improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on
> the "coinmap", a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses.
>
> It seems that a name and "payment:bitcoin=yes" is sufficient for that
> site, with an optional advertising slug in the "note" tag. But for us,
> not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second
> because many of these businesses seem to be not really "on the ground"
> (but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere),
> third because they often don't contain even minimal information that
> would make them useful to us. I've collected these objects created in
> the past couple of days here
>
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/bitcoin.osc
>
> A few examples:
>
>  uid="1795331" user="The Tobacco Seed Company" changeset="18716456"
> lat="51.5442768" lon="0.7236584">
>   
>   
>   http://www.tobaccoseed.co.uk"/>
> 
>
> This is blatant advertising for a web site. It doesn't even say what
> kind of shop this is supposed to be.
>
>  uid="1798995" user="mkondratov" changeset="18776505" lat="41.4183069"
> lon="-81.694649">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.noospherecomputers.com"/>
> 
>
> This, too, is little more than a name on our map. We don't usually
> include the field of business in the name - this should have been
> expressed through a proper "shop" tag.
>
>  uid="1801179" user="79s VOF" changeset="18818705" lat="52.372218"
> lon="4.8653634">
>   
>   
>   https://store.79s.co"/>
> 
>
> Spam.
>
>  uid="1809524" user="webhostpl" changeset="18964238" lat="50.0727563"
> lon="19.8938861">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.webhost.pl"/>
> 
>
> Broken tagging (quite frequent).
>
>  uid="1651798" user="oldenburg69" changeset="18998877" lat="36.2026532"
> lon="-115.0597195">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.hannigfabworks.com/"/>
> 
>
> Tagging is ok as far as the address node is concerned, but without a
> shop tag the rest is kind of useless, and the "note" tag is not for your
> marketing tagline.
>
>  uid="1817212" user="l337 PLace" changeset="19091714" lat="60.1491622"
> lon="24.6551426">
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   http://www.1337place.com"/>
> 
>
> Whatever BeagleBone Black is, this hou

Re: [OSM-talk] Meet us in Birmingham on Thursday

[Rob Nickerson]

(Sorry, that should have gone to talk-gb - please reply there)


On 3 December 2013 22:49, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> We are fast approaching the first Thursday of the month and that means
> it's time for the local West Midlands group to meet up for a drink or two
> in the evening. All are welcome, so please join us from 7:30pm at The Bull,
> Price Street, Birmingham.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mappa_Mercia#Next_meeting
>
> One topic that will be discussed is the new website - no not the OSM one,
> our Mappa Mercia site!! Development has been on hold since before State of
> the Map (we would welcome support from anyone who knows web dev/wordpress).
>
> See you Thursday,
> Rob
>
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[OSM-talk] Meet us in Birmingham on Thursday

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi all,

We are fast approaching the first Thursday of the month and that means it's
time for the local West Midlands group to meet up for a drink or two in the
evening. All are welcome, so please join us from 7:30pm at The Bull, Price
Street, Birmingham.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mappa_Mercia#Next_meeting

One topic that will be discussed is the new website - no not the OSM one,
our Mappa Mercia site!! Development has been on hold since before State of
the Map (we would welcome support from anyone who knows web dev/wordpress).

See you Thursday,
Rob
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[OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

   we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be
added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely
adding a business to the map.

This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the
map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs.

However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to
improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on
the "coinmap", a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses.

It seems that a name and "payment:bitcoin=yes" is sufficient for that
site, with an optional advertising slug in the "note" tag. But for us,
not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second
because many of these businesses seem to be not really "on the ground"
(but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere),
third because they often don't contain even minimal information that
would make them useful to us. I've collected these objects created in
the past couple of days here

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/bitcoin.osc

A few examples:


  
  
  http://www.tobaccoseed.co.uk"/>


This is blatant advertising for a web site. It doesn't even say what
kind of shop this is supposed to be.


  
  
  
  
  http://www.noospherecomputers.com"/>


This, too, is little more than a name on our map. We don't usually
include the field of business in the name - this should have been
expressed through a proper "shop" tag.


  
  
  https://store.79s.co"/>


Spam.


  
  
  
  
  
  http://www.webhost.pl"/>


Broken tagging (quite frequent).


  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  http://www.hannigfabworks.com/"/>


Tagging is ok as far as the address node is concerned, but without a
shop tag the rest is kind of useless, and the "note" tag is not for your
marketing tagline.


  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  http://www.1337place.com"/>


Whatever BeagleBone Black is, this house is certeinly not called
"1337Place"...

   
  
  
   

What shall I say. The changeset comment contained something about
accepting bitcoin.

This is all rather undesirable - people adding their business to OSM
would be great, but advertising isn't, and we'd prefer if they actually
used tagging that is used in OSM, rather than simply rushing in a name
tag and a location because that's enough to get listed on some third
party web site.

I delete the ones I encounter when they're outright spam but I'm shying
away from suggesting some kind of automated cleaning job because I'm not
clear on what the minimum tagging should be on any node. We don't
currently have any such rules but seeing people dumping things into our
database that we can't use just so they're shown on coinmap seems a bit
strange.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] New layout

[Tim Waters]

This looks like the best place for this, but I think (and forgive me if I
can't find it - I'm a bit blind) but I think that there is not even a link
to the main OSM Blog from anywhere on the osm.org homepage or sub pages!

http://blog.openstreetmap.org
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Re: [OSM-talk] proprietary and unrelated images on the about page

[Robert Scott]

On Monday 02 December 2013, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> TopOSM:
> 
> http://toposm.ahlzen.com/
> (various examples on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TopOSM)
> 
> OpenSeaMap:
> 
> http://map.openseamap.org/?zoom=14&lat=56.04136&lon=12.63945&layers=BFTFFFTFFFT0
> 
> OSM2World:
> 
> http://maps.osm2world.org/?h=128&view=W&zoom=16&lat=48.57188&lon=13.46038&layers=B0
> 
> The Heat maps from:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SotM_2011_session:_Insert_Coin_To_Play
> 
> The normal map in regions with non-latin script (demonstrating the 
> international and multilingual character of the project):
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.8092/10.1738
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/32.0951/34.7996
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/35.7375/51.5014
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/39.9178/116.3833
> 
> or the Multilingual map (http://mlm.jochentopf.com/)
> 
> I know combining such to an image with harmonic colors is not easy but 
> for this purpose it would be perfectly acceptable to tweak the colors 
> of the various maps for an appealing collage.

On Monday 02 December 2013, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Opencyclemap.org
> opencyclemap.org/?zoom=11&lat=40.7322&lon=-73.95491&layers=B000
> 
> ÖPNV-Karte
> http://öpnvkarte.de/?zoom=13&lat=51.50521&lon=-0.14401&layers=TBTTT
> 
> and many more individual mapstyles including work from stamen, mapbox,
> non-mapnik renderings, ...

I am fairly certain each and every one of these suggestions has already been 
featured as an image of the week. Those of you on IRC will know that every week 
Harry dutifully runs around asking people for suggestions and submissions for a 
new image of the week, and things that aren't repeats are getting fairly thin 
on the ground now after n hundred IotWs.

I am sure Harry would be only too happy to accept help with the IotW 
maintenance task if you were willing to provide it, but only if you're able to 
help in providing non-repetitious images.


robert.

(or maybe, looking at the wider view, people want to debate whether repeats are 
"ok"?)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Largest PR campaign from G* in Germany with map mashup

[danfai]

Hi,

Since this flood I have a few ideas for a website, where everybody can 
request help or see positions where help is needed.

There is also an app for mobile devices in thoughts.

When I am at home, I could email you further details and a few questions 
I have.


Yours danfai
Am 03.12.2013 08:46 schrieb "Manfred A. Reiter" :

Yes, you can do it for a monopolist er a free and open community. ;-)

Lebt us  think about how we can re-use  it. ;-)

MR - mobile - sorry for typos and brevity
Am 03.12.2013 08:20 schrieb "Stefan Keller" :

Hi,

Theses days a 90 seconds clip about "Lars and Isa: Two against the 
flood" is being broadcasted.
It's a story about two helpers who mashed up a map of flood hotspots 
that coordinated volunteers.
It's the first story out of five (selected from 1'100) during the 
largest PR campaign from G* in Germany.


Yours, S.

[1] 
http://www.mz-web.de/halle-saalekreis/hochwasser-in-halle-google-macht-werbung-mit-fluthelfern,20640778,24778858.html




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