Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Toby Murray]

I think the road bed is compacted and built up to provide a crown so
water runs off but the gravel itself is not compacted on the surface.

So putting some numbers in here... there are only 5,700
surface=compacted ways in the US. On the other hand, there are 107,000
surface=gravel. And I am willing to bet a fair sum that 99% of those
do not follow the wiki definition of 4-8cm rocks.

Soo yeah... does anyone want to update the wiki? :)

Toby

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 10:04 AM, Richard Fairhurst
 wrote:
> Jack Burke wrote:
>> Keep in mind that OSM apparently uses "compacted" to refer to
>> macadamized roads, which is a specific process for building roads.
>
> surface=compacted in OSM, following British English usage, is traditionally
> as described on pages 18-20 of this document:
>
> https://www.sustrans.org.uk/sites/default/files/images/files/migrated-pdfs/Technical%20Note%208%20-%20Path%20surfaces(1).pdf
>
> "Self-binding gravel paths are versions of the standard limestone dust
> surface... The material is spread and levelled using a paving machine whilst
> damp/moist and then compacted using a roller or vibrating plate. The
> material 'sets' when dry, but not to the same extent as would a concrete or
> bitmac. The surface remains loose-ish and dusty"
>
> From Toby's original posting, I'd describe the first image as
> surface=gravel, since it doesn't appear to have been compacted with a
> roller. The second is probably =fine_gravel, perhaps =compacted. I'd ignore
> the wiki because the wiki, to borrow a phrase, sucks rocks.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
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[Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Toby Murray]

I recently bought a gravel bicycle to ride on the many gravel roads in
Kansas. Like this one:
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=nYO4JI46L0SWzNAQlLT4kA=photo

First question: What would you call this road? Obviously I am calling
it a "gravel road" but a couple of people have said they would call it
a "dirt road" so I'm curious if there are any other common terms to
describe this type of road in different regions of the US.

Second question: How would you tag this road? There is a
surface=gravel tag that is in pretty common usage in Kansas and
neighboring states. However looking at the wiki page for the surface
tag[1], this is not wiki-correct. According to that page
surface=gravel is to be used for large rocks (4-8cm) that are laid
down loosely like those typically used as ballast on railroad beds. I
believe The Mapillary picture I linked to would be considered
surface=compacted according to the wiki because the rocks are much
smaller and the surface is stabilized with a binding agent. There is a
big difference between the two when it comes to bicycle riding.
Railroad ballast is bone jarring and flat tire inducing whereas gravel
roads are pretty manageable on the right kind of bike.

But If you call something a "gravel road" and there is a "gravel"
option in the editor preset for the surface tag, people are going to
choose the gravel option and not look for "compacted" since that is
not a common term here. I assume it is a more common term in the UK
and that is why it is used in OSM.

And lastly there are trails that are surfaced with a similar material
but crushed to a smaller size like here:
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=iQNqP-dfQ-Rm6AD9REMsgQ=photo

I'm trying to decide if that is better as surface=compacted or
surface=fine_gravel although fine_gravel seems to be a slightly
different process from what I see on the wiki.

Maybe this should be directed at the tagging list but I thought I
would get thoughts from the US community since we seem to be the ones
using the tag incorrectly (according to the wiki)

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Large number of seemingly automated, non-SEO spam edits

[Toby Murray]

The DWG is (now) aware of it :)

There are 8 accounts with changeset comments matching this pattern
right now. Hoping they don't change it once they start getting
blocked.

Toby

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 9:04 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> I haven't seen anything like that in Washington State. Still getting the
> occasional "updated" changeset comment.
>
> Paul - it seems like they should be reported to DWG. The first user on your
> list, Mike Gothie has 83 edits. One was pure garbage. If the others are like
> that I'd report them all.
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 5:59 PM, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com
>  wrote:
>>
>> Same thing is popping up in the Denver, Colorado area. I've sent messages
>> to the new users. If no reply, I will begin deleting.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Paul Johnson
>> Sent: Mar 14, 2018 4:08 AM
>> To: Talk Openstreetmap
>> Subject: [OSM-talk] Large number of seemingly automated, non-SEO spam
>> edits
>>
>> Seem to be getting a large number of spam edits all with comments matching
>> aa, where a is any single lowercase letter and b is any single
>> digit, have appeared in the last 48 hours.  So far the items being mapped
>> have had name=* matching the same pattern, area=yes, and not much of
>> anything else, and certainly don't seem to be of any value or decipherable
>> to any casual observer.  These have started appearing in Oklahoma, which is
>> why I noticed them in OsmCha.
>>
>> Users that I've noticed so far that are doing this, totalling 261
>> changesets, all fitting this pattern:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mike%20Gothie
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/t-max
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ghostsail
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mrana3
>>
>> I strongly suspect there are more accounts doing this across the US (since
>> the mrana3 one only had a bounding box that intersected Oklahoma, no edits
>> within it, but did have them on either coast), and the oldest account
>> appears to be from March 5, 2018.
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] US Highway 266

[Toby Murray]

Sorry, I have been letting this disagreement simmer for too long.
Since it was brought up on the mailing list, I will present my view of
the situation here as well. I am not even going to say who is on which
side of the argument. My goal is to just present facts and give my own
opinion at the end.

The basic disagreement and resulting edit war has been over what
should be in the name=* tag on the ways of a section of highway in
Tulsa, Oklahoma. There have been links to state legislature PDFs
thrown around but given that OSM primarily cares about what is on the
ground, here is what I have found.

To start off with, meet Creek Turnpike:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1250473

The section of Creek Turnpike that runs from US 64 east to Oklahoma
highway 351 (the section that hooks south around the "Broken Arrow"
label) has been given the (additional) name "Liberty Parkway"

The name "Liberty Parkway" is displayed on exactly two signs along the
side of the road. One in each direction of travel at the beginning of
the section bearing the name. The text is not readable in these two
pictures but I accept that these signs on the side of the road do
indeed say "Liberty Parkway":
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=cm5oVVWk80AaduDL7nyEqg=photo
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=68OvirwWRGLfsukjcViWVg=photo

Additionally, there is a trail named "Liberty Parkway Trail" that runs
along this section of highway and is mapped here:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1203739

However, highway direction signs at onramps and interchanges seem to
all say either "Creek Turnpike" or simply "Turnpike":
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=0n7y8MbjPuXcfsxgL7j1ww=photo
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=7NgyVhy8W3AzaDhcs_wgmA=photo
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=Z5vS2VS0-N1zvXSG8seBVw=photo
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=aOye82EFOJuUZHrElTKwmA=photo

So, how do we tag this situation? Both parties are claiming "ground
truth" supports their view and certainly there is evidence for both
names signed on the ground.

An argument can certainly be made that the name "Creek Turnpike" is
present on the route relation so the member ways can contain the more
specific "Liberty Parkway" name.

At the end of the day, this edit war is basically an argument over
tagging for the renderer. Which name gets displayed more prominently
on rendered maps that typically only use the name tag from ways. I'm
guessing if common renderers displayed the alt_name tag in some way,
one of the names would have been put there and this would never have
grown into an edit war in the first place.

I could just about flip a coin on this and be happy either way.
However since "Creek Turnpike" and "Turnpike" are used on all the
onramps, it does seem a little more appropriate for that to be
displayed more prominently with "Liberty Parkway" being put in the
alt_name tag on the ways.

Not that we have to do things the same as everyone else but as another
data point I checked a few other maps and they all seem to display
"Creek Turnpike" along this section although one of them also has an
alternate name of "Broken Arrow South Loop" which... I have no idea
where that comes from so let's just ignore that :)

Lastly, I will point out that an internet search for "Liberty Parkway"
with various additions of "Oklahoma" or "Tulsa" or "Broken Arrow" all
return top results that are about the trail. In fact, the only results
I see referring to the road are links to OSM ways that have been the
subject of this edit war.

Toby



On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:54 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> Can we get a block, perhaps permanently, on this user?  36 edits have been
> bad, out of 38 total.  User does not appear to be reasonable in various
> changeset threads, 36 of which have been his inability to deal with the
> Liberty Parkway rename by the state legislature from over a decade ago.
> It's just getting rediculous at this point.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Privacy concerns - revive some sort of anonymous editing?

[Toby Murray]

Not to rain on your account deletion party... but it may be doing less
than you think. User names get replicated out to anyone who consumes
OSM data. It is in the weekly planet dump files as well as all the
minutely/hourly/daily replication diff files. So your old (now
deleted) user name and your edits are still recorded in thousands of
databases across the globe. I have one on my own computer at home
actually. I use it to help analyze potential vandalism edits as
Frederik talked about.

Toby


On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Jibix  wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> I've been a contributor of OpenStreetMap for a few year, with a couple of
> different accounts. I got them deleted today and I though it could be
> worthwhile talking about this here.
>
> In our current era of big data, I have been more and more concerned about
> having all my osm edits publicly linked to my profiles, and these profiles
> publicly listing all these positions and places where I've been, also with
> somehow time information and sometimes comments, etc... visible forever by
> anyone, or any bot. I've looked into making the link between all that data
> not publicly visible, but it seems the functionality there use to be for
> that (anonymous editing) is not possible since 2007/2009.
>
> I've read (a good few of the) related e-mails from that time [1], and I
> understand that there was an important ground and a general consensus for
> that decision, despite a minority of voice disappointed by this "security
> rather than freedom" direction being taken.
>
> My humble point of view is that with the important evolution that OSM has
> experienced since back then, it would be a very good thing, if not done
> already, to revisit this issue and find a middle point which possibly was
> not easily feasible at the time but would now be more achievable. For
> instance, if I had a tick box "do not publicly link changes to my account",
> either at account level or at changeset level, but that every user still had
> the possibility to send a message to the author of such edits, and to roll
> them back (even potentially with a procedure for banning users with too much
> anonymous changes rolled back by the community, as the edits-author link is
> not lost, it's just not visible to users, whether registered or not). Then,
> I think, everyone would be happy, or close to? I mean, I think this would
> address both the concerns that led to the decision of disabling anonymous
> editing back in 2007 and the privacy concerns I summarised above.
>
> (At the time it was also mentioned that OSM is all about being a community
> project, and that it was probably inconsistent to allow anonymous
> contributions in that context. In particular, a comparison with Wikipedia
> was made. My opinion on this is that location-related information are in
> general much more privacy-critical than Wikipedia edits are, in particular
> now that you have user-friendly mobile apps for mapping on the go, and
> therefore the comparison is inappropriate.)
>
> I've been looking a bit around to see if there was a plan for developing
> something like that anytime soon, or if it had been implemented already, but
> I couldn't find. I've mailed the support team, who confirmed there is
> currently no way (other than closing an account) to make edits become
> anonymous.
>
> Therefore I'm afraid the only way forward I see to address my concerns is
> the following:
> 1) on the one hand having my past accounts deleted, for the corresponding
> change-sets not to be linked any more to my name or pseudonym. I got that
> done today.
> 2) on the other hand, from now on, to periodically create and abandon
> accounts for keeping editing without a massive correlation of data being too
> easily possible (but even like that it's an unperfect tradeoff).
>
> I'm not sure how much of the community is having concerns similar to mine,
> but I would guess that these can only have gone bigger and bigger since back
> in 2007. As said above, I believe it would be worth having a think about it
> again. (But maybe it has already been discussed again recently, and I didn't
> find out?)
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Looking forward,
>
> Jibix
>
> [1]:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2007-October/thread.html#18853
>
> --
> Jibix
> favourite webpage of the moment:
> https://degooglisons-internet.org/alternatives?l=en
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Pokémon Go no officially using OpenStreetMap

[Toby Murray]

On the flip side, this seems to be driving a second wave of pokemon
players coming to OSM and mapping parks over their homes, changing
things to footways and such nonsense. It is also driving beneficial
edits though. Hopefully the helpful users will stick around longer
than the trolls. Just keep an eye out for random parks appearing on
the map for a while.

Toby

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Bill Ricker  wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Peter Dobratz  wrote:
>> I'm not sure how many active OSM contributors also play Pokémon Go, but the
>> game is now officially using OSM for the basemap that players see in the
>> game (previously was using Google Maps data for the base map).  The in-game
>> about screen has text in the bottom of the License section correctly
>> attributing OSM.
>
>
> Thank you for sharing this.
>
> I was guessing so, when my daughter said a couple of the walking paths
> in our neighborhood had shown up in the game. ( I haven't added them
> to GoogleMaps so was pretty sure what map it was :-).)
>
> Glad to hear it's properly attributed.
>
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Re: [Talk-us] FBI using OSM on website... without attribution

[Toby Murray]

I would usually advocate getting law enforcement involved in an OSM
licensing misstep... but someone should call the FBI!

It's not just the Denver field office. The map on the nation-wide
field office locator page also lacks attribution:
https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices

I just send out a tweet. Not sure if their social media person will
know who to pass it on to. Will report if I get singled out for
enhanced screening on my next flight :)

https://twitter.com/KSUToeBee/status/880523984378277888

Toby


On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:
> https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/denver
>
> See map in upper right part of page
>
> Mike
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Changesets under wrong user ID

[Toby Murray]

Yeah, there isn't any way too fix it short of an admin manually changing
the database and that isn't going to happen for something like this.

Commenting on the changesets is probably reasonable.

Toby

On Jun 1, 2017 12:42 PM, "Steve Friedl"  wrote:

> Isn’t the easiest thing here to just comment on each changeset with the
> explanation?  I have done this when I put an obviously wrong comment in a
> changeset.
>
>
>
> *From:* Kevin Kenny [mailto:kevin.b.kenny+...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 1, 2017 10:31 AM
> *To:* talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* [Talk-us] Changesets under wrong user ID
>
>
>
> I just realized that four days ago, I made a bunch of 'boots on the
> ground' changes that inadvertently got pushed to OSM using a security token
> in JOSM that was left over from a round of importing, and therefore they
> appear as the import user ID 'ke9tv-nysdec-lands' rather than my user ID
> 'ke9tv'.
>
> Is this something that I need to worry about, and if so, how do I go about
> repairing it?
>
> For what it's worth, the changeset numbers are 49055471 49055926 49056153
> 49056335 49056404 49056440 49056656 49056681.
>
> Sorry about the mistake!
>
> Kevin
>
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

As an ingress player, I can confirm use of ingress data for pokestops and
gyms. Same location descriptions and images submitted by ingress players.
Ingress saw a huge influx of new users when Pokemon Go launched. People
created ingress accounts just so that they could use the ingress Intel map
to find pokestops since (in typical niantic fashion) they did not supply
this useful information to players directly.

The thing that is (MAYBE!) being pulled from OSM is Pokemon spawn locations
along pedestrian features and "biomes" which (I think) are land use area
that spawn specific types of Pokemon. So water ones around rivers, canals
and lakes.

Toby

On Jan 5, 2017 4:20 PM, "Rihards"  wrote:

On 2017.01.05. 22:34, Bill Ricker wrote:
> I have a possible confirmation that PokeGo is using OSM Points of
> Interest to populate features, but not of edit vandalism.
>
> We went onto local hiking trails to document some local science history,
> taking my daughter along for company and having someone under 50 to keep
> an eye on us oldsters. She brought her iPhone and PokeGo of course. (I'd
> expected her to be my photographic "2nd shooter", oh well.)  She
> reported that our destination included both a PokeGo Gym and a PokeStop.
>
> The PokeStop was at our exact target,  "1899 MIT Observatory site" which
> is moderately well known (on the park map, in FourSquare). [1]
>
> But the Gym was a horizontal control benchmark "BLOOM 1934" which is NOT
> in published catalogs (USGS, MASSDOT, Geocache.com) of benchmarks. It
> appears to be part of the MAGS 1934 survey, does not appear to have
> elevation stamped, consistent with other MAGS 1934 disks. Is it not
> cataloged because not required in final control mesh?  [2]
> (I have added the disk name "BLOOM 1934" to the OSM node today.)

reportedly gyms have been populated from their previous game, ingress.
in ingress they got in by people taking photos of objects and sending
those in.

> Both were added in a 6 year old trail-improvement changeset based on GPS
> hiking track. [3]
> (Which was more uptodate than the published park map and was very
> helpful for old guys taking the gradual slope trail! )
>
> This six year old OSM "man made/man mad/Survey point" is the only online
> reference to this point i've found ... aside from the PokeGo Gym ... for
> this disk.
>
> Alas I did not have her take screen-captures to determine if the
> spelling of feature names is exactly OSM's.
>
> (There's another point in that change set i need to discuss with
> OceanVortex ... will DM on OSM.org ...)
>
> [1]
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663159#map=19/42.
44109/-71.08359=D
>
> [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663076
> [3]
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/6007454#map=16/42.
4433/-71.0844=D
>
>
>
> --
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> bill.n1...@gmail.com 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

As an ingress player, I can confirm use of ingress data for pokestops and
gyms. Same location descriptions and images submitted by ingress players.
Ingress saw a huge influx of new users when Pokemon Go launched. People
created ingress accounts just so that they could use the ingress Intel map
to find pokestops since (in typical niantic fashion) they did not supply
this useful information to players directly.

The thing that is (MAYBE!) being pulled from OSM is Pokemon spawn locations
along pedestrian features and "biomes" which (I think) are land use area
that spawn specific types of Pokemon. So water ones around rivers, canals
and lakes.

Toby

On Jan 5, 2017 4:20 PM, "Rihards"  wrote:

On 2017.01.05. 22:34, Bill Ricker wrote:
> I have a possible confirmation that PokeGo is using OSM Points of
> Interest to populate features, but not of edit vandalism.
>
> We went onto local hiking trails to document some local science history,
> taking my daughter along for company and having someone under 50 to keep
> an eye on us oldsters. She brought her iPhone and PokeGo of course. (I'd
> expected her to be my photographic "2nd shooter", oh well.)  She
> reported that our destination included both a PokeGo Gym and a PokeStop.
>
> The PokeStop was at our exact target,  "1899 MIT Observatory site" which
> is moderately well known (on the park map, in FourSquare). [1]
>
> But the Gym was a horizontal control benchmark "BLOOM 1934" which is NOT
> in published catalogs (USGS, MASSDOT, Geocache.com) of benchmarks. It
> appears to be part of the MAGS 1934 survey, does not appear to have
> elevation stamped, consistent with other MAGS 1934 disks. Is it not
> cataloged because not required in final control mesh?  [2]
> (I have added the disk name "BLOOM 1934" to the OSM node today.)

reportedly gyms have been populated from their previous game, ingress.
in ingress they got in by people taking photos of objects and sending
those in.

> Both were added in a 6 year old trail-improvement changeset based on GPS
> hiking track. [3]
> (Which was more uptodate than the published park map and was very
> helpful for old guys taking the gradual slope trail! )
>
> This six year old OSM "man made/man mad/Survey point" is the only online
> reference to this point i've found ... aside from the PokeGo Gym ... for
> this disk.
>
> Alas I did not have her take screen-captures to determine if the
> spelling of feature names is exactly OSM's.
>
> (There's another point in that change set i need to discuss with
> OceanVortex ... will DM on OSM.org ...)
>
> [1]
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663159#map=19/42.
44109/-71.08359=D
>
> [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663076
> [3]
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/6007454#map=16/42.
4433/-71.0844=D
>
>
>
> --
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> bill.n1...@gmail.com 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

No, there is no evidence of diffs being used. Heck, there isn't even hard
evidence that they are using OSM data at all yet. And I agree, if they are
actually using OSM, it is most likely a snapshot that gets updated only
periodically.

But once there are enough reddit threads about it, it doesn't matter if
it's true. Anyone remember when a similar thing happened with Apple maps
and 4chan? That time it was all about changing famous street names to
vulgar terms just for the lulz.

Toby

On Jan 4, 2017 8:06 AM, "Steve Bennett"  wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
>   Just a question which no one seems to have addressed - is there any
> evidence that Go is actually using a *feed* of OSM data, rather than just a
> one-off dump? It's really rare, IMHO, for anyone to bother with a feed for
> a project like this - so much easier to just get a planet extract, process
> it, and do whatever you want with it. For the Go people to actually
> constantly update from live OSM data seems like a lot of work, for not much
> benefit.
>
> If they're *not* using live data, then as soon as the Go players realise
> that, then presumably the vandalism will stop.
>
> Steve
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

As an update to my original message:

I have been active on /r/TheSilphRoad over the past couple of days
commenting and clarifying some things. I have seen a couple other
OSMers there too. Yesterday someone started a discussion titled "Our
impact on OSM, might be bad" so at least the POGO community is aware
of the problem now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5ktxli/our_impact_on_osm_might_be_bad/

I've seen a couple of people complain that their valid edits have been
reverted. I'm not sure if that might just be browser caching making it
look like their edits weren't applied or if someone did actually
revert their changes. I have been asking for links to changesets to
investigate but haven't gotten a ping back yet. But please do be
careful to not revert too much.

And if you do revert a changeset, please leave a changeset comment on
the original edit. I reverted one changeset that looked very much like
vandalism but after some discussion with the user it turned out to not
be intentional vandalism, just lack of knowledge.

I do think the bad edits are slowing down though and overall we did
gain some good new users. There are a fair number of people who first
learned about OSM through these posts and there are several posts
about people seeing empty maps of their cities and getting the urge to
fill them in, regardless of Pokemon activity!

Toby

On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Toby Murray <toby.mur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that claims to
> show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from OSM to determine
> good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also several threads on reddit
> under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar claims. It is amusing to see their
> speculation and methods of testing their "evidence" which include adding a
> footway to OSM and then going out and playing Pokemon Go a couple hours
> later so see if it affected anything.
>
> Anyway, the theory being proposed is that highway=footway features in OSM
> lead to increased Pokemon spawn activity. Also, nests are supposedly located
> inside of recreation type landuse areas (golf course, park, play ground,
> etc) This has led to some players attempting to influence the game mechanics
> by, for example, adding a bunch of footways around their house. While that
> is a relatively benign change, some others have taken to retagging paths,
> cycleways and even residential roads to highway=footway.
>
> I have been watching any changesets that come in with the word "pokemon" in
> the changeset comments and have reverted a bunch of them. However I am
> worried about users who may not be using changeset comments so I thought I
> would at least let the wider community know that this is happening and if
> you see any odd reclassification of features to highway=footway, this is
> probably why. I have also seen some legit and useful edits so it isn't all
> bad.
>
> Some places where these discussions are happening:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ000T8GbE
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jfnrm/how_to_find_the_new_rural_spawn_points/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/50ni6g/osm_data_spawn_points_relation_confirmed/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/54sy36/osm_query_to_identify_possible_nests/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jw4ep/new_spawn_points_in_my_area_align_with_osm/
>
> I would call their evidence circumstantial at best.
>
> Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

As an update to my original message:

I have been active on /r/TheSilphRoad over the past couple of days
commenting and clarifying some things. I have seen a couple other
OSMers there too. Yesterday someone started a discussion titled "Our
impact on OSM, might be bad" so at least the POGO community is aware
of the problem now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5ktxli/our_impact_on_osm_might_be_bad/

I've seen a couple of people complain that their valid edits have been
reverted. I'm not sure if that might just be browser caching making it
look like their edits weren't applied or if someone did actually
revert their changes. I have been asking for links to changesets to
investigate but haven't gotten a ping back yet. But please do be
careful to not revert too much.

And if you do revert a changeset, please leave a changeset comment on
the original edit. I reverted one changeset that looked very much like
vandalism but after some discussion with the user it turned out to not
be intentional vandalism, just lack of knowledge.

I do think the bad edits are slowing down though and overall we did
gain some good new users. There are a fair number of people who first
learned about OSM through these posts and there are several posts
about people seeing empty maps of their cities and getting the urge to
fill them in, regardless of Pokemon activity!

Toby

On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Toby Murray <toby.mur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that claims to
> show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from OSM to determine
> good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also several threads on reddit
> under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar claims. It is amusing to see their
> speculation and methods of testing their "evidence" which include adding a
> footway to OSM and then going out and playing Pokemon Go a couple hours
> later so see if it affected anything.
>
> Anyway, the theory being proposed is that highway=footway features in OSM
> lead to increased Pokemon spawn activity. Also, nests are supposedly located
> inside of recreation type landuse areas (golf course, park, play ground,
> etc) This has led to some players attempting to influence the game mechanics
> by, for example, adding a bunch of footways around their house. While that
> is a relatively benign change, some others have taken to retagging paths,
> cycleways and even residential roads to highway=footway.
>
> I have been watching any changesets that come in with the word "pokemon" in
> the changeset comments and have reverted a bunch of them. However I am
> worried about users who may not be using changeset comments so I thought I
> would at least let the wider community know that this is happening and if
> you see any odd reclassification of features to highway=footway, this is
> probably why. I have also seen some legit and useful edits so it isn't all
> bad.
>
> Some places where these discussions are happening:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ000T8GbE
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jfnrm/how_to_find_the_new_rural_spawn_points/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/50ni6g/osm_data_spawn_points_relation_confirmed/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/54sy36/osm_query_to_identify_possible_nests/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jw4ep/new_spawn_points_in_my_area_align_with_osm/
>
> I would call their evidence circumstantial at best.
>
> Toby

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[Talk-us] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that claims to
show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from OSM to determine
good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also several threads on reddit
under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar claims. It is amusing to see their
speculation and methods of testing their "evidence" which include adding a
footway to OSM and then going out and playing Pokemon Go a couple hours
later so see if it affected anything.

Anyway, the theory being proposed is that highway=footway features in OSM
lead to increased Pokemon spawn activity. Also, nests are supposedly
located inside of recreation type landuse areas (golf course, park, play
ground, etc) This has led to some players attempting to influence the game
mechanics by, for example, adding a bunch of footways around their house.
While that is a relatively benign change, some others have taken to
retagging paths, cycleways and even residential roads to highway=footway.

I have been watching any changesets that come in with the word "pokemon" in
the changeset comments and have reverted a bunch of them. However I am
worried about users who may not be using changeset comments so I thought I
would at least let the wider community know that this is happening and if
you see any odd reclassification of features to highway=footway, this is
probably why. I have also seen some legit and useful edits so it isn't all
bad.

Some places where these discussions are happening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ000T8GbE
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jfnrm/how_to_find_the_new_rural_spawn_points/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/50ni6g/osm_data_spawn_points_relation_confirmed/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/54sy36/osm_query_to_identify_possible_nests/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jw4ep/new_spawn_points_in_my_area_align_with_osm/

I would call their evidence circumstantial at best.

Toby
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[OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that claims to
show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from OSM to determine
good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also several threads on reddit
under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar claims. It is amusing to see their
speculation and methods of testing their "evidence" which include adding a
footway to OSM and then going out and playing Pokemon Go a couple hours
later so see if it affected anything.

Anyway, the theory being proposed is that highway=footway features in OSM
lead to increased Pokemon spawn activity. Also, nests are supposedly
located inside of recreation type landuse areas (golf course, park, play
ground, etc) This has led to some players attempting to influence the game
mechanics by, for example, adding a bunch of footways around their house.
While that is a relatively benign change, some others have taken to
retagging paths, cycleways and even residential roads to highway=footway.

I have been watching any changesets that come in with the word "pokemon" in
the changeset comments and have reverted a bunch of them. However I am
worried about users who may not be using changeset comments so I thought I
would at least let the wider community know that this is happening and if
you see any odd reclassification of features to highway=footway, this is
probably why. I have also seen some legit and useful edits so it isn't all
bad.

Some places where these discussions are happening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ000T8GbE
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jfnrm/how_to_find_the_new_rural_spawn_points/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/50ni6g/osm_data_spawn_points_relation_confirmed/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/54sy36/osm_query_to_identify_possible_nests/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jw4ep/new_spawn_points_in_my_area_align_with_osm/

I would call their evidence circumstantial at best.

Toby
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetView name change

[Toby Murray]

I'm guessing they are claiming trademark rights on the term "Street
View" which is not entirely unreasonable. (IANAL, etc)

Toby


On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Glenn Plas  wrote:
> Does well-know-bully-company own the word 'view' ?  I don't understand
> why you consider yielding on this.  They can ask all they want right ?
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On 08-11-16 16:34, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A few months ago, we started with OpenStreetView, the free and open
>> street level imagery project made 100% for OSM with apps for Android and
>> iOS. Since then, we not only have collected almost 30 kilometers of
>> coverage, but also received a lot of attention from both you and the
>> press. This has also led to a friendly (for now) request by a well-known
>> company with a similarly-named product :) to not use the OpenStreetView
>> name. So we are looking for a new name. We have some ideas already but I
>> wanted to ask if you had any suggestions for a new name for OSV?
>>
>> Thanks for your support and happy capturing / mapping,
>>
>> Martijn + the OpenStreetView team
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-us] North Dakota server issues

[Toby Murray]

According to some traffic on IRC, there is currently some delay in
replication between the master and slave databases. Since reads are
served from the slaves, this can lead to this kind of inconsistency.
The reason is still unknown. It will probably be a couple of hours
before it gets fixed. But uploads go straight to the master database
so your edits *have* been saved.

Toby

On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 11:09 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:
> however, some of my edits do show up
>
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 10:07 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:
>>
>> I am now seeing the same thing Joseph is.  I deleted the data layer I was
>> editing in JOSM (that I had saved), and re-downloaded, and my edits don't
>> show up.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Joseph Barnes 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I know there should be a roundabout I added but it doesn’t show up in the
>>> editor and when I try to edit it again the editor won’t let me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Mike Thompson [mailto:miketh...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 11:05 PM
>>> To: Joseph Barnes 
>>> Cc: Open Street Map Talk-US 
>>> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] North Dakota server issues
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am having what might be a related problem in that upon upload JOSM says
>>> there is a conflict, but there are no conflicts listed in the conflict
>>> window. I have tried re-downloading and editing the same object several
>>> times and the same thing happens.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:52 PM, Joseph Barnes 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> So I closed the changeset found here:
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/43341405. While the changes show up
>>> on the map, when I tried to go back in and edit a minor detail, it appeared
>>> that the changes were non-existent. This also prevents me (or anyone) from
>>> editing anything that I touched, since the editors will give invalid
>>> way/relation errors but I haven’t figured out how to fix them. (tried on
>>> both Potlach and JOSM)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is this a big problem?
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: [Talk-us] Check your turn:lanes

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 12:09 PM, Jack Burke  wrote:
> So I take it that at least you and I are in agreement that the wiki is
> deficient for branching exits like this one:
> http://mapillary.com/map/im/7igAGXSa6EsUYlTIujXchw

Why does this example even need any special lane tagging? I would map
this as lanes=3 on the motorway and then draw the motorway_link with a
lanes=1 tag out to right in front of where that picture is. Right now
the motorway_link doesn't branch off of the main way until WAY past
where the white solid line starts and where you must commit to the
exit.

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] Check your turn:lanes

[Toby Murray]

Mind sharing the link to the GitHub issue?

Do they think that "none" is an invalid option and are replacing it
with a blank globally? If so, this should be shut down immediately.
"none" and blank are both valid values and while I wouldn't mind
seeing it be consistent, any such edit would need to be discussed
before it is done.

Toby

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Jack Burke  wrote:
> An active OSM group (leaving names, etc. out while they check out what I
> reported) is running a script or plug-in or challenge called "to-fix" that
> is apparently supposed to help fix incorrect turn:lanes values (and maybe
> other things, I haven't investigated deeply enough).
>
> The problem is, it's breaking the values instead.  I found a section of road
> that I'd added turn:lanes to in order to provide lane guidance at an exit.
> My original value of "none|none|none|none|none;slight_right" was replaced by
> "slight_right".
>
> While, per the wiki, there's nothing particularly wrong with a null value
> for a field vs. specifying "none" as the value, it *does* make a difference
> when there are two values in the field, as in my example above.  They turned
> a continue-on-or-exit lane into an exit-only lane.
>
> So if you find broken lane guidance like that, with empty fields where
> "none" would also be appropriate, that's probably what happened.  Check the
> history on the way and see if you can backtrack what happened (fortunately,
> the group involved here included a url to a github issue where they are
> tracking what they're doing).
>
> Now I have 200 miles of Interstate to go back through and re-check.
>
> --jack
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] SearchAroundBot: a Telegram Bot for OSM

[Toby Murray]

The tg:// URL is intended to be opened on a mobile device with the
Telegram app installed. Using this link on such a device will open the
Telegram app to the specified channel/group (or whatever Telegram
calls it)

Toby

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Dave F  wrote:
>
> On 23/08/2016 17:04, Federico wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've recently developed a Telegram Bot (https://telegram.me/SearchAroundBot)
>
>
> This URL is sending me to:tg://resolve?domain=SearchAroundBot
> & give this error message:
> Firefox doesn't know how to open this address, because one of the following
> protocols (tg) isn't associated with any program or is not allowed in this
> context.
>
> Same with IE.
>
> to enable users to easily add POI (currently only drinking water and toilets
> amenities) into OSM. Here is the OSM wiki page here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SearchAroundBot
>
> I'd like to ask you to have a look at it and let me know if you have any
> specific suggestion for improving it. If so please go to the osm forum:
> http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=605383#p605383
>
> Thanks for your attention,
> Federico
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Convert Note to Node

[Toby Murray]

Well you can go to the API and get the note XML which has the lat/lon
in it. The URL for this is:
http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/

If you are using JOSM and use the note download feature, then notes
are shown on the map so you can just create a node in the same
location. Note support has not made it into iD yet.

Toby

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Steve Doerr  wrote:
> Has anyone built a utility to convert a note into a node?
>
> Alternatively, is there a way to display the longitude and latitude of a
> note in the same way as you can for a node?
>
> --
> Steve
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Way to message a bunch of users at once?

[Toby Murray]

Well there was already significant work done on a "groups" feature
that would have let users opt in to location-specific groups. But it
never got a final push to completion. The work and discussion
surrounding it are in a GitHub pull request:

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/297

Toby

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:42 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
> Jonathan Schleuss writes:
>  > Is there a way to email multiple users at once?
>
> Yes and no. I created a hack to mail to geolocated OSM users, but I
> feel disinclined to share that. Of course the board of directors can
> authorize the sysadmins to send bulk email, but that happens only
> rarely.
>
> I designed a system for communicating with users, but never
> implemented it. Since it's opt-in, it's not spam. The idea is simple:
> allow people to receive notices posted via the OSM user interface to a
> particular lat/lon. They do so by adding one or more bounding boxes
> for their areas of interest to their OSM profile. If the notice's
> location falls in their bounding box, they get the notice in their OSM
> Inbox.  Not hard to implement if you know or want to learn
> Ruby. Neither of those applies to me.
>
> --
> --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
> Crynwr supports open source software
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog
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[Talk-us] User bumping all grade-separated intersections to motorway

[Toby Murray]

I just discovered some misguided edits and the user in question seems
to have made many of them over a wide area so I thought I would put
people on notice to be aware of this.

While on the Biking Across Kansas tour last week I saw some odd
looking segments in OsmAnd along US 36 in Kansas. I got home this
weekend and saw the same thing locally.

Upon investigation it looks like user "SD Mapman" has gone around
upgrading grade-separated intersections to highway=motorway,
regardless of any other criteria. So US 36 in Kansas had a random
section of highway=motorway for less than a mile even though the rest
of it is highway=primary and it is a two-lane highway with nothing
between the lanes but a dashed yellow line and sometimes a center
rumble strip.

He also did not use the oneway=no tag so it has ruined routing of
single carriageway highways in one direction because routers assume
motorways are one-way by default.

I made a comment on one of the changesets. I have not received a
response yet however he is now going back and downgrading them from
motorway to trunk. I still think this is not correct and will probably
go back and reclassify them to what they were before his edits, at
least in Kansas.

According to a quick overpass query, he is the last editor of
highway=motorway ways in 22 states so these will probably need to be
reviewed.

Here is a link to the Overpass query (warning: a couple MB of JSON to render)
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/gMq

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] How are US county boundaries legally defined?

[Toby Murray]

On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:09 PM, Jake  wrote:
> I've been mapping a small section of National Forest, which straddles two
> counties; Boone and Callaway.
>
> On every map I can find - Boone Countys GIS dept., census.gov, US Forest
> Service - the county border strictly follows a river, Cedar Creek. However,
> on OSM, the boundary is shaped exactly like the river, but is shifted about
> a quarter mile north-east of it. Here's a small section to show what I mean:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/38.8117/-92.1427
>
> Now, I'm pretty sure this is a mistake - rivers move, but they don't shift
> in perfectly synchronized 40-mile segments like this.

Probably a mistake, but not one done in OSM. Eric suggested a
way-dragging accident may have happened but looking at the node
histories, it looks like this is the original location of these nodes
from when Ian imported them from TIGER boundaries.

>
> I'd like to find out how that boundary is actually legally defined, but my
> google-fu is not strong enough, it seems.
>
> US mappers - do any of you know what government body is the keeper of truth
> for Missouri county boundaries?

I think Kevin's comments about the NY counties may be more common than
you think. I believe the county border between my county and the one
to the east was disputed for a long time and may actually still be a
sore spot between them. It was originally defined as the course of the
Big Blue River. Since then, the river flooded and changed its course
dramatically. The area of land between the two river courses contains
a Walmart Supercenter that both counties want tax dollars from :)

But the official boundary as it stands follows the old course of the
river, even in the lake that is now behind a dam they built to prevent
future floods.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Redaction of some Afghanistan data

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The inclusion of a source statement in each change set of at least 3
> characters would be a helpfull start?
> Did these change sets have any indication of the source?

I went poking around and found some of the affected changesets. Yes,
the changesets had a source=Google tag.

e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/37579334

The problem was pointed out in several of the users' changeset
comments by multiple people.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Slack

[Toby Murray]

I have set up a Slack bot using some software[1] that relays messages
between a slack channel and an IRC channel. It is listening in #osm on
OFTC and the #irc slack channel in Steve's team.

I love my irssi+screen IRC setup however it kind of breaks down when
it comes to a phone-friendly interface. So I may use this slack
channel to hop on IRC from my phone sometimes.

We'll see how it goes. It hasn't seen too much traffic yet.

Toby


[1] https://github.com/ekmartin/slack-irc

On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 2:07 AM, Steve Coast  wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_(software)
>
> On Mar 27, 2016, at 12:02 AM, Maarten Deen  wrote:
>
> On 2016-03-26 20:59, Steve Coast wrote:
>
> Ok so look, Slack took over the world. And it turns out it’s pretty
> good and useful. Let’s have an official OSM slack.
>
>
> Maybe I'm living under a rock, but I only know Slack as a short for
> Slackware, a Linux distribution.
>
> What is this and why do I need this? Maybe a little explanation?
>
> Regards,
> Maarten
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Slack

[Toby Murray]

I have set up a Slack bot using some software[1] that relays messages
between a slack channel and an IRC channel. It is listening in #osm on
OFTC and the #irc slack channel in Steve's team.

I love my irssi+screen IRC setup however it kind of breaks down when
it comes to a phone-friendly interface. So I may use this slack
channel to hop on IRC from my phone sometimes.

We'll see how it goes. It hasn't seen too much traffic yet.

Toby


[1] https://github.com/ekmartin/slack-irc

On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 2:07 AM, Steve Coast  wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_(software)
>
> On Mar 27, 2016, at 12:02 AM, Maarten Deen  wrote:
>
> On 2016-03-26 20:59, Steve Coast wrote:
>
> Ok so look, Slack took over the world. And it turns out it’s pretty
> good and useful. Let’s have an official OSM slack.
>
>
> Maybe I'm living under a rock, but I only know Slack as a short for
> Slackware, a Linux distribution.
>
> What is this and why do I need this? Maybe a little explanation?
>
> Regards,
> Maarten
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Slack

[Toby Murray]

I believe there are slack bots that can connect slack and IRC. Not
sure how well they work when there is a lot of traffic on both sides.
But is it something we would want to look at?

Toby

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:
> Thanks I added it to the wiki.
>
> Steve
>
> On Mar 26, 2016, at 2:07 PM, althio  wrote:
>
> Created a few days ago for SotM-WG:
> https://osmfoundation.slack.com/
>
> - althio
> On mobile, please excuse brevity.
>
> On Mar 26, 2016 9:05 PM, "Steve Coast"  wrote:
>>
>> Ok so look, Slack took over the world. And it turns out it’s pretty good
>> and useful. Let’s have an official OSM slack.
>>
>> —
>>
>> Due Diligence:
>>
>> https://www.google.com/#q=slack+site:wiki.openstreetmap.org
>> https://www.google.com/#q=slack+site:lists.openstreetmap.org
>>
>> I’ve found two OSM-related slacks. Someone owns openstreetmap.slack.com
>> and there is also osmus-slack.herokuapp.com as a front door to the US slack.
>> The former I can’t find a lot about. The latter is mentioned here:
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Maryland
>>
>> And it has a neat thing to throw out invites to people. There’s also a
>> neat bot that it looks like tmcw wrote:
>>
>> https://github.com/osmlab/osm-slackbot
>>
>> —
>>
>> I’m proposing that a) we have a global slack and b) it be ‘official’
>> whatever that means. Having not been able to find this, I invite everyone
>> over to:
>>
>> https://awesomestreetmap.slack.com
>>
>> So unless there is a secret slack somewhere that I missed, or something, I
>> need help:
>>
>> * Come join this slack, send me an email for an invite
>> * Can someone please add the osmbot to this slack?
>> * Can someone please make the magic “send me an invite thing” for this
>> slack?
>> * Please help edit http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slack and also make
>> slack a prominent part of other methods of communication
>> * Please announce this on your favorite existing mailing list, forum or
>> IRC channel
>>
>> I realize that I’m inviting a discussion about how slack is an evil
>> company or that we should all just use IRC, and those are fine arguments I
>> don’t have the energy for.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Steve
>>
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Re: [Talk-us] Relations and boundaries

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 03/03/2016 08:02 PM, Steve Friedl wrote:
>> I’ve been updating all the cities in Orange County California to have fully
>> segmented relationalized boundaries, such that cities sharing a common
>> border share a single way in each of their relations; this eliminates
>> overlapping ways.  It’s been very tedious but it's really getting cleaned
>> up.

Nice. I did the same with county relations a while ago and yes, it is
very tedious. While you're doing that are you also putting wikipedia
tags and adding nodes to the relations? I did this with counties and
talked about it in a blog post a while ago. Some of the same things I
talk about in the blog post likely apply to cities as well:
http://ksmapper.blogspot.com/2014/02/county-borders-in-openstreetmap.html

>> First: The individual relations – city, county, national forest, etc. – all
>> have full information tags about the entity, but how should the way members
>> themselves be tagged?
>
> It is not necessary but may add clarity for people editing the data.
> Generally it is recommended to tag boundary=administrative,
> admin_level=, and no names (no
> county:left, county:right stuff etc either).

Agree with Frederik here. A completely tagless way is more likely to
be deleted or otherwise messed with by people who don't know the
details of boundary relations so I typically leave the
boundary=administrative and admin_level tags on them.


>> Within Westminster is a "donut hole" , and the Westminster relation has it
>> as a role=inner.
>>
>> Question: should that same donut hole be tagged role=outer in the Orange
>> County relation?
>
> Yes, that's what I would suggest. It would be nice if our tools allowed
> you to simply make the Westminster *relation* an "inner" of Orange
> county and thereby automatically do the donut justice but that's not
> supported by anything really.

Disagree here. As Peter said, when you enter the city you aren't
leaving the county (Independent cities in Virginia are a different
story) so you don't need to do anything with it. There have been some
instances of people using "subarea" relation memberships but I don't
really agree with that myself. Especially in the case of
cities/counties since cities sometimes spread into multiple counties.
See the United States boundary relation for an example of this:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/148838

Note that all the state boundary relations are members of the U.S.
relation with a role of "subarea" - and to reiterate, I do *not*
recommend doing this :)

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Missing data in rendering database on orm

[Toby Murray]

To continue the self-replies here... I was able to use the original
changeset XML, some python and a few shell tools to craft a file that
I could open in JOSM and cause it to re-upload all the objects with no
changes except for a version number bump. This caused everything to
show up in a new minutely diff that was replicated to orm to force it
to update. Everything looks as it should now in Wichita. The changeset
was almost 700 objects so it is a noticeable difference on the map.

If someone else discovers one of their changesets affected by the same
problem I could probably be convinced to repeat the procedure :)

The problem diff contains data from February 12th starting at 02:24
and ending at 06:31 UTC. That would have been a Thursday evening in
the U.S. Changesets uploaded during this time could be affected.

Toby


On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 11:49 PM, Toby Murray <toby.mur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> After talking a little bit about this on IRC with Tom and Sarah, it
> appears this is related to a replication glitch that happened on
> February 12th. It was mentioned on the developer mailing list:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2016-February/029087.html
>
> The "minutely" changeset being talked about there actually contains
> about 4 hours worth of changes due to some server problems that were
> happening at the time. So anything that was uploaded during those 4
> hours may be affected. I'm guessing the intersection of people
> uploading at that time, people who land on orm instead of yevaud for
> rendering and people who have actually noticed a glitch like this is
> pretty small. (just me so far) But this problem could affect up to
> about 340,000 objects in that diff. If objects are edited again, they
> get fixed. Although if a way is edited that contains nodes that were
> created during the 4 hour problem period there will still be problems
> with the way until all of its child nodes are edited as well.
>
> I was able to fix the gap I mentioned in my previous email by
> uploading a diff that did nothing but bump the version number of the
> way and all of its nodes.
>
> To fix everything at once would probably take either re-applying the
> last 2 weeks of diffs to orm or doing a full reimport of the rendering
> database and I'm guessing that unless some other very visible problems
> are discovered, that won't happen. And that is probably fine. This is
> just the rendering after all. The actual OSM data is ok and over time
> the number of errors will tend towards zero as things get edited. But
> it is something to be aware of if you see something odd in the tiles.
>
> I just hope this hasn't affected other consumers of minutely diffs. If
> Roland hadn't discovered it quickly in the overpass database, it could
> have led to some big problems.
>
> Toby
>
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Toby Murray <toby.mur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I noticed something weird in the tile rendering on osm.org a couple of
>> days ago and after looking at several things it seems that one of the
>> rendering servers (orm) is missing data. I'm wondering if I'm the only
>> one to see this or if anyone else has noticed something similar.
>>
>> What I initially noticed was a gap in a road that should not have been
>> there. It can be seen in this tile:
>> http://orm.openstreetmap.org/16/15058/25351.png
>>
>> The data in the database was never in a state with a gap. I split the
>> road to tag lane count. In the same upload the way coming in from the
>> west was shortened and a new way was created. But on orm, only the
>> shortening seems to have registered and the new way creation has
>> apparently been dropped. Compare this tile to the same tile on yevaud:
>> http://yevaud.openstreetmap.org/16/15058/25351.png
>>
>> You will see not only that the gap is filled in but yevaud also has
>> several other features that are missing on orm.
>>
>> This is not a stale tile being served up from cache. These changes
>> were made on the 16th and the tile has been rendered at least 3 times
>> since then with the most recent being earlier today (on the 21st)
>>
>> The area this happened in is Wichita, KS:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/37.6864/-97.2828
>>
>> But you will only see the gap if you get routed to orm via the OSM DNS
>> setup. See http://render.openstreetmap.org/ if you don't know which
>> one you are being routed to (it will say either orm or yevaud in the
>> first line)
>>
>> There is another gap if you pan west about two miles to the
>> interstate. Here I split the way to add a maxheight tag. Other things
>> I have uploaded since the 16th are showing up. It seems to be just
>> that one changeset that got partially applied to the rendering
>> database.
>>
>> Am I just really (un)lucky or has anyone else seen something similar?
>>
>> Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Missing data in rendering database on orm

[Toby Murray]

After talking a little bit about this on IRC with Tom and Sarah, it
appears this is related to a replication glitch that happened on
February 12th. It was mentioned on the developer mailing list:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2016-February/029087.html

The "minutely" changeset being talked about there actually contains
about 4 hours worth of changes due to some server problems that were
happening at the time. So anything that was uploaded during those 4
hours may be affected. I'm guessing the intersection of people
uploading at that time, people who land on orm instead of yevaud for
rendering and people who have actually noticed a glitch like this is
pretty small. (just me so far) But this problem could affect up to
about 340,000 objects in that diff. If objects are edited again, they
get fixed. Although if a way is edited that contains nodes that were
created during the 4 hour problem period there will still be problems
with the way until all of its child nodes are edited as well.

I was able to fix the gap I mentioned in my previous email by
uploading a diff that did nothing but bump the version number of the
way and all of its nodes.

To fix everything at once would probably take either re-applying the
last 2 weeks of diffs to orm or doing a full reimport of the rendering
database and I'm guessing that unless some other very visible problems
are discovered, that won't happen. And that is probably fine. This is
just the rendering after all. The actual OSM data is ok and over time
the number of errors will tend towards zero as things get edited. But
it is something to be aware of if you see something odd in the tiles.

I just hope this hasn't affected other consumers of minutely diffs. If
Roland hadn't discovered it quickly in the overpass database, it could
have led to some big problems.

Toby

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Toby Murray <toby.mur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I noticed something weird in the tile rendering on osm.org a couple of
> days ago and after looking at several things it seems that one of the
> rendering servers (orm) is missing data. I'm wondering if I'm the only
> one to see this or if anyone else has noticed something similar.
>
> What I initially noticed was a gap in a road that should not have been
> there. It can be seen in this tile:
> http://orm.openstreetmap.org/16/15058/25351.png
>
> The data in the database was never in a state with a gap. I split the
> road to tag lane count. In the same upload the way coming in from the
> west was shortened and a new way was created. But on orm, only the
> shortening seems to have registered and the new way creation has
> apparently been dropped. Compare this tile to the same tile on yevaud:
> http://yevaud.openstreetmap.org/16/15058/25351.png
>
> You will see not only that the gap is filled in but yevaud also has
> several other features that are missing on orm.
>
> This is not a stale tile being served up from cache. These changes
> were made on the 16th and the tile has been rendered at least 3 times
> since then with the most recent being earlier today (on the 21st)
>
> The area this happened in is Wichita, KS:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/37.6864/-97.2828
>
> But you will only see the gap if you get routed to orm via the OSM DNS
> setup. See http://render.openstreetmap.org/ if you don't know which
> one you are being routed to (it will say either orm or yevaud in the
> first line)
>
> There is another gap if you pan west about two miles to the
> interstate. Here I split the way to add a maxheight tag. Other things
> I have uploaded since the 16th are showing up. It seems to be just
> that one changeset that got partially applied to the rendering
> database.
>
> Am I just really (un)lucky or has anyone else seen something similar?
>
> Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Reporting a potential vandal (bryanpiczon)

[Toby Murray]

Most of the changesets I've looked at so far have been highly
suspicious and there is definitely a lot of damage to the map still
out there from this user. A few examples:

He tagged a random industrial building as the "South Shore Plaza" mall:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/29661237

South Shore Plaza is a well known upscale mall and already mapped here:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/44123566

He tagged a building near the Lincoln Monument as a Burger King:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/66418664

Added a place=city node for Boston in the wrong location (and this
place=city node already exists in the correct place)
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4000134306

Have you contacted the Data Working Group? They can at least issue a
ban that he must look at before being able to edit any more and
potentially revert all of the changes at once. I am adding them to
this email.

Toby


On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 7:38 AM, maning sambale
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The OSM-PH community have been monitoring who we suspect as a vandal
> using several accounts.  While in the past he mostly edit in the PH,
> we feel that the larger community should monitor since he has edited
> in other parts of the world.  Most recently, the National Mall in
> Washington, DC.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/37139218#map=15/38.8883/-77.0313
>
> We strongly believe that this person is a vandal, but would like to
> confirm the scale and impact to other parts of the world.
>
> See summary of our notes here:
> https://gist.github.com/maning/d76192c4a2cf5ba34c4c
>
> Raw document and some sample cases here:
> https://hackpad.com/Bryan-Picson-Z5Px9SzYNQC
>
> --
> cheers,
> maning in behalf of OSM-PH
> --
> "Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden
> https://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
> http://twitter.com/maningsambale
> --
>
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[OSM-talk] Missing data in rendering database on orm

[Toby Murray]

I noticed something weird in the tile rendering on osm.org a couple of
days ago and after looking at several things it seems that one of the
rendering servers (orm) is missing data. I'm wondering if I'm the only
one to see this or if anyone else has noticed something similar.

What I initially noticed was a gap in a road that should not have been
there. It can be seen in this tile:
http://orm.openstreetmap.org/16/15058/25351.png

The data in the database was never in a state with a gap. I split the
road to tag lane count. In the same upload the way coming in from the
west was shortened and a new way was created. But on orm, only the
shortening seems to have registered and the new way creation has
apparently been dropped. Compare this tile to the same tile on yevaud:
http://yevaud.openstreetmap.org/16/15058/25351.png

You will see not only that the gap is filled in but yevaud also has
several other features that are missing on orm.

This is not a stale tile being served up from cache. These changes
were made on the 16th and the tile has been rendered at least 3 times
since then with the most recent being earlier today (on the 21st)

The area this happened in is Wichita, KS:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/37.6864/-97.2828

But you will only see the gap if you get routed to orm via the OSM DNS
setup. See http://render.openstreetmap.org/ if you don't know which
one you are being routed to (it will say either orm or yevaud in the
first line)

There is another gap if you pan west about two miles to the
interstate. Here I split the way to add a maxheight tag. Other things
I have uploaded since the 16th are showing up. It seems to be just
that one changeset that got partially applied to the rendering
database.

Am I just really (un)lucky or has anyone else seen something similar?

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] Why do city names display in the local language at osm.org?

[Toby Murray]

Yeah, the tiles on osm.org just straight up render the name=* tag
which is supposed to contain the name of an object in the primary
language of the area that it is in.

I know Wikipedia has done some work on localizing maps. I believe the
way they do it is to render a map without any labels and then have
language-specific layers that have nothing but the names on them. The
client chooses which name layer to load on top of the label-less base
layer.

I'm guessing there are better ways to handle this if you go the route
of using vector tiles instead of bitmaps...

Toby


On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Steve Friedl  wrote:
> Mapping tiles are not generated on a per-user basis; they are generated for
> all users and shared.  The rendering software has to make intelligent
> decisions about how to make the maps look reasonable for everybody, and my
> suspicion is that things like city names are chosen from the local language
> of the country that the city is within, on the grounds that most people
> looking at a city live in the country.
>
>
>
> It would be great if tiles were rendered customly for everybody (I’d be able
> to see elevations in feet instead of meters), but that’s not how this one
> works.
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> From: Alan Bragg [mailto:alan.d.br...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 7:32 AM
> To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Openstreetmap 
> Subject: [Talk-us] Why do city names display in the local language at
> osm.org?
>
>
>
> My preferred language is set to "en"
>
> For example Florence Italy displays as Firenze even though it's tagged with
> many languages including en:Florence
>
> I get the same display in both the  chrome and internet explorer browsers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Maxweight in the USA

[Toby Murray]

My view is that this isn't much different than speed limits. We don't
tag maxspeed=96.5606, we tag maxspeed=60 mph. Tag what's on the sign.
The complicating factor on this is of course that "ton" has at least 3
different meanings but I would generally assume that weight
restrictions in the U.S. are tagged in short tons because that's what
is on the sign.

Toby

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> Just a heads up...
>
> There's a bit of a discussion going on at the moment as to whether it makes
> sense to store SI units (or actually a derivative - metric tons) in
> maxweight tags.  I noticed a few changes (initially to other values in the
> UK), and commented on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35009662 , and
> the person making a changes (who's the author of one of the popular routers
> using OSM data) wrote a diary entry here:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/karussell/diary/36220 .
>
> The argument in favour of the change is that storing an SI derivative makes
> the data easier to consume; my counter-arguments are that (a) it makes it
> harder for mappers to verify values and (b) anything consuming data
> shouldn't assume the data is valid anyway (for "Bobby Tables" reasons if for
> no other).
>
> Whilst doing this I noticed that a bunch of other "x tons" weight limits had
> had values changed a while back (see for example
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/32719427/history ).  That's now been
> changed to "maxweight=4.5359237" which is at least not heavier than the
> actual posted restriction.  However there are still some other integer
> values without units which implies metric tons (see for example
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/cqw ).  It may be that Pittsburgh has woken up
> one morning and decided to adopt SI units ahead of the rest of the country,
> but I doubt it.  Logically I'd expect a router encountering "maxweight=10"
> in the USA might want to interpret it as "10 US tons" rather than 10,000 kg,
> but based on the above I suspect that at least one router isn't going to do
> that.
>
> The relevant wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxweight does
> say "as of September 2014 only metric units of weight (metric tonnes or
> kilograms) are supported for this tag".  I'm unaware of any discussion prior
> to the 17 September 2014 change (not that that means that it didn't happen,
> just that I'm unaware of it).
>
> I'm not from the US, and I'm not sure what the right answer is (if as a
> community you're happy entering maxweight=4.5359237 it'd certainly make
> everyone's lives easier), so I'm posting this here and then retiring back
> across the Atlantic :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy (SomeoneElse)
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Notes: View them based on age?

[Toby Murray]

That diary comment isn't quite right. The daysClosed setting only affects
what notes get downloaded from the API. If you load a note dump file, it
will not filter them out.

However JOSM does allow you to sort the list of notes displayed in the note
panel by either date opened or last comment date. This doesn't affect the
makers displayed in the map area but might help a little.

Toby
On Oct 20, 2015 6:29 PM, "Michał Brzozowski"  wrote:

> You may file a feature request:
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues
> If you want to view them now, you can always fiddle with XPath:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/RicoElectrico/diary/34338
> If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid (although as the comment
> points out this functionality is buried in JOSM advanced settings) -
> still your load time and RAM usage will be better.
>
> Michał
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:06 AM, Dave F.  wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > Is there a way to view OSM Notes (right hand side of map) based on the
> date
> > created? It's a bit of a pain to remember which of the notes I've already
> > clicked on.
> >
> > Could either a selectable drop down menu be added of better still marker
> > colour gradation - dark red for new, getting lighter with age? In steps
> of
> > week, month, 6 months, year etc maybe?
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dave F.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Legislative districts, Land-use zoning, etc.

[Toby Murray]

OSM is not the ideal tool to be a dumping ground for all GIS data. It
excels at holding information that users can see, verify and update.
Boundaries like this cannot be seen or verified by anyone except the
government agency that originally made them. So the data gains no
benefit from being in OSM and in fact makes it more difficult to
update both the boundary data as well as non-boundary data in the
vicinity.

Yes, we do have national/state/county/city boundaries. Some people
aren't happy about this either... but they are tolerated because they
enable geocoding functionality.

Toby

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 1:19 AM, Charles P. Lamb  wrote:
> Looking thorough the OSM Wiki Map Features entry there didn't really seem to
> be features defined for such things as legislative districts, polling place
> districts, and land-use zoning. I don't think such features are peculiar to
> the USA. Am I missing something?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charles P. Lamb
> New Jersey
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Should driveways be on OSM?

[Toby Murray]

I run into this as well. If I don't see anything close to the way on
imagery I definitely have very little problem deleting them.

I also question the access=private tagging although not because of the
rendering. I mean technically it is correct I suppose but if you are
trying to route to an address at the end of a long driveway, the
router should tell you to go down the driveway. Tagging it as
access=private would probably prevent that from happening in most
routers. I would say access=destination might be more accurate however
really I think data consumers should know what highway=service and
service=driveway together mean and appropriately handle it without an
explicit access tag.

Toby

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Tom Bloom  wrote:
> TIGER drew thousands of driveways that are often simply wrong. They are
> tagged private and in my opinion spoil the map appearance with little red
> squiggles all over the place. No other map I've found includes them. Looking
> around the country, I notice some areas where they were removed, changed to
> service roads, drawn de novo, and one area (near Rosebud, OR) where they
> were inexplicably changed to living_street, which they just aren't.
>
> I've been deleting them if wildly wrong, and would like to delete all I
> encounter. Any ideas?
>
> (I mostly map in the Midwest)
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Another road classification disagreement (this time with HFCS in Kansas)

[Toby Murray]

I decided to use my county and just go retag a bunch of roads. Most of
the roads outside of the city that aren't highways were still
highway=residential from the TIGER import. I found this map on the
KDOT website (which I have permission to use as a source):
http://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/bureaus/burTransPlan/maps/county-pdf/riley.PDF

I went through and upgraded all roads marked as "Minor collectors" and
"Major collectors" from residential to tertiary. The result can best
be seen at zoom level 12:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1070359#map=12/39.4386/-96.7724

There are a few places where I diverged from the map a bit. For
example the city of Riley has no collectors marked on the KDOT map but
I still bumped the main road through it to highway=tertiary. There
were a couple of places where I didn't really think an upgrade to
tertiary was warranted but at the time I just went with it anyway. I
may go back and do some tweaking.

Overall I feel like this makes a reasonable road network. While
editing, I could often (although not always) see a visual difference
between the roads marked as collectors and those marked as "local
roads" on the KDOT map so it kind of provided a secondary source to
justify differing classifications.

Thoughts?

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Toby Murray <toby.mur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My general rule of thumb for highway tagging in rural Kansas is as
> follows. If I know nothing else about the road I start off with US
> highway = primary, Kansas highway = secondary and county roads =
> tertiary. Then adjust as needed.
>
> For example. K-10 between Lawrence and Olathe [1] is controlled
> access, dual carriageway with a 70 MPH speed limit so I would probably
> bump it from secondary to trunk although I'm not sure I can come up
> with a reason why its current tag of motorway is wrong so... sure, I'm
> ok with that.
>
> Another exception: I downgraded US 24 to secondary and upgraded K-82
> to primary between Leonardville and Riley [2] because that leg of US
> 24 through Leonardville has a lower speed limit, no shoulder
> whatsoever and is just generally a less maintained road than K-82.
>
> I suppose there is some degree of subjectivity to the "adjust as
> needed" step and things won't always match up with government opinion
> but I feel like the end result is a better representation of how the
> roads are actually built and maintained in the real world.
>
> Toby
>
> [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/38.9499/-95.0109
> [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/39.3301/-96.8853

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Re: [Talk-us] More strangeness in Baltimore

[Toby Murray]

Agreed. The 7-Eleven shop this user added (twice - once as a node,
once as a way) does not appear on the store locator on 7-eleven.com.
While it wouldn't be entirely out of the question that OSM had a newer
location than the chain's own store locator, the edits do seem very
much the same as those from the previous two accounts that were banned
so I'm pretty convinced it is the same person. Looks like Andy just
blocked him again. I'll do a quick revert of the changesets.

Toby

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Jack Burke  wrote:
> I'll put money on it being the same vandal.
> 1) The account was created today
> 2) The account profile has the following on it: "Homicide: Life On The
> Street Baltimore 1990"
>
> -jack
>
> On September 14, 2015 1:26:47 PM EDT, Andy Townsend 
> wrote:
>>
>> Can any Baltimore locals veryify or otherwise the changes in
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/34024769 ?
>>
>> It looks a similar style to the recent problematical ones there and at
>> the very least that one seems to break some bus route relations.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Andy Townsend (SomeoneElse)
>>
>>
>> 
>>
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>
>
> --
> Typos courtesy of fancy auto-spell technology.
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Another road classification disagreement (this time with HFCS in Kansas)

[Toby Murray]

My general rule of thumb for highway tagging in rural Kansas is as
follows. If I know nothing else about the road I start off with US
highway = primary, Kansas highway = secondary and county roads =
tertiary. Then adjust as needed.

For example. K-10 between Lawrence and Olathe [1] is controlled
access, dual carriageway with a 70 MPH speed limit so I would probably
bump it from secondary to trunk although I'm not sure I can come up
with a reason why its current tag of motorway is wrong so... sure, I'm
ok with that.

Another exception: I downgraded US 24 to secondary and upgraded K-82
to primary between Leonardville and Riley [2] because that leg of US
24 through Leonardville has a lower speed limit, no shoulder
whatsoever and is just generally a less maintained road than K-82.

I suppose there is some degree of subjectivity to the "adjust as
needed" step and things won't always match up with government opinion
but I feel like the end result is a better representation of how the
roads are actually built and maintained in the real world.

Toby

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/38.9499/-95.0109
[2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/39.3301/-96.8853

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[Talk-us] Another road classification disagreement (this time with HFCS in Kansas)

[Toby Murray]

Sorry to start another thread on this but I just had an exchange with
another mapper here in Kansas that could use some more opinions.

I recently reclassified US 24 west of Manhattan, KS from trunk down to
primary. NE2 had bumped it up to trunk a long time ago and I never
felt that this was right and finally got around to changing it back.
But tonight another user in Kansas commented on this changeset[1]
saying that it should stay at trunk until it hits US 281 in western
Kansas because it is classified as a "Principal Arterial" by the
functional highway classification system (HFCS). And indeed, the HFCS
page on the OSM wiki[2] does say that rural principal arterials should
be tagged as trunk

Now, I'm not necessarily opposed to taking some hints from an external
source but my big problem with this particular case is that US 81
(which US 24 intersects, at [3]) is also tagged as trunk. I don't
think this classification is disputed by anyone. But US 81 and US 24
are vastly different roads.

US 24: two lanes, undivided, 65 MPH speed limit, narrow shoulders
US 81: four lanes, divided by a 50 foot median, 70 MPH speed limit, 10
foot shoulders

I'm pretty sure US 24 also has a lot more random driveways and farm
access roads than US 81 although 81 does have some (and hence is
definitely not eligible for motorway tagging)

You can clearly see the difference between the roads in Mapillary. US
24[4] and US 81[5].

In my opinion, if these two roads are tagged with the same
classification then something is wrong with the classification system.
I'm not sure exactly what HFCS takes into consideration or who wrote
that wiki page but this doesn't seem right to me. Can someone offer a
defense of the wiki page or should it be changed?

This user has also upgraded a lot of unpaved county roads in eastern
Kansas to secondary because of HFCS which also strikes me as wrong.
You can clearly see where he has done this at zoom level 9 [6].

As I noted in the changeset discussion, this led me to encounter a
"Warning: road may flood" sign on a dirt road tagged as secondary
which just seems crazy to me.

Thoughts?

Toby

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33282153
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Functional_Classification_System
[3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/39.3638/-97.6710
[4] http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/yTCyYGiyodDhje5mk4CRBQ/photo
[5] http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/m3iNsipw17_jR0FJPWrcFQ/photo
[6] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=9/39.1162/-95.5811

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Re: [Talk-us] understanding administrative boundary relations

[Toby Murray]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Ray Kiddy  wrote:
>
> Strangely, I am finding that some of the cities in California _are_ in
> the system, but as ways and not as relations. This seems odd, but we
> will see.

Well the primary reason to use relations in boundaries is to reduce
duplication. So if two cities share a border, the same way can be used
in both relations. Sometimes people even use roads or streams or other
physical ways as part of boundary relations. I personally usually
avoid this because I like having boundary relations completely
separate from other things so that they are easier to update in the
future. So for a city that is not part of a metro area with adjoining
cities, it is perfectly fine to just used a closed way instead of a
relation for the boundary. At the end of the day, both ways and
relations generally get turned into either linestrings (if linear) or
multipolygons (if closed) in things like a postgis database or a
shapefile.

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] understanding administrative boundary relations

[Toby Murray]

The area you linked to has no boundary data in OSM. You don't state
this in your email but by pulling up the TIGER shapefile, it looks
like you are wanting school district boundaries? I see one runs
through the area you linked to, in the shapefile. School districts
were not imported into OSM. The only things that were imported from
TIGER is roads, state, county and city boundaries.

Administrative boundaries in OSM have always been a tricky subject.
OSM thrives on information that can be verified by someone standing on
the ground, looking around and seeing something that can be put into
the map. Administrative boundaries are (usually) not that way. They
are imaginary lines drawn on the map. Sometimes they follow physical
features but often they don't. So the only source to verify or update
them is to go back to the imaginary line drawer and ask for an update.

Because of this, I think boundaries in OSM tend to deteriorate in
quality quicker than other features. Sometimes people modify a way
that is part of a boundary relation and don't realize that they are
affecting the boundary. I have done a lot of work fixing up boundaries
(mostly county) across the country and there are definitely a million
ways to break them.

If you want an example of an admin boundary in OSM, here is the
Sunnyvale city boundary relation:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/112145

Toby


On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Ray Kiddy  wrote:
>
> Hello -
>
> I am on a quest to learn more about how administrative boundaries can
> be managed as relations. I have a bit of experience with these
> things, but I am discovering the limitations of my knowledge also.
> Which was the point, actually.
>
> I would like to be able to suggest that governmental entities could
> manage their district geo data with OSM. I am interested in seeing why
> this does not work now and what can be done. Well, and it would be
> interesting to find out why so few cities in California actually seem
> to have a relation. Or perhaps I am missing it.
>
> I know that TIGER data was imported into OSM, but I am seeing some
> disconnects. To be precise:
>
> Using QGIS, I can load the vector files (SHP) from the following as two
> different layers:
>
> ftp://ftp2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2015/ELSD/tl_2015_06_elsd.zip
> ftp://ftp2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2015/EDGES/tl_2015_06085_edges.zip
>
> Using JOSM, I can see the "Sunnyvale East Channel":
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/37.364537971457935/-122.02110206207291
>
> I cannot see how to get the id of this way from JOSM and its tag info
> seems to be:
>
> boat=no
> intermittent=yes
> name=Sunnyvale East Channel
> scvwd:FACILITY=2026
> scvwd:ROUTEID=20260
> waterway=drain
>
> And in QGIS, I can see the same feature (removing empty TIGER fields):
>
> wkt_geomLINESTRING
> -122.02132171 37.364089025
> -122.0209720001465 37.364640178
> -122.019929475 37.366293634
> -122.0196390001217 37.366754025
> STATEFP 6
> COUNTYFP85
> TLID618169892
> TFIDL   229597201
> TFIDR   230278901
> MTFCC   P0001
> HYDROFLGN
> RAILFLG N
> ROADFLG N
> OLFFLG  N
> EXTTYP  N
> GCSEFLG N
> OFFSETL N
> OFFSETR N
> TNIDF   39083667
> TNIDT   409312163
>
> But there seems to be no connection between the feature in OSM and the
> TIGER data. So, TIGER data was used to define new features? But perhaps
> TIGER id data was not merged onto existing features?
>
> I am certainly not seeing "tiger:tlid"="618169892" associated with this
> object in OSM anywhere.
>
> So, if I want to give the Sunnyvale District the relation that defines
> its boundaries, I cannot use TIGER data to find those lines? Or rather,
> I must use the TIGER data and find the line in OSM and set up the
> connection myself?
>
> Ok Any other suggestions?
>
> thanx - ray
>
>
> ps:
>
> My early stumblings are in my diary:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/rayKiddy/diary
>
> Please excuse any ignorance on my part. I know a bit about the GIS
> practices of the state of California. I have a very small bit of
> experience with Santa Clara County. I have a smidgen of knowledge about
> the city of Sunnyvale. And I have more exposure to the Sunnyvale
> Elementary School District, having once been on the Board. And I
> develop database software and am interested in mapping applications.
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Reply-to header

[Toby Murray]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 2:12 AM, Max abonneme...@revolwear.com wrote:

 AFAIK this is the standard mailman configuration and not different
 from other lists. the reply-to you mention is mot in every mail from
 this list, but only in those which are from this person. that's expected.

 You should respect netiquette and make a new thread when starting a
 new topic. Don't just hit reply on a random email from the list and
 change subject.

 m.


 On 2015년 08월 24일 13:53, Balaco Baco wrote:
 P. S.: this mailing list does not add a Reply-to header to
 mail messages, as I'm used to. So I initially sent the answer
 to just one person. This should be changed - may it not confuse
 the majority of users!?

 It normally does, not sure what happened here.

 All messages I received from OSM list does not have the reply-to
 header with the list address.

 And to make sure of this, now I just opened 10 of them, among the
 most recent, and checked their full headers. Only one of those
 messages contain a reply-to header, and it is not the list address.
 It is:

 Reply-To: j...@jfeldredge.com

The reply-to header is a per-list configuration item. So some lists
set it and some don't. The tagging and HOT lists set it to the list
address. The talk and talk-us lists do not set it. It gets brought up
every few months by someone who either replied to the list when they
didn't want to or replied to an individual when they wanted to reply
to the list.

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] A note about bags and security at SOTM-US

[Toby Murray]

Well ok, I guess this is primarily targeted at anyone who was planning
on bringing a backpack. I'm sure I can fit what I need for a day in a
bag this size as well. But any normal backpack is going to be 16-18
inches tall and too large for the UN. This is what I have used at
previous conferences because it's what I happen to have and I've seen
plenty of others with backpacks as well so I thought it was worth a
warning. And while my laptop bag IS on the large side, it is by no
means an unreasonable size to grab as a carry-on for an airplane ride
and expect to use at the conference once you get there. Again, I've
certainly seen 16-18 briefcases and laptop bags at other conferences
so it is worth double checking.

Toby

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org wrote:

 maximum size for all bags as:
 14 (35cm) wide x 13 (33cm) high x 4 (10cm) deep

 That is *TINY*! I mean even most Hello Kitty backpacks for children
 are 16 tall.


 This is slightly larger than my messenger bag (or a briefcase), which I don't 
 consider to be tiny. I can comfortably fit a laptop, a book, a notepad, plus 
 various sundries with room to spare.

 Maybe I'm crazy, but that seems wholly adequate for a day at a conference.

 d.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] A note about bags and security at SOTM-US

[Toby Murray]

Well ok, I guess this is primarily targeted at anyone who was planning
on bringing a backpack. I'm sure I can fit what I need for a day in a
bag this size as well. But any normal backpack is going to be 16-18
inches tall and too large for the UN. This is what I have used at
previous conferences because it's what I happen to have and I've seen
plenty of others with backpacks as well so I thought it was worth a
warning. And while my laptop bag IS on the large side, it is by no
means an unreasonable size to grab as a carry-on for an airplane ride
and expect to use at the conference once you get there. Again, I've
certainly seen 16-18 briefcases and laptop bags at other conferences
so it is worth double checking.

Toby

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 11:58 PM, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org wrote:

 maximum size for all bags as:
 14 (35cm) wide x 13 (33cm) high x 4 (10cm) deep

 That is *TINY*! I mean even most Hello Kitty backpacks for children
 are 16 tall.


 This is slightly larger than my messenger bag (or a briefcase), which I don't 
 consider to be tiny. I can comfortably fit a laptop, a book, a notepad, plus 
 various sundries with room to spare.

 Maybe I'm crazy, but that seems wholly adequate for a day at a conference.

 d.

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[OSM-talk] A note about bags and security at SOTM-US

[Toby Murray]

I was just preparing for my trip to SOTM-US and ran across something
in the fine print that caught me by surprise so I thought I'd share.
The email from the conference organizers made a note that we can not
take large backpacks into the building. I assumed this meant you
couldn't take the kind of backpack you would use for a weekend hike
but that a standard school backpack was ok. But then I found the UN's
security web page[1] and it gives a maximum size for all bags as:
14 (35cm) wide x 13 (33cm) high x 4 (10cm) deep

That is *TINY*! I mean even most Hello Kitty backpacks for children
are 16 tall. My laptop bag exceeds this size. I'm pretty sure I've
seen purses larger than this.

So now I'm sitting here trying to decide if I need to go buy a smaller
laptop bag tomorrow. Or does anyone know if perhaps registered
conference attendees are allowed slightly larger items than the
general population coming in for a tour? Or maybe they'll let an inch
or two slide? If they enforce it strictly, they probably have bins
that are exactly this size that everything has to fit into to go
through the x-ray machine...

Anyway, I guess pack light and I hope to see you in New York!

Toby

[1] http://visit.un.org/content/security

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Re: [OSM-talk] Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue

[Toby Murray]

Yeah, I noticed this about the Craigslist rendering a while ago. In my case
it was ways tagged as oneway=-1. Since the ways were not members of any
relations and there was no other reason for them to be tagged this way, I
reversed the way directions and changed the tag to oneway=yes but obviously
this doesn't apply to the situation that started this thread.

FYI: last time I checked, Craigslist also had random problems rendering
water. Some lakes just don't show up in their map even though they are
tagged correctly and don't have any tricky geometry. This has generated
more than a few notes. I made a comment about this in the map feedback
forum and one of their devs hopped on to IRC the next day and said that
they were aware of it but hadn't figured out what the problem was.

Toby


On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 4:35 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
wrote:


 2015-06-01 9:55 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com:

 Part of that work could be (or is) done by the validators in the editors.



 +1
 If you look at the actual values for oneway, very few are obviously
 mistagged, e.g. oneway=yes;no (32) and no;yes (111) - these result very
 likely from merging streets with different properties. I have tested this
 with current JOSM, if you combine a way with oneway=yes and one with
 oneway=no you will get to a window which asks to choose from yes, no,
 /none/, /all/ and you have to deliberately choose all to get an
 ambiguous value. iD is working similarly, but it doesn't let you decide, it
 automatically creates a double value (yes;no), and the direction is taken
 from the first way selected (e.g. 1st way selected is oneway=no and 2nd way
 is oneway=yes and pointing in the opposite direction will revert the
 direction of the oneway=yes way without notice and will create a oneway
 value of no;yes also without notice. I have opened a ticket for this
 behaviour: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2670  )

 cheers,
 Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapillary layers

[Toby Murray]

Not that I am aware of. Their API generally returns (geo)json. This is what
is used on their website. Although by the looks of it, the traffic sign
stuff is in v2 of their API which isn't documented on their Developers
page. But I did find documentation on it here:
https://a.mapillary.com/#get-searchimor

There is a GSoC project proposal this year to make a JOSM plugin for
Mapillary. I'm not sure what the status on that is right now.

Toby

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:16 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 Is there a way to get a transparent WMS of locations Mapillary has
 detected a traffic sign?

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Re: [Talk-us] Mappy Hour - Next Monday

[Toby Murray]

I was just wondering if there was a mappy hour tonight and found this
email. Thought I'd send out a ping in case others weren't sure either. Hope
to see some of you tonight :)

Toby

On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 1:26 AM, Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com
wrote:


 On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:

 OpenHistoricalMap. Read about it here:
 http://www.openhistoricalmap.org/about but better still, come join the
 Mappy Hour next week.


 That is great! nice to hear about that project. Good job!


 --
 James Michael DuPont
 Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://www.flossk.org
 Saving Wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion
 http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Quality of OSM Notes

[Toby Murray]

On Feb 20, 2015 1:37 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:

 A fair number of the notes in my areas were people (usually correctly)
identifying the business at a given location.
 Perhaps an easy form could prompt them to enter complete data.  This
would unburden the note system.

I believe it was Ian Dees who came up with http://onosm.org/ to address
this. It collects detailed information and then creates an actionable note
with that information.

As for useless notes, most of the ones I've seen and closed come from
Craigslist. They are the ones that start with bounds: and a URL which
used to show a box on the map to indicate the users viewport when they
created the note but now just shows the map centered on the note. Some of
them are complaining about how their listing isn't showing right on the
Craigslist website. The marginally useful ones are the ones that say my
neighborhood is missing

Toby
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Re: [OSM-talk] Galaxy S3 for Mapping

[Toby Murray]

I'm not sure if this was an issue with all S3s but mine had a tendency to
jump back to the last place where a GPS lock was acquired for up to about
10 seconds when I first turned on an app that required GPS positioning. Not
the last place I was when using GPS but the place I was when the GPS system
was booted up the last time. Seemed like an odd thing but it happened
consistently. But yeah, running a GPS logging app in the background to keep
a constant lock will probably help. At the expense of battery life of
course.

Toby

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 10:04 PM, Mike Thompson miketh...@gmail.com wrote:

  I ensure I leave the app osmtracker tracking in the background, at least
  this way I can ensure that the GPS is constantly trying to get a fix,
 Thanks!  That makes sense. I will try that next time.

 Mike

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Re: [Talk-us] Denver Area Relation Assistance

[Toby Murray]

I did a quick fix for the hole in the Denver, Denver County and Adams
county relations. I may take another look at the area tonight. I saw a few
oddities although I don't think they are related to your edit. I don't
think way 321010352 should have aeroway tags on it since it is a member of
a relation with those tags. There is also an odd multipolygon relation
(112849) in the area that I suspect is mostly a duplicate of the Aurora
boundary.

Toby

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Jim McAndrew j...@loc8.us wrote:

 Kristen,

 If nobody else takes this on, I can look at it this weekend.

 --
 Jim

 On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Kam, Kristen krist...@telenav.com
 wrote:

 Good Morning OSMers,

 A Telenav data integrity check picked up geometry issues associated with
 the Denver International Airport Route relation. We found that the culprit
 was the following changesets:

 * http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/27705328
 * http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/27713462

 I contacted the user who said essentially said the changesets were
 committed accidentally and didn't know how to reverse them. In any case, I
 reverted the deletions by creating  _new_  OSM ways that are duplicates
 (tags  geometries) of the ways that were deleted.  The two ways are:

 *Denver International Airport (321010352, v1)
 *321010349, v1

 These new ways (321010352, 321010349) are duplicates of ways that were
 part of the following relations:

 *Adams County (1411346)
 *Denver County (1411339)
 *Denver (253750)
 *Denver International Airport (112192)

 I went ahead and added the new ways to the Denver International Airport
 relation member list. However, I am not very confident on reconstructing
 the other boundary relations' member lists.  That said, I am writing to ask
 if anyone can pitch in on fixing the other four relations. Thank you in
 advance!

 Best,

 Kristen
 ---
 Kristen Kam
 OSM Profile → http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/KristenK

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Re: [Talk-us] Another use of OpenStreetMap

[Toby Murray]

Where did you find a link to that attribution page? I went looking and
found a flight tracker on their website that is actually serving up tiles
straight from osm.org. Not quite in line with tile usage policies I suppose
but they DO have attribution on the map at least.

To see it you have to find an in-progress flight. Right now this link
should work for a few more hours (until the flight reaches LA):
https://www.aa.com/travelInformation/gatesTimesSubmit.do?flightNumber=245

Toby

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 6:01 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote:

 American Airlines flight tracker:
 http://maptiles-a.flightstats-ops.com/attribution.html
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Re: [Talk-us] Another use of OpenStreetMap

[Toby Murray]

Oh, the -ops in the URL threw me off. Your link is to the attribution page
for flightstats.com, not American Airlines. And flightstats.com is serving
up their own tiles. They started using OSM back in 2011 or 2012 when Google
started charging for maps. Wm Leler from flightstats.com presented at the
2012 SOTM-US conference in Portland. Links to the presentation are on the
wiki:
http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_U.S._2012

Toby

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:

 Where did you find a link to that attribution page? I went looking and
 found a flight tracker on their website that is actually serving up tiles
 straight from osm.org. Not quite in line with tile usage policies I
 suppose but they DO have attribution on the map at least.

 To see it you have to find an in-progress flight. Right now this link
 should work for a few more hours (until the flight reaches LA):
 https://www.aa.com/travelInformation/gatesTimesSubmit.do?flightNumber=245

 Toby

 On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 6:01 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote:

 American Airlines flight tracker:
 http://maptiles-a.flightstats-ops.com/attribution.html
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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Toby Murray]

Has anyone tried contacting them yet? If not, I can. I've had good luck
recently. I got geocaching.com to update their About maps page to reflect
our new license and got the Kansas City Star to change the layout of their
attribution so it wasn't hidden behind content any more. All it took was a
quick note through their contact us forms.

Toby

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Simone Cortesi sim...@cortesi.com wrote:

 On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
  Just noticed this and took a quick glance, didn't see any obvious signs
 that
  there was any attribution on the map at
 
 http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/dui-case-omaha-police-arrest-man-who-was-driving-on/article_e660b1c6-8534-11e4-b4b3-1fa3417935b4.html
 ,
  which after scrolling over to more familiar territory, definitely
 appears to
  be from OpenStreetMap.
 
  Could we get a second pair of eyes on this and maybe someone in the area
  contact the paper about getting us some credit on that?

 as you ca see by looking at the source frame
 http://omahacrimereport.com/mockingbird-hills/hbug
 the data is undoubtedly OSM data. has worldwide coverage with clear
 distinctive features in mapping. and maps tiles are provided by
 stamen.

 --
 -S

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Re: [OSM-talk] Omaha World-Herald using OSM without attribution

[Toby Murray]

Well, I sent an email to the address listed on the about page and got a
quick response. Apparently there was attribution originally but it somehow
got dropped when they did a recent update. He understands open licensing
and attribution and was very apologetic about it getting dropped. Hopefully
it will be fixed soon.

What I say when I send messages like this stresses the fact that we aren't
just copyright pedants but that we view the attribution as a way to help us
build our community which will in turn lead to a better map for them.

Toby

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
wrote:


 On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 8:30 AM, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote:

 Don't want to start a battle here, but I thought best practises where « ©
 OSM contributors » directly on the map, clearly visible? I don't see
 anything close to that today, even with the big map they have on their site.
 https://www.geocaching.com/map/default.aspx#?ll=46.31658,-1.18652z=5


 Geocaching doesn't follow our recommendations, but they to give
 attribution, as Toby pointed out on their about page. Not only that they
 give links to start contributing to OSM. That might seem nice, but when you
 look at their business practices, it says a lot. They make their money from
 paid subscribers. Free subscribers get OSM maps, while paid subscribers get
 to choose between OSM and Google. As we continue to build the worlds best
 map, more people will decide free is actually a much better bargain.

 A few geocachers have attended our meetups, but I think most geocachers
 are don't want to make better maps since the whole premise is to hide
 something. Nothing worse that a map with a trail that leads directly to the
 cache.

 BTW - I notice that they use state highway shields, at least in Washington
 State. It would be nice to see us add shields to OSM.

 Clifford


 --
 @osm_seattle
 osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
 OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: [Talk-us] New I.D Feature

[Toby Murray]

On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 12:35 AM, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com wrote:


 It is unfortunate that importers are dropping values like addr:city and
 addr:state during US imports.  Especially when they appear to have clean
 data at the time of import.  There are other users of the OSM data than
 just Nominatim.  I imagine that our data looks crappy to a person wanting
 addresses without the concerns or abilities of GIS applications.


To be clear, addr:city *IS* being used on imports and is useful
information. Postal addresses for cities often extend far beyond the
physical city boundaries and therefore can not be inferred by use of
boundary relations. This is not the case with state and country which means
the information in these tags is duplicated data.

4.) Though not confirmed by me, it feels like to me that European addr:city
 values actually mean a city boundary.  I am guessing Nominatim prefers
 addr:city over is_in tags because of my perceived idea that European
 addr:city values more closely match the actual jurisdiction geometric
 area.  What does addr:city in the US mean then?  The jurisdiction of the
 POI or the postal value for the POI?


Nominatim actually does not correctly use addr:city. You are correct in
that it does assume a better match between physical border and postal city
address. What happens is it actually puts city information on *roads* based
on boundary relations and place=* nodes. Then it links individual address
points to the roads. The addr:city tags on POIs and building outlines is
actually completely ignored. This leads to things like this address not
being found if you search for it in Manhattan, KS:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2209430502

On the other hand, this one on the next street over is found because I
added an addr:city tag to the road:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2209427353
road:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/13226787

I consider this to be a nominatim bug and haven't attempted to do a mass
tagging of roads with addr:city because I see this as essentially tagging
for the renderer.


Toby
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Re: [Talk-us] New I.D Feature

[Toby Murray]

This thread seems like a storm in a teacup. From a data perspective
addr:state is not really needed. Nominatim in particular and probably other
geocoders as well assign it automatically based on state (admin_level=4)
boundary relations. These relations are also tagged with ref=2 letter
code which is why searching for something in Manhattan, KS works in
nominatim just as well as Manhattan, Kansas

The addr;state field has generally been left off of address imports. Adding
the field in iD to reduce user input errors might be nice and a good idea
but the addr:state tag that results from it is of very little value.

Toby


On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 1:18 AM, Minh Nguyen m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
wrote:

 On 2014-11-06 20:17, Elliott Plack wrote:

 Thinking more on this, and using my experience in the foursquare
 superuser editing community, trying to have a single state type entity
 is really quite hard to scale globally. Political boundaries and
 administrative levels vary all over the world, and trying to establish a
 single name for a smaller political unit than the country is really
 challenging. State? Province? Municipality? There are many names for
 what a US State is (if you can really compare it out), and so to use
 addr:state does seem fairly USA focused.


 iD supports country-specific address formats. The State field only
 appears for features in the U.S., while Canadian address get a Province
 field. Vietnamese addresses get separate fields for subdistrict, district,
 city, and province, befitting the customary address format there.

  Before the state showed up in iD, I had assumed someone could just
 easily derive the US state from the postal code.


 That would be the case if everyone entered ZIP codes. However, I got this
 field added [1] because its absence was confusing inexperienced mappers,
 leading to inconsistent or erroneous data entry. For example, people were
 setting addr:city to Youngstown, Ohio or Dublin, OH [2][3], or setting
 addr:postcode to OH 45202, OH, or Ohio [4][5][6]. This happened
 primarily in iD but also to a lesser extent in Potlatch, which also lacks a
 State field in simple mode.

 [1] https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/2402
 [2] http://osm.org/node/2647332019/history
 [3] http://osm.org/node/2152729301/history
 [4] http://osm.org/node/2573293336/history
 [5] http://osm.org/node/392309592/history
 [6] http://osm.org/node/357466455/history

 --
 m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us



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Re: [OSM-talk] GoPro video traces?

[Toby Murray]

I am interested in this as well. I have two Biking Across Kansas tours
worth of video and GPS traces that I still haven't gotten around to
processing into map data yet. I briefly looked at the JOSM video plugin a
while ago and, like someone else reported, couldn't get it working. Maybe
once I finish my current project of getting support for OSM notes into
JOSM-core, I'll take a look at it again...

Toby


On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 5:20 AM, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote:

 There are many people who record both a gps trace and a video of their
 itinerary.
 Do you think it would be viable to use these videos as a sort of street
 view by associating the frames to a location? When there is no gps trace,
 it could be done by interpolation, defining synchronization points between
 map and video.

 It is not 360°, but at least there would be some images of remote areas.

 Cheers,
 Micru

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[Talk-us] Presenting your new OSM-US board

[Toby Murray]

Voting closed on the OSM-US board election last night. Michael Collinson
and I acted as election observers and we are both satisfied that the
election was carried out properly. So today I am happy to announce our new
board members:

Alyssa Wright
Martijn van Exel
Alex Barth
Ian Dees
Eleanor Tutt

More information and some notes from Michael about the election are up on
the openstreetmap.us blog:
http://openstreetmap.us/2014/10/election-results/

Please join me in thanking the outgoing board members for their service to
the OSM community in the US over the past year and welcome the new members
to the challenges ahead for next year.


Toby
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Re: [OSM-talk] NY Times OSM Credits

[Toby Murray]

As of right now I see Source: Map data from OpenStreetMap. right under
the map. I guess this means they fixed it pretty quickly after being
notified. Yay!

Toby

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:11 PM, Robert Banick rban...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi all,

 I'm forwarding this to contacts at the NYT graphics desk. I know the NYT
 team are big fans of OSM and even attended this year's SOTM-US,  so it's
 probably an honest mistake. I'll ask them to respond directly.

 Cheers,
 Robert
 On Sep 15, 2014 10:49 PM, Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 2014-09-15 18:51 GMT+02:00 hyan...@gmail.com hyan...@gmail.com:
  Hi OSM mappers!
 
  I'm very happy that several institutions use OSM map to show my city,
  http://bit.ly/cartagena_col Now a just realize that the map used by NY
 Times
  in this article
 
 
 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/travel/things-to-do-in-36-hours-in-cartagena-colombia.html?module=SearchmabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C{%222%22%3A%22RI%3A15%22}_r=0
 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/travel/things-to-do-in-36-hours-in-cartagena-colombia.html?module=SearchmabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C%7B%222%22%3A%22RI%3A15%22%7D_r=0
 
  is created with OSM data.  As author I can recognize vectors and
 polygons
  that only exist in OSM for my city.  NY Times used in other ocassions
 OSM
  maps ¿they miss this time to put correct credits? ¿should we notify the
  issue?

 Yes, you should. First, look for an e-mail contact address and ask
 politely. I think that more experienced users on this list can also be
 of help.

 Cristian

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Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits

[Toby Murray]

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:


 2014-09-15 16:59 GMT+02:00 Ed Hillsman hills...@pobox.com:

 I agree there is a need to have a way to deal with this. Where I have
 checked a street, in both directions, for a posted speed limit and found
 none, I tag the street as maxspeed=unposted, source:maxspeed=survey. This
 makes it clear that the street has been checked in the field and found not
 to have a posted speed limit.



 one problem I could see with that approach is that the information density
 in your 2 tags is very low (the unposted value doesn't say anything about
 the actual speed limit and the survey-value could be seen as implicit for
 this kind of tag). IMHO putting an actual limit into the maxspeed key is
 valueable, regardless whether this is signposted or an implicit limit,
 because this is the speed information that most drivers on that road will
 be interested in (typically).


I may have some locational bias on this because as far as I know, Kansas
does not have any default speed limits and it is fairly uncommon to see a
(paved) road without a speed limit sign somewhere along it.

So that being said, I'm a fan of putting a maxspeed=number tag on
everything. Leaving it up to data consumers to interpret the thousands of
potential local defaults around the world doesn't seem like a good argument
to me. And yes, in urban areas a maxspeed tag is likely to be less useful
but most of our data consumers aren't going to have a historical, indexed
by time of day archive of user traces to extract realistic data from. And
as far as I am aware, there is no open repository of such information. So a
maxspeed tag is at least a good starting point. I don't see the data
maintenance being any different from most of our other data. If it is
actually used in applications (such as OsmAnd or on Garmin devices) then
any errors are going to be fairly visible to users which leads to feedback
and fixing of data.

Toby
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Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Toby Murray]

I opened an issue about this a year ago and apparently it came up in an EWG
meeting as well. But talk and issues don't write code.

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/385

Toby
On Aug 16, 2014 8:10 PM, colliar colliar4e...@aol.com wrote:

 Am 16.08.2014 08:28, schrieb Maarten Deen:
  On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
  This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to
  cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the
  same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes
  can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
  some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app
  are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.
 
  And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the
  message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have
  to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.

 Think any app that creates notes should have a proper user with some
 information on the user's page and like wise an email address to contact.

 This way users could still create nodes anonymously but we would reach
 the person with power.

 cu colliar



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Re: [Talk-us] Road abbreviations

[Toby Murray]

I would say the primary use of address data in OSM is geocoding, not mail
delivery. There may be legitimate differences between a street name and the
address of a house along that street but abbreviations are not a legitimate
difference. The Census Bureau also has a list of 503 official
abbreviations[1]. Which one should we use?

The answer is: Neither. It is always easier to go from full names to
abbreviations for display than to go the other way around. (See Mapquest
tiles - they abbreviate street names) Therefore we should always store
things un-abbreviated. No ambiguity, no questions about which list of
abbreviations, no one making their own abbreviations. Everything is
explicit.

[1]
https://github.com/ToeBee/ogr2osm-translations/blob/master/tiger2012_abbrv.csv

Toby



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:22 PM, David K vidthe...@gmail.com wrote:

 The United States Postal Service prefers addresses to be written with
 abbreviations used, and they maintain a list of official abbreviations. I
 suppose they really only care about addresses written on physical mail, but
 then again this is the primary purpose of mail addresses.

 I know of multiple examples of places where the street name in the
 official addresses of houses on a street does not exactly match the name of
 the street itself. There is therefore no reason to insist these values
 should match.

 My conclusion is that address data should appear in the data as it
 properly does on a piece of mail, which includes using USPS standard
 abbreviations, and deviating from the road name in other ways where the
 postmaster has prescribed such deviation.

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Re: [Talk-us] strange dead link in wiki.openstreetmap.org

[Toby Murray]

I see it on admin level 6 not 5.

The way that page is constructed makes it a little harder to track down.
That table isn't in the page you linked to but is some kind of template
included in the page. I'm still not quite sure how all that works but the
table and its history can be viewed outside the context of the admin
boundaries page at:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Admin_level_10

Inspecting the history of that table, I found the edit where this was
changed:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AAdmin_level_10diff=995991oldid=981518

It looks like some kind of search/replace gone bad or something. Not sure.
But I have edited the table to put the appropriate link back in. Looks like
wikipedia has changed since then and there is now a separate page for
independent cities in the US instead of it being a section on the general
independent cities page so I went ahead and linked to that.

Toby



On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 9:12 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net
wrote:

  in the row for the United States in this table on admin boundaries:


 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative#10_admin_level_values_for_specific_countries

 there is a dead wikipedia link in the column for admin level 5,
   Brillant com la purpurina cities
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brillant_com_la_purpurina_city#United_States.
 i'm not getting anything meaningful
 out of google to explain this, and am reluctant to mess with it because
 i don't know what it's about. hopefully someone here is knowledgable
 enough to fix this properly.

 thanks,
richard

 -- rwe...@averillpark.net
  Averill Park Networking - GIS  IT Consulting
  OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
  Java - Web Applications - Search


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Re: [Talk-us] Road abbreviations

[Toby Murray]

I believe this was an import done in 2009. Here is an example changeset
that is obviously an address import in the area:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/3407483

The import is documented on the import catalog page[1] on the wiki and
mentioned on the California imports page[2] as well. It isn't a recent
rogue import so please don't send angry messages. This was done before the
first TIGER name expansion bot was run (in 2010) so I'm not really sure if
the no abbreviations consensus had been solidified at that point.

But yeah, it should be fixed and it will take a bot to do so.

Toby

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/California/Import


On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 9:32 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
wrote:


 On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:22 AM, Hans De Kryger 
 hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote:

 I just came across a import of address data in San Diego. I checked the
 data and all of it is using road abbreviations. Is that normal?


 Not normal nor acceptable. I would suggest sending a message to the
 importer asking them to stop and fix what they imported.

 As Serge suggested, send a link an area in San Diego with the bad
 formating.

 Clifford

 --
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 osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
 OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Toby Murray]

Interesting. The coverage of these notes is almost global. I don't see any
in South America or Australia but otherwise there are some on each
continent.

I also see some reported speed limits in the U.S. in km/h which is most
likely not correct.

Once upon a time I suggested adding a kind of created_by type of field to
notes that would eventually be required for 3rd party applications posting
anonymous notes. But it seems no code has magically appeared to do this yet.

Toby


On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form Incorrect
 speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h.
 Here's a search query:

 http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is

 As they all are generated from a template, I guess this is some app
 which allows users to report back errors.
 But it remains a mystery: Who is author of this software?

 As you can see, there are quite a lot of 0 km/h notes, so I am not
 particularly enthusiastic about validity of the data.

 I would rather suggest that the author either made an account for
 their app or otherwise stated in the body of a note. And for goodness'
 sake, validate what your users input against obvious errors ;-)

 Cheers,
 Michał

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[Talk-us] OSM mention in NPR's All Tech Considered

[Toby Murray]

It isn't the best presentation of OSM ever but we were mentioned yesterday
in All Tech Considered. We are seeing a bit of a spike in new users today
because of it. So watch out for new users in your area!

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/07/07/329501435/from-pen-and-paper-to-3-d-look-whos-challenging-google-maps

New user graph set up by Ian:
https://www.stathat.com/sh/8cL88IbZ2FkauuqK

Toby
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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik Lowzoom TIles - proof of concept

[Toby Murray]

This rendering has highlighted inconsistent tagging in county borders in
the U.S.  However the inconsistency is only on member ways. The county
boundary relations are very consistent but don't seem to be used in
rendering. Should they be? I do like that counties are a little more
prominent than on osm.org. Right now rendering seems to be based on the
admin_level=6 tag on ways only. Look at the difference between Colorado and
Kansas at zooms 7-10:

http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=7lat=38.0209lon=-102.2259layers=B000FFF

Whoever originally did the county border relations in Kansas deleted the
admin_level=6 tag from the ways. I did the ones in Colorado and left it
there. At z11+ it seems that the relations are used. Or perhaps it is just
a generic rendering of the boundary=administrative tag which I think is
still on most of the member ways.

And actually I just noticed that this affects all admin boundaries. If you
go to z5, there are a lot of state borders missing as well as the US/Canada
border:

http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=5lat=42.64191lon=-84.04284layers=B000FFF

Is this a tagging problem or a rendering problem?

Toby


On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 4:02 AM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr
wrote:

 I slightly modified the boundary rendering
 I also added islands and archipelago rendering, which makes seas a bit
 less empty...

 Example:
 http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=7lat=58.13383lon=-2.9452layers=B0FFF

 Work still in progress... and feedback (with permalinks) welcome !


 2013/7/4 Michael Kugelmann michaelk_...@gmx.de:
  Am 04.07.2013 11:18, schrieb Christian Quest:
 
  Here is zoom 7 (others are in the render_list queue):
 
  to me this looks really nice and a huge improvement to the current OSM
  default lowzoom rendering!
 
 
  Best regards,
  Michael.
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Nominatim in CDP

[Toby Murray]

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
wrote:

 I can not search for an address in part of unincorporated King County, WA
 when using the postal city.

 Fails - 7732 234th Place Northeast, Redmond, WA

 The search works when omitting the postal city. The search returns the
 CDP, Union Hill-Novelty Hill at the correct location.

 Passes - 7732 234th Place Northeast, WA

 The building is tagged as follows:
 addr:city=Redmond
 addr:housenumber=7732
 addr:street=234th Place Northeast
 addr:postcode=98053
 name=7732

 Is this a problem with nominatim or the CDP boundary?



I have nothing to add to the CDP discussion but that is not your problem
here. I looked at this after my own address import. This is definitely a
Nominatim issue. What happens is that Nominatim associates address points
with roads. In order to reduce duplication, some information is associated
with roads instead of on the individual address points themselves. This
includes addr:city which is assigned to roads based on containment within
an administrative boundary, not based on any addr:city tags on address
nodes.

You could fix this by adding an addr:city tag to the road that these
addresses belong to. This overrides any admin boundary containment. However
this seems like a case of tagging for the geocoder and I think Nominatim
needs to be changed to make this problem better. Like, if all addresses
being associated with a given road have the same addr:city tag on them then
it should carry that over to the road and override anything Nominatim comes
up with on its own.

As an example I did add an addr:city tag to one road:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/13226787

Notice that if you search for an address along Cottonwood Circle with
Manhattan in the search (ex: 3700 Cottonwood Circle, Manhattan, KS) it
finds it. But if you search for an address on the neighboring road (ex:
6001 Stony Brook Drive, Manhattan, KS)  it finds nothing until you remove
the Manhattan at which point it finds the address but reports it to be
simply in Riley County.

Toby
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Re: [Talk-us] OSM Attribution

[Toby Murray]

Well it doesn't surprise me that google doesn't see any attribution, even
if they had it. The only thing I can access without an account is the front
page and their help site at squareup.com. And the only mention I see of
maps in the help docs is definitely a google map (
https://squareup.com/help/en-us/article/5172-browse-the-square-market-online
)

Did they recently switch to OSM?

Toby



On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:

 It looks like Square is using OSM from MapBox in receipt emails without
 attribution on the map, or on the website anywhere:

 https://www.google.com/#q=openstreetmap+site:square.com

 I’m going to reach out as I know some people there.

 Steve

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Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths

[Toby Murray]

Wait, what is the consensus method for tagging sidewalks? I haven't done a
lot of them but I know I've added a few as footways myself.

Toby


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.comwrote:

 Certainly your first move should be to contact the user, gently point
 her/him to the consensus method for tagging sidewalks, and ask the mapper
 to correct their work. Hopefully, an appeal to enlightened self-interest as
 well as the quality of the map, will prevail.


 -- SEJ
 -- twitter: @geomantic
 -- skype: sejohnson8

 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate
 from incomplete data.


 On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:38 AM, William Morris wboyk...@geosprocket.com
  wrote:

 Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as highway=footway?
 User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown Burlington,VT
 tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which wouldn't be a
 problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in everyone's
 stylesheets:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112

 Should I:

 1. Revert
 2. Get in touch with the editor
 3. Get over it

 Thanks!

 -Bill Morris
 @vtcraghead


 --
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 (802)-870-0880 | geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT

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Re: [OSM-talk] Foursquare and OSM Note Instructions

[Toby Murray]

I would say that missing data is a form of error in OSM and I have used
notes to indicate such things before. The only problem with adding things
based only on notes is that we don't know the source or accuracy of the
information, especially from anonymous notes. We get a lot of notes from
Craigslist. (anything you see that starts with bounds:) Some of them have
an address in them but are often a couple blocks away from the indicated
street because the user didn't take time to refine the marker position.
That is kind of useless.

On the other hand, I have added some things like gas stations from notes.
If I can see a gas station roof in aerial imagery and the note says it is a
BP gas station then I will add that. And of course there are often notes
that just indicate that we are missing a new neighborhood. Here in the US I
can sometimes fill in the missing roads from TIGER data.

Toby



On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:34 PM, Jason Ward jasonjwa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Alex,

 Good question and I have since figured out how to access notes I have
 touched/resolved to demonstrate my point.  My treatment of notes is
 probably the problem.  :)

 I see this note [1] as being a legitimate use case for them in that there
 used to be a roundabout there and not the intersection has been
 reconfigured (ie.  OSM is in error)
 I see this note [2] as being an illegitimate use case for them.  (ie. OSM
 is NOT in error rather OSM is missing this data).  You can see how I
 have tried to encourage the user to engage with OSM.
 Note [3] is similar to Note [2] but my treatment has been to resolve with
 the comment I have made (At the detriment of a future OSM editor?).  This
 is one of my earlier note exercises.

 [1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/6598
 [2]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/118639
 [3]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/99910

 I think the notes are great and I've used them in areas where I have
 passed through and noted obvious errors for local mappers.  With the 4sq
 channel though I'm wondering if my logic and subsequent action to resolve
 is too literal and I should leave Notes of Type [2] / [3] in place.  Is
 this the intent of Notes moving forward?

 Cheers,

 Jason


 On 28 March 2014 13:05, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote:

 Hey Jason -

 I'm not sure I follow as Foursquare's page says:

 If you just want something small fixed but don't have the time to sign
 up and edit, it's easy to add a note.

 Which seems to be in line with how you're using notes (reporting errors).
 What am I missing?






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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Toby Murray]

On Mar 14, 2014 8:24 AM, Jukka Rahkonen jukka.rahko...@latuviitta.fi
wrote:

 Simon Poole wrote:

  One thing I would like to hear about in this context of this discussion,
 are examples of concrete use cases that are not happening because of
 share alike and that are in general things that the community would like
 to support (so not evil corp can't take the data now and keep it).
 Concrete in the sense that they are uses that really would happen if
 share alike would be dropped, not we can build a straw man that shows
 how bad share alike is.

 Hi Simon,

 We have considered that we cannot use OpenStreetMap as a background map in
 any of the applications where users are sending location aware information
 back to administration. For showing existing data it would be OK but not
 for gathering data from users because user could locate a place corner of
 Annankatu and Merimiehenkatu http://osm.org/go/0xPLoLTa0?m= by looking at
 the OSM map. The interpretation of ODbL is that this location is derived
 from OSM data and thus the database of the administration would become
 ODbL. It could be OK in some use cases but some data are confidential and
 ODbL is not an option. Therefore we do not use OSM at all. We use our own
 services and Google Maps.

Foursquare uses OSM (and Google maps, depending on which app screen you are
in) to derive/verify venue locations.

Toby
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Re: [OSM-talk] isolated odbl=clean nodes with no other tags?

[Toby Murray]

It was probably a member of a way that got removed. Maybe they forgot to
add the odbl tag to the way. Or it really wasn't clean. Hard to figure out
at this point.

But yeah, feel free to remove it. I know JOSM automatically removes the
odbl tag on any modified objects on upload. P2 and iD might as well. Don't
recall right now.

Toby
On Mar 11, 2014 5:50 PM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote:

 You can safely remove it/them. You could also reuse it, but there is no
 point why you would do that, unless you figure out what the original mapper
 tried to add to the map by resurveying the area.

 Polyglot


 2014-03-11 23:40 GMT+01:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com:

 Hi,

 this caught my attention some time ago:

   http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/307673868

 we could not figure out how it happened and what it was originaly. It
 seems
 none of the validators complains about the existence of such nodes so this
 may be an isolated mishap or a widespread problem.

 Has anyone looked at this before?

 Are those odbl=clean tags supposed to stay there forever?

 Richard

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Re: [Talk-us] State ref tags on ways

[Toby Murray]

As Richard pointed out, we need consistency. Here in Kansas state highways
are generally referred to as K-xx however in OSM they are tagged with a
ref of KS xx because I feel like being consistent is more important than
how they look on osm.org.

And speaking of renderers, you will notice that the MapQuest Open tiles
actually do show state-specific sunflower shields on Kansas highways. They
are looking for two-letter state abbreviations in the way ref tag. I say
this not as a suggestion that we tag for the MapQuest style sheet but just
as a counter-point to it looks ugly on osm.org and to reinforce Richard's
point that we need to think about data consumers in general.

Toby



On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 2:22 PM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:

 On 3/10/14 11:07 PM, James Mast wrote:

  I know that in some states that we don't add the state abbreviation
 (and use 'SR' or 'SH'), and other states we don't add anything at all
 expect just the number.

I'm just curious if anybody thinks we should try to get them all
 standardized on the ways.


 redacted
 And then Richard Welty replied:


  i would personally like to seem some consistency but i kind of
 stopped trying to advocate the position a while ago. it didn't seem
 like agreement was terribly likely and it was better to just continue
 to press on with building proper route relations.


 Offering my two cents, I'd like to see a move towards consistency in each
 of the fifty states.  In California, there was a move within OSM to prefix
 County Roads with CR  (and then the county road route ref, like G2) as
 well as prefixing State Routes with SR or CA (federal Buck Act
 abbreviation for California).  This was done inconsistently, and in mapnik,
 makes CR and CA almost indistinguishable unless I squint.  Please don't
 make me squint, and please don't needlessly lengthen ref tags, which in
 some cases (California a good example) makes them hard to distinguish, not
 to mention ugly, too long and just plain wrong.

 A ref tag like G2 says all it needs to say to anybody familiar with how
 California breaks apart its County Road system into several multiple county
 regions, grouping these with a letter, then suffixing with an integer
 anywhere from a few to a couple dozen routes within that lettered system;
 there is no need to prefix with CR  as it is redundant (factually) and
 ugly (in my opinion).  Plus, signs say G2 or S19 not CR G2 or CR
 S19.  I can only guess these latter shields/ref tags are helpful for those
 not from around here.  For those who are, these are just plain wrong.

 Plus, if I see simply 9 or 17 on a mapnik shield (small circle or
 oval), I know those to be State Routes (highways) and I don't need CA  to
 prefix them.  I believe it to be polite and correct for I-5 or I-210 to
 appear on Interstates, even though all fifty states do not have any number
 collisions between their state highways and (federal) Interstates.

 Martijn's relation pages are an excellent tool to find (and fix, where
 desired or necessary) inconsistencies.

 I assume these guidelines (except for County Roads) are similarly true in
 all fifty states, though I defer to local expertise outside of California.

 SteveA
 California

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Re: [Talk-us] State ref tags on ways: Use of unique ISO/ANSI/USPS 2-letter state codes in RELATIONS as well as WAYS?

[Toby Murray]

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 6:48 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote:

 On 3/11/14 7:04 PM, Peter Davies wrote:
  I thought I would make my proposal stand out a bit more by adding words
 to
  the title.  :-O
 
  There are some weird things, like Nebraska's state law that requires NDOR
  to have a state road link to every community of a 100 people or more.
 I've
  changed some Link 80F ref tags to NE 80F Link and Spur nnX tags to
  NE nnX Spur without having time to do the whole state.
 
  AZ has its Loop 101 and Loop 202 freeways for which I would advocate
  refs AZ Loop 101 and AZ Loop 202.
 
  Texas also has many weird qualifiers on minor state routes but as I've
  never contracted there for 511 I'm not totally familiar with them.
 
 
 On relations, i think we have a clear, agreed upon standard that
 the network tag indicates the grouping of highways to which a particular
 route belongs, and the ref tag indicates the identifier within that group.

 so you end up with something like

 network=US:AZ:Loop
 ref=101

 although some might prefer

 network=US:AZ
 ref=Loop 101

 either one contains enough information in an easily parsed format to allow
 data consumers to accomplish what they need to do. i lean towards the
 former
 tagging approach


I went and verified some things about bannered routes. It looks like the
current shield rendering looks for network=X:Y:Modifier. So for example the
US 50 truck route in Cincinnati is network=US:US:Truck and ref=50. The
relation and rendering can be seen at the following two URLs:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1142913
http://openstreetmap.us/~toby/shields.html#14/39.1162/-84.4678

Looking around it looks like the other convention that has some decent use
in the database (but is not currently supported by any renderings) is to
add a modifier=Truck/Business/Spur/etc tag. You can see current usage in
taginfo:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/modifier#values

Soo... yay for multiple standards?

Toby
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Re: [OSM-talk] No Changeset Comments from iD

[Toby Murray]

Here, let's have some numbers. As of the last changeset dump (Feb. 28th)

iD:
total changesets: 1,744,610
changesets with a comment: 745,774
43% comment rate

Potlatch2:
total changesets:  3,594,415
changesets with comment: 1,971,298
54% comment rate

JOSM:
total changesets: 10,289,418
changesets with comment: 96,28,498
93% comment rate

iD certainly gives you the opportunity to enter a comment but is probably
the least obvious about it. P2 pops up a dialog box asking for a message
but doesn't complain if you don't put one in. And of course JOSM gets
rather angry with you if you don't put in a sufficiently long comment.

What these numbers don't show is how many comments are useless repeated
fixed problems ones. JOSM auto-fills the comment with whatever you used
last time. And actually I believe iD does as well.

Interestingly, P2 would have had a 57% comment rate but over 88,000 of its
changesets have a comment tag that has a blank value. iD has 22,000 of
these as well. JOSM only has 81.

Toby




On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote:



  Am 06/mar/2014 um 16:04 schrieb Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu:
 
  For the love of god, no.


 +1, the point of a changeset comment is to give information that is not
 contained in the changes itself (eg about the why, like removed restaurant
 because it is closed etc) while everything intrinsic is already there and
 there is no need to repeat it in natural language.

 cheers,
 Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] No Changeset Comments from iD

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 4:51 PM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 06/03/2014, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
  Here, let's have some numbers. As of the last changeset dump (Feb. 28th)

 Interesting numbers, thanks.

  What these numbers don't show is how many comments are useless repeated
  fixed problems ones. JOSM auto-fills the comment with whatever you used
  last time. And actually I believe iD does as well.

 It'd be interesting to count the number of unique userid || comment.
 Not a perfect metric, but a high unique/total ratio should hint at
 better quality comments. One could also look at comment size, but
 that's probably even harder to draw conclusions from.



Pascal Neis does this on a per-user basis in his How Did You Contribute
website.  eg:
http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?ToeBee

You have to click on the little more link to show the changeset comment
stats.

Toby
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Re: [Talk-us] importing zip codes

[Toby Murray]

On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 6:15 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote:

 The USPS has a web site for giving ZIP and ZIP+4 values for specified
 addresses at
 https://tools.usps.com/go/ZipLookupAction!input.action?mode=0refresh=true

 As near as I can tell from the TOS at 
 http://about.usps.com/termsofuse.htmthere is no particular limit to the 
 number of requests per minute and I
 think that postal code information for an address is public information.


Umm... What about this bit?

Users may view and download material from this site only for the following
purposes: (a) for personal, non-commercial home use; (b) where the
materials clearly state that these materials may be copied and reproduced
according to the terms stated in those particular pages; or (c) with the
express written permission of the Postal Service. In all other cases, you
will need written permission from the Postal Service to reproduce,
republish, upload, post, transmit, distribute or publicly display material
from this Web site.

OSM is not personal or non-commercial.

Toby
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Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town

[Toby Murray]

Note that if you delete the node, the city name will no longer be rendered
on osm.org or Mapquest Open. Not sure about other renderings but I'm
guessing a lot of them do the same thing. Another way of fixing the
nominatim problem is to create a boundary relation for the city. Move the
tags from the way to the relation and then add the node to the relation
with a role of label as this will cause nominatim to merge the two into a
single entity while still rendering the name on the map.

Toby



On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote:

 On 1/29/14 2:23 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
  I generally copy the tags to the boundary (in JOSM copy the node, then
  paste tags into the way).
  The tiger and gnis tags do not overlap.  The GNISID is a particularly
  useful tag to preserve.
 gnisid may be the only one worth saving, most of the GNIS: tags are really
 worthless.
  Town vs. City is a matter of opinion.  You can visit the municipal
 website
  and use whatever term they use more often.
 
 
 er, no. depends on the state. in NY, town, city, village, hamlet, and
 borough
 all have very distinct legal meanings and there is no opinion about it. i
 would not presume to judge these terms in CA.

 richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Help needed with polygon/membership of admin area in Willits, CA

[Toby Murray]

In Bing imagery I see what might be a disused sewage treatment tank just to
the south of the area originally highlighted. Around here that is one
common thing that ends up being a separate little section of city boundary.
You can easily see the whole relation on osm.org:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/111764

Toby


On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 11:48 AM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote:

 Looks like the administrative boundary relation for Willits has four
 separate unconnected areas.

 (Right click on the boundary relation and download unloaded members,
 select relation members and then zoom to selection is what I did)

 I don't know enough about Willits to know if this is correct or not. Could
 be some land owned by Willits outside the main town boundaries.

 -Tod



 On Jan 26, 2014, at 9:40 AM, Richard Welty wrote:

  On 1/26/14 12:36 PM, Sebastian Arcus wrote:
  I'm doing a bit of mapping in Willits, CA - and a quick search of
  Willits, CA in OSM returns this lonely polygon in the middle of,
  pretty much, nowhere:
 
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/39.38187/-123.30127
 
  According to JOSM, it is a member of a larger membership - but I'm not
  sure how to use JOSM to find the other group members on the map - to
  try and guess what's going on. I'm assuming this particular element is
  some sort of mistake - but if anybody can take a look and clear things
  up a bit - it would help. I know GNIS imports contain some bad data -
  but maybe someone could guess what it was all supposed to look like -
  or why is this polygon where it is.
 
  it may be fine, i'm bringing it up to look at it now.
 
  richard
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Oklahoma relations spreadsheet

[Toby Murray]

I've been maintaining a similar list of relations on the wiki for Kansas.
It is a bit tedious to keep up to date though and doesn't have all the
highways in the state listed yet.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kansas_state_highways#List_of_highways_and_their_status

Toby


On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:


 On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 3:01 AM, Minh Nguyen m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
  wrote:

 NE2 was a fan of forward/reverse relation roles, so don't expect too many
 cardinal direction roles.


 Probably something to do with that's how relations are documented and
 that's what the tools are designed to work with.

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Re: [Talk-us] Bing imagery update

[Toby Murray]

You can view this information in JOSM as well. If Bing is the only imagery
visible you can right click and choose Show Tile Info

Toby

On Dec 4, 2013 5:42 PM, Martijn van Exel mart...@openstreetmap.us wrote:

The HTTP response header of the tile image contains something like:
X-VE-TILEMETA-CaptureDatesRange:
1/1/2012-1/1/2012

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
wrote:
 Martijn,
 Where do you get the date from? I suspect that it is encoded in the bing
 image tile. What are you using to grab the data?

 Clifford


 On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Martijn van Exel 
mart...@openstreetmap.us
 wrote:

 here is the original version, which shows things in a slightly
 different way, for reference:

 http://mvexel.dev.openstreetmap.org/bingimageanalyzer/#




 On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Elliott Plack elliott.pl...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Clifford, great share!
 
 
  On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Martijn van Exel
  mart...@openstreetmap.us
  wrote:
 
  The site you are pointing to is actually a much improved fork of a
  much simpler thing I built a few years ago, so I can't take much
  credit for this :)
 
  On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us

  wrote:
   Check out Bing Aerial Imagery Analyzer for OpenStreetMap,
   http://ant.dev.openstreetmap.org/bingimageanalyzer/. Someone posted
a
   link
   about it on the Canadian talk list this morning. Another one of
   Martijn
   van
   Exel great contributions to OSM.
  
  
   On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Alexander Jones
   happy5...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
   Mike N wrote:
  
In my part of SC, Bing imagery has updated!   Seems to be from
this
year; within the last month or so.
  
   New imagery in Fresno, too. When you're remapping rail yards, it's
a
   lifesaver.
  
   Alexander
  
  
  
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Re: [OSM-talk] Admin borders/separate database

[Toby Murray]

So it seems like the get admin boundaries out of core OSM opinion has
fairly decent support in the US but maybe not elsewhere. I think the reason
for this is because we imported these borders a few years ago. Because the
import process wasn't perfect, it created duplicate nodes wherever a border
intersected a TIGER road even if there would normally be no reason for a
node to exist on either one of the ways. These duplicate nodes then got
merged together by a bot trying to clean up keepright duplicate node
errors. But now because our boundaries are merged to roads where they have
no business being merged, it makes them a nightmare to update. It also
means that well meaning users see this and think that is the way it is
supposed to be and make the problem worse.

If the boundaries were in their own space we could update them at will from
authoritative sources on a regular basis. Of course authoritative doesn't
always mean accurate but for admin boundaries I think it is much more
often the case than for most other physical things we can easily survey
with a GPS device. Sure, you can sometimes find evidence of an admin
boundary on the ground but this is definitely the exception rather than the
rule around here. And even if you *can* it doesn't mean this is going to
happen for each city in the US on a regular basis. So yes, I think we could
have a better and more up to date map if we made boundaries separate from
most other features in the database.

The idea of some filters being active by default in editors has also been
suggested before but some people are opposed to this because everyone can
edit everything all the time in OSM. This is a nice sentiment but I
personally have no problem saying that a first time mapper has no business
touching admin boundaries that have the potential to break geocoding for an
entire country/state.

As a last note, Paul's example of the Colorado River is hardly unique. My
county border is defined by the course of a river - when the border was
defined. Since then a dam has been built which means most of the eastern
side of the border now runs through a lake. The part of the river that is
not in the lake changed course during a massive flood in the 1950s but the
border still follows the original course of the river. Maybe the different
handling of borders following a natural feature is another regional
difference?

Toby


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:


 On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:05 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote:

 The problem is, some admin borders are supposed to be glued to roads or
 rivers, and they change when the flow of a road or river changes. How do
 you deal with that?


 Well, historically, the border doesn't move.  This has caused an on-going
 border dispute between California and Arizona (compounded by the fact that
 the Colorado River no longer regularly flows at all that far south), and
 some spits and islands only accessible from the neighboring state elsewhere
 in the country.

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Re: [Talk-us] Public Labs/balloon mapping?

[Toby Murray]

On the subject of RC and drones: I have been working on building myself a
multirotor RC platform this year. One of the ideas behind it (besides just
being fun) was to be able to go to some new construction, send it up, grab
pictures and then map from them. So far I'm still stuck on the flying it
without crashing part. I did strap my GoPro camera to it on one flight.
but had it capturing the view, not the ground. You can see the results
here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5OdOm4S1cI

There is a twist ending. Several twists actually. And some bumps. I'm not
sure how high up I went that time but it was approaching the point where it
was getting hard to keep track of visually. After that video I got a new
flight controller that is much better and might give me more
confidence/flexibility. Some LED strips on the arms might help as well.

The GoPro or similar cameras have a very wide field of view (up to 170
degrees) so they might be able to capture a decent area even from a few
hundred feet up but I'm guessing the distortion will be hard to compensate
for, especially at the edges. So the useful field of view will still be
kind of narrow. I guess if I ever get something to work, I'll probably
brag/blog about it :)

Toby



On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 11:21 AM, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi,

 On 28 October 2013 02:35, Ian McEwen ianmcorvi...@ianmcorvidae.net
 wrote:
  Hi; I've been recently looking around http://publiclab.org/, especially
  at their tools for doing ground-tethered balloon and kite mapping
  (http://publiclab.org/wiki/balloon-mapping). The bulk of the prose on
  the site seems to be activism-oriented -- documenting the BP oil spill,
  Occupy encampments, etc. As you might guess I'm more interested in the
  potential to use this for OSM, but stories of others doing that seem to
  be sparse.
 
  Has anyone here used balloon mapping or these tools (or similar ones)
  who can share experience, pitfalls, etc.?

 I've done some kite photography around the San Francisco Bay area and
 more recently one session in Seattle, but haven't had time to process
  stitch any images from within the US.  I've been following what
 Public Lab / grassrootsmapping.org do, and had a chance to fly kite
 with Jeff Warren and Stuart Long of Public Lab, but as you say their
 process and tools are designed for activism, perhaps documentation
 (historial, social, not geographical), and not exactly what we need in
 OSM.  The MapKnitter tool is great for easy stitching but it's
 difficult to get a precision map from it, although it surely would be
 a good base for an OSM oriented tool.  In theory most of the process
 can be automated away but there's a shortage of opensource tools for
 that.
 Public Lab generally (not always) shoot from low altitudes at high
 ground resultion, thus covering small areas.  It's possible to go up
 to at least 3000ft so you can actually cover a couple square miles if
 you allow for a bigger angle than Google Maps etc. which is not so
 much of an issue for mapping.  Going high is difficult technically and
 possibly legally though, and requires great conditions.

 I've done some attempts with balloon mapping and many attempts using a
 cheap DIY RC platform (which is gradually improving) but I've had most
 success with the kite so far.

 These same methods (kites, ballons, drones) are used a lot in
 archaeology with established processes, but mostly use commercial
 software.

 Best regards

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Re: [OSM-talk] Taginfo for Changesets?

[Toby Murray]

I wrote a bit of python a while ago to shove the weekly changeset dump into
a postgres database where you can query tags. There is no snazzy front end
for it though.

https://github.com/ToeBee/ChangesetMD

Toby


On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.comwrote:

 Is there an equivalent of taginfo for the tags in changesets?
 Short of that is there a search facility for changeset tags?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Timezones (was: Deleting data)

[Toby Murray]

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 6:29 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

 Back on topic: how do you phrase an objective rule, or at least
 well-worded guidelines, which allow admin boundaries but disallow time zone
 boundaries? I wonder where the UK ceremonial counties, fire department
 areas, national parks etc will end up. My point is, gut feelings aside,
 that it is not reasonable to single out TZ boundaries for this deprecation.


 Having edited over a thousand of them, I would not be sad to see admin
boundaries removed from the general OSM database. I think Russ is on to
something with his ClosedStreetMap concept although that is some terrible
branding so we need another name :) But at the end of the day, we are
terrible at maintaining such boundaries and very good at breaking them in
OSM, mostly because they are usually hard/impossible to spot on the ground
and verify. So people see random lines going through the area they are
trying to map and either don't pay attention when they touch them or just
delete them outright. Essentially what we need is the concept of layers. If
all the admin/timezone boundaries were in their own layer and didn't
interact with roads, rivers, etc in OSM then they would be much easier to
keep up to date from external sources.

Yes, OSM *can* contain just about anything. But if we are terrible at it
and there are other datasets available that aren't terrible then why should
we try to poorly duplicate others efforts?

Some of my opinion may be due to some problems with the way they were
imported here in the US but I suspect it isn't all that different in most
other places.

Toby
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Re: [OSM-talk] Timezones (was: Deleting data)

[Toby Murray]

Yes, in that small fraction of cases there would be duplication of
positional data. But in some cases where you think this is the case, it
might actually not be. My county border was defined by a river. Now part of
the river is a reservoir and the other part has shifted over time and
through floods. The border was not moved with these changes and still
follows the original course of the river even though there is no way to see
this path on the ground at this point. So is the border really defined by
the river? Or was it defined by the river at a certain point in time which
may or may not be the same as it is now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting an edit to nuke all admin boundaries
tomorrow. They are a part of the core OSM database and will likely continue
to be for some time. I'm just pointing out that OSM is not good at them and
that there might be a better way to handle such things. Perhaps this
approach could be tried with time zone data since we don't already have a
large body of them in the database.

Toby


On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:

 It is not always possible to separate admin boundaries from real world
 features. Rivers, roads or even hedges often define a boundary.


 Phil (trigpoint)

 --



 Sent from my Nokia N9



 On 21/10/2013 15:41 Toby Murray wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 6:29 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nlwrote:

  Back on topic: how do you phrase an objective rule, or at least
 well-worded guidelines, which allow admin boundaries but disallow time zone
 boundaries? I wonder where the UK ceremonial counties, fire department
 areas, national parks etc will end up. My point is, gut feelings aside,
 that it is not reasonable to single out TZ boundaries for this deprecation.


 Having edited over a thousand of them, I would not be sad to see admin
 boundaries removed from the general OSM database. I think Russ is on to
 something with his ClosedStreetMap concept although that is some terrible
 branding so we need another name :) But at the end of the day, we are
 terrible at maintaining such boundaries and very good at breaking them in
 OSM, mostly because they are usually hard/impossible to spot on the ground
 and verify. So people see random lines going through the area they are
 trying to map and either don't pay attention when they touch them or just
 delete them outright. Essentially what we need is the concept of layers. If
 all the admin/timezone boundaries were in their own layer and didn't
 interact with roads, rivers, etc in OSM then they would be much easier to
 keep up to date from external sources.

 Yes, OSM *can* contain just about anything. But if we are terrible at it
 and there are other datasets available that aren't terrible then why should
 we try to poorly duplicate others efforts?

 Some of my opinion may be due to some problems with the way they were
 imported here in the US but I suspect it isn't all that different in most
 other places.

 Toby


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Re: [Talk-us] Question about incorrect data for an administrative area

[Toby Murray]

On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote:


 also, i would be remiss if i didn't point out that post office delivery
 addressing
 is only vaguely related to the actual administrative boundaries; the
 addressing
 situation for Enterprise is hardly unique, in fact situations like this
 are probably
 the norm.


Nominatim actually has a major shortcoming in this area. Even if an address
is explicitly mapped with addr:city, Nominatim still goes off of its own
idea of admin boundaries.

For example, try to find this address:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/2209426197

Nominatim's result for this address is:
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=5984097120

Which is reported to be in Rocky Ford instead of Manhattan.

This is kind of a big problem for geocoding in the US...

Toby
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Re: [Talk-us] Current status with highway shields?

[Toby Murray]

The tiles on the OSM-US server are up and running. The preview was on
Phil's home server that had limited bandwidth. A better UI to the tile
layer can be found here with standard map controls and a simple search
feature to jump to locations:

http://bl.ocks.org/ToeBee/raw/6119134/

I have talked to Ian about getting that HTML up at a more memorable URL on
openstreetmap.us and maybe linking to it somewhere on the site. I'll bug
him about it again.

No progress has been made on porting the style to carto.

I might be able to fix the bannered routes. I know there are some New York
county issues I need to look at as well.

Toby



On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:

 (sorry if this makes it twice - I tried posting from my other account
 but got flak from Outlook)
 Yes that would be really interesting to push forward. To my mind this
 should be a default tile layer on osm.us (not that we have a slippy
 map on there today at all – but we should).
 The layer still works --

 http://tile.openstreetmap.us/osmus_shields/preview.html#13/40.7292/-111.8467
 (pro tip: shift double click to zoom out…)
 I don't remember very clearly but I think my main concern is that this
 operates on a pre-carto Mapnik stylesheet – which would make it
 difficult to keep in sync with style tweaks to osm.org – and more
 difficult to maintain in general.

 On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 9:52 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
 wrote:
  +1
 
  In a conversation with a King County (Washington) employee, we discussed
 his
  project to create tiles from OSM to use as basemaps for King County and
  hopefully others. While he doesn't need our tile server, the shields
 would
  really enhance the basemaps.
 
 
  On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Hello,
 
  I was just wondering what's been going on with rendering the highway
  shields. I haven't heard anything about it for a while. The last time
  anything was mentioned about this was in late-July when it was announced
  that the tiles were put up on the OSM-US server--and that was only
 meant to
  be a preview. I know that the code has to be changed to work with the
 new
  Carto stylesheet, but I didn't expect that to take so long. Sorry if I
 sound
  impatient, but I've been waiting patiently for the past two months.
 
  Also, I have noticed that the shields for bannered WA State routes
 (Spur,
  Alternate) are not rendering. I emailed Phil Gold (creator of the
 awesome
  shield rendering) about this almost a month ago, but he never responded
 so
  this hasn't been fixed. Anyway, I'd appreciate it if this can get
 addressed.
 
  Thanks for coming up with the whole highway shield rendering. I really
  appreciate the effort, because the shields are a 154% improvement over
 the
  current way of displaying highway numbers. I appreciate your efforts on
  getting this whole project completed. Unfortunately I'm not a
 programmer,
  but if there's anything I can help with, let me know.
 
  All WA State Hwys. are now ready for shields (that is, they all have
  relations), but are the shields ready for display on the slippy map? I
 hope
  they will be soon.
 
  Thanks, Compdude
 
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Re: [Talk-us] TIGER 2013 Places shapefile for PA?

[Toby Murray]

That ITO map seems to be only looking at ways. If you include relations in
the analysis things should actually be pretty good. There should be a
(mostly) correct boundary relation for every county in the US. At one point
I was the last user to have touched about 40% of them... There may very
well be some cleanup with state/city borders that overlap. I thought I got
most of the state ones although I may have missed some out east.

Toby


On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 10:43 PM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:

 This reminds me of how patchy old USA looks when viewed with itoworld's
 admin_level render http://www.itoworld.com/map/2?**lon=-95lat=37zoom=5*
 *fullscreen=truehttp://www.itoworld.com/map/2?lon=-95lat=37zoom=5fullscreen=trueespecially
  at county level (admin_level=6 orange).  Some states are
 snap-sharp beautiful (Michigan, Dakotas, Carolinas, New Mexico), some are
 pretty sloppy (large parts of the West:  no offense, I'm simply identifying
 some hills to climb).

 If there is a can o' whoop state by state available (whether freshly
 offered by our federal workers or a not-stale archive), perhaps effort to
 tease the good ones in (untangling with what is already) can be part of a
 next Edit-A-Thon.

 Yes, by can o' whoop I mean the pop-it-open special blend of skill,
 careful steps, wider discussion, vetting, organization and
 roll-up-our-sleeves that I KNOW we can do, but hey, isn't that what we're
 doing here?!

 Just throwing out what I think might be a well-identified idea. Discussing
 and paying attention to counties-at-a-time can shake a little order into
 things where now it seems a bit lumpy and chaotic.

 SteveA
 California
 (yes, we have some work to do here!)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Outperforming TomTom

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 5:19 AM, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns lafr...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Free version of such data would be great and as I allways have data on on
 my phone I won't have problem with that. I was thinking on implementing
 something like that but at least for me, main problem is server(s) where
 that data would go and that would aggregate them as that would be quite
 much data if it's used by many people (and we would need many people to use
 it, if we want to get good qualitty data out of it)...



 2013/9/12 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk

 Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

 Since the majority of sat nav's are now smart devices, why can't they
 all be
 reporting back the average speed where they are so we can automatically
 map
 the current traffic hot spots?


 That data is already available for sale from mobile network operators -
 that is
 why you don't see much interest in having navigation devices provide
 feedback:
 every mobile device is already providing ample sampling. Of course that
 doesn't
 help the free world very much...


 That is why what I'm thinking is the 'free' version ;)
 A sort of agreed standard linked to the various OSM routing options?

 Maarten - I can understand your reluctance on always on data, currently I
 do get gaps in the mapping on the motorways here were there simply isn't
 any cover, but moving forward I think that particular problem will
 eventually be fixed.


Telenav has been working on an open standard for traffic data based on OSM
for a couple of years. See their presentation at SOTM-US:
http://vimeopro.com/openstreetmapus/state-of-the-map-us-2013/video/68096028

Might be nice for someone at Telenav to write up a quick wiki page about
the TTL standard :)

Toby
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Re: [Talk-us] map data error page at gps.gov

[Toby Murray]

This:

when we update the page

combined with

This story was originally published in May 2011. We made minor text edits
in November 2011.

doesn't exactly make me want to hold my breath :)

Toby



On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:

 On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:
 
  If anyone is inclined to agitate, it would be cool if this page:
http://www.gps.gov/support/user/mapfix/
  acknowledged OSM as a provider of map data, and had a pointer of how to
  report errors in OSM somehow.

 Success, perhaps:


 --
 From: Jason Y. Kim jason.kim++gps.gov
 Thanks for the suggestion.  We'll add that link when we update the page.
 Jason Y. Kim
 Webmaster, www.gps.gov

 On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 7:40 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
 wrote:
  At http://www.gps.gov/support/user/mapfix/ your website offers links
  to two major commercial map providers for GPS devices.  There's another
  major provider, a non-profit at http://www.openstreetmap.org/.
  Would you consider linking there as well?
 Bryce Nesbitt
 Berkeley, CA USA

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Toby Murray]

We aren't trying to make The Perfect Editor here.  We are trying to replace
an aging editor with something more current. Let us not make perfection the
enemy of progress. Of course there are still improvements to be made but iD
is definitely a fantastic bit of code. We can keep bikeshedding it until
the cows come home but at some point a switch needs to be thrown.

Some specific responses:

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 4:27 PM, NopMap ekkeh...@gmx.de wrote:


 I agree with the previous posts that ID is not a suitable editor for
 beginners/as default as long as it presents destructive operations in such
 a
 prominent manner. I'm referring to the delete button but also to the
 make-square, make-round and rotate options. You do not need these to draw
 streets on top of tracks or aerial imagery, which is the basic start of
 mapping. I have never used them at all. But they can be very destructive
 for
 existing geometry. An expert mode where you can add those operations later
 might be a good solution.


So basically, you don't like the radial context menu. That is mostly a UI
design decision. These operations are not all that much less prominent in
P2. They were just in a box down in the corner of the map instead of
at-the-ready under your mouse cursor. Initially I wasn't sold on the radial
menus but I think they work reasonably well here. Every once in a while
they get in the way of something I want to select but most of the time they
are pretty handy.


 I tried deleting a few things and there was no warning that I was acting
 destructively. The warning before saving is too general and the list of
 change objects also does not indicate whether I did something dangerous. I
 believe that immediate warnings when you do something dangerous (and an
 expert switch to disable them later) would be very helpful to prevent
 damage
 and teach the user how to proceed.


This is identical behavior to P2. I just tried deleting ways that were
members of turn restriction and bus route relations in P2. No warning, just
silent deletion. This is not a reason that would prevent iD from replacing
P2.



 The wording on the delete button is also misleading. It says: remove this
 from the map. But that is not what it does. It deletes it from the
 database, not from any particular map. This encourages the common
 misunderstanding that OSM is a map and of course unnecessary deletions.


So what is your suggestion for new text on this button? You can't explain
the difference between a map rendering and a geodatabase in a tooltip.


 On the other hand, some very useful functions seem to be missing. Or at
 least they are not offered as icons and I couldn't figure out how to do it.
 One is click on end node of line and continue drawing it (click on node
 in
 P2). Another is copy tags from similar way (r in P2).


You just select the line tool and click on the end of a way. It
automatically continues the existing way. I will concede that this isn't
exactly obvious. Do you have a suggestion to make it better? I think the P2
behavior would be inconsistent with the rest of the UI in iD. Maybe just
make the tooltip say Add or extend... instead of just Add?



 There is some relation handling, but the visibility of relations is still
 insufficient. They are shown in the sidebar, but with all instances I
 tried,
 the normal tags took up all the visible space in the bar and you had do
 scroll down to read anything about relations. As they are not marked on the
 map in any way, they are still invisible to the unsuspecting user. If you
 don't know that there must be a relation there and directly look for it,
 they remain totally invisible.


Again, this is pretty similar to current P2 behavior and not something that
should block iD from replacing P2 as the default. I think P2 does display
some relation types slightly more prominently. But for example turning
restrictions are rendered on the map as a somewhat meaningless icon on the
via node. Other than that you have to switch to Advanced mode to see most
relation information. This is even further removed from visibility than at
the bottom of the side panel in iD.



 I agree with the previous posts that OSM should not create a connection to
 Facebook, Twitter or any other social service without conscious choice by
 the user or in a way that suggests that it is an integral part of OSM or
 that membership there is required in any way. A good solution might be a
 plain share link on the save page that leads you to a setting where you
 can opt-in to your favorite services if you like to. Or maybe you could
 detect the Facebook session and tracking cookies and show it the button
 only
 if you have an active session. But currently it looks like OSM is simply
 advertising for Facebook.


I view having to click on the buttons as sufficient opt-in. I mean
seriously... who in their right mind would think that a share on Facebook
button is some kind of official endorsement of Facebook by OSMF? There are
share, 

Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[Toby Murray]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:



 I don't see PL1 since months in the edit tab, thought it was retired
 because of 64bit node IDs. If there is a trick to still get it to use I'd
 be interested because of the deleted ways function.

 cheers,
 Martin


Right click on the P2 edit link, copy, paste into your URL bar and remove
the 2 at the end of potlatch2 in the URL :)

I have used it twice in the last week to undelete ways.

Toby
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Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!

[Toby Murray]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:


 On Aug 8, 2013 9:42 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
  [As an aside, the 'N' and 'E' on Douglas County roads do *not* stand
 for 'North' or 'East,']
 

 Well, it does, since they're defining range and plat, but you're correct
 that it's not expanded or assumed by anyone but surveyors.

 
  TIGER didn't get the memo apparently

 Actually, that may have been the abbreviation bot that ran last year if
 these county roads had the ref incorrectly in the name field instead of ref
 when it ran through.

Nope. This being Kansas, they were expanded by the bot that ran several
years ago and was stopped at about the Mississippi. But the ways in
question did have a tiger:name_direction_prefix tag on them.
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Re: [OSM-talk] In the works: iD 1.1

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:


 One minor query: As with Tom Hughes test page, these require a separate
 login, or use OpenID. I presume any edits done under these wont appear
 under my user name for the main web page login. Is there a way for these
 test pages to use my original login details?


The deployment of the iD release on the openstreetmap.us server hits the
live database if you want to try using the release candidate for actual
editing.

Toby
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