Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
El día Thursday 30 July 2009 13:31:25, Maarten Deen dijo: I have never seen a different sign for mopeds, HGV's or vehicles with a caravan, it is always the maximum for all vehicles. http://www.joseramonmartinez.com/2005/11/25/senales-para-tanques/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/katiegoldstein/1194592039/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbcmundohispano/2380735560/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/drivefaster/2128057572/sizes/l/ (note: ónibus = bus; caminhôes = trucks) Cheers, -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es Un ordenador no es una televisión ni un microondas: es una herramienta compleja. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
John Smith wrote: It's basically there to decide whether to use colons as in your example or switch to something like maxspeed[wet][forward][motorcycle]. Why? Well, because those time conditions tend to have colons in You split based on the equal sign and it doesn't matter that the time condition or key uses colons. Read the proposal first, please. It requires that you add the condition as _part_ of the key, for example bicycle[10:00-18:00] = no It has been suggested to add them to the value instead, but you will always need to deal with substrings of either key or value string. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 08:44:32AM +0200, marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: In that one case it's okay. Reason: * There can only be ONE maxspeed on a road. ever! Please add per direction on a road. Still waiting for a good way to tag maxspeed per direction. What we call a Geschwindkeitstrichter in German - the continues limiting of the maxspeed to a lower value e.g. 100/70/50 up to a crossing. This is typically not reflected driving from the crossing where only a maxspeed end sign basically is put up. I also see ofter a limit in the inner lane in a corner but not on the outer lane ... This can currently not really be modelled. Probably a maxspeed:forward=50 + maxspeed:reverse=100 or something - How does this combine with wet and probably even vehicle based limits ... maxspeed:forward:motorcycle=50 maxspeed:wet:forward:motorcycle=50 Afterwards add time based maxspeeds :) I think we'd need a generic way to tag conditional ... Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@rfc822.org Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Florian Lohoff f...@rfc822.org wrote: Probably a maxspeed:forward=50 + maxspeed:reverse=100 or something - How does this combine with wet and probably even vehicle based limits ... maxspeed:forward:motorcycle=50 I've been setting maxspeed to the lowest value and then setting maxspeed:forward/maxspeed:backward if needed and for the direction of the way as applicable, this way at least you will be told the lower speed limit even if it isn't 100% applicable. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
Florian Lohoff wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 08:44:32AM +0200, marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: In that one case it's okay. Reason: * There can only be ONE maxspeed on a road. ever! Please add per direction on a road. Still waiting for a good way to tag maxspeed per direction. What we call a Geschwindkeitstrichter in German - the continues limiting of the maxspeed to a lower value e.g. 100/70/50 up to a crossing. This is typically not reflected driving from the crossing where only a maxspeed end sign basically is put up. I also see ofter a limit in the inner lane in a corner but not on the outer lane ... This can currently not really be modelled. Not only in a corner. In Germany the A3, going down the Elzer Berg (near Limburg an der Lahn in the eastward direction) has a speedlimit of 40 km/h on the right lane and 100 km/h (or 120? haven't been there in two years) on the left two lanes. Speedlimit is imposed because of the steep gradient down and is meant to limit the risk of runaway HGV's on the right lane. So the correct wording is: there can only be one maxspeed per lane per direction on a road. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Florian Lohoff wrote: In that one case it's okay. Reason: * There can only be ONE maxspeed on a road. ever! Please add per direction on a road. at a given time. (we have reduced maxspeed in front of schools depending on time, day and whether it is term time) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: at a given time. (we have reduced maxspeed in front of schools depending on time, day and whether it is term time) There are other roads that have variable limit speed signs and they can change at any time. There is also changes in speed limits during peak hours. There is also changes in speed limits during weather conditions like wet weather and fog. The list goes on. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
2009/7/30 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com: --- On Thu, 30/7/09, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: at a given time. (we have reduced maxspeed in front of schools depending on time, day and whether it is term time) There are other roads that have variable limit speed signs and they can change at any time. There is also changes in speed limits during peak hours. There is also changes in speed limits during weather conditions like wet weather and fog. there is already a proposal to tag those... http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Conditions_for_access_tags (the title is misleading) and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Lennard l...@xs4all.nl wrote: And in my own jurisdiction: to be able to set maxspeed=none for bicycles when there is no explicit maxspeed sign. :D bikes have the same speed limits here as every other thing on wheels, and even horses for that matter, and you can get tickets like all the other wheeled vehicles and even get done for drink driving on horses and ride on lawn mowers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
2009/7/30 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com: --- On Thu, 30/7/09, Lennard l...@xs4all.nl wrote: And in my own jurisdiction: to be able to set maxspeed=none for bicycles when there is no explicit maxspeed sign. :D bikes have the same speed limits here as every other thing on wheels, and even horses for that matter, and you can get tickets like all the other wheeled vehicles and even get done for drink driving on horses and ride on lawn mowers. explicit speedlimits here as well, but Lennard was writing about implicit speedlimits (in town=50 and the like). Those are not valid for bicycles, but this is IMHO also not a very important issue, as most bikers don't get beyond 50km/h. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
2009/7/30 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com: bikes have the same speed limits here as every other thing on wheels, and even horses for that matter, and you can get tickets like all the other wheeled vehicles and even get done for drink driving on horses and ride on lawn mowers. That's exactly why I talked about my jurisdiction (The Netherlands), which doesn't have an implicit maxspeed for bicycles. It apparently never was a real problem in law enforcement, or it would've likely been amended. explicit speedlimits here as well, but Lennard was writing about implicit speedlimits (in town=50 and the like). Those are not valid for bicycles, but this is IMHO also not a very important issue, as most bikers don't get beyond 50km/h. Exactly, it's a moot point, and I included it mostly to make the point that there are so many subtle ways to handle maxspeed, that it would be difficult to make an all-encompassing tagging scheme. At some point, you'll just have to go with a generalized solution. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:41:07 +0200, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: Florian Lohoff wrote: Not only in a corner. In Germany the A3, going down the Elzer Berg (near Limburg an der Lahn in the eastward direction) has a speedlimit of 40 km/h on the right lane and 100 km/h (or 120? haven't been there in two years) on the left two lanes. That's no issue as it's 2 OSM-ways for the 2 directions of the motorway anyway. It is an issue becasue the speed limit is on different lanes going in the same direction. I just checked and see that in OSM there is a speedlimit of 100 km/h on the eastbound lanes. The speedlimit of 40 on the right of the three eastbound lanes is not tagged. Local situation is: = Cologne - Limburg - Cologne - Limburg - Cologne - Limburg = Cologne - Limburg (100) Cologne - Limburg (100) - Cologne - Limburg (40) = Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
Lennard wrote: Exactly, it's a moot point, and I included it mostly to make the point that there are so many subtle ways to handle maxspeed, that it would be difficult to make an all-encompassing tagging scheme. At some point, you'll just have to go with a generalized solution. The general solution is maxspeed is the highest of the maxspeeds of all classes of vehicle on that road. See also the signs we have in continental europe when you enter a country: there is usually a large sign specifying the maximum speeds on different roads (within town, outside town, motorway). I have never seen a different sign for mopeds, HGV's or vehicles with a caravan, it is always the maximum for all vehicles. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
Lennard wrote: The general solution is maxspeed is the highest of the maxspeeds of all classes of vehicle on that road. See also the signs we have in continental europe when you enter a country: there is usually a large sign specifying the maximum speeds on different roads (within town, outside town, motorway). I have never seen a different sign for mopeds, HGV's or vehicles with a caravan, it is always the maximum for all vehicles. In that case, your 100/100/40 example is easily collapsed into maxspeed=100. Let's see ... Hey, that's the current tagging scheme, already! Why did we need a change? :-) -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Lennard l...@xs4all.nl wrote: In that case, your 100/100/40 example is easily collapsed into maxspeed=100. Let's see ... Hey, that's the current tagging scheme, already! Why did we need a change? :-) Current GPSr's are only capable of knowing within 10m, most lanes are 2-3m, so any solution would have to take into account an easy way for information to be displayed as well. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
Florian Lohoff wrote: maxspeed:wet:forward:motorcycle=50 Afterwards add time based maxspeeds :) I think we'd need a generic way to tag conditional ... Have you already participated in the syntax poll for http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags ? It's basically there to decide whether to use colons as in your example or switch to something like maxspeed[wet][forward][motorcycle]. Why? Well, because those time conditions tend to have colons in them, too (such as 15:30-18:00), and because colons are usually used in situations where the order of the substrings matters - which isn't the case for conditions, maxspeed[motorcycle][wet][forward] would be exactly the same. Once we have decided about this, that proposal can be voted on (and, more importantly, used) and we *will* finally have a generic way to tag conditions. Then we can discuss the lane problem again. ;) Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
2009/7/30 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl: Lennard wrote: Exactly, it's a moot point, and I included it mostly to make the point that there are so many subtle ways to handle maxspeed, that it would be difficult to make an all-encompassing tagging scheme. At some point, you'll just have to go with a generalized solution. The general solution is maxspeed is the highest of the maxspeeds of all classes of vehicle on that road. See also the signs we have in continental europe when you enter a country: there is usually a large sign specifying the maximum speeds on different roads (within town, outside town, motorway). I have never seen a different sign for mopeds, HGV's or vehicles with a caravan, it is always the maximum for all vehicles. no, you're wrong. It's the maxspeed for normal cars. Drivers of different vehicles must inform themselves about local legislation when driving in another country. For bicycles in Germany I can tell you that general maxspeeds don't apply to them. And obviously you're also not travelling to Poland, otherwise you would have seen this sign: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Speedlimitsinpoland.png/424px-Speedlimitsinpoland.png cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: And obviously you're also not travelling to Poland, otherwise you would have seen this sign: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Speedlimitsinpoland.png/424px-Speedlimitsinpoland.png Nope, I haven't. And if I was driving past it I wouldn't know what was on it. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: It's basically there to decide whether to use colons as in your example or switch to something like maxspeed[wet][forward][motorcycle]. Why? Well, because those time conditions tend to have colons in You split based on the equal sign and it doesn't matter that the time condition or key uses colons. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
You split based on the equal sign and it doesn't matter that the time condition or key uses colons. Actually you don't have to, key values and key tags are stored independently of each other, writing it with an equal sign is simply a way of describing it and has nothing to do with how things are stored. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
