Re: [OSM-talk] England, Wales, Scotland borders
Peter Childs pchilds at bcs.org writes: The regional development agencies have quite big budgets, actually. But I'd agree that England needs to have it's own level. I think admin_level=5 and an update to the wiki might be the best move. I might have confused 'regions' with 'regional development agencies'. The latter do not have any real powers but the regions do at least elect MEPs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_development_agency So, although for most government purposes there is no layer in between English counties (outside London) and Westminster, the regions do just about exist for various obscure purposes, so I'd grudgingly accept they should be accorded an admin_level. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] England, Wales, Scotland borders
2009/10/7 Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com: Peter Childs pchilds at bcs.org writes: The regional development agencies have quite big budgets, actually. But I'd agree that England needs to have it's own level. I think admin_level=5 and an update to the wiki might be the best move. I might have confused 'regions' with 'regional development agencies'. The latter do not have any real powers but the regions do at least elect MEPs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_development_agency So, although for most government purposes there is no layer in between English counties (outside London) and Westminster, the regions do just about exist for various obscure purposes, so I'd grudgingly accept they should be accorded an admin_level. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com Hmm In that case should they not have the same Admin Level through out Europe, so a Electoral Area for an MEP is the same Admin level throughout Europe... Or does that make life difficult, for us to organise Euro wide consistency. Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] England, Wales, Scotland borders
Peter Childs pchilds at bcs.org writes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England So, although for most government purposes there is no layer in between English counties (outside London) and Westminster, the regions do just about exist for various obscure purposes, so I'd grudgingly accept they should be accorded an admin_level. Hmm In that case should they not have the same Admin Level through out Europe, so a Electoral Area for an MEP is the same Admin level throughout Europe... No, because a constituency boundary or voting district is not itself an administrative unit. It may be, but need not be. Constituencies for elections (from European Parliament region-blocks down to the level of wards for local councillors) are sometimes useful information, but they need their own tag, not admin_level. Hmm, I may have just contradicted what I said earlier... there are still little things like 'planned fire brigade co-ordination' which might justify English regions being treated as an administrative or political entity. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] England, Wales, Scotland borders
Igor Brejc igor.brejc at gmail.com writes: For days now I've been trying to figure out how I could render borders between England, Wales and Scotland using OSM data, 1. Borders between these countries are tagged with the same admin_level=4 as that of subdivisions inside England (example: North East England, http://osm.org/go/evykef-?relation=151164). Now I'm not a constitutional expert, but I think Wales and Scotland represent different level of territorial division than just a collection of England's counties. Agreed. These English regions are largely spurious (they have some kind of 'development agency' with a small budget, but no real political existence or power) and certainly not equivalent to the border between England and Scotland or between federal states in countries like the USA or Germany. They look very odd on the main slippy map. I propose to just retag them as anything other than admin_level=4, any objections? -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] England, Wales, Scotland borders
The regional development agencies have quite big budgets, actually. But I'd agree that England needs to have it's own level. Richard On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: Igor Brejc igor.brejc at gmail.com writes: For days now I've been trying to figure out how I could render borders between England, Wales and Scotland using OSM data, 1. Borders between these countries are tagged with the same admin_level=4 as that of subdivisions inside England (example: North East England, http://osm.org/go/evykef-?relation=151164). Now I'm not a constitutional expert, but I think Wales and Scotland represent different level of territorial division than just a collection of England's counties. Agreed. These English regions are largely spurious (they have some kind of 'development agency' with a small budget, but no real political existence or power) and certainly not equivalent to the border between England and Scotland or between federal states in countries like the USA or Germany. They look very odd on the main slippy map. I propose to just retag them as anything other than admin_level=4, any objections? -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] England, Wales, Scotland borders
2009/10/6 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com: The regional development agencies have quite big budgets, actually. But I'd agree that England needs to have it's own level. I think admin_level=5 and an update to the wiki might be the best move. Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] England, Wales, Scotland borders
Hi, For days now I've been trying to figure out how I could render borders between England, Wales and Scotland using OSM data, but I keep stumbling into same issues. Frankly, I think the way these things are tagged in UK is a mess (I don't know what the situation is in other places): 1. Borders between these countries are tagged with the same admin_level=4 as that of subdivisions inside England (example: North East England, http://osm.org/go/evykef-?relation=151164). Now I'm not a constitutional expert, but I think Wales and Scotland represent different level of territorial division than just a collection of England's counties. And anyway, the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative states level 4 is used for England/Scotland/Wales border and doesn't mention anything else. 2. There is no way to render JUST land borders. Maritime borders (territorial waters) are tagged exactly the same way as their continental counterparts. And even if you accept this limitation and decide to render territorial waters they are usually cut off in the available UK OSM extracts. 3. England's coast is also tagged as a border, but Wales' and Scotland's isn't. Please take my criticism as a constructive one. I'm trying to use OSM data in a real-life situation and I think borders are some of the more important data, since they are usually visible in smaller-scale maps (but usually _without_ marked territorial waters). The way UK's borders are now tagged, the only way to render them usefully would be to manually collect a list of OSM ways' IDs. Of course I could go and edit these things myself, but since I'm not usually covering this part of the world, I don't want to step on other people's toes :) Best regards, Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] England, Wales, Scotland borders
On 4 Oct 2009, at 08:12, Igor Brejc wrote: Hi, For days now I've been trying to figure out how I could render borders between England, Wales and Scotland using OSM data, but I keep stumbling into same issues. Frankly, I think the way these things are tagged in UK is a mess (I don't know what the situation is in other places): 1. Borders between these countries are tagged with the same admin_level=4 as that of subdivisions inside England (example: North East England, http://osm.org/go/evykef-?relation=151164). Now I'm not a constitutional expert, but I think Wales and Scotland represent different level of territorial division than just a collection of England's counties. And anyway, the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative states level 4 is used for England/Scotland/Wales border and doesn't mention anything else. 2. There is no way to render JUST land borders. Maritime borders (territorial waters) are tagged exactly the same way as their continental counterparts. And even if you accept this limitation and decide to render territorial waters they are usually cut off in the available UK OSM extracts. 3. England's coast is also tagged as a border, but Wales' and Scotland's isn't. Please take my criticism as a constructive one. I'm trying to use OSM data in a real-life situation and I think borders are some of the more important data, since they are usually visible in smaller-scale maps (but usually _without_ marked territorial waters). The way UK's borders are now tagged, the only way to render them usefully would be to manually collect a list of OSM ways' IDs. Of course I could go and edit these things myself, but since I'm not usually covering this part of the world, I don't want to step on other people's toes :) I have cross-posted this to talk-gb and I suggest that we continue the conversation there. We certainly need to use different levels for the UK and england/ scotland/wales but as always with borders it is a bit sensitive about how one does it. Is Scotland a 'country' or a 'region' etc. Regards, Peter Best regards, Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-GB] [OSM-talk] England, Wales, Scotland borders
On 4 Oct 2009, at 08:12, Igor Brejc wrote: Hi, For days now I've been trying to figure out how I could render borders between England, Wales and Scotland using OSM data, but I keep stumbling into same issues. Frankly, I think the way these things are tagged in UK is a mess (I don't know what the situation is in other places): 1. Borders between these countries are tagged with the same admin_level=4 as that of subdivisions inside England (example: North East England, http://osm.org/go/evykef-?relation=151164). Now I'm not a constitutional expert, but I think Wales and Scotland represent different level of territorial division than just a collection of England's counties. And anyway, the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative states level 4 is used for England/Scotland/Wales border and doesn't mention anything else. 2. There is no way to render JUST land borders. Maritime borders (territorial waters) are tagged exactly the same way as their continental counterparts. And even if you accept this limitation and decide to render territorial waters they are usually cut off in the available UK OSM extracts. 3. England's coast is also tagged as a border, but Wales' and Scotland's isn't. Please take my criticism as a constructive one. I'm trying to use OSM data in a real-life situation and I think borders are some of the more important data, since they are usually visible in smaller-scale maps (but usually _without_ marked territorial waters). The way UK's borders are now tagged, the only way to render them usefully would be to manually collect a list of OSM ways' IDs. Of course I could go and edit these things myself, but since I'm not usually covering this part of the world, I don't want to step on other people's toes :) I have cross-posted this to talk-gb and I suggest that we continue the conversation there. We certainly need to use different levels for the UK and england/ scotland/wales but as always with borders it is a bit sensitive about how one does it. Is Scotland a 'country' or a 'region' etc. Regards, Peter Best regards, Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
