Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de wrote: Besides I think there's a lot of fuzz about this move: If you check the editor tags in the latest changelog you can see that roughly 50% are using JOSM 2055. That's a 7 month old version and was issued stable back then. Even without the updated relation support many users seem to be able to get along very well. I think that 3155 will be useful at least the same amount of time. And if you miss something in winter 2010 you can switch to merkaartor or Mapzen 2.0 or OSM2Go or iLoe or OpenMaps or Well, I have been updating my JOSM regularly (at least as often as I can), running the newer of my josm-latest.jar and josm-custom.jar (SVN), but also keep an josm-stable.jar as up to date as possible in case something is broken in latest and SVN. Merkaartor is not an option for me as it have been too unstable, needed to be installed on computers where I don't have that type of access, etc. Besides I didn't like the interface of Merkaartor (maybe it have been improved, but I am not tempted to test). Mapzen is very much the same as Potlatch for me, a slow webbased applet, that works on only some of the computers I have available (meaning it can go weeks between each time I can use it). Web based editing is not really an option for me as much of my work are done offline with bulk uploads. There are probably a million options for doing edits in OSM, for me I need something that is powerfull without draining my laptop, stable, easy to keep up-to-date, have a good base of plugins, etc. JOSM wasn't quite that two years ago when I started contributing, but not many other options was available back then, and none that I was fully satisfied with. Now I have JOSM (which soon might disapear for me), I am very satisfied with all the features in it, it is very up to date on many issues, flexible in the way presets and map-paint work, etc. At the same time, I do not have time or resources to search around and test alternatives, meaning that when last JOSM j5 no longer is working for me, than maybe I have to stop contributing for a long time. As I am actively working on importing PD data of Brazil, than it is important for me to have an editor that I can check the integrity of the imported data, correct mistakes from the converter scripts, and much more. JOSM have been a good tool for me there. Before anybody tries to suggest other good alternative software for me, programs that only run under Windows, requires various .NET libraries, or with menues in German are not options for me. A ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
Hello, Greg Troxel typed: (Yes, I know about openjdk, and I've tried to run josm and mkgmap under it on NetBSD/i386. So far I'm not having a successful experience.) Using only free software, regardless if it is permissive or copyleft, JOSM works for me using OpenJDK 6. I have the openjdk-6-jre(6b11-9.1+lenny2) package installed on my gNewSense 3.0 OS which has a MIPSel-64 Central Processing Unit(cpu). I see in my package manager that openjdk-6-jdk(6b11-9.1+lenny2) is also available, although it is not installed on my system. I also used gNewSense 2.3 in the past which was based on Ubuntu Hardy (8.04). Both gNewSense 2.3 and Ubuntu Hardy (8.04) has OpenJDK version 6, (package openjdk-6-jre 6b11-2ubuntu2.1) and JOSM worked good on it! gNS 2.3 and Ubuntu Hardy (8.04) run on the i386 architecture cpu. The Operating System distribution I use now for most edits is Trisquel 3.0 based on Ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty Jackalope. Kind regards, Niklas -- signature.asc Description: Αυτό το σημείο του μηνύματος είναι ψηφιακά υπογεγραμμ ένο ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
Am 26.03.2010 09:52, Aun Johnsen: As I am actively working on importing PD data of Brazil, than it is important for me to have an editor that I can check the integrity of the imported data, correct mistakes from the converter scripts, and much more. JOSM have been a good tool for me there. Stick with JOSM and we will talk again in 7 months :) That's a lot of time for a lot of changes that can take place (You getting a new computer, a new JOSM j5 developer hopping on the train, a new edtiro showing up on stage, openjdk for older Macbooks) Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
On 3/25/10, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: The great irony is that the complaints about Apple not supplying Java 1.6 should really be directed at JOSM's use of a non-Free language implementation. actually, it is easier to get a free implementation of java 1.6 (openjdk) than one of java 1.5 the main problem with openjdk is that even if it is free it isn't easily ported to other archs, so even users of free systems on e.g. ppc or arm may have problems using josm. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' homepage: http://www.trueelena.org email: elena.valha...@gmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
I thought I'd reply generally to a few replies in this thread. Disclaimer: I'm not a JOSM developer, although I have submitted a few patches and a lot of bugs. JOSM like most of the OpenStreetMap toolset is developed by well-meaning developers in their free time. The direction the software takes is ultimately a function of what the people that submit code want to work on. If you think JOSM should do something that it doesn't do now submit patches, or at least submit a bug. There's a mention in the thread that JOSM mkgmap don't run under OpenJDK on NetBSD. Has there been a bug filed for this? I couldn't find any. How is anyone supposed to fix it if there at least isn't a report for the issue? To date I've filed around 300 bugs in JOSM's bugtracker, 170 of these have been fixed. JOSM's developers do care about issues you encounter, but they have to *know about them*. As for the Java 1.6 issue you can continue to run the last Java 1.5 release after the JOSM trunk has moved onto Java 1.6. The developers are putting effort into making sure that the last 1.5 release is stable. Even if you want to follow trunk you can still do that. Just dual-boot Debian[1] or Ubuntu[2] along with OSX and do your JOSM editing there. It's trivial to set up a Mac to dual boot (I ran this setup for years back when Mac hardware was worth the price for me). 1. http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/ 2. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPCDownloads ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
I am one of those unfortunate Mac users. When I got my Mac (it was a present, I didn't buy it) Java6 vs Java5 wasn't an issue. Most Java applets available for me to use at this time was Java5 or even older, and those few that ran optimally on Java6 was still executable in Java5. Two years later and the Java applet I use the most suddenly announces that within a month we will stop support for Java5. This is extremely short notice for me. And since I also have been using SVN version I should be able to compile my own last version. The problem here is that I am constantly on travel, usually with extremely limited connections to the internet. For me it would be appreciated that JOSM was split into another branch, so that we can have JOSM j5 and JOSM j6 side by side. I know that it will be some extra work on the developers, but that will allow for fairly up to date versions of both. As with all other software that are branching in this way we don't expect all versions to be equally updated, but it gives us that cannot change to the newer branch more time. The reason Mac doesn't implement Java6 is not the issue here. Maybe Mac have reasons for not implementing Java6, maybe they know secrets about the release of a future Java7. None of us are really in a position to know. Anyway I am not able just upgrade to Java6 at the moment, and do not know when I will have time to get a working Java6 (Sun Java6 not available, no knowledge about other versions java). A On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: I thought I'd reply generally to a few replies in this thread. Disclaimer: I'm not a JOSM developer, although I have submitted a few patches and a lot of bugs. JOSM like most of the OpenStreetMap toolset is developed by well-meaning developers in their free time. The direction the software takes is ultimately a function of what the people that submit code want to work on. If you think JOSM should do something that it doesn't do now submit patches, or at least submit a bug. There's a mention in the thread that JOSM mkgmap don't run under OpenJDK on NetBSD. Has there been a bug filed for this? I couldn't find any. How is anyone supposed to fix it if there at least isn't a report for the issue? To date I've filed around 300 bugs in JOSM's bugtracker, 170 of these have been fixed. JOSM's developers do care about issues you encounter, but they have to *know about them*. As for the Java 1.6 issue you can continue to run the last Java 1.5 release after the JOSM trunk has moved onto Java 1.6. The developers are putting effort into making sure that the last 1.5 release is stable. Even if you want to follow trunk you can still do that. Just dual-boot Debian[1] or Ubuntu[2] along with OSX and do your JOSM editing there. It's trivial to set up a Mac to dual boot (I ran this setup for years back when Mac hardware was worth the price for me). 1. http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/ 2. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPCDownloads ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
Am 25.03.2010 19:31, Aun Johnsen: For me it would be appreciated that JOSM was split into another branch, so that we can have JOSM j5 and JOSM j6 side by side. Actually that's exactly what the JOSM devs announced: After the JOSM j5 stable version is finished the j6 development continues and if anyone cares he can do backports of all the developments. But none of the current JOSM developers wants to do it and most probably it will be impossible to backport some of the new features because they are only possible with j6 without rewriting most parts of the app. Besides I think there's a lot of fuzz about this move: If you check the editor tags in the latest changelog you can see that roughly 50% are using JOSM 2055. That's a 7 month old version and was issued stable back then. Even without the updated relation support many users seem to be able to get along very well. I think that 3155 will be useful at least the same amount of time. And if you miss something in winter 2010 you can switch to merkaartor or Mapzen 2.0 or OSM2Go or iLoe or OpenMaps or Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
On 25 March 2010 20:05, Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de wrote: Am 25.03.2010 19:31, Aun Johnsen: For me it would be appreciated that JOSM was split into another branch, so that we can have JOSM j5 and JOSM j6 side by side. Actually that's exactly what the JOSM devs announced: After the JOSM j5 stable version is finished the j6 development continues and if anyone cares he can do backports of all the developments. But none of the current JOSM developers wants to do it and most probably it will be impossible to backport some of the new features because they are only possible with j6 without rewriting most parts of the app. Besides I think there's a lot of fuzz about this move: If you check the editor tags in the latest changelog you can see that roughly 50% are using JOSM 2055. That's a 7 month old version and was issued stable back then. Even without the updated relation support many users seem to be able to get along very well. I think that 3155 will be useful at least the same amount of time. And if you miss something in winter 2010 you can switch to merkaartor or Mapzen 2.0 or OSM2Go or iLoe or OpenMaps or In the case of Christian, his main reason for using JOSM like most French people actually is a specific plugin to access the Cadastre, which has been a major source of mapping in France. Anyway, I am sure that in the end a good enough solution will be found for everyone. OpenJDK is potentially a way. Porting the plugin to different editor like Merkaator or Potlatch2 might be a solution. Does Merkaator has a plugin mechanism which would allow us to add the tool? Now on the debate itself, I am a programmer, so I can understand the point of upgrading. Just my 2 cents to explain why Christian is so upset. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
I found a bit unsensitive Frederik Ramm's assumption that folks willfully chained to their Hardware/OS supplier and that supplier is unwilling to release Java6 for your platform, it may be time to finally ditch that supplier (he maybe missed typing a smiley, however). As pointed, it may be cool for OSM being running on free software, but that's no good not to pay any proper attention to people unwillingly harmed by the evolution (professionally or for whatever motive of their own). Maybe, Java 1.6 has very luring features, but the search of perfection by smart developers has to be weighted when considering the number of OSMers who cannot afford themselves any changement. In my case, there is no way to get Java 1.6 running on Mac PPC (I bought my machine four years ago). Meaning that people like me must invest is not a good answer. So, I do demand hat there will be a final and stable JOSM version for 1.5 with adequate cadastre.fr plug-in. This would have to be publicized on the homepage for loading (FR:WikiStartJOSM). Meanwhile, I remain a bit irritated by the suddenness and the lack of attention. Christian Rogel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Christian Rogel christian.ro...@club-internet.fr wrote: I found a bit unsensitive Frederik Ramm's assumption that folks willfully chained to their Hardware/OS supplier and that supplier is unwilling to release Java6 for your platform, it may be time to finally ditch that supplier (he maybe missed typing a smiley, however). As pointed, it may be cool for OSM being running on free software, but that's no good not to pay any proper attention to people unwillingly harmed by the evolution (professionally or for whatever motive of their own). Maybe, Java 1.6 has very luring features, but the search of perfection by smart developers has to be weighted when considering the number of OSMers who cannot afford themselves any changement. In my case, there is no way to get Java 1.6 running on Mac PPC (I bought my machine four years ago). Meaning that people like me must invest is not a good answer. So, I do demand hat there will be a final and stable JOSM version for 1.5 with adequate cadastre.fr plug-in. This would have to be publicized on the homepage for loading (FR:WikiStartJOSM). Meanwhile, I remain a bit irritated by the suddenness and the lack of attention. Hi Christian, Few things, First one, the announce of an end-of-life PPC product line thas been done in 2005, so 5 years ago. If you decided to buy one anyway, that's all your responsability. (maybe you just weren't aware of that... it's ok) Second, even if you couldn't run the last JOSM, I think the actual one is JDK 1.5 provides you almost all what you need. Maybe you won't be able to run the last features, but if JOSM is moving now, don't expect miracle from the next week... so your JOSM in j1.5 will be an old one, but not totally obsolete in the next months (which let you take the time to change eventually the one you have) Third, Apple has a big thing to do here... As said Fred. Ramm, Apple has a problem with java, and as a buy, it's a thing you have to judge for the choice of the product you're buying. Ok you won't be able to know what component you will need in 5 years... but if there is already a limitation, you can't really come and complain against developpers... Taking appart, there could be a backport... but I think we have better things to do.. plus, JKD 1.6 is 4 years old now... it's not like if it was asked you to run the last 1.7 not released, or a release not largely deployed. So don't panic anyway ! :) Christian Rogel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Steven Le Roux Jabber-ID : ste...@jabber.fr 0x39494CCB ste...@le-roux.info 2FF7 226B 552E 4709 03F0 6281 72D7 A010 3949 4CCB ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
Maybe, Java 1.6 has very luring features, but the search of perfection by smart developers has to be weighted when considering the number of OSMers who cannot afford themselves any changement. The two options have been weighed against each other and the outcome obviously was that it is worth the change. The number of JOSM users who can't use Java 1.6 is very small. The rest can just use an old version. In my case, there is no way to get Java 1.6 running on Mac PPC (I bought my machine four years ago). Meaning that people like me must invest is not a good answer. Everyone else stopping development or moving on isn't a good answer either. This Mac issue only affects a very very small fraction of all JOSM users as outlined earlier. Java 1.6 is _four_ years old if Apple decides not to support it or is very very slow this should not be our problem. So, I do demand hat there will be a final and stable JOSM version for 1.5 with adequate cadastre.fr plug-in. This would have to be publicized on the homepage for loading (FR:WikiStartJOSM). I doubt that a demand will get you very far. Are you currently using JOSM with the plugin? If so just keep using it. All this whining gets old very fast. Cheers, Lars ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
Christian, Christian Rogel wrote: Maybe, Java 1.6 has very luring features, but the search of perfection by smart developers has to be weighted when considering the number of OSMers who cannot afford themselves any changement. Developers are in shorter supply than mappers. I have resisted the move to 1.6 quite a while myself saying that it does us no good to require more than the average operating system can offer. But we've reached a point where developers actually have to waste time to find workarounds for stuff that would simply work in 1.6 - time that could also be used to fix bugs or improve the software in other ways. Tough as it may be for some users, we cannot indefinitely support old hardware, and with Java 1.6 the time has come to make a cut. But like all almost OSM software, JOSM is open source and you will of course be able to retrieve old software versions from SVN and build them on whatever flavour of Java you like... So, I do demand hat there will be a final and stable JOSM version for 1.5 with adequate cadastre.fr plug-in. ... just don't demand things. (It is actually quite likely that the last working 1.5 version will somehow be flagged and documented as such; maybe someone even makes a package with all the plugins. Actually - you could do that yourself!) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
Christian Rogel christian.ro...@club-internet.fr writes: I found a bit unsensitive Frederik Ramm's assumption that folks willfully chained to their Hardware/OS supplier and that supplier is unwilling to release Java6 for your platform, it may be time to finally ditch that supplier (he maybe missed typing a smiley, however). No, it seems quite clear that he's serious, and, given that anyone uses Java, reasonably so. Life marches on with libraries and language versions, and not moving along isn't really an option. The great irony is that the complaints about Apple not supplying Java 1.6 should really be directed at JOSM's use of a non-Free language implementation. The real bug is that JOSM is dependent on a non-Free JDK, instead of relying on a widely portable implementation available under an open source license. In other words (to be inflammatory) the JOSM community is willfully chained to a non-Free language implementation. (Yes, I know about openjdk, and I've tried to run josm and mkgmap under it on NetBSD/i386. So far I'm not having a successful experience.) pgpNSccavtCw3.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
On 25/03/10 00:11, Greg Troxel wrote: The great irony is that the complaints about Apple not supplying Java 1.6 should really be directed at JOSM's use of a non-Free language implementation. The real bug is that JOSM is dependent on a non-Free JDK, instead of relying on a widely portable implementation available under an open source license. In other words (to be inflammatory) the JOSM community is willfully chained to a non-Free language implementation. (Yes, I know about openjdk, and I've tried to run josm and mkgmap under it on NetBSD/i386. So far I'm not having a successful experience.) I've been running JOSM under OpenJDK on linux for a considerable period now with no problems at all. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
