Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Multiple Services to a Company/Building
2010/2/4 Ian Mc Shane ianmcsh...@live.co.za: 1) Do you want all that detail? Yes please :) +1 I understand why you want all that data, but very little of it is being visualized through www.openstreetmap.org, leading on to your next comment: that's 1. the current state 2. we're mainly a dataset-provider, not a map renderer But I don't have my own database - I want to use the OSM database... If you are not post processing the data then you will not likely be able to get any value from the extra data. Maybe he will later. Maybe I will. Maybe someone else will. From what I understand the openstreetmap.org map is purely for show and not meant to be THE place to view all the data... its up to other groups to show what they want e.g. cloudmade, cyclemap, etc... +1 cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Multiple Services to a Company/Building
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Are you sure it wouldn't be better to push for amenity=cafe;bakery;atm style multi-tagging instead? IIRC, there is opposition to multi-tagging - (I can't remember exactly who said that or why, though...I suspect it's because you then need to parse every single value string and turn it into a vector, rather than being able to use a much faster equality condition) But I do know that we currently do things like bicycle=designated + foot=designated, instead of designated=bicycle;foot. So my suggestion is more consistent with current practice. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Multiple Services to a Company/Building
Hello Roy, 1) Do you want all that detail? Yes please :) I understand why you want all that data, but very little of it is being visualized through www.openstreetmap.org, leading on to your next comment: But I don't have my own database - I want to use the OSM database... If you are not post processing the data then you will not likely be able to get any value from the extra data. And if people can not see the data, they won't know it is there, and then it will go out of date very quickly as products that a shop sells will change more often than the road network... even with road maintenance taken into account. With that said, OSM allows users to add as much detail as they want to add... and I am quite happy to add the detail, I just want to find out what is the best way to do that taking into account that this data will likely only be used by people who post-process OSM Data as the renders can not handle all the different options right now. From what I understand the openstreetmap.org map is purely for show and not meant to be THE place to view all the data... its up to other groups to show what they want e.g. cloudmade, cyclemap, etc... Maybe one day we will have pipemap.org showing us the world of pipes that live beneath our world but that is up to pipemap.org and not necessarily openstreetmap.org An alternative is to use something like a namespace concept. I do like the namespace concept, as well as what Steve was saying (Are you sure it wouldn't be better to push for amenity=cafe;bakery;atm style multi-tagging instead). I found it documented here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ#What_shall_I_do_for_roads_that_have_multiple_values_for_a_tag.3F. So going with our Spa example: shop=beauty beauty:tanning=yes beauty:massage=yes OR shop=beauty beauty=tanning;massage Multiple values separated by semicolons by far seems to me the simplest way to denote multiple values for a single key with less worry that keys will be overused. I think that maybe namespace option when things get horribly complicated and then the semicolon separated on a shorter/simpler list? Either mechanism is easy enough for people to do post processing on and still be able to group data nicely. Thanks for the feedback so far, it has been a learning experience. Ian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Multiple Services to a Company/Building
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Ian Mc Shane ianmcsh...@live.co.za wrote: From what I understand the openstreetmap.org map is purely for show and not meant to be THE place to view all the data... its up to other groups to show what they want e.g. cloudmade, cyclemap, etc... Yup, this is absolutely right. Data first, users (including renderers!) second. Maybe one day we will have pipemap.org showing us the world of pipes that live beneath our world but that is up to pipemap.org and not necessarily openstreetmap.org Funny you should mention that, because it already exists!: http://elanor.mine.nu/daeron/kartat.php?zoom=16lat=60.19553lon=24.95806layers=B00 I found it documented here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ#What_shall_I_do_for_roads_that_have_multiple_values_for_a_tag.3F. Ah, well spotted. Multiple values separated by semicolons by far seems to me the simplest way to denote multiple values for a single key with less worry that keys will be overused. I guess. There's advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. Thanks for the feedback so far, it has been a learning experience. No problem :) Oh, by the way, I just noticed that this thread has been on t...@openstreetmap.org. In future, for tagging-related stuff, please post to tagg...@openstreetmap.org (so those uninterested in tagging threads can ignore them). Cheers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Multiple Services to a Company/Building
Hello Roy, private banking services private_banking_services=yes foreign exchange foreign_exchange=yes tanning tanning=yes massage? massage=yes Yes that would do the job... I asked a friend of mine what his thoughts were and following are the results of our debate. Note that I am straying from the original question to a more high level view of the situation and breaking it up into two sections: 1) Do you want all that detail? 2) Assuming yes, how to denote the detail 1) Do you want all that detail? The first thing brought up was is that level of detail applicable to OSM? It was a bit of a yes and no answer, in that OSM, IMHO, has a function beyond mapping, and that is to describe the map. Describing a business and their products may be a little too much vs. just noting that they exist and they are in that building. The extra detail is probably more applicable to a higher level system which is geared towards the detail requested. For example a town/suburb website using OSM data for geo-location of businesses in the area would have their own database of what each business provides in terms of services and products... This can be noted in an example such as a Delicatessen... they range from small subset of specific foods to a whole range of different products but we can't detail what they sell categorically as product categories can change rapidly. So how much detail, is too much detail is the crux of it... and I suppose the crux of my original question. 2) Assuming yes, how to denote the detail: Let us assume we want the detail, how would we add the tags? While I do like what you suggested, an issue comes about when trying to work with the OSM data in your own backyard and/or rendering. The issue is with the grouping of the associated meta-data about the POI/building [entity]. For instance, tanning=yes, does that mean a spa provides tanning services or is it related to a factory that tans leather? The only way to find out is to hope that the name or the other tags on entity provide us with some more detail. shop=beauty tanning=yes amenity=factory tanning=yes Unfortunately an individual can not rely on the name to help out with understanding what the entity is when the name is in a language you have no concept of. And for me that is every other language besides Afrikaans and English... So for me to make use of data created by users in a foreign country I will likely have issues deriving what exactly the entity is when doing post-processing of OSM data. With all that said, going the route of: shop=beauty beauty=tanning beauty=massage etc. will help in identifying what type of tanning I am getting myself into... This may even help with the renderers, but considering I have no real knowledge of what is potting on the renderer side I won't comment any more on that. Anyway, this was supposed to be a short reply... so I will stop now. Please let me know on your thoughts. Ian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Multiple Services to a Company/Building
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Ian Mc Shane ianmcsh...@live.co.za wrote: 1) Do you want all that detail? Yes please :) For example a town/suburb website using OSM data for geo-location of businesses in the area would have their own database of what each business provides in terms of services and products... But I don't have my own database - I want to use the OSM database... This can be noted in an example such as a Delicatessen... they range from small subset of specific foods to a whole range of different products but we can't detail what they sell categorically as product categories can change rapidly. So does the road network :P Put it in OSM if: 1) it refers to a specific latitude and longitude 2) it's a verifiable fact 3) you want to Whether or not it's likely to go out of date quickly is not relevant - it just means we need more mappers... 2) Assuming yes, how to denote the detail: For instance, tanning=yes, does that mean a spa provides tanning services or is it related to a factory that tans leather? Well...before you decide to use tanning=yes, check if it's already used (tagwatch, wiki, etc.). If not, go ahead and use it - and document your use of it on the wiki. If someone comes along later to tag a factory, they'll need to choose their tag carefully, and update the documentation accordingly. Basically - for tag definitions, rely on the wiki. With all that said, going the route of: shop=beauty beauty=tanning beauty=massage etc. The problem is that you can only have one value per key, i.e. you could only have beauty=tanning OR beauty=massage. An alternative is to use something like a namespace concept. Have a look at how to tag amenity=parking's: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking. Notice the tags capacity:disabled=*, capacity:parent=*, etc. If you want to use this kind of scheme for the beauty example, I guess you could probably use: shop=beauty beauty:tanning=yes beauty:massage=yes etc. But this probably isn't necessary in this case. I'd be happy either way, as long as it's documented on the wiki... :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Multiple Services to a Company/Building
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Ian Mc Shane ianmcsh...@live.co.za wrote: private banking services private_banking_services=yes foreign exchange foreign_exchange=yes tanning tanning=yes massage? massage=yes I think this approach (turning x=tag into tag=yes) is problematic, due to the sheer number of tags it makes possible. Pretty soon there will be a semantic clash between an existing key, and an existing value. I don't know, a power company will go from office=power to power=yes or something, clashing with the existing power=* tags. Are you sure it wouldn't be better to push for amenity=cafe;bakery;atm style multi-tagging instead? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Tagging Multiple Services to a Company/Building
Message: 5 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:24:59 -0500 From: Richard Weait rich...@weait.com Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Wine Farm and Wellness Spa Tagging To: talk@openstreetmap.org Message-ID: a768be481001311124r33827146s316bca459035c...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Ian Mc Shane ianmcsh...@live.co.za wrote: I've been using shop=beauty for spas, tanning, nail salons, and similar. Then discriminating between them with the name tag. shop=beauty name=Something or other Spa Certainly using beauty=spa / tanning / nails / massage / etc. would work if needed. I am going to be doing more reading up on the Spa tagging, but I do like what you have done. Another question that came to mind when reading what you have done: How do I denote the different services that a particular company owned building provides? For example with a bank that provides private banking services as well as foreign exchange and maybe a few other things? not all banks provide all those services, some only provide a small subset. Or, in keeping with the spa example, a particular spa which provides a whole range of different services where another may only provide tanning and massage? Anyone have any thoughts or possible implementations? Thanks, Ian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Multiple Services to a Company/Building
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Ian Mc Shane ianmcsh...@live.co.za wrote: private banking services private_banking_services=yes foreign exchange foreign_exchange=yes tanning tanning=yes massage? massage=yes Note I'm just thinking aloud - but they would do the job, would they not...? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
