Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 03 nov 2016, alle ore 13:24, Aun Johnsen  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> For pedestrian routing, don’t count on restrictions for highway=primary, 
> highway=trunk, highway=motorway and highway=*_link to be set correctly, if 
> routing/non-routing is vital in surrounding of such roads, tag access on them 
> so routing software can override


I agree that motorways are likely not used for pedestrian routing (correctly, 
as it is the basic principle of motorways to exclude slow vehicles and 
pedestrians), but for trunks it is unsure and for primaries it is or should be 
sure that they are usable by pedestrians unless different access restrictions 
are tagged.

cheers,
Martin 
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[OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Aun Johnsen]

Rule of thumb when thinking routing:

Don’t count on motor vehicle routing on highway=track, highway=road and 
highway=service, implementation of these tags vary greatly in routing software

For pedestrian routing, don’t count on restrictions for highway=primary, 
highway=trunk, highway=motorway and highway=*_link to be set correctly, if 
routing/non-routing is vital in surrounding of such roads, tag access on them 
so routing software can override

Priority between streets, sidewalks, and walkways are something that needs to 
be sorted out in each routing application, if you encounter problems, best is 
to open a ticket or issue with the routing provider.

Aun Johnsen

> On Nov 3, 2016, at 10:00, talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
> Another issue with routing software might be the kind of OSM object on
> which a highway tag is put. Highway=pedestrian areas (and other highway
> areas, but pedestrian are the most common) could be tagged on
> multipolygons, but last time I checked this there were no routers
> evaluating them (not even for routing along the edges, hence leaving gaps
> for pedestrian routing).
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin


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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[john whelan]

So to sum up there are router solutions that are flexible enough to be
configured with what is in the map except for walking across a pedestrian
polygon so highways=track isn't a problem to them.  Cycling across a car
park doesn't seem to work either by the way.

We have a desperate need for knowledgable mappers on local road conditions
in Africa preferably locals on the grounds that they know the local
conditions best and hopefully over time they can clean up the map and retag
highways to an appropriate  tag.  Hopefully they can add a few cafes with
internet access as they go.

LearnOSM does include a reference to the African highway wiki entry so the
information is available in five languages all we need is mappers who read
instructions before mapping but that is a generic problem.

Thank you all for the input.

Cheerio John

On 2 November 2016 at 08:19, Maarten Deen  wrote:

> On 2016-11-02 12:17, Lester Caine wrote:
>
>> On 02/11/16 11:04, Milo van der Linden wrote:
>>
>>> As a devops I understand your pain ;-) but for OSRM, I found that using
>>> docker and staying on a fixed  docker version for OSRM makes the pain a
>>> lot easier.  You say you are using GPS in the car, do you also have a
>>> OSRM server running in the car? And is this server docker-ready? Because
>>> then I would strongly suggest you follow the instructions at
>>> https://hub.docker.com/r/osrm/osrm-backend/ it works like a charm for
>>> me.
>>>
>>
>> OSMAnd can be switched to use OSRM I think, but that requires a reliable
>> wireless broadband on the android phone, something that is becoming
>> worse rather than better. Even driving down the M5 I get gaps in
>> reception, so everything has to be local, which OSMAnd does a good job
>> of for most things ... just not B/unclassified roads :(
>>
>> Docker is yet another infrastructure tool to get ones head around ...
>>
>
> And to name another option you could use (and have to learn): brouter.de
> has an android app that can be used as routing engine for OSMAnd. You can
> configure it to your liking, but I'm not entirely sure the car routing is
> up to scratch. I use it for my bicycle routing.
>
> For the rest: I share your pain about OSMAnd.
>
> Maarten
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Maarten Deen]

On 2016-11-02 12:17, Lester Caine wrote:

On 02/11/16 11:04, Milo van der Linden wrote:
As a devops I understand your pain ;-) but for OSRM, I found that 
using
docker and staying on a fixed  docker version for OSRM makes the pain 
a

lot easier.  You say you are using GPS in the car, do you also have a
OSRM server running in the car? And is this server docker-ready? 
Because

then I would strongly suggest you follow the instructions at
https://hub.docker.com/r/osrm/osrm-backend/ it works like a charm for 
me.


OSMAnd can be switched to use OSRM I think, but that requires a 
reliable

wireless broadband on the android phone, something that is becoming
worse rather than better. Even driving down the M5 I get gaps in
reception, so everything has to be local, which OSMAnd does a good job
of for most things ... just not B/unclassified roads :(

Docker is yet another infrastructure tool to get ones head around ...


And to name another option you could use (and have to learn): brouter.de 
has an android app that can be used as routing engine for OSMAnd. You 
can configure it to your liking, but I'm not entirely sure the car 
routing is up to scratch. I use it for my bicycle routing.


For the rest: I share your pain about OSMAnd.

Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Another issue with routing software might be the kind of OSM object on
which a highway tag is put. Highway=pedestrian areas (and other highway
areas, but pedestrian are the most common) could be tagged on
multipolygons, but last time I checked this there were no routers
evaluating them (not even for routing along the edges, hence leaving gaps
for pedestrian routing).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Lester Caine]

On 02/11/16 11:04, Milo van der Linden wrote:
> As a devops I understand your pain ;-) but for OSRM, I found that using
> docker and staying on a fixed  docker version for OSRM makes the pain a
> lot easier.  You say you are using GPS in the car, do you also have a
> OSRM server running in the car? And is this server docker-ready? Because
> then I would strongly suggest you follow the instructions at
> https://hub.docker.com/r/osrm/osrm-backend/ it works like a charm for me.

OSMAnd can be switched to use OSRM I think, but that requires a reliable
wireless broadband on the android phone, something that is becoming
worse rather than better. Even driving down the M5 I get gaps in
reception, so everything has to be local, which OSMAnd does a good job
of for most things ... just not B/unclassified roads :(

Docker is yet another infrastructure tool to get ones head around ...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Milo van der Linden]

Hello Lester,

As a devops I understand your pain ;-) but for OSRM, I found that using
docker and staying on a fixed  docker version for OSRM makes the pain a lot
easier.  You say you are using GPS in the car, do you also have a OSRM
server running in the car? And is this server docker-ready? Because then I
would strongly suggest you follow the instructions at
https://hub.docker.com/r/osrm/osrm-backend/ it works like a charm for me.

2016-11-02 11:43 GMT+01:00 Lester Caine :

> On 02/11/16 10:07, Milo van der Linden wrote:
> > In OSRM routing profiles are scripted in lua files. I suggest you take a
> > look at them and see if they fit your needs.
>
> The current requirement is for something that actually works when I
> switch on GPS in the car. It's bad enough that the user interface seems
> to be different every time I NEED the thing - even having 'automatic
> update' off ...downloading new maps complains when the program has not
> been updated.
>
> I had a working OSRM service of my own, but I've not had time to rebuild
> everything to use the 'new' formats. Another distraction that was not
> really necessary? Just about every part of the current computing
> infrastructure seems to be subject to daily often pointless changes? :(
>
> I've just spent two days trying to get email services working again for
> clients because of breaks from the likes of yahoo and google ... just
> leave working systems alone ...
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Lester Caine]

On 02/11/16 10:07, Milo van der Linden wrote:
> In OSRM routing profiles are scripted in lua files. I suggest you take a
> look at them and see if they fit your needs.

The current requirement is for something that actually works when I
switch on GPS in the car. It's bad enough that the user interface seems
to be different every time I NEED the thing - even having 'automatic
update' off ...downloading new maps complains when the program has not
been updated.

I had a working OSRM service of my own, but I've not had time to rebuild
everything to use the 'new' formats. Another distraction that was not
really necessary? Just about every part of the current computing
infrastructure seems to be subject to daily often pointless changes? :(

I've just spent two days trying to get email services working again for
clients because of breaks from the likes of yahoo and google ... just
leave working systems alone ...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Milo van der Linden]

In OSRM routing profiles are scripted in lua files. I suggest you take a
look at them and see if they fit your needs.

https://github.com/Project-OSRM/osrm-backend/tree/master/profiles

2016-11-02 10:55 GMT+01:00 Lester Caine :

> On 02/11/16 08:41, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Lester Caine  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 02/11/16 00:57, john whelan wrote:
> > > If OSMand etc treat them differently then we may not be showing the
> > > shortest route.
> >
> > OSMAnd currently does not use the best routes in any rural area!
> While
> > the roads even in the UK may be 'unclassified', in many rural areas
> they
> > are the main routes and I have asked before how this 'bug' can be
> fixed.
> > Reclassifying the road is obviously wrong, but similarly changing the
> > routing rules is wrong for other parts of the world, so it's not
> just a
> > case of which routes are used, it's how the bias is applied to those
> > routes ... and currently OSMAnd is simply wrong for the UK!
> >
> >
> > Try playing with the routing settings in Osmand.  My part of the world
> > can get similarly obscure at the low end, but usually setting shortest
> > route helps.
>
> Unfortunately it needs a little more than just that. The end points need
> 'shortest route', but once one has avoided the - in my case 10 mile
> detour going north - one wants the motorway rather than the slightly
> shorter 'old road'. I have tried playing with the biases in the past but
> invariably they get reset by some update and I'm back to square one. So
> now I just take the 'b' roads and let the routing catch up later :)
>
> There is room for a more general discussion on standardising some of the
> tagging data along with the routing biases so that one can select a set
> of rules that best fit personal experience rather than having to try and
> live with less optimal generic rules?
>
> --
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> -
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> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Lester Caine]

On 02/11/16 08:41, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Lester Caine  > wrote:
> 
> On 02/11/16 00:57, john whelan wrote:
> > If OSMand etc treat them differently then we may not be showing the
> > shortest route.
> 
> OSMAnd currently does not use the best routes in any rural area! While
> the roads even in the UK may be 'unclassified', in many rural areas they
> are the main routes and I have asked before how this 'bug' can be fixed.
> Reclassifying the road is obviously wrong, but similarly changing the
> routing rules is wrong for other parts of the world, so it's not just a
> case of which routes are used, it's how the bias is applied to those
> routes ... and currently OSMAnd is simply wrong for the UK!
> 
> 
> Try playing with the routing settings in Osmand.  My part of the world
> can get similarly obscure at the low end, but usually setting shortest
> route helps.

Unfortunately it needs a little more than just that. The end points need
'shortest route', but once one has avoided the - in my case 10 mile
detour going north - one wants the motorway rather than the slightly
shorter 'old road'. I have tried playing with the biases in the past but
invariably they get reset by some update and I'm back to square one. So
now I just take the 'b' roads and let the routing catch up later :)

There is room for a more general discussion on standardising some of the
tagging data along with the routing biases so that one can select a set
of rules that best fit personal experience rather than having to try and
live with less optimal generic rules?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Warin]

On 02-Nov-16 08:16 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Michał Brzozowski wrote:

The rules for routing appear to be mostly global for popular
routers. There is very little magical sauce, if any.

I wouldn't say that. Obviously the demo instances for OSRM and GraphHopper
use their own vanilla profiles, but other routers very often have customised
profiles/rules. My own http://cycle.travel/map has a completely different,
much more complex profile than the standard OSRM bicycle profile, for
example.

John Whelan wrote:

Obviously if I select bicycle it won't use motorway or
footway but in general which highway types are used?

cycle.travel _does_ actually route over motorways and footways if
bicycle=yes tags are set. Many motorways in the US permit bikes (on the hard
shoulder); it's not uncommon to see a shared-use path in the UK tagged as
highway=footway, bicycle=yes; and a short distance pushing on a
highway=footway can often provide a good route. For highway=track, I treat
it differently for different countries: for example, in the UK I don't route
over highway=track unless access tags suggest it's permitted. cycle.travel
doesn't currently cover Africa and I have no plans to do so, but if it did I
would probably route over highway=track there.


And I'd recommend routing bicycles over highway=track in Asia too, very common 
due to the behaviour of traffic!


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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> The rules for routing appear to be mostly global for popular 
> routers. There is very little magical sauce, if any.

I wouldn't say that. Obviously the demo instances for OSRM and GraphHopper
use their own vanilla profiles, but other routers very often have customised
profiles/rules. My own http://cycle.travel/map has a completely different,
much more complex profile than the standard OSRM bicycle profile, for
example.

John Whelan wrote:
> Obviously if I select bicycle it won't use motorway or 
> footway but in general which highway types are used?

cycle.travel _does_ actually route over motorways and footways if
bicycle=yes tags are set. Many motorways in the US permit bikes (on the hard
shoulder); it's not uncommon to see a shared-use path in the UK tagged as
highway=footway, bicycle=yes; and a short distance pushing on a
highway=footway can often provide a good route. For highway=track, I treat
it differently for different countries: for example, in the UK I don't route
over highway=track unless access tags suggest it's permitted. cycle.travel
doesn't currently cover Africa and I have no plans to do so, but if it did I
would probably route over highway=track there.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 02/11/16 00:57, john whelan wrote:
> > If OSMand etc treat them differently then we may not be showing the
> > shortest route.
>
> OSMAnd currently does not use the best routes in any rural area! While
> the roads even in the UK may be 'unclassified', in many rural areas they
> are the main routes and I have asked before how this 'bug' can be fixed.
> Reclassifying the road is obviously wrong, but similarly changing the
> routing rules is wrong for other parts of the world, so it's not just a
> case of which routes are used, it's how the bias is applied to those
> routes ... and currently OSMAnd is simply wrong for the UK!
>

Try playing with the routing settings in Osmand.  My part of the world can
get similarly obscure at the low end, but usually setting shortest route
helps.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Lester Caine]

On 02/11/16 00:57, john whelan wrote:
> If OSMand etc treat them differently then we may not be showing the
> shortest route.

OSMAnd currently does not use the best routes in any rural area! While
the roads even in the UK may be 'unclassified', in many rural areas they
are the main routes and I have asked before how this 'bug' can be fixed.
Reclassifying the road is obviously wrong, but similarly changing the
routing rules is wrong for other parts of the world, so it's not just a
case of which routes are used, it's how the bias is applied to those
routes ... and currently OSMAnd is simply wrong for the UK!

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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Yves]

 Highway = track is supposed to be wide enough for motor vehicles,  so it's 
just that routers may miss a 4x4 setting? 
Yves 

Le 2 novembre 2016 00:57:08 GMT+01:00, "Michał Brzozowski" 
 a écrit :
>The rules for routing appear to be mostly global for popular routers.
>There is very little magical sauce, if any. You can try many routers
>from osm.org main page.
>OSRM, for instance, avoids track at all times, unless
>access=destination (or more particular class like motor_vehicle) is
>used.
>
>The issue with abuse of track probably boils down to its distinct
>appearance on the standard style. Imitation of existing data could
>also play a role in its spread.
>To get people to tag properly, we need to render unpaved on the
>standard style. See:
>https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/110
>It probably won't be exactly pretty, but it seems that's the only way
>to discipline people who think of OSM as of images - and use only the
>standard layer.
>
>Michał
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[john whelan]

> Mappers need to tag the truth, how it renders should not be a
consideration for mappers.
That would be 'ideal', realism strikes and there is a need for rendering
the truth is a way that rewards that truth.

But we are talking armchair mappers in Africa for the most part often ones
who have never mapped before.  Can we give them some guidance?  Do we care
if major highways are mapped as tracks?

I think my question is what is the impact.  If the routing software treats
highway=track the same as highway=unclassified then apart from looking
pretty there isn't a problem.  If OSMand etc treat them differently then we
may not be showing the shortest route.

The changeset approach is fine but I don't think its appropriate in the
face of thousands of these in Africa when if you look at the individual
they often joined OSM 9 months ago, made eight change-sets and haven't
mapped for the last 8 months.

The question is do we have a problem?

The second follow up question might be what do we do about it?  It could
just be a matter of something in learn OSM or something else.

Cheerio John

On 1 November 2016 at 20:39, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 02-Nov-16 10:57 AM, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
>
>> The rules for routing appear to be mostly global for popular routers.
>> There is very little magical sauce, if any. You can try many routers
>> from osm.org main page.
>> OSRM, for instance, avoids track at all times, unless
>> access=destination (or more particular class like motor_vehicle) is
>> used.
>>
>
> Bicycle are not motor_vehicles.
>
> Mountain Bikes would probably prefer 'tracks'.
>
>
>> The issue with abuse of track probably boils down to its distinct
>> appearance on the standard style. Imitation of existing data could
>> also play a role in its spread.
>> To get people to tag properly, we need to render unpaved on the
>> standard style. See:
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/110
>> It probably won't be exactly pretty, but it seems that's the only way
>> to discipline people who think of OSM as of images - and use only the
>> standard layer.
>>
>
> Tagging for the render. Or the reverse - rendering for the mapper?
>
> Mappers need to tag the truth, how it renders should not be a
> consideration for mappers.
> That would be 'ideal', realism strikes and there is a need for rendering
> the truth is a way that rewards that truth.
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Warin]

On 02-Nov-16 09:40 AM, john whelan wrote:
Obviously if I select bicycle it won't use motorway or footway but in 
general which highway types are used?


Some motorways and footways are used by bicycles ... access can be 
signified by the tag bicycle=yes.


Highway=road is avoided by some as it is the original temporary 
highway type for a GPS track when you don't know if its a motorway or 
highway=footway with steps but what about highway=track?


The question arises as there are a lot of highways in Africa that look 
quite major to me that are labelled highway=track and I wondered if 
they would be considered by routing software.  I am aware that each 
bit of software is different and yes I am aware of the African highway 
wiki here:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa which has 
definite guidelines about what a track is but can we come up with what 
is used?


What is used? By routing software?

As OSM 'tracks' would not be considered by most routers your out of luck 
there.
Bicycle routers and MTB routers are around .. certainly the MTB router 
would consider 'tracks'.


OR

What is used to signify 'tracks'?
I think the wiki is very clear on several pages. If you consider an 
entry in OSM is incorrectly tagged .. then


1) a polite way of asking about it is to make a comment on the first 
changeset that included that tag.
2) change it and see who complains .. can raise your profile, have your 
reasons lined up and include the basics on your changeset comments.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Warin]

On 02-Nov-16 10:57 AM, Michał Brzozowski wrote:

The rules for routing appear to be mostly global for popular routers.
There is very little magical sauce, if any. You can try many routers
from osm.org main page.
OSRM, for instance, avoids track at all times, unless
access=destination (or more particular class like motor_vehicle) is
used.


Bicycle are not motor_vehicles.

Mountain Bikes would probably prefer 'tracks'.



The issue with abuse of track probably boils down to its distinct
appearance on the standard style. Imitation of existing data could
also play a role in its spread.
To get people to tag properly, we need to render unpaved on the
standard style. See:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/110
It probably won't be exactly pretty, but it seems that's the only way
to discipline people who think of OSM as of images - and use only the
standard layer.


Tagging for the render. Or the reverse - rendering for the mapper?

Mappers need to tag the truth, how it renders should not be a consideration for 
mappers.
That would be 'ideal', realism strikes and there is a need for rendering the 
truth is a way that rewards that truth.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[Michał Brzozowski]

The rules for routing appear to be mostly global for popular routers.
There is very little magical sauce, if any. You can try many routers
from osm.org main page.
OSRM, for instance, avoids track at all times, unless
access=destination (or more particular class like motor_vehicle) is
used.

The issue with abuse of track probably boils down to its distinct
appearance on the standard style. Imitation of existing data could
also play a role in its spread.
To get people to tag properly, we need to render unpaved on the
standard style. See:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/110
It probably won't be exactly pretty, but it seems that's the only way
to discipline people who think of OSM as of images - and use only the
standard layer.

Michał

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[OSM-talk] Which type of highways are used by routing software?

[john whelan]

Obviously if I select bicycle it won't use motorway or footway but in
general which highway types are used?

Highway=road is avoided by some as it is the original temporary highway
type for a GPS track when you don't know if its a motorway or
highway=footway with steps but what about highway=track?

The question arises as there are a lot of highways in Africa that look
quite major to me that are labelled highway=track and I wondered if they
would be considered by routing software.  I am aware that each bit of
software is different and yes I am aware of the African highway wiki here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa which has definite
guidelines about what a track is but can we come up with what is used?

Many Thanks

Cheerio John
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