Re: [Talk-ca] building imports (was Re: Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 10)

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

On Jan 25, 2018, at 8:55 PM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
> I'm all for using the wiki, just want to consider the maintenance effort of 
> keeping the tasking manager in sync with the wiki.  If someone wants to do 
> that, so much the better!   Wikis can get stale quickly without someone(s) to 
> actively look at doing updates, like you're doing.

Right, except the BC2020 wiki has gone from zero to two links.  One link is 
enough (per sub-project, not tiles within a sub-project) to enter the Tasking 
Manager's "front door."  Yet "this" (Task 100, Ottawa - Validate Addresses and 
Split Terraces) hasn't had ANY link to the wiki (nor the Tasking Manager in 
general).  And that wiki is "only" for BC2020, yet Canada-wide.  It seems the 
Tasking Manager site, countrywide, and Canadian WikiProjects might enjoy a 
little harmony and organization.

And we just did, putting two links in one wiki.  More, later, in other 
(Canadian-based WikiProjects and the Canadian Tasking Manager) wikis?  Sounds 
good.  Not being local, I can't effectively do that, but others can, and I 
believe it will help.  A little bit of organization and project (links, wikis, 
mapping work...) connectivity (intra-OSM, as it were) goes a long way.  Nice 
working with you!

> Keep up the great work.

Thanks, you and BC2020 (and Canadians OSMers and all of OSM and all the little 
children...), too.

SteveA
California
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Re: [Talk-ca] building imports (was Re: Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 10)

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

> There are many more tasks on the task manager related to buildings if you are 
> so inclined to add them.   Is that the best way to go? or people can check 
> the task manager for projects in their area of interest?   (new tasks can be 
> easily added to the task manager... just ask!)

I sort of feel a need to just shut the heck up and let others post 
"communications about the WikiProject" (like OSM-TM links) TO the WikiProject 
(wiki).

That is all.  Keep the communication up and in the wiki rather than in "walled 
gardens" of "happen to know somebody" or "walled garden."

It's OSM, after all.  We use other forms of communication, but on a national 
project of scope this large, we can (and should and do) use the wiki.

Zippin' it closed for a while,
SteveA
California



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Re: [Talk-ca] building imports (was Re: Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 10)

[Matthew Darwin]

Hi Steve,

I'm all for using the wiki, just want to consider the maintenance 
effort of keeping the tasking manager in sync with the wiki.  If 
someone wants to do that, so much the better!   Wikis can get stale 
quickly without someone(s) to actively look at doing updates, like 
you're doing.


Keep up the great work.

On 2018-01-25 11:51 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

There are many more tasks on the task manager related to buildings if you are 
so inclined to add them.   Is that the best way to go? or people can check the 
task manager for projects in their area of interest?   (new tasks can be easily 
added to the task manager... just ask!)

I sort of feel a need to just shut the heck up and let others post "communications 
about the WikiProject" (like OSM-TM links) TO the WikiProject (wiki).

That is all.  Keep the communication up and in the wiki rather than in "walled gardens" of 
"happen to know somebody" or "walled garden."

It's OSM, after all.  We use other forms of communication, but on a national 
project of scope this large, we can (and should and do) use the wiki.

Zippin' it closed for a while,
SteveA
California


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Re: [Talk-ca] building imports (was Re: Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 10)

[Matthew Darwin]

Hi Steve,

There are many more tasks on the task manager related to buildings if 
you are so inclined to add them.   Is that the best way to go? or 
people can check the task manager for projects in their area of 
interest?   (new tasks can be easily added to the task manager... just 
ask!)


On 2018-01-25 11:39 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

On Jan 25, 2018, at 8:30 PM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:

I should mention that there are others in Ottawa working on completing the 
buildings.  The City import only had urban buildings.  Since the city of Ottawa 
is the largest rural city in Canada, so much work still to do.  See 
http://tasks.osmcanada.ca/project/114 and http://tasks.osmcanada.ca/project/100

See, now, like that:  I put these links into 
WikiProject_Canada/Building_Canada_2020.  (Where they belong, he suggest 
humbly).

I mean, I'm glad I learned about that here, as talk-ca seems an appropriate 
place to learn that.  Yet our wiki updated with those links took me about 
twenty seconds of cut-and-paste.

Yeah!

SteveA
California


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Re: [Talk-ca] building imports (was Re: Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 10)

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

On Jan 25, 2018, at 8:30 PM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
> I should mention that there are others in Ottawa working on completing the 
> buildings.  The City import only had urban buildings.  Since the city of 
> Ottawa is the largest rural city in Canada, so much work still to do.  See 
> http://tasks.osmcanada.ca/project/114 and 
> http://tasks.osmcanada.ca/project/100

See, now, like that:  I put these links into 
WikiProject_Canada/Building_Canada_2020.  (Where they belong, he suggest 
humbly).

I mean, I'm glad I learned about that here, as talk-ca seems an appropriate 
place to learn that.  Yet our wiki updated with those links took me about 
twenty seconds of cut-and-paste.

Yeah!

SteveA
California
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Re: [Talk-ca] building imports (was Re: Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 10)

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

On Jan 25, 2018, at 8:13 PM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
> I'm not who the "movers and shakers" are really.   There is nobody really 
> driving this project that I am aware of (the wiki suggests we should have a 
> steering committee).   Every time I see email sent to the original 
> distribution list of people invited to the meeting last September, I suggest 
> the conversation continue here, but never really does.(there is no 
> conversation really)

Thank you for your response, Matthew!

> What happened to all the agencies in that meeting that suggested this was a 
> good idea?  What are they doing to contribute?  I have no idea.

Well, somebody (besides me) is writing (and wrote) wiki.  Maybe it is becoming 
an "orphaned" project?  That would be a shame, it has such potential and 
respectable growth so far, it just looks a bit like a freshly-built ship 
without a rudder.  I think it has potential and momentum, the framework is 
there, a good pilot project in Ottawa seeds it well.  Looks like a "call out" 
to "agencies" and such takes some time for throats to be cleared and such and 
"hm, yeah, we're working on that, too."  OK, that happens.  In a day, in a 
week, in a month, after a quarter.  Clearly, it's early days in BC2020.  Shout 
out?!  (By me, here, now?)  Oh, a-a-agencies?  Anybody interested?

There, that oughta do it. :-)

> Personally I'm spending on average several days/week working on improving OSM 
> in the City of Ottawa.  (http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Matthew%20Darwin).  My 
> focus is roads geometry (mostly done... remaining work is pending getting 
> info from the City of Ottawa... waiting 6 months with no answers) then 
> addresses (in progress) then we'll see what's next Probably I will make 
> the tooling I've worked on available as open source, and then do work on 
> buildings.

I say it as necessary (it can be frequently):  OSM is a medium-term to 
longer-term project, especially with large-ish, 
regional/national/continental-sized sub-projects like WikiProject BC2020.  What 
I certainly don't want to happen is somebody gets "chased off" (whether by "I 
haven't the time" or "I don't stand tall enough to ride the ride" or many other 
reasons) and the whole initiative goes "poof."  It birthed as a brilliant flare 
and now toddles along.

If I may humbly say to the dear readers here:  I see many green lights ahead on 
BC2020.  There are some pesky obstacles like licensing and a good Import Plan 
(the Ottawa seed is a good start) but those do get resolved over the medium- 
and longer-term.  Crawl, walk, run:  excellent.

Regards,
SteveA
California
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Re: [Talk-ca] building imports (was Re: Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 10)

[Matthew Darwin]

I should mention that there are others in Ottawa working on completing 
the buildings. The City import only had urban buildings.  Since the 
city of Ottawa is the largest rural city in Canada, so much work still 
to do. See http://tasks.osmcanada.ca/project/114 and 
http://tasks.osmcanada.ca/project/100



On 2018-01-25 11:13 PM, Matthew Darwin wrote:


Hi Steve,

I'm not who the "movers and shakers" are really.   There is nobody 
really *driving* this project that I am aware of (the wiki suggests 
we should have a steering committee).   Every time I see email sent 
to the original distribution list of people invited to the meeting 
last September, I suggest the conversation continue here, but never 
really does.    (there is no conversation really)


What happened to all the agencies in that meeting that suggested 
this was a good idea?  What are they doing to contribute?  I have no 
idea.



Personally I'm spending on average several days/week working on 
improving OSM in the City of Ottawa.  
(http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Matthew%20Darwin). My focus is roads 
geometry (mostly done... remaining work is pending getting info from 
the City of Ottawa... waiting 6 months with no answers) then 
addresses (in progress) then we'll see what's next Probably I 
will make the tooling I've worked on available as open source, and 
then do work on buildings.



On 2018-01-25 04:00 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

PLEASE, movers and shakers within BC2020i:  wiki, wiki, wiki!  A great deal of 
Project Management (critical to better establish in these early days of 
BC2020i) and indeed intra-project communication (status, how far along, what's 
current and upcoming...) can be communicated, very WELL-communicated, via this 
wiki.  Go!




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Re: [Talk-ca] building imports (was Re: Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 10)

[Matthew Darwin]

Hi Steve,

I'm not who the "movers and shakers" are really.   There is nobody 
really *driving* this project that I am aware of (the wiki suggests we 
should have a steering committee).   Every time I see email sent to 
the original distribution list of people invited to the meeting last 
September, I suggest the conversation continue here, but never really 
does.    (there is no conversation really)


What happened to all the agencies in that meeting that suggested this 
was a good idea?  What are they doing to contribute?  I have no idea.



Personally I'm spending on average several days/week working on 
improving OSM in the City of Ottawa.  
(http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Matthew%20Darwin). My focus is roads 
geometry (mostly done... remaining work is pending getting info from 
the City of Ottawa... waiting 6 months with no answers) then addresses 
(in progress) then we'll see what's next Probably I will make the 
tooling I've worked on available as open source, and then do work on 
buildings.



On 2018-01-25 04:00 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

PLEASE, movers and shakers within BC2020i:  wiki, wiki, wiki!  A great deal of 
Project Management (critical to better establish in these early days of 
BC2020i) and indeed intra-project communication (status, how far along, what's 
current and upcoming...) can be communicated, very WELL-communicated, via this 
wiki.  Go!


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Re: [Talk-ca] Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 10

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

On Jan 25, 2018, at 12:16 PM, john whelan  wrote:
> About six years ago I wanted to import the local bus stops but the licences 
> weren't aligned.  It took about five years for the Canadian Federal 
> Government to first adopt an Open Government license that was open enough and 
> then for the City of Ottawa to adopt it.  It still needed to be looked over 
> by the legal working group before being accepted by OpenStreetMap.

Yes, Canadian "public" (municipal, provincial and federal government) open data 
(OD) licenses appear to have a long history of evolving to become 
ODbL-compatible.  Some very good work has been done here and it continues to 
evolve to a better state.  For the BC2020i, OSM has two wikis that "track" what 
is going on here:

https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Building_Canada_2020
is the project's "front door."  For a project with scope this huge (ten million 
buildings, nationwide in the geographically second-largest country on Earth...) 
communicating via wiki is very much "the OSM way" — and this BC2020i, simply 
put, IS an OSM project.  While this wiki's Governance section does say that (in 
these early days of the project) much intra-project communication happened via 
email amongst the early movers and shakers, it also says "we are working to 
improve this."  PLEASE, movers and shakers within BC2020i:  wiki, wiki, wiki!  
A great deal of Project Management (critical to better establish in these early 
days of BC2020i) and indeed intra-project communication (status, how far along, 
what's current and upcoming...) can be communicated, very WELL-communicated, 
via this wiki.  Go!

The other wiki (linked to in the "main" BC2020i wiki's "Inventory of Current 
Building Data Sets" section):
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Building_Canada_2020/building_OD_tables
does a good (early) job of displaying in three tables open data on buildings at 
municipal, provincial and federal/other/thematic levels.  Again, this project 
is in early days, and license compatibility with ODbL is also in 
early-to-middle (with encouraging progress) phases.  As a veteran OSMer both 
familiar with and with having very hands-on experience at nationwide projects 
(bicycle routes, rail infrastructure and passenger routes...) I am encouraged 
to see this table growing, license compatibility improving, and the "main" 
BC2020i wiki solidifying.  However, as a passionate OSM contributor, I'd like 
to see the "walled gardens" of more-private email communications and GitHub 
documentation come down, with such communications migrating their way into our 
wiki structure:  doing so is an important acknowledgement that this is an OSM 
project (and it is).

> The city though provided a file of every building outline in Ottawa.  Then it 
> was just a matter of adding tags to the buildings for Stats Canada.  That was 
> the Stat Can pilot project.

And, in my opinion, it was a successful demonstration pilot project, a solid 
foundation for BC2020i to launch further progress.  Keep up the good work!

> The import did need to be carefully handled.

As EVERY import does!  (Especially an important pilot project one, and in the 
capital city, no less).  The BC2020i links to the Ottawa Import Plan, which 
appears to be (as it is) OK documentation as to how the data were "harmonized 
from OD sources into OSM."  However, WikiProject BC2020 (and that's what it is) 
needs to go much further, documenting a REAL Import Plan for the entire 
project.  Our Import Guidelines at https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines 
MUST be followed, with an eye towards making the (nationwide, extensible to 
local sub-projects) Import Plan flexible enough to be handled by the full gamut 
of scenarios which may contribute data:  from high school tech/open data 
"fests" to Mapping Parties and Meetup groups, to large-scale (university-based, 
technology-company based, stakeholder-based...) data import intentions at a 
more local level.

> If you can get your hands on an Open Data file containing the building 
> outlines with the correct licensing it does make the task a lot easier.  
> Teaches the students about the value of Open Data at the same time.

Yes, "having OD" is PART of it, certainly making easier achievement of the goal 
(vision) of BC2020i.  However, as WikiProject BC2020 is an OSM project, there 
is more to it than that:  OSM's tenets of good data entry (especially when 
imported from public sources) MUST absolutely resonate with future uploads.  
Our wiki as a "project blueprint" and a nationwide Import Plan, flexible enough 
to be locally-modifiable to be successful, MUST "rule" the HOWs of data 
importation.  This "nationwide/project-wide" Import Plan, flexible enough to 
handle multiple scenarios and flavors of building data is ripe (overdue?) for 
completion.  It is an ambitious project, and I wish you the best of luck and 
success!

SteveA
California

Re: [Talk-ca] Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 10

[john whelan]

About six years ago I wanted to import the local bus stops but the licences
weren't aligned.  It took about five years for the Canadian Federal
Government to first adopt an Open Government license that was open enough
and then for the City of Ottawa to adopt it.  It still needed to be looked
over by the legal working group before being accepted by OpenStreetMap.

The city though provided a file of every building outline in Ottawa.  Then
it was just a matter of adding tags to the buildings for Stats Canada.
That was the Stat Can pilot project.

The import did need to be carefully handled.

If you can get your hands on an Open Data file containing the building
outlines with the correct licensing it does make the task a lot easier.
Teaches the students about the value of Open Data at the same time.

Cheerio John

On 24 January 2018 at 14:01, Jonathan Brown  wrote:

> Thank you for this useful information, John. The Washington DC Georgia Ave
> Youth Ambassador Mapping Project involving 7 university students and 20
> high school ambassadors from underrepresented groups
> http://teachosm.org/en/cases/georgia-ave/ is a good example of how OSM
> could support youth in gaining 21st Century competencies.
>
> They started with a good base map, used a form developed by NGOs to
> collect data, spoke to business owners about entrepreneurship and business
> skills, refined an “elevator pitch” to meet 21st century competencies in
> the curricula, and collected info on building facades and structures that
> business could use to apply for Great Streets revitalization grants.
>
> As part of their summer job as Youth Ambassadors, students mapped around
> 268 places. Some of the lessons learned that they posted on their wiki page
> included:
>
>- Being able to work with an the OSM MappingDC user group who already
>had a volunteer base, survey forms, and a good idea for a project was
>helpful. [Note: This is where cloning or forking an open data in education:
>what problem do you want to solve would be useful for communities that do
>not have access to these civic tech minded user groups. I have to drive
>over an hour to access these kinds of user groups from the rural community
>I live in here in Ontario]
>- the use of Field Papers from the start https://wiki.openstreetmap.
>org/wiki/Field_Papers to organize data collection
>- more training on iD (e.g., how to add to an existing place, here's
>how to search for the correct tag in iD and the Wiki)
>- some formal training on mouse and keyboard skills for some students
>was necessary
>- community-based organizations may not have the right computers for
>the students to use. Chromebooks seemed to always crash with every “save”
>in OSM iD Editor.
>- Used 6 computers and divided students into small groups based on
>area they were assigned to map and gave everyone a chance to "drive" for a
>while so that each student got familiar with the system
>- HOT Task manager and volunteers mapped all the buildings ahead of
>time so that the students could focus on the businesses
>-  Figuring out what is the best means of communication and having a
>regular check-in
>- a small outreach campaign to tell businesses that the students were
>coming, but some didn't want to talk to them. Perhaps some kind of official
>sticker/shirt/hat for the students to wear, to make it more clear that they
>are part of a program
>- field trip to Mapbox , a
>web mapping company, to show them how OpenStreetMap and geography is used
>for work and potential career pathways was well received by students.
>Include some swag for students.
>- the 20 youth ambassadors were supported by partners included an NGO
>mentoring organization http://www.momiestlc.org/, professor from
>https://geography.columbian.gwu.edu/
> and the MappingDC usergroup
>that set up TeachOSM http://teachosm.org/en/cases/ with great use
>cases in education. Note: Professors Nuala Cowan & Richard Hinton
>suggested that the “instructional module/assignment is applicable to
>many disciplines and teaching scenarios, and the objective of the TeachOSM
>resource is to open that possibility to these other fields, in a
>comprehensive user friendly way.” The Kathmandu Living Lab
> national housing reconstruction
>project is a great example of citizen science and civic engagement using 21
>st century mobile apps as is the Mapping the Forests of Nepal
>http://www.kathmandulivinglabs.org/events/geography-awareness-
>week-2c-pokhara-mapathon
>
> 
>
>
>
> Technical Questions:
>
>- How could Overpass Turbo be used to collect data from multiple
>mapathon