Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
Je suis certainement conscient des différences entre le Québec et la France. Pas comme un Canadien natal, bien sûr. C'est pourquoi j'ai dit "pour choisir l'une des nombreuses villes que j'ai embarquées dans les trains." Je ne suis pas monté à bord du train de banlieue canadien ou VIA (j’ai presque fait pendant les vacances) et le RER à Paris ne semble pas comparer des pommes et des hippopotames. Il semble que mes commentaires sérieux ne soient pas les bienvenus ou invitent à la recherche de la moindre erreur. Résumé très facile: S'il vous plaît nommez vos systèmes de transport comme bon vous semble pour les francophones de Montréal en utilisant une bonne syntaxe OSM et nous pourrons tous profiter de notre été. Je propose simplement des suggestions qui, je l’espère, favoriseraient une bonne cohérence entre les États-Unis, le Canada et le monde entier d’OSM et continueraient d’atteindre cet objectif. Bonne journée, Etienne Californie > On Aug 12, 2018, at 4:59 PM, James wrote: > > Résumé très facile: Paris ou la france ≠ Le Québec. > Le Québec fait les chose très différente de la France. > > On Sun., Aug. 12, 2018, 8:36 p.m. OSM Volunteer stevea, > wrote: > Ayant embarqué à bord de nombreux trains à Paris (pour choisir l'une des > nombreuses villes que j'ai embarquées dans les trains), OSM aux Halles dit > "operator=RATP" et "name=RER B". Certains disent que la pure consistance est > stupide. Je dis "trouver ce qui fonctionne et rester cohérent". > > Jusqu'à ce que v1 devienne v2 ou v2 devient v3; une telle croissance se > produit. Joli bavard avec toi, Canada. > > Etienne > Californie > > > On Aug 12, 2018, at 3:45 PM, James wrote: > > > > Personellement la STM est connu sous la STM sur toute la "branding" (bus, > > arrêts, site web(stm.ca), etc) La seule exception est que son nom légale > > est : Société de Transport de Montréal. Pareil pour la STO à > > Gatineau(Société de Transport de l'Outaouais) > ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
Résumé très facile: Paris ou la france ≠ Le Québec. Le Québec fait les chose très différente de la France. On Sun., Aug. 12, 2018, 8:36 p.m. OSM Volunteer stevea, < stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote: > Ayant embarqué à bord de nombreux trains à Paris (pour choisir l'une des > nombreuses villes que j'ai embarquées dans les trains), OSM aux Halles dit > "operator=RATP" et "name=RER B". Certains disent que la pure consistance > est stupide. Je dis "trouver ce qui fonctionne et rester cohérent". > > Jusqu'à ce que v1 devienne v2 ou v2 devient v3; une telle croissance se > produit. Joli bavard avec toi, Canada. > > Etienne > Californie > > > On Aug 12, 2018, at 3:45 PM, James wrote: > > > > Personellement la STM est connu sous la STM sur toute la "branding" > (bus, arrêts, site web(stm.ca), etc) La seule exception est que son nom > légale est : Société de Transport de Montréal. Pareil pour la STO à > Gatineau(Société de Transport de l'Outaouais) > > ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
Ayant embarqué à bord de nombreux trains à Paris (pour choisir l'une des nombreuses villes que j'ai embarquées dans les trains), OSM aux Halles dit "operator=RATP" et "name=RER B". Certains disent que la pure consistance est stupide. Je dis "trouver ce qui fonctionne et rester cohérent". Jusqu'à ce que v1 devienne v2 ou v2 devient v3; une telle croissance se produit. Joli bavard avec toi, Canada. Etienne Californie > On Aug 12, 2018, at 3:45 PM, James wrote: > > Personellement la STM est connu sous la STM sur toute la "branding" (bus, > arrêts, site web(stm.ca), etc) La seule exception est que son nom légale est > : Société de Transport de Montréal. Pareil pour la STO à Gatineau(Société de > Transport de l'Outaouais) ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
Personellement la STM est connu sous la STM sur toute la "branding" (bus, arrêts, site web(stm.ca), etc) La seule exception est que son nom légale est : Société de Transport de Montréal. Pareil pour la STO à Gatineau(Société de Transport de l'Outaouais) On Sun., Aug. 12, 2018, 7:39 p.m. OSM Volunteer stevea, < stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote: > "Raise matters" isn't something I did, it is something I am doing, as in > continuing dialog. Donc, merci pour la suggestion, mes deux années > d'écolier français devront suffire. This discussion did start in English. > If you think a wiki page with a simple table sketches out "here's how we do > this" (we've got one here for BART, > https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit and it syncs with > https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/California/Railroads ) as in "it doesn't take > much effort to say 'do it like this,'" hey, great. I'm all for that sort > of documentation and consistency and "let's communicate well." > > Really, some guy in California and some guy in a larger neighboring > country (with the longest, perhaps most lightly-protected border on Earth, > displaying obvious trust, history and centuries of good will) having a > discussion about improving/developing transport tagging doesn't seem it > should feel this antagonistic. Abbreviate, or don't. Pay attention to > infrastructure tagging, or don't. More (or less) closely align with USA > and OpenRailWay mapping conventions (there are differences, it makes sense > for countries to say "here's how WE do it" and "here's how we AND OUR > NEIGHBORS do it" makes sense for trains and bus schedules and bike routes. > Or don't. These things really are international and good dialog makes good > protocols. We're simply people talking on a mailing list; I happen to > believe that it's good that we do. > > Good dialog is good OSM. > > SteveA > California > > (DJT, not JDT, of course) > > > On Aug 12, 2018, at 3:15 PM, john whelan wrote: > > > > If you wish to raise matters about local mapping in Montreal I suggest > you use French as it is the language that most Montreal mappers are > familiar with. > > > > Cheerio John > > > > On 12 August 2018 at 17:37, OSM Volunteer stevea < > stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote: > > John, especially in light that we both volunteer in a wonderful > organization like OSM, I consider neither of us poor. Truly, I mean that. > > > > It wouldn't be "confused" that I might be. It would be much more > leaning towards, if not firmly in, the camp of "abbreviating in OSM > key:value pairs is frowned upon because it maps backwards incompletely." > That is a fair logical/mathematical/linguistic/database point. Getting > line-renderers to pay attention to short_name or alt_name or local_name or > coalesce on something sensible, sure, that's a happy place. I'd love to > see a transport renderer that is wicked-smart with v2 and even v3 savvy > colors, naming, routes and a "visual pop" that a good map does simply as > you look at it. That starts with good tagging including good discussion > about tagging. Simple as walking. > > > > Politics aside and whether hordes flee JDT or not, I am talking about > good tagging in OSM as transport networks and how they are named and "get > smart" really is happening all over Earth. Good protocols to "we're all > paying attention together" works. Whether ISO/UN/IEEE or other acronyms > and how a committee really can get the phones to connect and the trains > running on time, the ideas behind "let's agree on good language and > tagging..." work, this is simply being good neighbors. A big human family > sharing a map acts like a big human family sharing a map. We seem to > continue to do that here in talk-ca, talk-us and so on. Thank you. > > > > SteveA > > California > > > > > On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:17 PM, john whelan > wrote: > > > > > > Good heavens you mean we should spell out OCtranspo as Ottawa Carleton > Transpo in case any American tourists get confused? > > > > > > Unfortunately the locals will probably get confused with this and > whilst we should cater to these foreign tourists I think what is on the > signs locally will be less confusing to the locals unless of course we get > many more people streaming in to escape Donald. > > > > > > Or have I misunderstood some poor American? > > > > > > Cheerio John > > > > > > On Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 4:48 pm OSM Volunteer stevea, < > stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote: > > > Dusting off a month-old thread... > > > > > > Damien and Jarek, it seems the examples listed below both fit into a > "citizen mappers coalescing on a local/regional way to do things" as well > as a "somebody unfamiliar with Canadian transport mapping w.r.t. naming, > network and operator tag conventions" (maybe who reads our wikis, maybe who > does OT queries...) can figure this out quickly and sensibly. It's great > to see that's where things have landed, pretty close to a > sweet-spot/bullseye. > > > > > > However (if I have
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
"Raise matters" isn't something I did, it is something I am doing, as in continuing dialog. Donc, merci pour la suggestion, mes deux années d'écolier français devront suffire. This discussion did start in English. If you think a wiki page with a simple table sketches out "here's how we do this" (we've got one here for BART, https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit and it syncs with https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/California/Railroads ) as in "it doesn't take much effort to say 'do it like this,'" hey, great. I'm all for that sort of documentation and consistency and "let's communicate well." Really, some guy in California and some guy in a larger neighboring country (with the longest, perhaps most lightly-protected border on Earth, displaying obvious trust, history and centuries of good will) having a discussion about improving/developing transport tagging doesn't seem it should feel this antagonistic. Abbreviate, or don't. Pay attention to infrastructure tagging, or don't. More (or less) closely align with USA and OpenRailWay mapping conventions (there are differences, it makes sense for countries to say "here's how WE do it" and "here's how we AND OUR NEIGHBORS do it" makes sense for trains and bus schedules and bike routes. Or don't. These things really are international and good dialog makes good protocols. We're simply people talking on a mailing list; I happen to believe that it's good that we do. Good dialog is good OSM. SteveA California (DJT, not JDT, of course) > On Aug 12, 2018, at 3:15 PM, john whelan wrote: > > If you wish to raise matters about local mapping in Montreal I suggest you > use French as it is the language that most Montreal mappers are familiar with. > > Cheerio John > > On 12 August 2018 at 17:37, OSM Volunteer stevea > wrote: > John, especially in light that we both volunteer in a wonderful organization > like OSM, I consider neither of us poor. Truly, I mean that. > > It wouldn't be "confused" that I might be. It would be much more leaning > towards, if not firmly in, the camp of "abbreviating in OSM key:value pairs > is frowned upon because it maps backwards incompletely." That is a fair > logical/mathematical/linguistic/database point. Getting line-renderers to > pay attention to short_name or alt_name or local_name or coalesce on > something sensible, sure, that's a happy place. I'd love to see a transport > renderer that is wicked-smart with v2 and even v3 savvy colors, naming, > routes and a "visual pop" that a good map does simply as you look at it. > That starts with good tagging including good discussion about tagging. > Simple as walking. > > Politics aside and whether hordes flee JDT or not, I am talking about good > tagging in OSM as transport networks and how they are named and "get smart" > really is happening all over Earth. Good protocols to "we're all paying > attention together" works. Whether ISO/UN/IEEE or other acronyms and how a > committee really can get the phones to connect and the trains running on > time, the ideas behind "let's agree on good language and tagging..." work, > this is simply being good neighbors. A big human family sharing a map acts > like a big human family sharing a map. We seem to continue to do that here > in talk-ca, talk-us and so on. Thank you. > > SteveA > California > > > On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:17 PM, john whelan wrote: > > > > Good heavens you mean we should spell out OCtranspo as Ottawa Carleton > > Transpo in case any American tourists get confused? > > > > Unfortunately the locals will probably get confused with this and whilst we > > should cater to these foreign tourists I think what is on the signs locally > > will be less confusing to the locals unless of course we get many more > > people streaming in to escape Donald. > > > > Or have I misunderstood some poor American? > > > > Cheerio John > > > > On Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 4:48 pm OSM Volunteer stevea, > > wrote: > > Dusting off a month-old thread... > > > > Damien and Jarek, it seems the examples listed below both fit into a > > "citizen mappers coalescing on a local/regional way to do things" as well > > as a "somebody unfamiliar with Canadian transport mapping w.r.t. naming, > > network and operator tag conventions" (maybe who reads our wikis, maybe who > > does OT queries...) can figure this out quickly and sensibly. It's great > > to see that's where things have landed, pretty close to a > > sweet-spot/bullseye. > > > > However (if I have to "spoil" a good thing, oh, well, this is a discussion > > forum...) I do think that operator=RATP is a bit curt even as "tout le > > monde à Paris sait ce que signifie la RATP." (I recall being asked in a > > Regional Transportation Commission meeting what AASHTO stood for and I got > > it wrong, but then quickly got it right on the next try seconds later, > > alas, "too late"). It is true that an OSM convention is name=Saint
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
If you wish to raise matters about local mapping in Montreal I suggest you use French as it is the language that most Montreal mappers are familiar with. Cheerio John On 12 August 2018 at 17:37, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote: > John, especially in light that we both volunteer in a wonderful > organization like OSM, I consider neither of us poor. Truly, I mean that. > > It wouldn't be "confused" that I might be. It would be much more leaning > towards, if not firmly in, the camp of "abbreviating in OSM key:value pairs > is frowned upon because it maps backwards incompletely." That is a fair > logical/mathematical/linguistic/database point. Getting line-renderers > to pay attention to short_name or alt_name or local_name or coalesce on > something sensible, sure, that's a happy place. I'd love to see a > transport renderer that is wicked-smart with v2 and even v3 savvy colors, > naming, routes and a "visual pop" that a good map does simply as you look > at it. That starts with good tagging including good discussion about > tagging. Simple as walking. > > Politics aside and whether hordes flee JDT or not, I am talking about good > tagging in OSM as transport networks and how they are named and "get smart" > really is happening all over Earth. Good protocols to "we're all paying > attention together" works. Whether ISO/UN/IEEE or other acronyms and how a > committee really can get the phones to connect and the trains running on > time, the ideas behind "let's agree on good language and tagging..." work, > this is simply being good neighbors. A big human family sharing a map acts > like a big human family sharing a map. We seem to continue to do that here > in talk-ca, talk-us and so on. Thank you. > > SteveA > California > > > On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:17 PM, john whelan wrote: > > > > Good heavens you mean we should spell out OCtranspo as Ottawa Carleton > Transpo in case any American tourists get confused? > > > > Unfortunately the locals will probably get confused with this and whilst > we should cater to these foreign tourists I think what is on the signs > locally will be less confusing to the locals unless of course we get many > more people streaming in to escape Donald. > > > > Or have I misunderstood some poor American? > > > > Cheerio John > > > > On Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 4:48 pm OSM Volunteer stevea, < > stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote: > > Dusting off a month-old thread... > > > > Damien and Jarek, it seems the examples listed below both fit into a > "citizen mappers coalescing on a local/regional way to do things" as well > as a "somebody unfamiliar with Canadian transport mapping w.r.t. naming, > network and operator tag conventions" (maybe who reads our wikis, maybe who > does OT queries...) can figure this out quickly and sensibly. It's great > to see that's where things have landed, pretty close to a > sweet-spot/bullseye. > > > > However (if I have to "spoil" a good thing, oh, well, this is a > discussion forum...) I do think that operator=RATP is a bit curt even as > "tout le monde à Paris sait ce que signifie la RATP." (I recall being > asked in a Regional Transportation Commission meeting what AASHTO stood for > and I got it wrong, but then quickly got it right on the next try seconds > later, alas, "too late"). It is true that an OSM convention is name=Saint > Louis instead of name=St. Louis; abbreviations are frowned upon in > databases like OSM because they are "one-way in the wrong way." Please let > us not allow perfection to become the enemy of the very good or even > excellent and well-thought out and discussed, as are developing > public_transport OSM data in Canada. We're making a great map. > > > > Thank you again for spirited and interesting discussion. > > > > SteveA > > California > > > > > > > On Jul 16, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Damien Riegel > wrote: > > > > > > On 12 July 2018 at 17:17, OSM Volunteer stevea < > stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote: > > > On Jul 12, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Jarek Piórkowski > wrote: > > > > Damien's question appears to be about nodes like > > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/438843513, which has > > > > name=Berri-UQAM, operator=Société de transport de Montréal. > > > > short_name=STM seems inappropriate here, we could do > > > > operator:short_name=STM or something but it seems a bit much. > > > > > > Thank you for your analysis and reporting to the list, Jarek! Yes, I > agree that operator:short_name=STM is a bit of "overkill" (getting > over-specific on the key side). > > > > > > > The nearby station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26233453 has > > > > name=Jean-Drapeau, network=STM, operator=Société de transport de > > > > Montréal which seems like an attempt as good as we might get. > Commuter > > > > rail station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/548900549 has > > > > network=RTM, operator=Réseau de transport métropolitain which fits > > > > that scheme as well. Similar with a random bus line on North Shore > > > >
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
John, especially in light that we both volunteer in a wonderful organization like OSM, I consider neither of us poor. Truly, I mean that. It wouldn't be "confused" that I might be. It would be much more leaning towards, if not firmly in, the camp of "abbreviating in OSM key:value pairs is frowned upon because it maps backwards incompletely." That is a fair logical/mathematical/linguistic/database point. Getting line-renderers to pay attention to short_name or alt_name or local_name or coalesce on something sensible, sure, that's a happy place. I'd love to see a transport renderer that is wicked-smart with v2 and even v3 savvy colors, naming, routes and a "visual pop" that a good map does simply as you look at it. That starts with good tagging including good discussion about tagging. Simple as walking. Politics aside and whether hordes flee JDT or not, I am talking about good tagging in OSM as transport networks and how they are named and "get smart" really is happening all over Earth. Good protocols to "we're all paying attention together" works. Whether ISO/UN/IEEE or other acronyms and how a committee really can get the phones to connect and the trains running on time, the ideas behind "let's agree on good language and tagging..." work, this is simply being good neighbors. A big human family sharing a map acts like a big human family sharing a map. We seem to continue to do that here in talk-ca, talk-us and so on. Thank you. SteveA California > On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:17 PM, john whelan wrote: > > Good heavens you mean we should spell out OCtranspo as Ottawa Carleton > Transpo in case any American tourists get confused? > > Unfortunately the locals will probably get confused with this and whilst we > should cater to these foreign tourists I think what is on the signs locally > will be less confusing to the locals unless of course we get many more people > streaming in to escape Donald. > > Or have I misunderstood some poor American? > > Cheerio John > > On Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 4:48 pm OSM Volunteer stevea, > wrote: > Dusting off a month-old thread... > > Damien and Jarek, it seems the examples listed below both fit into a "citizen > mappers coalescing on a local/regional way to do things" as well as a > "somebody unfamiliar with Canadian transport mapping w.r.t. naming, network > and operator tag conventions" (maybe who reads our wikis, maybe who does OT > queries...) can figure this out quickly and sensibly. It's great to see > that's where things have landed, pretty close to a sweet-spot/bullseye. > > However (if I have to "spoil" a good thing, oh, well, this is a discussion > forum...) I do think that operator=RATP is a bit curt even as "tout le monde > à Paris sait ce que signifie la RATP." (I recall being asked in a Regional > Transportation Commission meeting what AASHTO stood for and I got it wrong, > but then quickly got it right on the next try seconds later, alas, "too > late"). It is true that an OSM convention is name=Saint Louis instead of > name=St. Louis; abbreviations are frowned upon in databases like OSM because > they are "one-way in the wrong way." Please let us not allow perfection to > become the enemy of the very good or even excellent and well-thought out and > discussed, as are developing public_transport OSM data in Canada. We're > making a great map. > > Thank you again for spirited and interesting discussion. > > SteveA > California > > > > On Jul 16, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Damien Riegel wrote: > > > > On 12 July 2018 at 17:17, OSM Volunteer stevea > > wrote: > > On Jul 12, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: > > > Damien's question appears to be about nodes like > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/438843513, which has > > > name=Berri-UQAM, operator=Société de transport de Montréal. > > > short_name=STM seems inappropriate here, we could do > > > operator:short_name=STM or something but it seems a bit much. > > > > Thank you for your analysis and reporting to the list, Jarek! Yes, I agree > > that operator:short_name=STM is a bit of "overkill" (getting over-specific > > on the key side). > > > > > The nearby station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26233453 has > > > name=Jean-Drapeau, network=STM, operator=Société de transport de > > > Montréal which seems like an attempt as good as we might get. Commuter > > > rail station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/548900549 has > > > network=RTM, operator=Réseau de transport métropolitain which fits > > > that scheme as well. Similar with a random bus line on North Shore > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3472432 > > > > > ___ > Talk-ca mailing list > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
Good heavens you mean we should spell out OCtranspo as Ottawa Carleton Transpo in case any American tourists get confused? Unfortunately the locals will probably get confused with this and whilst we should cater to these foreign tourists I think what is on the signs locally will be less confusing to the locals unless of course we get many more people streaming in to escape Donald. Or have I misunderstood some poor American? Cheerio John On Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 4:48 pm OSM Volunteer stevea, < stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote: > Dusting off a month-old thread... > > Damien and Jarek, it seems the examples listed below both fit into a > "citizen mappers coalescing on a local/regional way to do things" as well > as a "somebody unfamiliar with Canadian transport mapping w.r.t. naming, > network and operator tag conventions" (maybe who reads our wikis, maybe who > does OT queries...) can figure this out quickly and sensibly. It's great > to see that's where things have landed, pretty close to a > sweet-spot/bullseye. > > However (if I have to "spoil" a good thing, oh, well, this is a discussion > forum...) I do think that operator=RATP is a bit curt even as "tout le > monde à Paris sait ce que signifie la RATP." (I recall being asked in a > Regional Transportation Commission meeting what AASHTO stood for and I got > it wrong, but then quickly got it right on the next try seconds later, > alas, "too late"). It is true that an OSM convention is name=Saint Louis > instead of name=St. Louis; abbreviations are frowned upon in databases like > OSM because they are "one-way in the wrong way." Please let us not allow > perfection to become the enemy of the very good or even excellent and > well-thought out and discussed, as are developing public_transport OSM data > in Canada. We're making a great map. > > Thank you again for spirited and interesting discussion. > > SteveA > California > > > > On Jul 16, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Damien Riegel > wrote: > > > > On 12 July 2018 at 17:17, OSM Volunteer stevea < > stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote: > > On Jul 12, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Jarek Piórkowski > wrote: > > > Damien's question appears to be about nodes like > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/438843513, which has > > > name=Berri-UQAM, operator=Société de transport de Montréal. > > > short_name=STM seems inappropriate here, we could do > > > operator:short_name=STM or something but it seems a bit much. > > > > Thank you for your analysis and reporting to the list, Jarek! Yes, I > agree that operator:short_name=STM is a bit of "overkill" (getting > over-specific on the key side). > > > > > The nearby station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26233453 has > > > name=Jean-Drapeau, network=STM, operator=Société de transport de > > > Montréal which seems like an attempt as good as we might get. Commuter > > > rail station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/548900549 has > > > network=RTM, operator=Réseau de transport métropolitain which fits > > > that scheme as well. Similar with a random bus line on North Shore > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3472432 > > > > > ___ > Talk-ca mailing list > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
Dusting off a month-old thread... Damien and Jarek, it seems the examples listed below both fit into a "citizen mappers coalescing on a local/regional way to do things" as well as a "somebody unfamiliar with Canadian transport mapping w.r.t. naming, network and operator tag conventions" (maybe who reads our wikis, maybe who does OT queries...) can figure this out quickly and sensibly. It's great to see that's where things have landed, pretty close to a sweet-spot/bullseye. However (if I have to "spoil" a good thing, oh, well, this is a discussion forum...) I do think that operator=RATP is a bit curt even as "tout le monde à Paris sait ce que signifie la RATP." (I recall being asked in a Regional Transportation Commission meeting what AASHTO stood for and I got it wrong, but then quickly got it right on the next try seconds later, alas, "too late"). It is true that an OSM convention is name=Saint Louis instead of name=St. Louis; abbreviations are frowned upon in databases like OSM because they are "one-way in the wrong way." Please let us not allow perfection to become the enemy of the very good or even excellent and well-thought out and discussed, as are developing public_transport OSM data in Canada. We're making a great map. Thank you again for spirited and interesting discussion. SteveA California > On Jul 16, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Damien Riegel wrote: > > On 12 July 2018 at 17:17, OSM Volunteer stevea > wrote: > On Jul 12, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: > > Damien's question appears to be about nodes like > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/438843513, which has > > name=Berri-UQAM, operator=Société de transport de Montréal. > > short_name=STM seems inappropriate here, we could do > > operator:short_name=STM or something but it seems a bit much. > > Thank you for your analysis and reporting to the list, Jarek! Yes, I agree > that operator:short_name=STM is a bit of "overkill" (getting over-specific on > the key side). > > > The nearby station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26233453 has > > name=Jean-Drapeau, network=STM, operator=Société de transport de > > Montréal which seems like an attempt as good as we might get. Commuter > > rail station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/548900549 has > > network=RTM, operator=Réseau de transport métropolitain which fits > > that scheme as well. Similar with a random bus line on North Shore > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3472432 > ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
On 12 July 2018 at 17:17, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote: > On Jul 12, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: > > Damien's question appears to be about nodes like > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/438843513, which has > > name=Berri-UQAM, operator=Société de transport de Montréal. > > short_name=STM seems inappropriate here, we could do > > operator:short_name=STM or something but it seems a bit much. > > Thank you for your analysis and reporting to the list, Jarek! Yes, I > agree that operator:short_name=STM is a bit of "overkill" (getting > over-specific on the key side). > > > The nearby station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26233453 has > > name=Jean-Drapeau, network=STM, operator=Société de transport de > > Montréal which seems like an attempt as good as we might get. Commuter > > rail station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/548900549 has > > network=RTM, operator=Réseau de transport métropolitain which fits > > that scheme as well. Similar with a random bus line on North Shore > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3472432 > > I find that operator=* is a key which certainly applies to "underlying > rail infrastructure" objects (railway=rail), especially when the rail is > freight-oriented, though I have also seen operator=* set to the value of > the passenger operator when the underlying infrastructure is one of > [railway=light_rail, railway=subway, railway=tram] on more > passenger-oriented rail. Though, I seem to recall more frequently (I'd > have to do some Overpass Turbo queries to confirm this) network=* is > applied to the passenger (not freight) elements instead of operator=*, both > are used, both seem correct. > > Without getting "lost in the weeds," there are/were three "levels" of > railway route relations: #1 is/used to be route=tracks (largely if not > completely deprecated in North America, but maybe still used in Germany), > #2 is route=railway (a grouping of what we in N.A. call "Subdivisions" or > "Branches" or "Industrial Lines") and #3 is route=train relations for > passenger rail. We can (and do) have passenger rail as route=train > relations all over N.A. withOUT the "underlying infrastructure" of > route=railway relations, but I, others and indeed OSM consider this > incomplete and rather sloppy. The Germans use all three (or did). The > Bottom Line for what we in N.A. should do is to use BOTH of the "middle-" > (#2, route=railway) and #3 "higher-" level (route=train) relations to > describe "track infrastructure" and "passenger rail routes." OK, thanks > for reading all that, it makes a better OSM. > > > Looking through map very casually I didn't see any operator=STM on the > > subway. I did see it on a bus line > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/270258 but changing it to > > network=STM and operator=Société de transport de Montréal seems like > > it'd be fine there IMO. > > Yes, again, I agree. > > > To me "operator" looks a bit more little technical than the other > > tags, so to me it would be alright to use the longer more formal name. > > But I wouldn't edit-war anyone about it. I'd say run a query, see > > which is more common currently, ask people here (as you've done), then > > after a week change the minority tags to match. > > You saying "more technical" might be agreeing with me that operator=* is > at a "lower/middle level" (infrastructure on track, not "higher level" as > applied to the different relation of route=train for passenger rail). So I > think we are largely in agreement: if you (and Canada) want to move into > the direction of putting operator=* on freight rail (and maybe sometimes > passenger rail), yes, that seems correct. If you additionally want to use > the network=* key for, in this example, STM, yes, that makes perfect sense > to me as well. So does your suggestion/approach of "run a (OT) > query...change minority tags to match." > Well, actually my question is much simpler than that. In Montréal, I think network and operator should have the same values for all nodes and ways, because there is only one organization that owns and operates the network. So my question is not really about which tag should be set on what node (the operator vs. network discussion we're having here), but more about should the value of these tags be a fully spelled out name, or the commonly use acronym (a bit like in France where we refer to the public transport provider with the name "RATP", never with the full name "Régie Autonome des Transports Parisien"). Thank you, Damien ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
On Jul 12, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: > Damien's question appears to be about nodes like > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/438843513, which has > name=Berri-UQAM, operator=Société de transport de Montréal. > short_name=STM seems inappropriate here, we could do > operator:short_name=STM or something but it seems a bit much. Thank you for your analysis and reporting to the list, Jarek! Yes, I agree that operator:short_name=STM is a bit of "overkill" (getting over-specific on the key side). > The nearby station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26233453 has > name=Jean-Drapeau, network=STM, operator=Société de transport de > Montréal which seems like an attempt as good as we might get. Commuter > rail station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/548900549 has > network=RTM, operator=Réseau de transport métropolitain which fits > that scheme as well. Similar with a random bus line on North Shore > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3472432 I find that operator=* is a key which certainly applies to "underlying rail infrastructure" objects (railway=rail), especially when the rail is freight-oriented, though I have also seen operator=* set to the value of the passenger operator when the underlying infrastructure is one of [railway=light_rail, railway=subway, railway=tram] on more passenger-oriented rail. Though, I seem to recall more frequently (I'd have to do some Overpass Turbo queries to confirm this) network=* is applied to the passenger (not freight) elements instead of operator=*, both are used, both seem correct. Without getting "lost in the weeds," there are/were three "levels" of railway route relations: #1 is/used to be route=tracks (largely if not completely deprecated in North America, but maybe still used in Germany), #2 is route=railway (a grouping of what we in N.A. call "Subdivisions" or "Branches" or "Industrial Lines") and #3 is route=train relations for passenger rail. We can (and do) have passenger rail as route=train relations all over N.A. withOUT the "underlying infrastructure" of route=railway relations, but I, others and indeed OSM consider this incomplete and rather sloppy. The Germans use all three (or did). The Bottom Line for what we in N.A. should do is to use BOTH of the "middle-" (#2, route=railway) and #3 "higher-" level (route=train) relations to describe "track infrastructure" and "passenger rail routes." OK, thanks for reading all that, it makes a better OSM. > Looking through map very casually I didn't see any operator=STM on the > subway. I did see it on a bus line > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/270258 but changing it to > network=STM and operator=Société de transport de Montréal seems like > it'd be fine there IMO. Yes, again, I agree. > To me "operator" looks a bit more little technical than the other > tags, so to me it would be alright to use the longer more formal name. > But I wouldn't edit-war anyone about it. I'd say run a query, see > which is more common currently, ask people here (as you've done), then > after a week change the minority tags to match. You saying "more technical" might be agreeing with me that operator=* is at a "lower/middle level" (infrastructure on track, not "higher level" as applied to the different relation of route=train for passenger rail). So I think we are largely in agreement: if you (and Canada) want to move into the direction of putting operator=* on freight rail (and maybe sometimes passenger rail), yes, that seems correct. If you additionally want to use the network=* key for, in this example, STM, yes, that makes perfect sense to me as well. So does your suggestion/approach of "run a (OT) query...change minority tags to match." Thank you for good discussion, SteveA ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
Hi all, Damien's question appears to be about nodes like https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/438843513, which has name=Berri-UQAM, operator=Société de transport de Montréal. short_name=STM seems inappropriate here, we could do operator:short_name=STM or something but it seems a bit much. The nearby station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26233453 has name=Jean-Drapeau, network=STM, operator=Société de transport de Montréal which seems like an attempt as good as we might get. Commuter rail station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/548900549 has network=RTM, operator=Réseau de transport métropolitain which fits that scheme as well. Similar with a random bus line on North Shore https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3472432 Looking through map very casually I didn't see any operator=STM on the subway. I did see it on a bus line https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/270258 but changing it to network=STM and operator=Société de transport de Montréal seems like it'd be fine there IMO. To me "operator" looks a bit more little technical than the other tags, so to me it would be alright to use the longer more formal name. But I wouldn't edit-war anyone about it. I'd say run a query, see which is more common currently, ask people here (as you've done), then after a week change the minority tags to match. --Jarek On 11 July 2018 at 04:45, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote: > Hello Damien: > > I'm "meh, OK" with an operator=STM value, but I freely say I haven't checked > in completely with whomever you mean by "the minority." (I "haven't heard > of" any controversy one way or the other, STM or full-name. But that isn't > saying much on my part). I watch what's up with North American rail and it > seems that key-value pair is somewhere around the beginning of correct, at > least from my perspective, fwiw. Being right on it (there) you are way more > on it than I am. I'm sorta like a linguist here. > > However, OSM does have a short_name key and I'd be even better with > short_name=STM or alt_name=STM and operator=Société de transport de Montréal > if you want to get dotting-of-i and crossing-of-t about it. > > I mean, there are wiki pages on loc_name, nat_name, official_name, > short_name, alt_name and more, it's a slightly rich and deep topic in OSM and > in our wiki. I say STM is somewhere around alt_name or short_name. That is > one person's opinion. What happens, happens. I'm a guy typing words right > now, so, yeah. > > I also I notice when people get my name exactly right, as I appreciate that. > And look at that, both of us got "Société de transport de Montréal" exactly > right too (twice), making it a good candidate value for the name=* key. > > SteveA > California > >> On Jul 10, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Damien Riegel wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> >> I'm new to this list so please forgive me if this topic has already been >> discussed. >> >> In Montréal, the public transportation provider is the "Societé de transport >> de Montréal", more commonly known as STM. Some (the minority) nodes use the >> full name, all the others use the acronym. it would be great to get rid of >> that discrepancy. >> >> If I had to give my opinion on the matter, I'd say "STM" is more appropriate >> as almost everything is branded under the "STM" name (for instance the >> website is https://stm.info, their Facebook page is called "STM - Mouvement >> collectif"), so that's the name people use. I think that also explains why >> "STM" is way more common as operator value than the full name. >> >> >> Regards, >> Damien >> ___ >> Talk-ca mailing list >> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > > > ___ > Talk-ca mailing list > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
Hello Damien: I'm "meh, OK" with an operator=STM value, but I freely say I haven't checked in completely with whomever you mean by "the minority." (I "haven't heard of" any controversy one way or the other, STM or full-name. But that isn't saying much on my part). I watch what's up with North American rail and it seems that key-value pair is somewhere around the beginning of correct, at least from my perspective, fwiw. Being right on it (there) you are way more on it than I am. I'm sorta like a linguist here. However, OSM does have a short_name key and I'd be even better with short_name=STM or alt_name=STM and operator=Société de transport de Montréal if you want to get dotting-of-i and crossing-of-t about it. I mean, there are wiki pages on loc_name, nat_name, official_name, short_name, alt_name and more, it's a slightly rich and deep topic in OSM and in our wiki. I say STM is somewhere around alt_name or short_name. That is one person's opinion. What happens, happens. I'm a guy typing words right now, so, yeah. I also I notice when people get my name exactly right, as I appreciate that. And look at that, both of us got "Société de transport de Montréal" exactly right too (twice), making it a good candidate value for the name=* key. SteveA California > On Jul 10, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Damien Riegel wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > I'm new to this list so please forgive me if this topic has already been > discussed. > > In Montréal, the public transportation provider is the "Societé de transport > de Montréal", more commonly known as STM. Some (the minority) nodes use the > full name, all the others use the acronym. it would be great to get rid of > that discrepancy. > > If I had to give my opinion on the matter, I'd say "STM" is more appropriate > as almost everything is branded under the "STM" name (for instance the > website is https://stm.info, their Facebook page is called "STM - Mouvement > collectif"), so that's the name people use. I think that also explains why > "STM" is way more common as operator value than the full name. > > > Regards, > Damien > ___ > Talk-ca mailing list > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name
Hi everyone, I'm new to this list so please forgive me if this topic has already been discussed. In Montréal, the public transportation provider is the "Societé de transport de Montréal", more commonly known as STM. Some (the minority) nodes use the full name, all the others use the acronym. it would be great to get rid of that discrepancy. If I had to give my opinion on the matter, I'd say "STM" is more appropriate as almost everything is branded under the "STM" name (for instance the website is https://stm.info, their Facebook page is called "STM - Mouvement collectif"), so that's the name people use. I think that also explains why "STM" is way more common as operator value than the full name. Regards, Damien ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
