Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Warin]

On 14-Aug-17 11:49 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

On 14/08/2017 14:47, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:

I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.


Ask who?? Don't think there is a formal process to change the wiki, and 
I have made a few changes without comment.


I'm documenting the existing practice in Wales.

If you want to change existing practice, the onus is on you to justify 
your changes and get agreement.


Agreement with who?

If I disagree with with wiki .. I make comment on the talk page .. and 
then hope someone who disagrees, cares, notices and makes a reply.
Where the wiki page does not have much information .. I'll go ahead and 
add to it.


 If it is a tagging issue I'll raise it with the tagging group/list.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Mike Evans]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:31:08 +0100
Miguel Sevilla-Callejo  wrote:

> El 14/8/2017 14:42, "Andy Townsend"  escribió:
> 
> Hi Miguel,
> 
> A question.  Many places in Wales are predominantly Welsh- or predominantly
> English-speaking.  For somewhere like https://www.openstreetmap.org/
> node/3378387351 , if "name" was a compound of both the Welsh and English
> names rather than the more frequently / locally used version, how would I
> know what the preferred name actually was?
> 
> 

> 
> Saludos
> 
> Miguel
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
I'm a Welsh mapper, born here, in an English speaking part of Wales, south 
Pembrokeshire.

I must admit that I hadn't even thought about the Welsh/English thing, since it 
never was an issue for me. I've always just mapped what was there.

As far as the dominance/superiority of English, we're (or at least I am, in my 
late 50's) used to it and pretty much ignore it. Personally I don't care. But 
I've also encountered some people in Aber who cared intensely. Let them; life 
is short.

I agree the WIKI is mostly a guide, (like the pirate) code). and I've often 
tried to reference it and sometimes been more confused after than before. 
Mostly, I've been informed though.

I map what I know, locally. I don't seagull (which is really annoying, as 
there's really no such thing as a "seagull" species, but I guess you knew that. 
Right?) map, or, Bing map, unless it's bloody obvious. (Re: Pokemon).

Anyway, that's my view as a Welsh mapper.

That said. People wanting to improve the map should be given all the help 
available and a confusing WIKI is of no help at all.

Feel free to contact me for other random thoughts.

Lostmike
Wales
Saludos

Being Welsh doesn't make me special. Or does it?...


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Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

El 14/8/2017 14:42, "Andy Townsend"  escribió:

Hi Miguel,

A question.  Many places in Wales are predominantly Welsh- or predominantly
English-speaking.  For somewhere like https://www.openstreetmap.org/
node/3378387351 , if "name" was a compound of both the Welsh and English
names rather than the more frequently / locally used version, how would I
know what the preferred name actually was?


Of course there could be places as nodes it could have an English or Welsh
name as their more common one. A survey is needed for that.

Anyway an neutral approach is right from my point of view and I was talking
mainly about street names.


Currently the answer is easy - look at the "name" tag.  If "name" is
instead a compound, how do you suggest a map consumer - or someone just
looking at a map - should do that?


Yes


There are several places in the World like some regions in Spain, as I said
before, where we use this approach.

I guess some of you don't like only for eastetic problem and I'm afraid
some could think Welsh is a minor or not serious language (even within the
BBC in London some think so...)

Anyway there is no reason to have the most frequently situation I found:
name=English; name:cy=Welsh_name. In this situation Welsh is been relegated
to a second place. Then, at least we have to add a "name:en" and later
let's think what to do with "name" tag. It's cristal clear for me.

No more comments about the arbitrary and unilateral change in the wiki.
It's amazing! I'm telling that in Spanish community and they couldn't
believe.

Saludos

Miguel


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 14/08/2017 15:04, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> So how can you determine the preferred name from looking at that sign ?
>
>
> From looking at the sign, you can't - but if you visit a place and open your
> eyes and ears it'll become pretty obvious.  If you walk into a shop or a
> post office in the pointy bits of north Wales I can pretty much guarantee
> that people will be speaking Welsh.  It would be unfair and unrepresentative
> to suggest that English has equivalence where that is the case.  Signs -
> particularly road signs - appear in two languages throughout, but that
> doesn't mean that in a particular area both languages are in equal usage.
>

So, yes, Wales is different than Brussels. Following your rule, it
would mean many streets would have a French name in Brussels (if not
all).
Which would then create a political incident :-)

> What you can't expect to do is jump in with a "global search and replace"
> such as https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50943658 using level0 and
> not get complaints.

+1, I'll agree on that.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Andy Townsend]

On 14/08/2017 15:04, Marc Gemis wrote:

So how can you determine the preferred name from looking at that sign ?


From looking at the sign, you can't - but if you visit a place and open 
your eyes and ears it'll become pretty obvious.  If you walk into a shop 
or a post office in the pointy bits of north Wales I can pretty much 
guarantee that people will be speaking Welsh.  It would be unfair and 
unrepresentative to suggest that English has equivalence where that is 
the case.  Signs - particularly road signs - appear in two languages 
throughout, but that doesn't mean that in a particular area both 
languages are in equal usage.


What you can't expect to do is jump in with a "global search and 
replace" such as https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50943658 using 
level0 and not get complaints.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Marc Gemis]

Andy,

I'll agree that everything is not like in Belgium (luckily :-)  ). But
the screenshots Miguel showed, has street signs showing 2 names.
So how can you determine the preferred name from looking at that sign ?
And also preferred to who ?

If you someone manage to determine that in a purely objective way, you
can fill in the name. I fail to see how the process to determine the
preferred name works.
In this thread I only read something about a few mappers deciding that it is X.

regards

m.

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 14/08/2017 14:53, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> Can I translate this to the Belgian situation to see if I understand
>> you correctly ?
>
>
> Marc,
>
> Everywhere is not like Belgium.  Could you try answering the question?
> Where there is a locally preferred name, how would I know what that was?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Andy Townsend]

On 14/08/2017 14:53, Marc Gemis wrote:

Can I translate this to the Belgian situation to see if I understand
you correctly ?


Marc,

Everywhere is not like Belgium.  Could you try answering the question?   
Where there is a locally preferred name, how would I know what that was?


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Marc Gemis]

I don't understand this question. Who defines what the preferred name
is ? The people living in that street, neighborhood, village, Wales ?
Or the subset of mappers in any of those items ?

Can I translate this to the Belgian situation to see if I understand
you correctly ?

We came up with a solution where there is no preferred way for the
mapper, s/he writes in the name field what is on the street name sign
(nl & fr) and fills in the name:nl, name:fr fields. The data consumer
can then make a map with his/her preference.
Roughly 60% of the Belgian are Flemish and will prefer the nl-version.
But the majority of the inhabitants of Brussels (or certain
neighborhoods) are probably French speaking and well prefer the
fr-version. So "preferred" really depends on which group of people you
question.
Since this is rather subjective, writing down what you see on a sign
is much easier then starting a poll, not ?

regards

m.

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> Hi Miguel,
>
> A question.  Many places in Wales are predominantly Welsh- or predominantly
> English-speaking.  For somewhere like
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3378387351 , if "name" was a compound of
> both the Welsh and English names rather than the more frequently / locally
> used version, how would I know what the preferred name actually was?
>
> Currently the answer is easy - look at the "name" tag.  If "name" is instead
> a compound, how do you suggest a map consumer - or someone just looking at a
> map - should do that?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.

At least you could add a link to this thread or something like "this issue
is under discussion".

Cheers

--
 Miguel Sevilla-Callejo
from my mobile 

El 14/8/2017 14:30, "Richard Fairhurst"  escribió:

> I've fixed the wiki to reflect Chris's comments, given that he's a resident
> of Wales and has a long pedigree in creating the Welsh-language rendering
> so
> is better qualified than the rest of us to pronounce on this.[1] The much
> shorter text should hopefully also be easier for new mappers to follow.
>
>
> Marc Gemis wrote:
> > my conclusion: please do not map in the UK.
>
> Absolutely not - everyone is and should be welcome. But it's generally good
> practice in OSM, whatever the country, to "be liberal in what you add,
> conservative in what you change". If you find yourself changing vast
> swathes
> of existing data, you should generally ask yourself why it was as it was.
> Sometimes there's a good reason, but that reason is usually TIGER!
>
> Richard
>
> [1] though I'm not going to completely absent myself from this given that I
> partly have a degree in this stuff, as part of which I was fortunate enough
> to be taught by people who know more about Brittonic placenames than pretty
> much anyone ;)
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.
> com/Edits-in-Wales-tp5899896p5900648.html
> Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Richard Fairhurst]

I've fixed the wiki to reflect Chris's comments, given that he's a resident
of Wales and has a long pedigree in creating the Welsh-language rendering so
is better qualified than the rest of us to pronounce on this.[1] The much
shorter text should hopefully also be easier for new mappers to follow.


Marc Gemis wrote:
> my conclusion: please do not map in the UK.

Absolutely not - everyone is and should be welcome. But it's generally good
practice in OSM, whatever the country, to "be liberal in what you add,
conservative in what you change". If you find yourself changing vast swathes
of existing data, you should generally ask yourself why it was as it was.
Sometimes there's a good reason, but that reason is usually TIGER!

Richard

[1] though I'm not going to completely absent myself from this given that I
partly have a degree in this stuff, as part of which I was fortunate enough
to be taught by people who know more about Brittonic placenames than pretty
much anyone ;)



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[Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

Ops, I see I reply these other two emails privately.

Despite the miss interpretation I guess it's useful to show my point of
view.

--
 Miguel Sevilla-Callejo
from my mobile 
-- Mensaje reenviado --
De: "Miguel Sevilla-Callejo" 
Fecha: 14/8/2017 10:45
Asunto: Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales
Para: "Marc Gemis" 
Cc:

Thank you for the clarification.
I didn't understand, LOL
Well, I could reply one by one which is Ok ;-)
Thanks

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from my mobile 

El 14/8/2017 10:37, "Marc Gemis"  escribió:

> >
> > my conclusion: please do not map in the UK.
> >
>
> Sorry for not being more clear: this is not my advice. This what I
> feel this thread is passing as a message.
> it should be much easier to add /update any feature without having to
> consult the community to find out the hidden rules.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
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[Talk-GB] Fwd: Re: Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

I'm forwarding an email I sent only to Andy  by mistake yesterday.

--
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-- Mensaje reenviado --
De: "Andy Townsend" 
Fecha: 13/8/2017 19:04
Asunto: Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales
Para: 
Cc:

On 11/08/2017 17:19, Brian Prangle wrote:
>
> ...  and goes to the first source of what is seen to be the authoritative
> source - the wiki- to seek guidance,
>
>
> Unfortunately, the wiki isn't always "the authoritative source".  Articles
> written there include both "descriptive" and "prescriptive" ones - saying
> how mappers currently map things, and telling them how they _should_ map
> things.  When it comes to "how to map things" often there needs to be a
> discussion, because no one person has the whole picture.  Sometimes people
> writing wiki articles take great care to represent the different views
> where they exist and try and thread a consensus course through them (Harry
> Wood please take a bow at this point); and sometimes they don't.
>
> For example, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalks says that "The
> simplest method is to tag the associated highway with sidewalk
> =both/left/right/no
> (none is sometimes used, but no is preferred
> )", despite
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk#values showing that
> "none" is the more popular value.  I tried to make the wiki reflect usage
> but it was immediately changed back because "The statement never
> described predominant usage, but preferred usage. That hasn't changed.".
> Clearly someone thinks that _they_ know better than me and the majority of
> sidewalk mappers in OSM.  Rather than "insisting" it is correct as per
> https://www.xkcd.com/386/ I decided that life was too short.  I suspect
> that something rather similar has happened with regard to language tagging
> in Wales.
>
> and then asks, from etiquette, what the local community thinks,
>
>
> To be fair, from reading the emails it doesn't read to me like that was
> what was happening; it reads very much like he was telling everyone that
> disagreed with him that they were wrong without offering any reasoning
> beyond "the wiki says...".
>
> Unfortunately every multiple-language situation is complicated (and with a
> DWG hat on I've been involved in quite a few).  Some communities (Belgium
> being a notable early example) have settled on a compound "name" that
> doesn't reflect any language name on the ground but is intended to indicate
> that both have equal value; some - possibly the majority, but not by much -
> go with name as the "most used value" - so "Eteläinen Rautatiekatu" rather
> than the rather large mouthful "Eteläinen Rautatiekatu / Södra
> Järnvägsgatan"* for the street in Helsinki that I used to stay when working
> there, despite all street signs being bilingual.  Some have gone for
> locally-relevant variations of both.  However it's always the wishes of the
> local mappers that should hold most sway (and, again from personal
> experience with a DWG hat on, that can get difficult when one community is
> under-represented in OSM).
>
> *Can this discussion  specifically address what is wrong with the wiki
> page on Welsh placenames
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>  and suggest
> improvements?*
>
>
> I'd start by asking some more Welsh mappers!  So far we've had the person
> who created the original cyosm map arguing against a compound name, along
> with a number of (very) frequent visitors from England.  Other than the
> person who raised the issue we've not yet had much of a balancing
> population on the other side of the argument; but not everyone follows
> changeset discussion comments or this list.  When the status of Western
> Sahara was raised with the DWG I went through a fairly long process which
> started at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=602864#
> p602864 to ensure that everyone's views could be taken on board and to
> make sure that no-one was missed - I made sure that ever mapper in the
> region who'd recently mapped affected objects had a comment in a changeset
> discussion (and if no reply a direct message) in what appeared to be their
> usual language.  Contacting _every_ mapper who's mapped in Wales is
> unlikely to be feasible but contacting a subset of regular mappers (perhaps
> based edit count > a certain value) and based on some sort of "edits in
> Wales" criterion could be doable, but based on the Western Sahara survey
> I'd expect that it'd be a sizable amount of effort; just putting up a "web
> survey" form somewhere and hoping people come to it won't cut it.
>
> If after that sort of discussion there's still opposition to "compound
> names" in Wales I'd suggest that an initial change to the wiki page would
> be the removal of the 

[Talk-GB] Flood in Nepal

[marekskleciak]

Hi guys, here an video from Nepal:   www.youtube.com www.youtube.com   Help is 
needed here:  tasks.hotosm.org tasks.hotosm.org  tasks.hotosm.org 
tasks.hotosm.org  tasks.hotosm.org tasks.hotosm.org  tasks.hotosm.org 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Latest OS Opendata

[Chris Hill]

On 09/08/2017 22:38, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:

On 9 August 2017 at 18:13, Chris Hill  wrote:

I have a rather strange explanation as to why Forestry Commission land is
not shown on the OS Open Greenspace dataset. OS Customer Services have
explained that they can't distinguish what woodland is Forestry Commission
from aerial imagery nor can they determine what the access is from such
imagery. This seems ridiculous but that is their answer.

I suspect that producing the Green Space map was forced upon OS by
politicians, so they've just taken whatever existing datasets they
have, and looked for polygon features that map to "Green Space" and
exported them. (Hence the odd choice to include Golf Courses, which
are mostly private.) Around me, the OS Green Space coverage is
particularly poor with a lot of the public green space in my town
missing. Much of the missing land in the town is owned by the District
Council, but there are also bits that are CRoW Access Land and
registered commons, which I'd have thought OS should know about. And
then there's the whole of Thetford Forest missing!


I think it still has some value as it stands.

Definitively. I've already found a couple of play areas hidden in
housing estates that I didn't know existed, that I'll need to go a
survey.

The killer feature would be doing a comparison with the OSM data and
showing discrepancies -- though that's much easier said than done!


Any more feedback will always be welcome.

Would you consider adding the CRoW Access Land as an additional layer?
(You can get the data under the OGL from
http://environment.data.gov.uk/ds/catalogue/#/catalogue under the
heading "CRoW Act 2000 - Access Layer".

If you're interested in adding even more datasets, the National Trust
has OGL data of it's "always open" land at
http://uk-nationaltrust.opendata.arcgis.com/datasets/202ec400dfe9471aaf257e4b6c956394_0
, and the Forestry Commission make their Public Forest Estate
boundaries available under the OGL at
http://data-forestry.opendata.arcgis.com/datasets/national-forest-estate-legal-boundary-england-2016/
and/or 
http://data-forestry.opendata.arcgis.com/datasets/national-forest-estate-ownership-england-2016
(though there isn't public access to all of it). In both of these
datasets there will be overlap with the CRoW Access Land.

Robert,

Thanks for the ideas. As it was, it was put together quickly and wasn't 
very flexible. I have reorganised the way this works, though it looks 
about the same. This will make it a bit more responsive and easier to 
extend. I'll look at adding some more datasets. Every dataset is 
individual so needs to be handled in it's own way.


--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)


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