I'm forwarding an email I sent only to Andy by mistake yesterday. -- đ Miguel Sevilla-Callejo from my mobile đ± ---------- Mensaje reenviado ---------- De: "Andy Townsend" <ajt1...@gmail.com> Fecha: 13/8/2017 19:04 Asunto: Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales Para: <talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> Cc:
On 11/08/2017 17:19, Brian Prangle wrote: > > ... and goes to the first source of what is seen to be the authoritative > source - the wiki- to seek guidance, > > > Unfortunately, the wiki isn't always "the authoritative source". Articles > written there include both "descriptive" and "prescriptive" ones - saying > how mappers currently map things, and telling them how they _should_ map > things. When it comes to "how to map things" often there needs to be a > discussion, because no one person has the whole picture. Sometimes people > writing wiki articles take great care to represent the different views > where they exist and try and thread a consensus course through them (Harry > Wood please take a bow at this point); and sometimes they don't. > > For example, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalks says that "The > simplest method is to tag the associated highway with sidewalk > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sidewalk>=both/left/right/no > (none is sometimes used, but no is preferred > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sidewalk>)", despite > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk#values showing that > "none" is the more popular value. I tried to make the wiki reflect usage > but it was immediately changed back because "The statement never > described predominant usage, but preferred usage. That hasn't changed.". > Clearly someone thinks that _they_ know better than me and the majority of > sidewalk mappers in OSM. Rather than "insisting" it is correct as per > https://www.xkcd.com/386/ I decided that life was too short. I suspect > that something rather similar has happened with regard to language tagging > in Wales. > > and then asks, from etiquette, what the local community thinks, > > > To be fair, from reading the emails it doesn't read to me like that was > what was happening; it reads very much like he was telling everyone that > disagreed with him that they were wrong without offering any reasoning > beyond "the wiki says...". > > Unfortunately every multiple-language situation is complicated (and with a > DWG hat on I've been involved in quite a few). Some communities (Belgium > being a notable early example) have settled on a compound "name" that > doesn't reflect any language name on the ground but is intended to indicate > that both have equal value; some - possibly the majority, but not by much - > go with name as the "most used value" - so "EtelÀinen Rautatiekatu" rather > than the rather large mouthful "EtelÀinen Rautatiekatu / Södra > JÀrnvÀgsgatan"* for the street in Helsinki that I used to stay when working > there, despite all street signs being bilingual. Some have gone for > locally-relevant variations of both. However it's always the wishes of the > local mappers that should hold most sway (and, again from personal > experience with a DWG hat on, that can get difficult when one community is > under-represented in OSM). > > *Can this discussion specifically address what is wrong with the wiki > page on Welsh placenames > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales> and suggest > improvements?* > > > I'd start by asking some more Welsh mappers! So far we've had the person > who created the original cyosm map arguing against a compound name, along > with a number of (very) frequent visitors from England. Other than the > person who raised the issue we've not yet had much of a balancing > population on the other side of the argument; but not everyone follows > changeset discussion comments or this list. When the status of Western > Sahara was raised with the DWG I went through a fairly long process which > started at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=602864# > p602864 to ensure that everyone's views could be taken on board and to > make sure that no-one was missed - I made sure that ever mapper in the > region who'd recently mapped affected objects had a comment in a changeset > discussion (and if no reply a direct message) in what appeared to be their > usual language. Contacting _every_ mapper who's mapped in Wales is > unlikely to be feasible but contacting a subset of regular mappers (perhaps > based edit count > a certain value) and based on some sort of "edits in > Wales" criterion could be doable, but based on the Western Sahara survey > I'd expect that it'd be a sizable amount of effort; just putting up a "web > survey" form somewhere and hoping people come to it won't cut it. > > If after that sort of discussion there's still opposition to "compound > names" in Wales I'd suggest that an initial change to the wiki page would > be the removal of the section added by "MÀnnedorf" in 2014 > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Multilingual_names&type= > revision&diff=1121276&oldid=1116200 that introduced the idea in the first > place - but we need to make sure that people even know about the issue > first. > > I'm also hoping that this discussion might kickstart OMSUK's Welsh > language render project > > > Well good luck with that :) https://www.loomio.org/d/ > P15nYvqg/getting-the-uk-map-going- seems to be somewhat moribund; maybe a > specific language render get people to actually start doing something > rather than suggesting "things that it would be cool to do"? As I said in > the loomio thread, if anyone wants any specific help about e.g. "how to do > X with lua" (or even "what do I need to do to set up a server at Hetzner") > let me know. > > Best Regards, > > Andy (for the avoidance of doubt, writing in an entirely personal capacity) > > * South(ern) Railway Street > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > >
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