Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 8:28 PM OSM Volunteer stevea < stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote: > In Santa Cruz, there is about 50 meters of highway=trunk between Highway > 17 (freeway, motorway) and where 17 ends at signalized Ocean Street > (highway=primary). At first I was nonplussed about this being so tagged in > OSM, but as I remembered where the regulatory (therefore, by law) "End > Freeway" sign is (confirming it today), it actually is tagged correctly. > > Looks like there's a mistake on CA 1 west of CA 17 near there. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
Eric Ladner wrote > That may be more of a note to motorists that "hey.. this freeway is coming to > an end" rather than an absolute marker of "this freeway ends here at this > sign". San Diego's own GIS system has it marked as I-8 all the way up to > where it splits into motorway links at Nimitz/Sunset Cliffs. Having grown up there and surfed Ocean Beach and Pacific Beach many times, yes. > Arguing about where the motorway ends and a trunk/something else begins > before an at-grade intersection is just splitting hairs. IMO, it's a > motorway all the way up to the intersection. If you were standing with your > back to the intersection looking down the motorway, there'd be nothing > visible that would convince you it's not a motorway. According to Caltrans, the term "freeway" refers to a route that is restricted in access and does not have cross traffic. "End Freeway" simply means that a route that has been restricted in access and free of cross traffic for the last number of miles has come to an end, said Caltrans spokeswoman Reid. Although the route will often continue "well-maintained" and "free" for a while more, drivers should look for cross traffic and traffic lights just ahead, she said. This is from the Los Angeles Times' "Traffic Talk" column, August 30, 1996. And yes, I know for a fact (from having driven millions of miles of California Highway and recently passing my written license test again) that a "white sign with black text is a regulatory sign," meaning "by law, beginning where this sign is placed, forward." In Santa Cruz, there is about 50 meters of highway=trunk between Highway 17 (freeway, motorway) and where 17 ends at signalized Ocean Street (highway=primary). At first I was nonplussed about this being so tagged in OSM, but as I remembered where the regulatory (therefore, by law) "End Freeway" sign is (confirming it today), it actually is tagged correctly. So, Eric is correct on both counts: it is "hey, this freeway is coming to an end" AND it is "this freeway ends here at this sign." SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
That may be more of a note to motorists that "hey.. this freeway is coming to an end" rather than an absolute marker of "this freeway ends here at this sign". San Diego's own GIS system has it marked as I-8 all the way up to where it splits into motorway links at Nimitz/Sunset Cliffs. Arguing about where the motorway ends and a trunk/something else begins before an at-grade intersection is just splitting hairs. IMO, it's a motorway all the way up to the intersection. If you were standing with your back to the intersection looking down the motorway, there'd be nothing visible that would convince you it's not a motorway. On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 10:11 PM Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote: > In California some roads have signs that say “End Freeway”, about 1/2 mile > before the first intersection, eg I-8 in San Diego. > On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 1:04 PM Evin Fairchild > wrote: > >> Nobody is saying that we should tag as motorways a road with a surface >> intersection. I don't understand what it is that we're saying that's >> causing you to come to that conclusion. We are simply saying that the >> first surface intersection that a road comes across is where the motorway >> should change to trunk. >> >> -Evin >> >> On Nov 28, 2018 7:42 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: >> >> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 9:36 PM Nathan Mills wrote: >> >>> Unless there have been significant changes since I moved away, it should >>> be tagged motorway between the IDL and the light at Apache/Gilcrease >>> Extension. Before the Gilcrease was extended west of US-75, the Tisdale >>> should have been tagged entirely as motorway. Adding the intersection did >>> not change the character of the road south of the Gilcrease extension or >>> the rights of adjacent landowners, so I don't see any particular reason to >>> reclassify that segment. >>> >> >> Right, but where are we getting that motorways have surface intersections >> now? >> ___ >> Talk-us mailing list >> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> >> >> ___ >> Talk-us mailing list >> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > -- Eric Ladner ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
On Thu, Nov 29, 2018, 00:17 Albert Pundt or if the road becomes single-carriageway and isn't a super-2 (a > controlled-access freeway in which only one carriageway is constructed with > accommodation for the second later). > A controlled access single carriageway would also be a trunk, not a motorway. Basically motorways should only be things that meet current Interstate guidelines except maybe for hard shoulders. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
Even at the end, that's still an intersection, though. In the real world, there's a transition to be mafe from freeway to that less than freeway situation at the traffic light. On Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 23:02 Evin Fairchild What?! I haven't contradicted myself at all. I already said in my initial > response (the one that I sent to only you by mistake) that in cases where > there's an at grade intersection sandwiched in between two interchanges, > the road should be marked as trunk in between. Other than that case, a road > should be motorway all the way to the at-grade intersection, as is the case > with the Tisdale Parkway. > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 8:11 PM Paul Johnson wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 10:02 PM Evin Fairchild >> wrote: >> >>> Nobody is saying that we should tag as motorways a road with a surface >>> intersection. I don't understand what it is that we're saying that's >>> causing you to come to that conclusion. We are simply saying that the >>> first surface intersection that a road comes across is where the motorway >>> should change to trunk. >>> >> >> You've contradicted yourself in that statement. >> > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
I always tag based on the actual access control. At the end of a clear freeway, continue the motorway tagging to the first intersection or driveway, or if the road becomes single-carriageway and isn't a super-2 (a controlled-access freeway in which only one carriageway is constructed with accommodation for the second later). There is no "except for the intersections." If a road like that has enough intersections spaced throughout its length, it should be tagged as trunk, perhaps with expressway=yes. Though with just two or three intersections nearby in the middle of a freeway (for example the handful of remaining intersections in the mostly-freeway section of US 29 in Maryland), I'd tag it as trunk only between the intersections and make the rest motorway. The Tisdale Parkway should absolutely be tagged as motorway starting from the Gilcrease intersection southward. Gilcrease should be motorway as well from where it becomes dual-carriageway. The remaining sections of each of these roads should be tagged as trunk. On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 12:31 AM Nathan Mills wrote: > I think this is a good general rule. In the instant case, the tagging > should change at the point where the grass median ends northbound, IMO. > That marks a definite change in the physical character of the road. I > believe it was tagged like that when the carriageways were first split > after the TIGER import, but I might be misremembering. > > -Nathan > > > > On November 29, 2018 12:01:58 AM EST, Evin Fairchild > wrote: >> >> What?! I haven't contradicted myself at all. I already said in my initial >> response (the one that I sent to only you by mistake) that in cases where >> there's an at grade intersection sandwiched in between two interchanges, >> the road should be marked as trunk in between. Other than that case, a road >> should be motorway all the way to the at-grade intersection, as is the case >> with the Tisdale Parkway. >> >> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 8:11 PM Paul Johnson wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 10:02 PM Evin Fairchild >>> wrote: >>> Nobody is saying that we should tag as motorways a road with a surface intersection. I don't understand what it is that we're saying that's causing you to come to that conclusion. We are simply saying that the first surface intersection that a road comes across is where the motorway should change to trunk. >>> >>> You've contradicted yourself in that statement. >>> >> > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > -- —Albert Pundt ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
I think this is a good general rule. In the instant case, the tagging should change at the point where the grass median ends northbound, IMO. That marks a definite change in the physical character of the road. I believe it was tagged like that when the carriageways were first split after the TIGER import, but I might be misremembering. -Nathan On November 29, 2018 12:01:58 AM EST, Evin Fairchild wrote: >What?! I haven't contradicted myself at all. I already said in my >initial >response (the one that I sent to only you by mistake) that in cases >where >there's an at grade intersection sandwiched in between two >interchanges, >the road should be marked as trunk in between. Other than that case, a >road >should be motorway all the way to the at-grade intersection, as is the >case >with the Tisdale Parkway. > >On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 8:11 PM Paul Johnson >wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 10:02 PM Evin Fairchild >> wrote: >> >>> Nobody is saying that we should tag as motorways a road with a >surface >>> intersection. I don't understand what it is that we're saying that's >>> causing you to come to that conclusion. We are simply saying that >the >>> first surface intersection that a road comes across is where the >motorway >>> should change to trunk. >>> >> >> You've contradicted yourself in that statement. >> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
What?! I haven't contradicted myself at all. I already said in my initial response (the one that I sent to only you by mistake) that in cases where there's an at grade intersection sandwiched in between two interchanges, the road should be marked as trunk in between. Other than that case, a road should be motorway all the way to the at-grade intersection, as is the case with the Tisdale Parkway. On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 8:11 PM Paul Johnson wrote: > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 10:02 PM Evin Fairchild > wrote: > >> Nobody is saying that we should tag as motorways a road with a surface >> intersection. I don't understand what it is that we're saying that's >> causing you to come to that conclusion. We are simply saying that the >> first surface intersection that a road comes across is where the motorway >> should change to trunk. >> > > You've contradicted yourself in that statement. > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 10:02 PM Evin Fairchild wrote: > Nobody is saying that we should tag as motorways a road with a surface > intersection. I don't understand what it is that we're saying that's > causing you to come to that conclusion. We are simply saying that the > first surface intersection that a road comes across is where the motorway > should change to trunk. > You've contradicted yourself in that statement. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
On 11/28/2018 10:36 PM, Nathan Mills wrote: Adding the intersection did not change the character of the road south of the Gilcrease extension or the rights of adjacent landowners, so I don't see any particular reason to reclassify that segment. If we're looking for a generalized rule, consider that there may be many miles of motorway between the last exit and the next at-grade intersection, so it would make sense to keep that section as motorway. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
In California some roads have signs that say “End Freeway”, about 1/2 mile before the first intersection, eg I-8 in San Diego. On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 1:04 PM Evin Fairchild wrote: > Nobody is saying that we should tag as motorways a road with a surface > intersection. I don't understand what it is that we're saying that's > causing you to come to that conclusion. We are simply saying that the > first surface intersection that a road comes across is where the motorway > should change to trunk. > > -Evin > > On Nov 28, 2018 7:42 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 9:36 PM Nathan Mills wrote: > >> Unless there have been significant changes since I moved away, it should >> be tagged motorway between the IDL and the light at Apache/Gilcrease >> Extension. Before the Gilcrease was extended west of US-75, the Tisdale >> should have been tagged entirely as motorway. Adding the intersection did >> not change the character of the road south of the Gilcrease extension or >> the rights of adjacent landowners, so I don't see any particular reason to >> reclassify that segment. >> > > Right, but where are we getting that motorways have surface intersections > now? > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
Nobody is saying that we should tag as motorways a road with a surface intersection. I don't understand what it is that we're saying that's causing you to come to that conclusion. We are simply saying that the first surface intersection that a road comes across is where the motorway should change to trunk. -Evin On Nov 28, 2018 7:42 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 9:36 PM Nathan Mills wrote: > Unless there have been significant changes since I moved away, it should > be tagged motorway between the IDL and the light at Apache/Gilcrease > Extension. Before the Gilcrease was extended west of US-75, the Tisdale > should have been tagged entirely as motorway. Adding the intersection did > not change the character of the road south of the Gilcrease extension or > the rights of adjacent landowners, so I don't see any particular reason to > reclassify that segment. > Right, but where are we getting that motorways have surface intersections now? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 9:36 PM Nathan Mills wrote: > Unless there have been significant changes since I moved away, it should > be tagged motorway between the IDL and the light at Apache/Gilcrease > Extension. Before the Gilcrease was extended west of US-75, the Tisdale > should have been tagged entirely as motorway. Adding the intersection did > not change the character of the road south of the Gilcrease extension or > the rights of adjacent landowners, so I don't see any particular reason to > reclassify that segment. > Right, but where are we getting that motorways have surface intersections now? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
Unless there have been significant changes since I moved away, it should be tagged motorway between the IDL and the light at Apache/Gilcrease Extension. Before the Gilcrease was extended west of US-75, the Tisdale should have been tagged entirely as motorway. Adding the intersection did not change the character of the road south of the Gilcrease extension or the rights of adjacent landowners, so I don't see any particular reason to reclassify that segment. North of that, either trunk or primary would be equally reasonable. -Nathan On November 28, 2018 10:21:41 PM EST, Paul Johnson wrote: >On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 9:00 PM Evin Fairchild >wrote: > >> I think you're misrepresenting the discussion. People are simply >saying >> that the motorway destination should extend all the way to the first >at >> grade intersection, rather than the interchange prior to the at grade >> intersection. Personally, I agree with this. The only exception would >be if >> there's an at grade intersection sandwiched between two interchanges. >In >> that case there should be a stretch of trunk in between the two >> interchanges. >> > >Right, but motorways are grade-separated, fully controlled, dual >carriageways. Throw in an at grade intersection, that's no longer >grade >separated. That's not a freeway anymore, that's an expressway. >Expressways are semi-controlled and do have surface intersections, >though >some or even most may be grade separated. > > >> Further, I strongly disagree with the way the Tisdale was originally >> tagged, (the entire thing, even the obvious freeway sections were >> originally trunk) because if we followed Paul's logic everywhere, >most odd >> numbered 3 digit interstates would have to be tagged as trunk. >> > >Well, let's talk about that. There's quite a few out there that >probably >shouldn't be motorways, but instead motorway_link or trunk. I 90 west >of I >5 is mapped a motorway right now but it's just a spiderweb of ramps to >the >Seattle Bus Tunnel, 5th Avenue, Seattle Boulevard, 4th Avenue, and >Martinez. Rationale for going from the US 412 interchange being that's >the >last (only, really) major junction along Tisdale with an unambiguous >motorway. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 9:00 PM Evin Fairchild wrote: > I think you're misrepresenting the discussion. People are simply saying > that the motorway destination should extend all the way to the first at > grade intersection, rather than the interchange prior to the at grade > intersection. Personally, I agree with this. The only exception would be if > there's an at grade intersection sandwiched between two interchanges. In > that case there should be a stretch of trunk in between the two > interchanges. > Right, but motorways are grade-separated, fully controlled, dual carriageways. Throw in an at grade intersection, that's no longer grade separated. That's not a freeway anymore, that's an expressway. Expressways are semi-controlled and do have surface intersections, though some or even most may be grade separated. > Further, I strongly disagree with the way the Tisdale was originally > tagged, (the entire thing, even the obvious freeway sections were > originally trunk) because if we followed Paul's logic everywhere, most odd > numbered 3 digit interstates would have to be tagged as trunk. > Well, let's talk about that. There's quite a few out there that probably shouldn't be motorways, but instead motorway_link or trunk. I 90 west of I 5 is mapped a motorway right now but it's just a spiderweb of ramps to the Seattle Bus Tunnel, 5th Avenue, Seattle Boulevard, 4th Avenue, and Martinez. Rationale for going from the US 412 interchange being that's the last (only, really) major junction along Tisdale with an unambiguous motorway. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Fwd: Trunk versus motorway
-- Forwarded message - From: Evin Fairchild Date: Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Trunk versus motorway To: Paul Johnson I think you're misrepresenting the discussion. People are simply saying that the motorway destination should extend all the way to the first at grade intersection, rather than the interchange prior to the at grade intersection. Personally, I agree with this. The only exception would be if there's an at grade intersection sandwiched between two interchanges. In that case there should be a stretch of trunk in between the two interchanges. Further, I strongly disagree with the way the Tisdale was originally tagged, (the entire thing, even the obvious freeway sections were originally trunk) because if we followed Paul's logic everywhere, most odd numbered 3 digit interstates would have to be tagged as trunk. Frankly, I've wanted to change this road from trunk to motorway in the past, but I've avoided doing so because this is Paul's home turf and I felt I'd just be shaking a hornet's nest. -Evin (compdude) On Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 6:19 PM Paul Johnson Can I get some voice of reason in > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/64919426? There seems to be > quite a few people (and one AARoads forum troll egging it on) that are > trying to propel the idea that motorways have at-grade intersections, which > is obviously incorrect. > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
