Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Simon Poole]

It supports at least down to level 11, simply click on the entries and
it will display sub-boundaries and so on.

Not that there isn't room for further parallel services, but this wasn't
actually a vacuum :-). In particular anything helping improving
boundaries in the US is a good thing.

Simon

Am 11.06.2015 um 17:20 schrieb Randy Meech:
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Simon Poole  > wrote:
> 
> I just want to point out that there is an existing and well established
> OSM-based service that already supplies worldwide boundaries in a number
> of formats https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/boundaries/ .
> 
> 
> Yes -- unless I'm mistaken, this only supports admin_level=2, meaning
> country borders?
> 
> This new project exposes all the other admin levels as well, in order to
> display cities, neighborhoods, etc. We saw demand for this in feedback
> on Metro Extracts and elsewhere.
> 
> -Randy 



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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Randy Meech]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:

> I just want to point out that there is an existing and well established
> OSM-based service that already supplies worldwide boundaries in a number
> of formats https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/boundaries/ .


Yes -- unless I'm mistaken, this only supports admin_level=2, meaning
country borders?

This new project exposes all the other admin levels as well, in order to
display cities, neighborhoods, etc. We saw demand for this in feedback on
Metro Extracts and elsewhere.

-Randy
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Simon Poole]

Randy,

I just want to point out that there is an existing and well established
OSM-based service that already supplies worldwide boundaries in a number
of formats https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/boundaries/ .

Further the operator runs daily quality checks on changes in the boundaries.

Simon


Am 11.06.2015 um 14:54 schrieb Randy Meech:
> On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Randy Meech  > wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Clifford Snow
> mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us>> wrote:
> 
> 
> Seattle has very defined neighborhoods and even
> sub-neighborhoods. The prior discussions kept us from adding the
> boundaries. Maybe it is time to reconsider. The Mapzen effort to
> produce a boundaries overlay is a promising solution to the
> problem, but I haven't heard anything from Mapzen for a while.
> 
> 
> We've changed course to publish existing OSM boundaries in different
> formats, similar to the metro extracts [2], although this is not
> live yet. The theory is that if we make the data more accessible to
> people for visualization, they'll improve it.
> 
> 
> Just an update on this, last weekend we launched "Borders," which is
> similar to Metro Extracts, but just publishes GeoJSON files of all the
> admin levels for every country from OSM.
> 
> We hope that making this data more visible & accessible will lead to its
> improvement.
> 
> Data: https://mapzen.com/data/borders/
> Blog: https://mapzen.com/blog/total-perspective-vortex
> Code:
> - https://github.com/pelias/fences-slicer
> - https://github.com/pelias/fences-cli
> - https://github.com/pelias/fences-builder
> 
> Additionally, Nathaniel Kelso of Natural Earth and Quattroshapes will be
> starting at Mapzen on Monday (yay). Among many other things, we want to
> focus on this area both within OSM and in other data projects. If anyone
> is interested in helping, drop us a line.
> 
> -Randy
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Randy Meech]

On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Randy Meech  wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Seattle has very defined neighborhoods and even sub-neighborhoods. The
>> prior discussions kept us from adding the boundaries. Maybe it is time to
>> reconsider. The Mapzen effort to produce a boundaries overlay is a
>> promising solution to the problem, but I haven't heard anything from Mapzen
>> for a while.
>>
>
> We've changed course to publish existing OSM boundaries in different
> formats, similar to the metro extracts [2], although this is not live yet.
> The theory is that if we make the data more accessible to people for
> visualization, they'll improve it.
>

Just an update on this, last weekend we launched "Borders," which is
similar to Metro Extracts, but just publishes GeoJSON files of all the
admin levels for every country from OSM.

We hope that making this data more visible & accessible will lead to its
improvement.

Data: https://mapzen.com/data/borders/
Blog: https://mapzen.com/blog/total-perspective-vortex
Code:
- https://github.com/pelias/fences-slicer
- https://github.com/pelias/fences-cli
- https://github.com/pelias/fences-builder

Additionally, Nathaniel Kelso of Natural Earth and Quattroshapes will be
starting at Mapzen on Monday (yay). Among many other things, we want to
focus on this area both within OSM and in other data projects. If anyone is
interested in helping, drop us a line.

-Randy
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Clifford Snow]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Alex Barth  wrote:

> Note we're only talking about `place=hamlet` in urban areas. I wasn't 100
> % clear whether your post referred to `place=hamlet` nodes in urban areas
> or in general.


Sorry - I missed the Urban part. The 55 are definitely not urban. However,
my concerns about neighborhood boundaries are all in urban areas.


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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Alex Barth]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> I apologize for coming in so late on this thread. Looking at my small
> county, we have 55 place=hamlet according to an overpass query.


Note we're only talking about `place=hamlet` in urban areas. I wasn't 100 %
clear whether your post referred to `place=hamlet` nodes in urban areas or
in general.
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 4:41 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2015-03-22 4:00 GMT+01:00 Clifford Snow :
>
>> At its most basic, OSM is a geospatial database. We have countries,
>> states, counties, and cities. Why not neighborhoods. OSM tells where a
>> feature is located. Points can only tell us how close a feature is to a
>> node. Using nodes to represent neighborhoods doesn't allow with any
>> certainty where a feature is located while a polygon can.
>
>
Points are too general.
Polygons are too specific.

Jeeze.  One could invent something in between: an approximate radius point
or a fuzzy polygon.



Please don't assume because your particular neighborhood has (insert one:
fuzzy boundaries, exact legal boundaries,
well understood boundaries, an edit war about the boundary, a name used
only for a railroad outhouse building in 1850)
that there is only One True Solution.
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-03-22 4:00 GMT+01:00 Clifford Snow :

> At its most basic, OSM is a geospatial database. We have countries,
> states, counties, and cities. Why not neighborhoods. OSM tells where a
> feature is located. Points can only tell us how close a feature is to a
> node. Using nodes to represent neighborhoods doesn't allow with any
> certainty where a feature is located while a polygon can.



+1

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[stevea]

In Santa Cruz county (California), each place=* tag has been 
carefully compared to local knowledge and a wonderful reference 
(book) I have called "Santa Cruz County Place Names: A Geographical 
Dictionary" by author Donald Thomas Clark, published by the Santa 
Cruz Historical Trust.  At over 500 pages, it is a wonderful 
reference, and is rather clear on whether something is completely 
historical or accurate "currently" (the book is a bit dated, being 
published in 1986, but I have the 2nd edition from 2008).  The author 
was the first librarian at UC Santa Cruz and wrote a similar tome for 
Monterey County (also excellent).


Maybe you have or maybe you don't have such a similar (excellent) 
resource for your community.  I wish everybody did.  But you either 
DO have or CAN GET local knowledge (everywhere on Earth FOR 
everywhere on Earth) that can yield reliable, human sourced data for 
OSM to use.


And maybe these data are or maybe these data are not "on the ground 
verifiable," in which case I leave it up to you whether they should 
or should not be in OSM.  If a lonely crossroads gas station with a 
friendly owner says "Yep, it's called Orchard Crossroads around 
here..." that's good enough for me to put a hamlet into OSM -- I 
don't need a sign to tell me, the man who knows it to be true just 
did.


Retagging hamlets isn't something that can or should be mechanized by 
a bot.  It is going to take real effort, meaning local knowledge 
crafted by human beings.  Hm, this sounds like a good basis upon 
which to recruit more volunteers for our project


SteveA
California

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[stevea]

Clifford and Serge write:

 > Seattle has very defined neighborhoods and even sub-neighborhoods.

As you imply, Seattle may be an exception (more detailed explanation below).


Serge, this isn't an implication, it is stated and actual fact.


 > ...But if we have access to
 > administrative boundaries, I believe they should be in OSM. (At least until
 > we have a viable alternative.)  Why not neighborhoods?

There are some good reasons to not consider this.

First, there are a growing number of people who believe that
administrative data is very useful, but breaks OSM's "ground
observable" rule. That is, someone who is present on the ground should
be able to observe the data in OSM. It's usually not possible to do
that with administrative boundaries.


And other times, Serge, it is 100% possible.  Signs which read 
"Welcome to Hillcrest" and "Allied Gardens, a community of San Diego, 
City In Motion" are real and fairly delineate where a "community" 
(neighborhood, quarter, district, suburb, area-within-city-limits...) 
begins and ends.  Seattleites agree that you "enter" Ballard when you 
cross the bridge, or that you are "in" Magnolia as you drive over 
Balmer rail yard via the Magnolia Bridge or West Dravus.  OSM can map 
these, OSM SHOULD map these, OSM DOES map these.  San Diego (and 
elsewhere) has signs -- therefore this is "ground truth-able."  In 
Seattle (and other places) maybe there are or aren't signs, but when 
you ask locals, and 100% who are knowledgeable to answer say "Yup, 
once past Salmon Bay on the Ballard Bridge, you are 'in' Ballard" 
then OSM needs to say so, too.



Of course adminstrative boundaries are things people care about, but
there's a growing number of people who believe that this data would be
best served from some other dataset and then used in conjunction with
OSM data during output (ie rendering, geocoding, etc.) rather than be
integrated into OSM itself.


"Growing?"  Are you keeping track, Serge?  May we see your data, please?


The second reason to consider not entering neighborhood data into OSM
is that many towns and cities do not have hard and fast rules
regarding neighborhoods. Neighborhoods are subjective.


Neighborhoods CAN be subjective, but other times they are as solid as 
a city limit sign.  OSM should reflect that, especially when true.



Not only are
they subjective but neighborhoods have strong associations with issues
of personal identity, such as ethnicity (and) socio-economic status.
In other words, a conflict between two people in regards to a
neighborhood can have larger implications.


Heck, this is true between Israel and Palestinians, as well as every 
border dispute on Earth.  OSM copes.  Sure, maybe the DWG gets 
involved (I remember Chechnya...) and it is some effort to untangle 
the politics.  But we owe this effort (our best effort) to our map 
consumers.  We DON'T owe them "let's throw up our hands because there 
is no line drawn on the ground."  Too many people who consume our 
(and every other) map believe boundaries to be such an integral part 
of "map" that the concept of boundaries to delineate the names and 
features of "place" will never go away.  Hey, I know that astronauts 
looking at Earth don't see boundaries.  But they aren't making a map. 
We are.



Imagine if Bob and Alice conflict on where a neighborhood boundary is
inside OSM. The issue escalates to an edit war and the DWG is called
in to resolve the conflict. Let's say that Frank is our DWG member.
How is Frank supposed to resolve the conflict between Alice and Bob?


Is there a sign?  Done.  Are there "public published" (e.g. city 
government) geo data?  Well, "less done," but still done.  The latter 
might not be "on the ground verifiable" but such data DO represent 
"the will of the People."  I believe OSM can take that as "not 
nothing" even if it is not zealously "on the ground verifiable."  How 
do we justify every other boundary in OSM?  We can't see THOSE, 
Serge, can we?



Often...administrative recognition is not in alignment with the people.


This is a contradiction; see above.


I imagine this would be especially an issue with neighborhoods where
lots of the under-represented populations live.


I don't, so I suppose we can agree to disagree.


I suspect you can see where this could all be problematic... That's
why I'm not in favor of this data being inside OSM. I think it'd be
better for a different dataset that OSM tools can then consume.


I don't, so I suppose we can agree to disagree.

Tenets of our map like "on the ground verifiable" are important, but 
only to the extent they are widely and consistently respected. 
Boundaries, in our map since Day 1 and never-to-be-eradicated (I'm 
just being realistic) totally violate that spirit, so this argument 
rings hollow to me.  Just because our data police find their work 
difficult doesn't mean they get a pass on rolling up their sleeves 
and doing it:  they knew the work was work when they signed up.  Th

Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:
>
> Looking at King County, especially Seattle, it appears that a number of
> the place=hamlet are actually neighborhoods. We have been reluctant to add
> neighborhood borders because of prior discussions on the mailing list
> which, in essence, believe that neighborhoods don't have defined borders.
> While I believe Seattle and others do have defined borders, I really don't
> want to fight this all over.
>

I believe the wiki mentions a method for defining boundaries of
neighborhoods, which if they're actually boundaries that exist, then
there's not much reason not to add them.
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Randy Meech]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

>
> Seattle has very defined neighborhoods and even sub-neighborhoods. The
> prior discussions kept us from adding the boundaries. Maybe it is time to
> reconsider. The Mapzen effort to produce a boundaries overlay is a
> promising solution to the problem, but I haven't heard anything from Mapzen
> for a while.
>

We had been working on such a project, but have shelved it for now. It
started as an instance of the OSM API that would hold TIGER boundary data,
and later became a Github org with admin boundaries stored as simplified
GeoJSON [1]. The idea was that we'd have a repo for each authoritative
source of open boundary data, and then community editable repos for less
authoritative boundaries like neighborhoods. Github and GeoJSON seemed to
be a good model for this that people understood.

We've changed course to publish existing OSM boundaries in different
formats, similar to the metro extracts [2], although this is not live yet.
The theory is that if we make the data more accessible to people for
visualization, they'll improve it.

We'd be open to working on boundaries again, but it would be better to do
it as a bigger group.

[1] https://github.com/boundaryissues
[2] https://mapzen.com/metro-extracts
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:

> Seattle has very defined neighborhoods and even sub-neighborhoods.

As you imply, Seattle may be an exception (more detailed explanation below).

> Boundaries are often hard to identify, even between cities let alone
> neighborhoods, yet they are import for many uses. Right now I'm in a city
> that I can't tell where it begins and the next city to the north ends. There
> doesn't seem to be a clear demarcation. But if we have access to
> administrative boundaries, I believe they should be in OSM. (At least until
> we have a viable alternative.)

> At its most basic, OSM is a geospatial database. We have countries, states,
> counties, and cities. Why not neighborhoods.

There are some good reasons to not consider this.

First, there are a growing number of people who believe that
administrative data is very useful, but breaks OSM's "ground
observable" rule. That is, someone who is present on the ground should
be able to observe the data in OSM. It's usually not possible to do
that with administrative boundaries.

Of course adminstrative boundaries are things people care about, but
there's a growing number of people who believe that this data would be
best served from some other dataset and then used in conjunction with
OSM data during output (ie rendering, geocoding, etc.) rather than be
integrated into OSM itself.

The second reason to consider not entering neighborhood data into OSM
is that many towns and cities do not have hard and fast rules
regarding neighborhoods. Neighborhoods are subjective. Not only are
they subjective but neighborhoods have strong associations with issues
of personal identity, such as ethnicity socio-economic status.

In other words, a conflict between two people in regards to a
neighborhood can have larger implications.

Imagine if Bob and Alice conflict on where a neighborhood boundary is
inside OSM. The issue escalates to an edit war and the DWG is called
in to resolve the conflict. Let's say that Frank is our DWG member.
How is Frank supposed to resolve the conflict between Alice and Bob?
Often neighborhoods don't have administrative recognition, or
administrative recognition is not in alignment with the people. I
imagine this would be especially an issue with neighborhoods where
lots of the under-represented populations live.

I suspect you can see where this could all be problematic... That's
why I'm not in favor of this data being inside OSM. I think it'd be
better for a different dataset that OSM tools can then consume.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Minh Nguyen 
wrote:

> How does this compare to Seattle? Do its neighborhoods have a similar
> level of organization? The GNIS place=hamlet POIs in Cincinnati mostly fell
> into the latter bucket, but we turned some into place=suburb and a few
> turned out to be historical.


Seattle has very defined neighborhoods and even sub-neighborhoods. The
prior discussions kept us from adding the boundaries. Maybe it is time to
reconsider. The Mapzen effort to produce a boundaries overlay is a
promising solution to the problem, but I haven't heard anything from Mapzen
for a while.

Boundaries are often hard to identify, even between cities let alone
neighborhoods, yet they are import for many uses. Right now I'm in a city
that I can't tell where it begins and the next city to the north ends.
There doesn't seem to be a clear demarcation. But if we have access to
administrative boundaries, I believe they should be in OSM. (At least until
we have a viable alternative.)

At its most basic, OSM is a geospatial database. We have countries, states,
counties, and cities. Why not neighborhoods. OSM tells where a feature is
located. Points can only tell us how close a feature is to a node. Using
nodes to represent neighborhoods doesn't allow with any certainty where a
feature is located while a polygon can.

We are a slightly off topic, but place=hamlet has the same issue. The
problem is that not all place=hamlet have defined borders. For example,
"Edison Station" is a hamlet that is known by some locals, but there is no
defined boundary. At best it has very small radius, yet as a node, it might
cast a wider territory.

Clifford


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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Minh Nguyen]

On 2015-03-19 15:12, Clifford Snow wrote:

Looking at King County, especially Seattle, it appears that a number of
the place=hamlet are actually neighborhoods. We have been reluctant to
add neighborhood borders because of prior discussions on the mailing
list which, in essence, believe that neighborhoods don't have defined
borders. While I believe Seattle and others do have defined borders, I
really don't want to fight this all over.


If I remember correctly, the controversy was about whether municipal 
boundaries belong in OSM, not whether they ever exist. The argument was 
that concrete boundaries are products of government agencies and not 
readily improved by OSM's volunteer mappers, which I disagreed with. [1] 
But certainly many large cities have internal administrative boundaries.


For example, Cincinnati is divided into 52 "neighborhoods" -- not mere 
business districts or voting wards. [2] Their boundaries are defined 
precisely along major streets. The city marks many of these boundaries 
with welcome signs or other decorative elements. Residents know which 
neighborhood they live in. They have community councils and websites. [3][4]


Given these facts, those of us mapping Cincinnati have been quite happy 
to map admin_level=10 boundaries where we happen to know them. For the 
other neighborhoods, a simple place=suburb POI will suffice until 
someone comes along with more info.


Many of Cincinnati's neighborhoods also contain smaller, less formal 
areas like business districts and residential developments. We've been 
mapping them with a mixture of landuse polygons and place=neighbourhood 
POIs.


How does this compare to Seattle? Do its neighborhoods have a similar 
level of organization? The GNIS place=hamlet POIs in Cincinnati mostly 
fell into the latter bucket, but we turned some into place=suburb and a 
few turned out to be historical.


[1] 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2013-January/010162.html

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cincinnati_neighborhoods
[3] 
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/community-development/references-resources/community-council-directory/

[4] There have even been boundary disputes between community councils.


My suggestion is to encourage people to clean up place=hamlet from local
knowledge. I fully concur with Richard Weait that we need to attract
more mappers.


When it comes to place=hamlet POIs outside major urban areas, I suspect 
that we're looking for *hyper*local knowledge. I can verify the 
existence of Cincinnati neighborhoods that I've never visited, because 
they come up plenty on the local news. But I have no clue one way or 
another about some suburban place=hamlet POIs just a few miles from 
where I lived.


--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us


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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Bryan Housel]

OK, I’ll revert the changeset if if bothers you that much..



> On Mar 20, 2015, at 12:23 AM, Greg Morgan  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Bryan Housel  > wrote:
> I wouldn’t.  The USPS doesn’t recognize it, so mail can not be delivered 
> there.  There are no signs either.
> 
> The USPS is not an always a good choice.
>  
> I did some googling to see if it is a historical name, but all the results 
> are spam (“Best plumber in Benders Corner, NJ!”)
> Nobody around here knows what it is.
> 
> I’m just going to remove it and close out the note.
> 
> Yet another reason I cannot eat my own dog food.  Here's the case where 
> finding the right polygon for a POI would be a useful or just leave it alone. 
>  I have to ask how hard did you really search for Bender's Corner?  OSM is 
> not a respresentation of a legal subdivisions, acessor parcel numbers and the 
> like.  However, having a way for a person to search for Bender's Corner; use 
> OSM to find it on the map; and perhaps route to the area would be a useful 
> feature!   Now OSM is the only map where you cannot locate Bender's Corner.  
> It looks like it might be a nice area.
> 
> http://berkeley-heights-real-estate.com/home-sales-berkeley-heights-nj-new-jersey/
>  
> 
> "110 Diamond Hill Rd   Benders Corner  $299,000$295,00063 
>  01/02/2013"
> 
> http://www.tripmondo.com/united-states/new-jersey/benders-corner/attractions-in-benders-corner/
>  
> 
> http://www.city-data.com/nbmaps/neigh-Berkeley-Heights-New-Jersey.html 
> 
> http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/benders-corner-nj/07974/weather-forecast/2174854
>  
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.weichert.com/search/realestate/SearchResults.aspx?hood=16925&view=map
>  
> 
> Copyright © 2015 Garden State Multiple Lis ting Service, L.L.C. All rights 
> reserved.
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  > > wrote:
> >
> > Would you put "bender's corner" on a map today?
> 
> 
> Yes!  Bender's Corner is worth a name search to someone.
>  
> 
> 
> >
> > If the barrier to cleaning is too great, not enough cleaning will happen.
> >
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> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:23 PM, Greg Morgan  wrote:

> Now OSM is the only map where you cannot locate Bender's Corner.  It looks
> like it might be a nice area.
>
> http://berkeley-heights-real-estate.com/home-sales-berkeley-heights-nj-new-jersey/
> "110 Diamond Hill Rd Benders Corner $299,000 $295,000 63 01/02/2013"
>
>
> http://www.tripmondo.com/united-states/new-jersey/benders-corner/attractions-in-benders-corner/
> http://www.city-data.com/nbmaps/neigh-Berkeley-Heights-New-Jersey.html
>
> http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/benders-corner-nj/07974/weather-forecast/2174854
>
> http://www.weichert.com/search/realestate/SearchResults.aspx?hood=16925&view=map
>

Yeah, but ALL of those are sploggy results, created to attract search
engines, using the same original dataset.
It's all mindless spam created from GNIS data.  Had the GNIS accepted
"Happy Puppy Land", that would appear
the same way.

 > Yes!  Bender's Corner is worth a name search to someone.

I don't think a human would have cared enough to add Bender's Corner.  It's
only the GNIS import that brought it to OSM.
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Greg Morgan]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> I wouldn’t.  The USPS doesn’t recognize it, so mail can not be delivered
> there.  There are no signs either.
>

The USPS is not an always a good choice.


> I did some googling to see if it is a historical name, but all the results
> are spam (“Best plumber in Benders Corner, NJ!”)
> Nobody around here knows what it is.
>
> I’m just going to remove it and close out the note.
>

Yet another reason I cannot eat my own dog food.  Here's the case where
finding the right polygon for a POI would be a useful or just leave it
alone.  I have to ask how hard did you really search for Bender's Corner?
OSM is not a respresentation of a legal subdivisions, acessor parcel
numbers and the like.  However, having a way for a person to search for
Bender's Corner; use OSM to find it on the map; and perhaps route to the
area would be a useful feature!   Now OSM is the only map where you cannot
locate Bender's Corner.  It looks like it might be a nice area.

http://berkeley-heights-real-estate.com/home-sales-berkeley-heights-nj-new-jersey/
"110 Diamond Hill Rd Benders Corner $299,000 $295,000 63 01/02/2013"

http://www.tripmondo.com/united-states/new-jersey/benders-corner/attractions-in-benders-corner/
http://www.city-data.com/nbmaps/neigh-Berkeley-Heights-New-Jersey.html
http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/benders-corner-nj/07974/weather-forecast/2174854


http://www.weichert.com/search/realestate/SearchResults.aspx?hood=16925&view=map
Copyright © 2015 Garden State Multiple Lis ting Service, L.L.C. All rights
reserved.


>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:
> >
> > Would you put "bender's corner" on a map today?
>


Yes!  Bender's Corner is worth a name search to someone.



>
> > If the barrier to cleaning is too great, not enough cleaning will happen.
> >
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Eric Christensen]

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 04:12:45 PM Clifford Snow wrote:
> I apologize for coming in so late on this thread. Looking at my small
> county, we have 55 place=hamlet according to an overpass query. (2007 for
> Washington State) I certainly recognize a number of these "hamlets." I
> would hate to see them removed. I would like to see if any need to be
> updated to cities, for example Bow and Edison.

I wonder if it might be better to add a FIXME to all hamlets asking that 
someone confirm the hamlet status.  Once they have been verified the FIXME can 
be removed and, hopefully, mappers won't have to re-verify it.

--Eric

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Clifford Snow]

I apologize for coming in so late on this thread. Looking at my small
county, we have 55 place=hamlet according to an overpass query. (2007 for
Washington State) I certainly recognize a number of these "hamlets." I
would hate to see them removed. I would like to see if any need to be
updated to cities, for example Bow and Edison.

I know for certain that Edison Station is used by locals to describe an
intersection with some shops and restaurants. I doubt that more than a
couple of dozen people live here. Maybe the problem is how we tag these
areas. Instead of place=hamlet, maybe it should be
place=known_to_locals_as.

Looking at King County, especially Seattle, it appears that a number of the
place=hamlet are actually neighborhoods. We have been reluctant to add
neighborhood borders because of prior discussions on the mailing list
which, in essence, believe that neighborhoods don't have defined borders.
While I believe Seattle and others do have defined borders, I really don't
want to fight this all over.

My suggestion is to encourage people to clean up place=hamlet from local
knowledge. I fully concur with Richard Weait that we need to attract more
mappers.

Clifford


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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Bryan Housel]

I wouldn’t.  The USPS doesn’t recognize it, so mail can not be delivered there. 
 There are no signs either.
I did some googling to see if it is a historical name, but all the results are 
spam (“Best plumber in Benders Corner, NJ!”)
Nobody around here knows what it is.

I’m just going to remove it and close out the note.




> On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:
> 
> Would you put "bender's corner" on a map today?
> 
> If the barrier to cleaning is too great, not enough cleaning will happen.
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Paul Norman]

On 3/18/2015 4:20 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
Levittown, New York, for instance is a hamlet with a population of 
over fifty thousand. 
This is not a hamlet. Typically a hamlet would have less than 100-200 
people. What you've described is a town or a city, this is regardless of 
if it has incorporated. It does not matter if it is defined as a hamlet 
in New York law.


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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Kevin Kenny]

On 03/17/2015 05:25 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Alex Barth > wrote:


What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in
US urban areas?

My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban
areas in the US:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541

I just posted how we could fix this:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931


I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to 
be retagged as place=neighbourhood




Careful with this!

In New York, hamlets are very often quite well-defined entities. They 
have road signs at their borders, the people who live in them 
self-identify as residents of the hamlet, they frequently have post 
offices named for them, and so on. What they lack is a distinct local 
government. Instead, their government is that of the township that 
contains them.


I would be quite annoyed if the hamlet that was my home town when I was 
growing up (Inwood, New York) were to be tagged as a "neighbourhood" of 
"Hempstead".  "Town of Hempstead," in the present day, has very little 
land in Hempstead - limited to a smallish tract surrounding the town 
hall. The rest of Hempstead is "Village of Hempstead" - whose residents 
self-identify as living in Hempstead. The residents of the 
unincorporated areas of the township do NOT identify as living in Hempstead.


Some of these "hamlets" are in fact medium-sized cities that never 
troubled to incorporate. Levittown, New York, for instance is a hamlet 
with a population of over fifty thousand.


And - local mappers have already done considerable tidying with respect 
to New York hamlets. This sort of mechanical edit means that the local 
mappers would have to go back and retag the hamlets yet again.


--
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin


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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Would you put "bender's corner" on a map today?

If the barrier to cleaning is too great, not enough cleaning will happen.

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Richard Welty]

On 3/18/15 2:51 PM, Charlotte Wolter wrote:
> Everyone,
>
> Aren't some of these "hamlets" still used as postal addresses?
> In that sense, they still exist.
> Also, in the West we have the phenomenon of old rail
> infrastructure, such as watering stations, that were named. A good
> example is Adamana near the Petrified Forest. There are still a couple
> of houses there. Would will still consider those "hamlets"?
>
those are pretty much exactly one of the things that makes a hamlet.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Charlotte Wolter]

Everyone,

Aren't some of these "hamlets" still 
used as postal addresses? In that sense, they still exist.
Also, in the West we have the phenomenon 
of old rail infrastructure, such as watering 
stations, that were named. A good example is 
Adamana near the Petrified Forest. There are 
still a couple of houses there. Would will still consider those "hamlets"?


Charlotte


At 11:07 AM 3/18/2015, you wrote:

On 3/18/15 1:29 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 5:08 AM, Martin 
Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:


or maybe keep it as a historical place name, 
something like place=locality and 
old_name="Bender's Corner"? I agree that this 
is something local mappers with local knowledge should decide upon


I'm inclined to delete or move it to OpenHistoricalMap.Â

i'd like to see more of us thinking in terms of moving things to OHM, but...

1) make sure they really existed at some point in time

2) when possible, come up with at least years to 
use in start_date and end_date

tags.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Richard Welty]

On 3/18/15 1:29 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 5:08 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> or maybe keep it as a historical place name, something like
> place=locality and old_name="Bender's Corner"? I agree that this
> is something local mappers with local knowledge should decide upon
>
> I'm inclined to delete or move it to OpenHistoricalMap. 
i'd like to see more of us thinking in terms of moving things to OHM, but...

1) make sure they really existed at some point in time

2) when possible, come up with at least years to use in start_date and
end_date
tags.

richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 5:08 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2015-03-18 3:48 GMT+01:00 Bryan Housel :
>
>> (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted
>> outright.  I live near it and there really is no such thing.)
>
>
>
> or maybe keep it as a historical place name, something like place=locality
> and old_name="Bender's Corner"? I agree that this is something local
> mappers with local knowledge should decide upon.
>

I'm inclined to delete or move it to OpenHistoricalMap.  Nonextant places
are annoying at best, dangerous at worst.  Insert anecdote about my father
who likes to take a motorcycle and his wife well into the Mojave, Sonoran
or Cimarron Desert and find random spots on the map hoping to find ghost
towns.  Usually he finds out how broken whatever map it is he's using is.
Granted, dad's smart about it and travels with a lot of gear in case they
gotta tough it out, but he legitimately worries about people who go out
there following a GPS blindly.  I'm trying to get him involved in the
project, if even only by Walking Papers or georeferenced photos and a GPS
tracker, though so far aerial imagery and "Dude, I gotta tell you where I
went on my last trip..." phone calls have been major help in the desert
southwest.
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-03-18 3:48 GMT+01:00 Bryan Housel :

> (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted
> outright.  I live near it and there really is no such thing.)



or maybe keep it as a historical place name, something like place=locality
and old_name="Bender's Corner"? I agree that this is something local
mappers with local knowledge should decide upon.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Greg Morgan]

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:

> My initial reaction to any automated edit is to break out in a rash.
>

I don't have the same reaction.  A long time ago I added building=entrance
to buildings.  That tag was deprecated in favor of entrance=* at some
point.  A mapper comes along and changes building=entrance to entrance=main
with a script.  I was about to send the mapper a thank you because he saved
me a bunch of time, when his work was backed out.  So there I am left
making the same changes manually that the script had already made.  My
manual edits added no additional value to what the script had already
accomplished other than wasting my time.  I could have worked on other more
important issues.


>
> 3) New mapper fixes the BadHamlet and starts mapping their favourite
> restaurants, bowling alleys and coffee shops.
>

This is a great idea but I believe that you have the experience backwards.
I can only speak for myself but as a new mapper but I had no interesting in
fixing things.  I mapped features of interest or where I found the most
rewards.  I didn't start "fixing" issues until I had a great deal of
experience.  In addition, I think some of these hamlets might require more
research than a new mapper would be willing to stomach.  I believe that you
might just run the new mapper off.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Tod Fitch]

On Mar 17, 2015, at 8:06 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bryan Housel  wrote:
> Brand new anonymous users come to the map every day and are confused by what 
> these hamlets are. 
> proof: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246
> I kind of doubt this person is going to stick around and improve the map.  To 
> them, it just looks like vandalism.
> (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted outright.  
> I live near it and there really is no such thing.)
> 
> Illustrating: it's easy to add junk to OSM, it takes a lot of courage to 
> remove junk.

+1 on that.

When I come across things I think are wrong but not absolutely sure of it, I 
just leave it. I suspect that reaction is pretty common.

Tod

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> Brand new anonymous users come to the map every day and are confused by
> what these hamlets are.
> proof: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246
> I kind of doubt this person is going to stick around and improve the map.
> To them, it just looks like vandalism.
> (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted
> outright.  I live near it and there really is no such thing.)
>

Illustrating: it's easy to add junk to OSM, it takes a lot of courage to
remove junk.
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Bryan Housel]

Brand new anonymous users come to the map every day and are confused by what 
these hamlets are. 

proof: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246 


I kind of doubt this person is going to stick around and improve the map.  To 
them, it just looks like vandalism.

(IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted outright.  I 
live near it and there really is no such thing.)




> On Mar 17, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:
> 
> Goal: A new local mapper in each BadHamlet
> 
> Method:
> 
> 1) Create an overlay that displays the hamlets as ugly, rash-like
> spots.  It could even be a "rash" that allows checkouts a la tasking
> manager.
> 
> 2) Encourage mappers to do outreach in each spot.
> - Mapper in Oregon sees that there is a BadHamlet in Massachusetts,
> adjacent to their old hometown / alma mater / vacation spot.  Mapper
> reaches out to their old classmates / colleagues / neighbours to find
> one or more new mappers in / near that hamlet.
> 
> 3) New mapper fixes the BadHamlet and starts mapping their favourite
> restaurants, bowling alleys and coffee shops.

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[stevea]

Outreach is awesome.  Mechanical edits have their (rather limited, 
imho) place, but outreach is awesome.


SteveA
California

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:

> My initial reaction to any automated edit is to break out in a rash.
> Can we use that image to promote mapping best practices?  :-)
>
> Goal: A new local mapper in each BadHamlet


Here's what I did with bike repair stations:

1) Import the data *
2) Import a note at the same spot saying "this needs local input to finish
the mapping".

So the map got the basic data right away, plus a start on the processes of
engaging a local mapper to finalize things.
At the scale I used it for, it worked.  Real local mappers found the things
on the ground and finished the job.

---
With hamlets, the automated edit is a form of improvement.  Add local input
and you've got a great map.
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[John F. Eldredge]

I will have to look into the details to say for sure.

--
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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.




On March 17, 2015 4:29:34 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:


On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:18 PM, John F. Eldredge 
wrote:

>   In some cases, these "hamlets" may be separate legal entities, even
> though surrounded by the city.  For example, Davidson County, Tennessee,
> and the city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan
> government.
>
However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial
> autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have
> crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police
> forces.
>
 So, kinda like NYC and the boroughs?  Or more on par with, say, Metro
Oregon ?  Or is both somehow a thing that
exists?



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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Richard Weait]

My initial reaction to any automated edit is to break out in a rash.
Can we use that image to promote mapping best practices?  :-)

Goal: A new local mapper in each BadHamlet

Method:

1) Create an overlay that displays the hamlets as ugly, rash-like
spots.  It could even be a "rash" that allows checkouts a la tasking
manager.

2) Encourage mappers to do outreach in each spot.
- Mapper in Oregon sees that there is a BadHamlet in Massachusetts,
adjacent to their old hometown / alma mater / vacation spot.  Mapper
reaches out to their old classmates / colleagues / neighbours to find
one or more new mappers in / near that hamlet.

3) New mapper fixes the BadHamlet and starts mapping their favourite
restaurants, bowling alleys and coffee shops.

Benefits:

We get new local, mappers, in areas that aren't getting as much
attention as they might.

Mappers have a fun reason to reach out to folks they might not have
contacted recently.incorrect hamlet

Mappers have the opportunity to do some fun outreach to potential new
mappers for the first time.

Results:

The BadHamlets get fixed.

Potential objections:

"Outreach is too hard, a mechanical edit is way faster."
"I don't like outreach, I want to use software tools."
"That will take forever."

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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:18 PM, John F. Eldredge 
wrote:

>   In some cases, these "hamlets" may be separate legal entities, even
> though surrounded by the city.  For example, Davidson County, Tennessee,
> and the city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan
> government.
>
However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial
> autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have
> crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police
> forces.
>
 So, kinda like NYC and the boroughs?  Or more on par with, say, Metro
Oregon ?  Or is both somehow a thing that
exists?
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[John F. Eldredge]

In some cases, these "hamlets" may be separate legal entities, even though 
surrounded by the city.  For example, Davidson County, Tennessee, and the 
city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan government. 
However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial 
autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have 
crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police 
forces.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.




On March 17, 2015 4:25:51 AM Paul Johnson  wrote:


On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Alex Barth  wrote:

> What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban
> areas?
>
> My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in
> the US:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541
>
> I just posted how we could fix this:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931
>

I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be
retagged as place=neighbourhood



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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be
> retagged as place=neighbourhood
>

I generally agree with this, as a first step.
Especially if there's a followup challenge of some sort to improve the
tagging with local knowledge.

Many many of the hamlets in the USA data are for towns that no longer
exist.  Some of those names
linger on as informal neighborhood names, but many don't.
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Alex Barth  wrote:

> What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban
> areas?
>
> My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in
> the US:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541
>
> I just posted how we could fix this:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931
>

I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be
retagged as place=neighbourhood
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[Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Alex Barth]

What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban
areas?

My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in the
US:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541

I just posted how we could fix this:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931
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