Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

Some first results from the OSM community survey 
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2019/09/17/pre-sotm2019-survey-initial-numbers-and-reflections-from-board-members/
 Thanks all who submitted! Curious to hear reactions and ideas here and at SotM


* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Saturday, August 10, 2019, 11:45:08 AM EDT, joost schouppe 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi,
We had a tight schedule for this survey, because we want to be able to present 
something by the next SotM. That explains why some questions aren't exactly 
worded perfectly. It would have been better to get more people involved and do 
more testing. But that inevitably slows things down. We did ask the science 
mailing list for feedback, but the only response was a volunteer to translate 
to Hungarian (thanks Levente!).And while I think there are clearly some issues 
that we missed, the output will still be quite useful.
I think we would like to get more people involved next time. The first survey 
was really last minute, this one is a bit better prepared but still made a few 
mistakes. The next one can be built over a bit more time. Oh

The "remote mapping" was added as a "nice to know" and wasn't even deeply 
discussed between the three of us writing the actual survey questions.
We did intend to publish "raw data", and consulted with LWG to get a proper 
wording for that. We understood that the "Publicly, aggregated and anonymously" 
meant "answers presented together" in whatever form (spreadsheet etc) and was 
not referring to a summary. If we misenterpreted that (unfortunately that feels 
kind of obvious now), than we'll make sure the wording is better next time.
And there is also the option to become an OSMF volunteer who has signed ad NDA, 
for those who want to work with the raw data.
-- 
Joost SchouppeOpenStreetMap | Twitter | LinkedIn | 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[joost schouppe]

Hi,

We had a tight schedule for this survey, because we want to be able to
present something by the next SotM. That explains why some questions aren't
exactly worded perfectly. It would have been better to get more people
involved and do more testing. But that inevitably slows things down. We did
ask the science mailing list for feedback, but the only response was a
volunteer to translate to Hungarian (thanks Levente!). And while I think
there are clearly some issues that we missed, the output will still be
quite useful.

I think we would like to get more people involved next time. The first
survey was really last minute, this one is a bit better prepared but still
made a few mistakes. The next one can be built over a bit more time. Oh

The "remote mapping" was added as a "nice to know" and wasn't even deeply
discussed between the three of us writing the actual survey questions.

We did intend to publish "raw data", and consulted with LWG to get a proper
wording for that. We understood that the "Publicly, aggregated and
anonymously " meant "answers presented together" in whatever form
(spreadsheet etc) and was not referring to a summary. If we misenterpreted
that (unfortunately that feels kind of obvious now), than we'll make sure
the wording is better next time.

And there is also the option to become an OSMF volunteer who has signed ad
NDA, for those who want to work with the raw data.

-- 
Joost Schouppe
OpenStreetMap  |
Twitter  | LinkedIn
 | Meetup

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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 08 August 2019, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > By speaking directly and publishing my responses i risk being
> > challenged and criticized personally.  While i don't mind this
> > there are definitely a lot of people who don't want or can't do
> > this.  And many of them probably would not mind their answers being
> > published anonymously.
>
> So essentially all you want is a fourth option in the initial
> "Permission" question that is called
>
> "Publicly, anonymized" ?

Yes, the logical choices that can be offered in a survey like this are 
IMO:

* only allow publication of the statistically aggregated results (what 
you usually have in an analysis of surveys, like percentages).  For 
free form answers this requires subjective interpretation.

* allow anonymized publication of individual answers.  The anonymization 
happens by disconnecting the individual answers from each other so 
answers allowing the identification of a participants (like OSM user 
name) cannot be connected to other answers.  In addition identifying 
information could also be redacted from free form answers for 
publication.

* allow full publication of the raw data (which is not really necessary 
to provide as an option since this participants can easily do on their 
own).

* optionally to either of these allow non-public dissemination of raw 
data to certain parties.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 08.08.19 00:52, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> By speaking directly and publishing my responses i risk being challenged 
> and criticized personally.  While i don't mind this there are 
> definitely a lot of people who don't want or can't do this.  And many 
> of them probably would not mind their answers being published 
> anonymously.

So essentially all you want is a fourth option in the initial
"Permission" question that is called

"Publicly, anonymized" ?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 08 August 2019, Mikel Maron wrote:
> > My main concern is rather that there are a lot of free form
> > questions yet there is no option for the participants to allow
> > publication of the individual free form answers in anonymized
> > form. 
>
> Select “publicly aggregated and anonymously” as answer to the first
> question and the free form answers will be published.

Aggregated means exactly the opposite.

-- 
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

> My main concern is rather that there are a lot of free form questions yet 
>there is no option for the participants to allow publication of the individual 
>free form answers in anonymized form. 
Select “publicly aggregated and anonymously” as answer to the first question 
and the free form answers will be published.

Mikel



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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 07 August 2019, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> I think that part of the motivation for doing surveys is that there
> was a belief that some people don't want to say something in public
> e.g. on a mailing list for fear of their opinion being challenged.

The question is if this fear is about them being challenged or their 
opinion being challenged.

The idea that there might be people who have (a) an interest in their 
opinion being heard and at the same time (b) a fear of their opinion 
being challenged even in anonymity (meaning that no one except them 
knows it is their opinion) is intriguing.

Anyway - what i would have liked to see is the survey providing *the 
option* for participants to allow the publication of their anonymized 
individual answers, not *the requirement* to allow this. 

> Of course, if you say your opinion through an intermediary, there is
> *always* the risk of the intermediary deliberately or accidentally
> misinterpreting our opinion. That's the downside, and the upside is
> you get so say what you think without anyone challenging you about
> it. It's a deal that you can take if you want; and if you don't want
> it then you can *still* post your opinion on a mailing list or forum
> or your user diary, where you can speak directly without being
> interpreted by an intermediary - or even post your survey responses
> publicly like you did.

By speaking directly and publishing my responses i risk being challenged 
and criticized personally.  While i don't mind this there are 
definitely a lot of people who don't want or can't do this.  And many 
of them probably would not mind their answers being published 
anonymously.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 8/7/19 23:24, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> In other words: What the survey says is you are welcome to provide your 
> ideas through the survey but we, the creators of the survey, reserve 
> the right to interpret your answers as we see fit and neither you nor 
> anyone else may correct us if we do not correctly interpret what you 
> wrote.

I think that part of the motivation for doing surveys is that there was
a belief that some people don't want to say something in public e.g. on
a mailing list for fear of their opinion being challenged.

Of course, if you say your opinion through an intermediary, there is
*always* the risk of the intermediary deliberately or accidentally
misinterpreting our opinion. That's the downside, and the upside is you
get so say what you think without anyone challenging you about it. It's
a deal that you can take if you want; and if you don't want it then you
can *still* post your opinion on a mailing list or forum or your user
diary, where you can speak directly without being interpreted by an
intermediary - or even post your survey responses publicly like you did.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[john whelan]

Creating a survey that works takes a lot of effort and it is quite
specialised.

Next time it might be worth asking some of the people who like to survey
the OSM community to build the survey incorporating a couple of questions
of their own and do a test run first.

Cheerio John

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019, 5:27 PM Christoph Hormann,  wrote:

> On Wednesday 07 August 2019, Simon Poole wrote:
> >
> > @the designers of the survey. The question wrt remote mapping would
> > seem to be designed to achieve a specific result.
>
> I can also see some expectations and assumptions being visible 'between
> the lines' in some questions but this looks more like projecting own
> preconceptions and state of mind and less like active manipulation.
>
> There seem to be overall a lot of questions where there is a high
> likelihood that many participants will answer a different question than
> what those designing the survey wanted to ask - due to unclear and
> vague terminology for example and due to ambiguous references.
>
> The question you referred to for example says
>
> "Do you remotely map other countries?"
>
> and it is unclear if the "other" refers to the country where you live or
> to "where do you map mostly".  Pure armchair mappers only mapping in a
> single country might answer "No" to this question.
>
> My main concern is rather that there are a lot of free form questions
> yet there is no option for the participants to allow publication of the
> individual free form answers in anonymized form.  This means we will -
> just like in the previous survey - only learn about any of these
> answers through the lens of the subjective interpretation of those
> making the aggregation.  This provides a lot of room for distortion
> through either cultural bias or deliberate selectivity of those doing
> the aggregation which kind of defeats the whole idea of doing a survey
> to reach parts of the community that are otherwise not visible.
>
> In other words: What the survey says is you are welcome to provide your
> ideas through the survey but we, the creators of the survey, reserve
> the right to interpret your answers as we see fit and neither you nor
> anyone else may correct us if we do not correctly interpret what you
> wrote.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 07 August 2019, Simon Poole wrote:
>
> @the designers of the survey. The question wrt remote mapping would
> seem to be designed to achieve a specific result.

I can also see some expectations and assumptions being visible 'between 
the lines' in some questions but this looks more like projecting own 
preconceptions and state of mind and less like active manipulation.

There seem to be overall a lot of questions where there is a high 
likelihood that many participants will answer a different question than 
what those designing the survey wanted to ask - due to unclear and 
vague terminology for example and due to ambiguous references.

The question you referred to for example says

"Do you remotely map other countries?"

and it is unclear if the "other" refers to the country where you live or  
to "where do you map mostly".  Pure armchair mappers only mapping in a 
single country might answer "No" to this question.

My main concern is rather that there are a lot of free form questions 
yet there is no option for the participants to allow publication of the 
individual free form answers in anonymized form.  This means we will - 
just like in the previous survey - only learn about any of these 
answers through the lens of the subjective interpretation of those 
making the aggregation.  This provides a lot of room for distortion 
through either cultural bias or deliberate selectivity of those doing 
the aggregation which kind of defeats the whole idea of doing a survey 
to reach parts of the community that are otherwise not visible.

In other words: What the survey says is you are welcome to provide your 
ideas through the survey but we, the creators of the survey, reserve 
the right to interpret your answers as we see fit and neither you nor 
anyone else may correct us if we do not correctly interpret what you 
wrote.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 07 August 2019, Dorothea Kazazi wrote:
> Hello,
>
> The following survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap
> was developed by board members. The survey is not quantitative and
> its aim is to stimulate  discussions in local communities and at the
> Local Chapters Congress at SotM.
>
> https://osmf.limequery.org/428835

Answer to "Check any of the following to describe your involvement in 
OpenStreetMap" will be different in the German and English version for 
anyone self-employed with OSM connections.

As with the last survey i published my answers:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/imagico/diary/390441

-- 
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Dorothea Kazazi]

Hello,

A Spanish translation was just sent to us. It is now live at:
https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=es

If anyone wants to translate the survey to additional languages, please 
note that you have to:

- commit to translate the answers
- sign a non-disclosure agreement 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/b/be/OSMF_Non_Disclosure_Agreement_20180911.pdf


Thank you.

warm greetings,
Dorothea

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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[marc marc]

Thanks Mikel and Eugene.
a reaction to my idea of being able to receive a follow-up ?

Le 07.08.19 à 17:08, Mikel Maron a écrit :
> We did this write up on how the previous survey was useful for board 
> discussions, and some summary of what was raised 
> https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2019/06/13/surveying-openstreetmap/
> 
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, August 7, 2019, 05:55:35 PM GMT+3, marc marc 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> where are the results of the previous survey and the resulting actions
> available?
> I don't remember the exact title but I'm talking about the investigation
> about what osmf could/should do, a few months ago.
> it would be nice to be able to indicate that you want to receive a
> notification when it is available, as not everyone reads the minutes of
> the different groups to find a follow-up to what they have participated.
> 
> Regard,
> Marc
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Tobias Knerr]

Hi Marc,

On 07.08.19 16:53, marc marc wrote:
> where are the results of the previous survey and the resulting actions 
> available?

there were two surveys run by the OSMF in the past months. One was the
survey in advance of the board's face to face meeting in Brussels. We
summarized these survey results as part of this blog post:

https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2019/06/13/surveying-openstreetmap/

Unfortunately, we cannot share the raw dataset as we failed to ask the
participants for their permission to publish their responses. However,
if you have specific questions about the results, we'll try to answer if
possible!

The most commonly mentioned concerns were discussed immediately at the
boards face-to-face meeting in Brussels, and board members are currently
tasked to work on several of them. There were also some ideas which we
felt were not part of the board's responsibilities, so we decided to
forward these to the appropriate parties.

A second, more recent survey was directed to working groups. This effort
is still ongoing – not all groups have responded so far, and I believe
we haven't evaluated the responses in detail yet.

Yours,
Tobias

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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 10:55 PM marc marc  wrote:

> where are the results of the previous survey and the resulting actions
> available?
> I don't remember the exact title but I'm talking about the investigation
> about what osmf could/should do, a few months ago.
>

The OSMF Board published a blog post on the main OSM blog about the results
of that survey including some possible action items:
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2019/06/13/surveying-openstreetmap/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

We did this write up on how the previous survey was useful for board 
discussions, and some summary of what was raised 
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2019/06/13/surveying-openstreetmap/

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019, 05:55:35 PM GMT+3, marc marc 
 wrote:  
 
 Hello,

where are the results of the previous survey and the resulting actions 
available?
I don't remember the exact title but I'm talking about the investigation 
about what osmf could/should do, a few months ago.
it would be nice to be able to indicate that you want to receive a 
notification when it is available, as not everyone reads the minutes of 
the different groups to find a follow-up to what they have participated.

Regard,
Marc
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[marc marc]

Hello,

where are the results of the previous survey and the resulting actions 
available?
I don't remember the exact title but I'm talking about the investigation 
about what osmf could/should do, a few months ago.
it would be nice to be able to indicate that you want to receive a 
notification when it is available, as not everyone reads the minutes of 
the different groups to find a follow-up to what they have participated.

Regard,
Marc
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Dorothea Kazazi]

Hi Simon :)


There's a typo in the section on communication channels, the first
occurrence of "other mailing lists" is mangled.


Thanks, it is un-mangled now :)

warm greetings,
Dorothea

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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

Also note that no questions are required, so you can skip if most comfortable 
with that. 
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019, 05:00:05 PM GMT+3, Mikel Maron 
 wrote:  
 
 > The question wrt remote mapping would seem to be designed to achieve a 
 >specific result. 


Not at all. But please do feel free to answer truthfully, and explain anything 
in the previous question "Where do you map mostly?"


* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019, 04:31:38 PM GMT+3, Simon Poole 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi Dorothea

There's a typo in the section on communication channels, the first
occurrence of "other mailing lists" is mangled.

@the designers of the survey. The question wrt remote mapping would seem
to be designed to achieve a specific result. While a truthful answer on
my behalf would require a yes, because now and then I'll map remote and
if it is simply reverting a changeset on request of a remote mapper, but
that doesn't mean that a) I in general think it is a good idea, b) it is
any significant part of my contributions.

Simon

Am 07.08.2019 um 12:59 schrieb Dorothea Kazazi:
> Hello,
>
> The following survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap
> was developed by board members. The survey is not quantitative and its
> aim is to stimulate  discussions in local communities and at the Local
> Chapters Congress at SotM.
>
> https://osmf.limequery.org/428835
>
> ~ The survey will run for two weeks.
> ~ Only one question is mandatory: "How can we share your answers?".
>
> There is more information on the scope of the survey and approach on
> the opening page.
>
> warm greetings,
>
> Dorothea
>
>
> ~~
> Links you can share for different languages:
>
> English (Base language): https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=en
> Chinese (Simplified): https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=zh-Hans
> Chinese (Traditional; Hong Kong):
> https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=zh-Hant-HK
> French: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=fr
> German: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=de
> Hungarian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=hu
> Italian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=it
> Lithuanian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=lt
> Persian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=fa
> Portuguese (Brazilian): https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=pt-BR
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Mikel Maron]

> The question wrt remote mapping would seem to be designed to achieve a 
>specific result. 


Not at all. But please do feel free to answer truthfully, and explain anything 
in the previous question "Where do you map mostly?"


* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019, 04:31:38 PM GMT+3, Simon Poole 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi Dorothea

There's a typo in the section on communication channels, the first
occurrence of "other mailing lists" is mangled.

@the designers of the survey. The question wrt remote mapping would seem
to be designed to achieve a specific result. While a truthful answer on
my behalf would require a yes, because now and then I'll map remote and
if it is simply reverting a changeset on request of a remote mapper, but
that doesn't mean that a) I in general think it is a good idea, b) it is
any significant part of my contributions.

Simon

Am 07.08.2019 um 12:59 schrieb Dorothea Kazazi:
> Hello,
>
> The following survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap
> was developed by board members. The survey is not quantitative and its
> aim is to stimulate  discussions in local communities and at the Local
> Chapters Congress at SotM.
>
> https://osmf.limequery.org/428835
>
> ~ The survey will run for two weeks.
> ~ Only one question is mandatory: "How can we share your answers?".
>
> There is more information on the scope of the survey and approach on
> the opening page.
>
> warm greetings,
>
> Dorothea
>
>
> ~~
> Links you can share for different languages:
>
> English (Base language): https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=en
> Chinese (Simplified): https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=zh-Hans
> Chinese (Traditional; Hong Kong):
> https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=zh-Hant-HK
> French: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=fr
> German: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=de
> Hungarian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=hu
> Italian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=it
> Lithuanian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=lt
> Persian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=fa
> Portuguese (Brazilian): https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=pt-BR
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

[Simon Poole]

Hi Dorothea

There's a typo in the section on communication channels, the first
occurrence of "other mailing lists" is mangled.

@the designers of the survey. The question wrt remote mapping would seem
to be designed to achieve a specific result. While a truthful answer on
my behalf would require a yes, because now and then I'll map remote and
if it is simply reverting a changeset on request of a remote mapper, but
that doesn't mean that a) I in general think it is a good idea, b) it is
any significant part of my contributions.

Simon

Am 07.08.2019 um 12:59 schrieb Dorothea Kazazi:
> Hello,
>
> The following survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap
> was developed by board members. The survey is not quantitative and its
> aim is to stimulate  discussions in local communities and at the Local
> Chapters Congress at SotM.
>
> https://osmf.limequery.org/428835
>
> ~ The survey will run for two weeks.
> ~ Only one question is mandatory: "How can we share your answers?".
>
> There is more information on the scope of the survey and approach on
> the opening page.
>
> warm greetings,
>
> Dorothea
>
>
> ~~
> Links you can share for different languages:
>
> English (Base language): https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=en
> Chinese (Simplified): https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=zh-Hans
> Chinese (Traditional; Hong Kong):
> https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=zh-Hant-HK
> French: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=fr
> German: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=de
> Hungarian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=hu
> Italian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=it
> Lithuanian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=lt
> Persian: https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=fa
> Portuguese (Brazilian): https://osmf.limequery.org/428835?lang=pt-BR
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



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