Re: What is Happening??
Dear Kyle, -- Samstag, 2. Februar 2008, 22:03:25: Ok, sounds like this is going exactly where I hoped it would not. I was reluctant to make the comments and probably should have kept my mouth shut. I did not intend to start a flame thread on this topic. I was simply trying to get a handle on the best approach to take, not start a word war. Sure things have changed, but only in the tools available to do the same thing. Logic is logic, technique is technique no matter what you want to call it. I don't think you should apologize or have kept your mouth shut. Why? You only have expressed your view on this Topic. Ok, it's being discussed several times - Gleason wrote about it. Eveyone has their own way of doing things, some work better than others and some not at all. Whatever RIT wants to do with the program is their business and theirs alone. Sorry to muddy the water on this, I will keep quite. Sure, TB! is RITlab's baby. And if they wouldn't like our views RITLabs would not support this ML with Alpha and Beta Versions. As a non Programmer, and for the past years only following the development as a Gost in the background, I think to observe, that there seems to be substantial changes being done and more to come in the coding. And those definitely affect the functionality more than any other changes. One or Two years ago RITLabs rewrote the whole TB! a new, when I recall properly. Probably this Alpha Version is just another peace that will and is rewritten from scratch. I can only support Thomas closing words of his posting. Myself also, I am only using TB! and still try to convince people here in the Middle East also to use it. MicroEd is capable of using Arabic. -- best regards | Using The Bat! 3.95.6 www.EddieCastelli.com | on Windows 2000 5.0 Eddie | Build 2195 Service Pack 4 on Tour | Current beta is 4.0.0.20 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: What is Happening??
Guten Tag Kyle Goodnight, am Samstag, 2. Februar 2008 um 05:08 schrieben Sie: How is TB being developed? Is it a central staff, distrbuted or some other structure?? I agree with the quoted and some other things of your post. It would help us, to have a detailled plan and it would help Ritlabs to make a plan and fix things before they open another Pandora's Box. I feel like a group of confused people running around and searching for Easter Eggs - could this be understood? -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Jens Franik mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Picture of me? X-Rogue http://www.de2all.de/Kr_bat.jpg The Bat! 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) Windows 2000 5.0 build 2195 Service Pack 4 Current beta is 4.0.0.16 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: What is Happening??
On Saturday, February 2, 2008, 3:08:35 AM, Jens Franik wrote: I feel like a group of confused people running around and searching for Easter Eggs - could this be understood? It looks to me like what is happening is that new tools are replacing old tools, like new editors, etc. Those things have to be in place before beta development can begin. I guess maybe if we knew what they wrere going to break next, it would help, but I think the new foundation or superstructure or whatever has to be in place, and the alphas have to evolve into something stable that can be developed systematically -- Dwight A. Corrin 1201 W River Blvd Apt B108 Wichita KS 67203 316.303.9385 phone ahead to fax dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using IMAP with The Bat! 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) on Windows XP version 5,1 (Service Pack 2) Current beta is 4.0.0.16 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: What is Happening??
Hello all, Saturday, February 2, 2008, Kyle Goodnight wrote: I mean no disrespect, malace, or criticisim what so ever, just to set the tone. I am just having a terrible time trying to figure out how to go about checking the pogram for functionality as each version is released. with all respect, if You are testing alphaversions, You must accept, any thing can be broken, mainly if we are in alpha stage and major parts are still developed yet. As each of these new versions are released, something that worked previously now doesn't. As new features are implemented, other stable features either go away or no longer work. I had hoped to help with the debug testing but so far, I have not been able to get a grasp on where/how/what or when to check check things which are announced in changelog, this means these things are ready for testing. For example Microed editor is still developed, same with spellcheckers, statusbars are not ready yet and so on. -- Bye Marek Mikus Czech support of The Bat! http://www.thebat.cz Using the best The Bat! 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 with MyMacros,XMP,AnotherMacros, NOD32 Antivirus plugin and AntispamSniper v 2.7.1.5 Notebook Toshiba, Core2 Duo 1.83 GHz, 1 GB RAM Current beta is 4.0.0.17 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: What is Happening??
Hello Gleason, Saturday, February 2, 2008, 12:06:19 AM, you wrote: GP Kyle, GP GP The unhappy truth of programming is that functions are interrelated GP in ways that often baffle non-programmers. Is it necessary for a working GP function to no longer work simply because some change has been made? GP Such things do often happen. Guess I should have offered more credentials before speaking about programming/debug techniques to qualify my concerns. I am a retired IS professional who was a MCSE, and retired as a fully qualifed IBM Systems Programmer. I started in programming long before the PC was even a glimmer on the personal horizon as an assembler programmer. I worked on most of the Mini-computers of that era before entering the mainframe arena. I worked on development progjects like sequential processing delivery for Arpanet (what is now referred to as The Internet). I built my own 8080 personal computer, etiched my own motherboard for it (it worked!) and coded assembler routines(drivers) for that PC. I have programmed in many languages that most of you probably have never heard of or only read about in history books. (Algol,Lobol,Cobol,Fortan,Pascal,C,C++,etc) I have paid my dues and know a bit about how successful program development works. I understand the risks of using a development system, but as I stated before, even with a deveopment effort, there has to be structure to deveopment or you end up shooting yourself in the foot too many times (been there, done that). My point here is that to effectivey assist in deveopment, there needs(has to be) a base line of stability (regression style never works well) so that testers can effectively test new code paths. If the base changes with each feature inclusion, where is the base for metrics? Structure breeds structure. Take Open Source Programming as an example. With each OS project, there is a base line that everyone has to respect, deveopment is modular and adaptable. Where would linux be now if with every update the kernel was not kept static? Again, I am simply trying to understand the methodology of development and try to be a positive contributor to the deveopment. Right now, I can't see how to help as I don't know from one release to the next if the things that worked will still be working so that i can relate stability to instability. The core users here are positive, friendly and seem to know the product well. What say you fellows? Am I way off base here? Again, these comments are intended to be positive and constructive, I mean no harm and only wish to be of assistance. -- Best regards, Kylemailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 4.0.0.17 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: What is Happening??
Hallo Kyle, On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 07:32:00 -0500GMT (2-2-2008, 13:32 +0100, where I live), you wrote: KG Again, I am simply trying to understand the methodology of KG development and try to be a positive contributor to the KG deveopment. Right now, I can't see how to help as I don't know KG from one release to the next if the things that worked KG will still be working so that i can relate stability to instability. What you're seeing now is that some new features couldn't be programmed into the existing code. That's why the editor is written all over again and therefore the stability you're looking for is missing currently. -- Groetjes, Roelof Hi, I'm a tagline. When I grow up I'm gonna be a novel! http://www.voormijalleen.nl/ The Bat! 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 3 pop3 accounts OTFE enabled P4 3GHz 2 GB RAM pgpNcfrvWxo1A.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 4.0.0.17 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: What is Happening??
Hello Kyle, On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 07:32:00 -0500 GMT (02/02/2008, 19:32 +0700 GMT), Kyle Goodnight wrote: KG Again, I am simply trying to understand the methodology of KG development and try to be a positive contributor to the KG deveopment. Right now, I can't see how to help as I don't know KG from one release to the next if the things that worked will still KG be working so that i can relate stability to instability. KG The core users here are positive, friendly and seem to know the KG product well. What say you fellows? Am I way off base here? Again, KG these comments are intended to be positive and constructive, I KG mean no harm and only wish to be of assistance. What you are experiencing here is different from beta testing. Beta testing is releasing almost-finished products to external testers, so they can test the new features and advise on any bugs. This current series is an alpha series. An alpha will usually be tested in-house, but they decided to ask for our input, as they don't have many staff. Many modules are being rewritten. The programming is centrally done in a country called Moldova. Ritlabs is not a big company, but many members of this list believe they have a good product. Several members fo this are IT professionals, others are simply users who try to help a small company that was founded by students over 10 years ago, and now feeds a small number of families. I saw you reported your background in another mail. I myself wrote my first program in 1978 (in Pascal at the time, long before Turbo Pascal came out), hated the concept of something called MS-Windows for a while, and am currently pursuing an MSc in Computing for Commerce and Industry. I'm not an IT professional, it's a hobby. Professionally, I'm in international business. I wouldn't want to do my business communications with any other email client than The Bat!. - This serves as an example, other members of this list have other backgrounds. I hope to have shed some light. Please be assured that your input is appreciated. -- Cheers, Thomas. From page 468 of Using Turbo C++ by Herbert Schildt: REMEMBER: The private parts of an object are accessible only by functions that are members of that object. (Well, there goes free love...) http://thomas.fernandez.hat-gar-keine-homepage.de/ Message reply created with The Bat! 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 4.0.0.17 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: What is Happening??
Hello Marek, Saturday, February 2, 2008, 7:06:16 AM, you wrote: For example Microed editor is still developed, same with spellcheckers, statusbars are not ready yet and so on. I think it would be much more helpful if we could have a fully functioning spell check for testing purposes. Currently, I have files in the directory which I don't know if they are needed, work, etc. At this point, the last alpha release did not state the spell checker was going to work. Personally, a proper spell checker is simply a Must Have. Can we get a time line on this. Jerry -- Best regards, Ethanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 4.0.0.17 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: What is Happening??
Kyle, Guess I should have offered more credentials before speaking about programming/debug techniques to qualify my concerns. I am a retired IS professional who was a MCSE, and retired as a fully qualifed IBM Systems Programmer. I started in programming long before the PC was even a glimmer on the personal horizon as an assembler programmer. I worked on most of the Mini-computers of that era before entering the mainframe arena. I worked on development progjects like sequential processing delivery for Arpanet (what is now referred to as The Internet). I built my own 8080 personal computer, etiched my own motherboard for it (it worked!) and coded assembler Great, I cut my teeth on Assembler too. But things have changed a lot since then. At one time it was not a large matter to slap together a DOS based pop email client that only did a few things. I understand the risks of using a development system, but as I stated before, even with a deveopment effort, there has to be structure to deveopment or you end up shooting yourself in the foot too many times (been there, done that). My point here is that to effectivey assist in deveopment, there needs(has to be) a base line of stability (regression style never works well) so that testers can effectively test new code paths. If the base changes with each feature inclusion, where is the base for metrics? We aren't doing any metrics. I suspect that what will happen over the next several months is that with out help, TB will come to a level of stability where it can be called a beta, and then testing can be more like you describe. I think the eseential thing to notice here was that, for a long time, Rit made no new test releases, and people complained. We want to be included in what is happening. So, Rit decided to start releasing alphas. Now people complain that what we are getting is not up to our personal standard of what is testable. Would it feel better if Rit called them pre-alphas? Or should they go back to not making any more releases until they have a real beta for us? -- Gleason Using 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 4.0.0.17 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: What is Happening??
Guten Tag Gleason Pace, am Samstag, 2. Februar 2008 um 16:44 schrieben Sie: I think the eseential thing to notice here was that, for a long time, Rit made no new test releases, and people complained. We want to be included in what is happening. So, Rit decided to start releasing alphas. Now people complain that what we are getting is not up to our personal standard of what is testable. Would it feel better if Rit called them pre-alphas? Or should they go back to not making any more releases until they have a real beta for us? Ok, if you explain it like this - i would like to have the Alphas :-) Maybe working system is different in Moldavia - this specially is maybe hard to see as i am German ;-) -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Jens Franik mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Picture of me? X-Rogue http://www.de2all.de/Kr_bat.jpg The Bat! 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) Windows 2000 5.0 build 2195 Service Pack 4 Current beta is 4.0.0.17 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: What is Happening??
On Saturday, February 2, 2008, 9:11:15 AM, Ethan J. Mings wrote: I think it would be much more helpful if we could have a fully functioning spell check for testing purpose that seems to be one of the things they are working on. We got two new spell check files in the .17 release. -- Dwight A. Corrin 1201 W River Blvd Apt B108 Wichita KS 67203 316.303.9385 phone ahead to fax dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using IMAP with The Bat! 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) on Windows Vista version 6,0 () Current beta is 4.0.0.17 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
What is Happening??
Hi Beta Group, I mean no disrespect, malace, or criticisim what so ever, just to set the tone. I am just having a terrible time trying to figure out how to go about checking the pogram for functionality as each version is released. As each of these new versions are released, something that worked previously now doesn't. As new features are implemented, other stable features either go away or no longer work. I had hoped to help with the debug testing but so far, I have not been able to get a grasp on where/how/what or when to check. Is the purpose of the beta group to simply tell the authors what they have broken that worked before, or is the intent to effectively sectionaly test the product and provide feed back on results? In order to progressively test a product, a base line of functionality has to be established with a completely functional stable product. Then as each each feature is implemented, it's fuctionality is tested. If it breaks a stable function, that is fixed before anything else is implemented in order to update a stable base. If the development is distributed to groups or individuals, the remote team must adhear to the base line product, not changing any base line code that would impact some other group with their update. How is TB being developed? Is it a central staff, distrbuted or some other structure?? I like the functionaly(intended) behind TB but it is very difficult to be objective when one has no idea what is coming done the pike. Is there a priority hit list that the authors use to make changes or is it totally at their discression? Agan, It is not my intent to be insulting or say I can do it better. I am just trying to determine if I should continue using TB on a daily basis as my client or move to something more stable and watch for a notice that TB has has been released. I understand what an Alpha is and it's intended purpose but the releases really confuse me when trying to figure out development structure. -- Kyle TheBat! 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) Windows XPPro 5 1 Build 2600 SP2 Current beta is 4.0.0.16 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: What is Happening??
Kyle, In order to progressively test a product, a base line of functionality has to be established with a completely functional stable product. Then as each each feature is implemented, it's fuctionality is tested. If it breaks a stable function, that is fixed before anything else is implemented in order to update a stable base. The unhappy truth of programming is that functions are interrelated in ways that often baffle non-programmers. Is it necessary for a working function to no longer work simply because some change has been made? Such things do often happen. So there is a testing strategy called regression testing. With every new alpha (which is not even good enough to be called a beta, so pretty shaky), testers go through the entire program looking for things that don't work any more. Yes, absolutely report these, but understand that fixing those things will have whatever priority the necessities of programming reality dictate. It might be necessary to put that issue on hold for a while and look at other things. It might be that the resolution of the problem will depend on what happens with those other things, for instance. Agan, It is not my intent to be insulting or say I can do it better. I am just trying to determine if I should continue using TB on a daily basis as my client or move to something more stable and watch for a notice that TB has has been released. The You are about to use an alpha version message when TB starts is serious and fair warning. You should heed it and accept or reject the risk as your needs dictate. -- Gleason Using 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 4.0.0.16 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: What is Happening??
Hallo Kyle, On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:08:46 -0500GMT (2-2-2008, 5:08 +0100, where I live), you wrote: KG Agan, It is not my intent to be insulting or say I can do it KG better. I am just trying to determine if I should continue using KG TB on a daily basis as my client or move to something more stable KG and watch for a notice that TB has has been released. I KG understand what an Alpha is and it's intended purpose but the KG releases really confuse me when trying to figure out development structure. There's always the possibility of using the latest public release, that's rather stable. Beta testing (and even more so for alpha testing) incudes the risk that you encounter something that's broken and some broken things include risk of data loss. You shouldn't use an alpha or beta version of your mail client, when you're not absolutely sure that you can recover any mail that might get lost. The case of the current full rewrite of the editor only empasizes that. On the pro side of beta testing is that you get those new features months before everybody else, generally at the cost of minor inconveniences. -- Groetjes, Roelof GPF:018 Unrecoverable error. System destroyed. http://www.voormijalleen.nl/ The Bat! 4.0.0.17 (ALPHA) Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 3 pop3 accounts OTFE enabled P4 3GHz 2 GB RAM pgpWgYRa7qzOF.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 4.0.0.16 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
