Re[2]: Licence unhappiness?
Hello Allie, Saturday, September 4, 2004, 10:36:30 PM, you wrote: Tony, [T] wrote: . And even if RitLabs hired 100 graphics artists TB! will never be main stream. It's targeted at a different market than Outlook. A market with people that are prepared to invest more time in an application. And I could be very wrong here but I think that kind of people are the ones that complain the most about bloatware. Yes. You could be wrong, and I do believe you're wrong on this unfounded assumption. On what statement? The entire paragraph which seems to outline Ritlab's intended market segment. No I have no written proof about that statement. But you haven't either. This is why I usually make no claims in that regard. You made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. The #1 perfectly rational reason for one not understanding why Ritlabs would waste time on feature X is that one isn't aware of the needs of the userbase Ritlabs currently serves or targets. Of course, close behind that #1 would be the more popular #2 which is that Ritlabs don't know what they're doing. Nice try If you really see no difference between Outlook and TB! and their market segment there is no much use continuing this chat. But I believe you do. And targeting another market segment means TB! would change so much it's no longer TB! . Finally. It's fine with me to discuss this in greater detail. But I can't seem to get my point across. I fear that's largely due to my poor English. It may look like running away but it is not :-) But [EMAIL PROTECTED] shows my original intention of my posting. Especially the last paragraph. Until next time Allie :-) -- Tony Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny? Current version is 3.00.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Licence unhappiness?
Howdy Bryan, Friday, September 3, 2004, 9:04:01 PM, Bryan wrotened: But the product is a good one, I think. Bryan It is - but I have a suspicion that it's been released a tad Bryan early. The help system is all Version 2, the mail ticker seems Bryan to behave a bt oddly (showing read messages for some reason) Bryan and my headers are claiming I am running Pro when I registered Bryan Home. The help system is still relevant for the basics of TB! v3 except for the filtering system. Mail ticker has logic which causes it to move in what appears an unlogical way but it does actually follow a logic path. The home version saying Pro is a known error on ritlabs part. Having changed the text of the version. heh You need to add a sig delminiter which is dashdashspacereturn Bryan Bryan. Bryan Bryan Current version is 3.00.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information: Bryan http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html Should look like what i have below... i just hope it works. -- Have Fun, | | |en is |\ohop [EMAIL PROTECTED] crashing The Bat! v3.0 falling out of mid air with Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 It's hard to make a comeback when you haven't been anywhere. Current version is 3.00.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Licence unhappiness?
Howdy Allie, Saturday, September 4, 2004, 1:44:44 PM, Allie wrotened: Allie But please, I'm personally really getting tired of the comments Allie about smilies and new icons as if they comprise a HUGE coding Allie effort that could have been channeled elsewhere, or that they Allie comprise a significant source of buggy behaviour and bloat in Allie TB!. Go Allie go Allie go. from the new non mod allie cheerleading squad -- Have Fun, | | |en is |\ohop [EMAIL PROTECTED] crashing The Bat! v3.0 falling out of mid air with Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 The voices may not be real, but they have some pretty good ideas. Current version is 3.00.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Licence unhappiness?
Hello Allie, Saturday, September 4, 2004, 5:44:44 AM, you wrote: Tony, [T] wrote: Add fat graphics, animated stuff, and useless gadgets. IMO TB! made it's 1st step in that direction with the new icons and promise of skins. soapbox You know, I find this interesting. Me too. :-) The very common negative commentary about new icons and smilies with improved XP look support is just testimony to how these things are noticed, whether it be positively or negatively. The 1st thing I do after installing XP is reverting everything to classic w2k look. The applications appearance is the first thing that greets the user. Agreed. And important to me. Putting reliability and robust functionality aside as being a must, an attractive interface adds a lot to an application that requires day to day user interaction. But v2 had a nice look. Fat icons are one of the reasons that scared me away from Outlook (and Eudora) So the looks can attract and scare away users. And even if RitLabs hired 100 graphics artists TB! will never be main stream. It's targeted at a different market than Outlook. A market with people that are prepared to invest more time in an application. And I could be very wrong here but I think that kind of people are teh ones that complain the most about bloatware. IOW's, if I had two applications with equal functionality, reliability and ease of use, I'd personally go for the one that I found more pleasant to look at. It's not a waste of time and development to spend a while focusing on improving the applications appearance. Furthermore, it's not usually the cause of unreliability creeping in, neither does it contribute much to bloating the software. On itself not. But somehow it often goes hand in hand with instability/bloating. Everything can be programmed bugfree. However company policy dictates how long is spend on tracking bugs. What has made TB! difficult to tame in terms of reliability and bugs are not the introduction of smilies and the efforts at improving the applications appearance as is so commonly mentioned, I'm sure there's more. It's these major additions/enhancements that have made TB!'s executable that much larger, Sure it makes it larger. But I'm also sure that TB! could fit in half the size! But that would take a lot longer to program. I'm aware of that. It's just like K9. Below 100Kb and outperforms all/most 4MB+ spam filters. that much harder to maintain it's reliability and to keep the bugs out. Perhaps these major features could have been introduced more gradually? A more reliable approach perhaps? That makes for a sound argument. That probably would be a better approach. I do a little programming myself and I learned that debugging every feature before adding more functionality saves lots of time later. But please, I'm personally really getting tired of the comments about smilies and new icons as if they comprise a HUGE coding effort that could have been channeled elsewhere, or that they comprise a significant source of buggy behaviour and bloat in TB!. But please, I'm personally really getting tired of the comments about what I'm allowed to say :-) If everybody shuts up how should RitLabs know what its users wants. And you selectively snipped all the stuff I said in favour of RitLabs to make it look like hate mail. Besides I think you missed my point about icons and smilies. History has proven that it very often (not always) is a start of bloatware. See my example of Norton. Or Microsoft. Another example. So many bug fixes. Yes large programs like office are harder to debug. But they have an army of programmers working on it. -- Tony I don't have to be dead to donate my organ. Want it? Current version is 3.00.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Licence unhappiness?
Hello Allie, Saturday, September 4, 2004, 6:07:27 PM, you wrote: Tony, [T] wrote: The 1st thing I do after installing XP is reverting everything to classic w2k look. Choice. It's all a matter of choice. Roelof recently stated that TB! doesn't look any different to him since he still uses the glyph set he likes. With your glyph set and the classic Windows look, you'll not see any difference with TB!. The fact that you immediately switch to the classic look is testimony to the fact the even you care about the appearance of your applications. I never claimed diffrently. I even think a good UI takes a *lot* of development time. And is *very* important. But UI is more then icons. And I like TB! UI. That's why I bought it. And it's functionality of cource . http://www.thebatworld.de/system/sections/index.php?op=listarticlessecid=10 Thanks for this very useful link! And even if RitLabs hired 100 graphics artists TB! will never be main stream. It's targeted at a different market than Outlook. A market with people that are prepared to invest more time in an application. And I could be very wrong here but I think that kind of people are the ones that complain the most about bloatware. Yes. You could be wrong, and I do believe you're wrong on this unfounded assumption. On what statement? Not becoming main stream or bloatware? Main stream is a fact. Bloatware is not unfounded at all. It's just a feeling of years of 'being around' in none mainstream app communities. No I have no written proof about that statement. But you haven't either. On itself not. But somehow it often goes hand in hand with instability/bloating. Everything can be programmed bugfree. However company policy dictates how long is spend on tracking bugs. I disagree here. I'm saying that bugs are in TB!, And most likely in 99.9% of all programs of reasonable size. And I have no problems with it either. As long as the bugs are not to huge, and reasonable effort is made to fix them. many are frustrated with their bugs not being fixed, and many quite unreasonably cast a lot of blame/attention/emphasis on the changes being made to the user-interface appearance as being the reason for this. Agreed a icon with a different color doesn't make a program more buggy. But I can fully understand that users that have real problems with a certain bug rather would see RitLabs spend the X hours/$ they spend on the icons was spend on debugging. I've outlined a lot bigger development efforts/enhancements that are occurring concurrently. Overwhelming reasonably bugfree development with the simultaneous introduction of all these new components seems like the bigger problem here. All agreed. New functionality comes often with bugs. Simultaneous introduction of features quite likely borne of a strong desire to please customers. Probably. And I guess the part of the users that need that functionality are happy. To make myself clear adding 100 new features doesn't necessarily mean something becomes bloatware. But adding 10 new feature *can* make it bloatware. And stopping development isn't a good way either. That's actually what drove me away from Forte Agent. All taken in account TB! ranks as the best for my use. That probably would be a better approach. I do a little programming myself and I learned that debugging every feature before adding more functionality saves lots of time later. Yes. Seems reasonable and I witness this approach with MDaemon, my mailserver. They run an exemplary beta program with a top-notch and very stable mailserver resulting. Of course, there are always bugs being reported. :) As I wrote above bugs have to be expected unless it's programmed by a team of gods :-) But please, I'm personally really getting tired of the comments about what I'm allowed to say :-) I don't see how on earth I can really determine or have direct influence on what you choose or choose not to post here. I can only post my own opinion as well. Being tired of reading a particular sentiment is just another sentiment. It cannot and therefore should not be construed as a request to stop posting such a sentiment. Don't worry only a blacklist can stop me :-) If everybody shuts up how should RitLabs know what its users wants. And you selectively snipped all the stuff I said in favour of RitLabs to make it look like hate mail. Can we be reasonable here? No one is telling anyone here to shut up. The shut part was a general remark. Maybe 'feedback' would have been a better choice of words. Accusing me of making your mail out to be hate mail is a bit over the top too. I actually defended RitLabs in my original post. And in later posts including this one. But focusing on the icons makes it sound like hate mail. Besides I think you missed my point about icons and smilies. History has proven that it very often (not always) is a start of bloatware. (not always) This is my rebuttal. Not always.
Re[2]: Licence unhappiness?
Hello Alexander, Saturday, September 4, 2004, 5:33:17 PM, you wrote: Hello Tony, 05-Sep-2004 00:48, you wrote: The 1st thing I do after installing XP is reverting everything to classic w2k look. You could as well discuss wether you like the beginning of the first track of insert-your-favorite-band-here's new CD, and how it evolves into the 2nd track. Wouldn't that be of topic? Warning: Never subscribe to a insert-your-favorite-band-here fan site :) It all depends so much on one's taste, its not worth to discuss differences in the personal liking of a user interface. IMHO, of course. IMHO too :-) Any GUI designer can't possible make it right for everyone. Its just impossible. TB! including the GUI (still) gets high marks from me. It's just that I'm using software for over 20 years and that a new version not always means a better version. Deal with it. :-) I'm trying Sir, I'm trying :-) -- Tony Why do people without a watch look at their wrist when you ask them what time it is? Current version is 3.00.00 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
