Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 10:29:30AM GMT, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > On 2017/01/24 09:06, Raf Czlonka wrote: > > > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything > > > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving > > > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. > > > > Since we've been doing it the other way for 12 years, I think it would > > likely cause confusion for existing users.. > > For Raf, > > http://tinyurl.com/jakb5bb > I was expecting that one. Still, made me chuckle :^)
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 01:13:03PM GMT, Nick Holland wrote: > On 01/24/17 04:06, Raf Czlonka wrote: > ... > > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything > > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving > > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No? > > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything > > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development, > > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only > > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time. > > What I think you are not thinking of is that in addition to being a list > of things that have changed, it is also a list of changes that have to > be done ... often IN PARTICULAR ORDER. > > As it is, you read down until you hit where you are, then follow the > instructions in order. "more difficult" in your argument, but logical. > > As you propose, you read down until you find where you are not, then > change directions and read backwards. That's not intuitive, normal, or > reasonable to expect. Most likely, your plan will have people making > changes in reverse order...which may often work, but sometimes > won't...and won't be the order the developers will be testing. Hi Nick, This is the most reasonable reply I have received thus far :^) Thanks, Raf
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 10:26:21AM GMT, Stuart Henderson wrote: > On 2017/01/24 09:06, Raf Czlonka wrote: > > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything > > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving > > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. > > Since we've been doing it the other way for 12 years, I think it would > likely cause confusion for existing users.. I've read somewhere that "We've always done it this way." is the most dangerous phrase in the language :^) I completely agree with the latter - every major change requires re-education. > > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything > > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development, > > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only > > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time. > > If you're running current, I'd recommend keeping an eye on the > source-changes list, then you'll already know if there's something new > which affects you :-) > I've been doing that for a long time but cannot always keep up with the volume :^) Cheers, Raf
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 09:13:51AM GMT, STeve Andre' wrote: > On 01/24/17 04:08, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything > > > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving > > > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No? > > > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything > > > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development, > > > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only > > > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time. > > > > Yes clearly I'm not considering your valuable time. > > > > > > Raf, think about the physical world. When people add things to a list > like a posting on a bulletin board, it goes at the end. People just > know to look at the end for anything new. So it is online. The effort > to scroll down is pretty small. STeve, I've already given an example where reverse chronology is being used, another being CVS revision history, i.e. [0], so the above isn't always true. Regards, Raf [0] http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/Makefile
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 09:08:07AM GMT, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything > > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving > > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No? > > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything > > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development, > > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only > > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time. > > Yes clearly I'm not considering your valuable time. > There's no need for that.
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
On 01/24/17 04:06, Raf Czlonka wrote: ... > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No? > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development, > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time. What I think you are not thinking of is that in addition to being a list of things that have changed, it is also a list of changes that have to be done ... often IN PARTICULAR ORDER. As it is, you read down until you hit where you are, then follow the instructions in order. "more difficult" in your argument, but logical. As you propose, you read down until you find where you are not, then change directions and read backwards. That's not intuitive, normal, or reasonable to expect. Most likely, your plan will have people making changes in reverse order...which may often work, but sometimes won't...and won't be the order the developers will be testing. Nick.
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
> On 2017/01/24 09:06, Raf Czlonka wrote: > > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything > > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving > > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. > > Since we've been doing it the other way for 12 years, I think it would > likely cause confusion for existing users.. For Raf, http://tinyurl.com/jakb5bb
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
On 2017/01/24 09:06, Raf Czlonka wrote: > Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. Since we've been doing it the other way for 12 years, I think it would likely cause confusion for existing users.. > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development, > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time. If you're running current, I'd recommend keeping an eye on the source-changes list, then you'll already know if there's something new which affects you :-)
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
On 01/24/17 04:08, Theo de Raadt wrote: Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No? Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development, new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time. Yes clearly I'm not considering your valuable time. Raf, think about the physical world. When people add things to a list like a posting on a bulletin board, it goes at the end. People just know to look at the end for anything new. So it is online. The effort to scroll down is pretty small. --STeve Andre'
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
> Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything > new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving > forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No? > Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything > else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development, > new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only > thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time. Yes clearly I'm not considering your valuable time.
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 11:46:52PM GMT, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > As faq/current.html[0] grows, each major change is being added at > > the very bottom, chronologically. There already are several other > > pages where this kind of ordering makes sense, i.e. innovations.html[1]. > > > > Given the "current" (unintentional pun) nature of changes on the > > aforementioned page, it seem like reverse chronological order would > > suit it better, as is the case with, i.e. events.html[2]. > > This page includes remedial actions a current-follower needs, which > are generally cut Sure. > A reader decides "Where was I last time", then would intuitively > move forward. Yes, that's one way to look at it - it is the way I, and everybody else, have been doing. Another way to look at it is, "Let me have a look if there's anything new on faq/current.html - I open the page and, *without* moving forward, can see straight away if something new has been added. No? Then I move on with my life without scrolling down or doing anything else apart from opening the page". Given OpenBSD's rapid development, new entries on faq/current.html appear quite frequently - I'm only thinking of the tiny amount of time saved each time. > The proposal doesn't make sense to me. Duly noted :^) Raf
Re: [WWW] Reverse chronological order for faq/current.html
> As faq/current.html[0] grows, each major change is being added at > the very bottom, chronologically. There already are several other > pages where this kind of ordering makes sense, i.e. innovations.html[1]. > > Given the "current" (unintentional pun) nature of changes on the > aforementioned page, it seem like reverse chronological order would > suit it better, as is the case with, i.e. events.html[2]. This page includes remedial actions a current-follower needs, which are generally cut A reader decides "Where was I last time", then would intuitively move forward. The proposal doesn't make sense to me.
