[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

So it turns out you don't need Enterprise to have 1000 members. You can get 
premium, and then pay the 4c per user additional fee. So that makes the 
yearly cost $440. Not that I'm promoting it, necessarily.

My main point is that most of the prior conversations assumed zero cost 
forum solutions. There wasn't a whole lot of exploration of low-cost 
solutions. 

Discourse seems nice, though we can't really test it's ability to 
dumpster-dive yet. But I'm not sure it's $5/month nicer than GG. At the end 
of the day, it's just a forum. I suspect that after a few months, and it 
doesn't seem so shiny any more, that others will feel the same way.


On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 4:47:08 PM UTC-7 PMario wrote:

> On Sunday, August 22, 2021 at 12:53:40 AM UTC+2 Mark S. wrote:
>
>> No, it's not a pure email. It has a web forum with all the services you 
>> expect -- file attachments, photos, wikis, calendars.
>
>
> ah. ok
>  
>
>> But you're right about the price. It obviously wasn't like that when I 
>> signed up. At the time there was no user-count limit for the basic group. 
>> Hopefully they won't rescind that policy.
>>
>
> Yea, you have probably been an early adopter. That sometimes happens. ... 
> So you shouldn't give up that account ;)
> -mario
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: I Think I Hacked TiddlyWiki

[Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ)]

Super-interesting stuff!  Thanks for the background.

There's a bit of consolation in there, though:  It sounds like the RAA 
attack relies on getting the user to execute JS in the WSH rather than 
within the browser.  TiddlyWiki on Node or running through Bob.exe or in 
TiddlyDesktop *might* be a more vulnerable vector of infection than a 
TiddlyWiki running the latest version of a Chromium-based browser.  I'm not 
sure how those platforms compare to browsers when it comes to sandboxing 
the environment where scripts are executed.

The novel path of attack (sharing a .JS via tiddler with another TiddlyWiki 
user) is certainly worth considering as a potential vulnerability — but, as 
Tony said above, the balance between usability and security is often more 
nuanced than just locking down everything to prevent any possibility of 
infection.

This could be a great opportunity for some security-minded TiddlyWizards to 
come up with a script-vetting plugin to throw up red flags during the 
import of outside content.  Maybe there'd even be a way to leverage malware 
databases via API to keep it up to date on current threats.  That's all way 
above my head, though, and maybe be as great a can of worms as trying to 
lock down TiddlyWiki to protect it from rogue JS.

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Re: [tw5] "I moved to Discourse" - add your name too?

[Joshua Fontany]

Definitely moving over to the Discourse community. See you all there!

Best,
Joshua Fontany
On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 3:42:18 PM UTC-7 Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ) 
wrote:

> I've created a profile on Talk.TiddlyWiki.org and am delighted with the 
> interface there.  I'll try to ask questions and create new threads there 
> rather than here, though I guess I'll be drawn back to Google Groups is 
> that's where the conversation flows.  (For my part, I'm hoping it moves to 
> Talk.TW)
>
> https://talk.tiddlywiki.org/u/secret-hq/
>

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[PMario]

On Sunday, August 22, 2021 at 12:53:40 AM UTC+2 Mark S. wrote:

> No, it's not a pure email. It has a web forum with all the services you 
> expect -- file attachments, photos, wikis, calendars.


ah. ok
 

> But you're right about the price. It obviously wasn't like that when I 
> signed up. At the time there was no user-count limit for the basic group. 
> Hopefully they won't rescind that policy.
>

Yea, you have probably been an early adopter. That sometimes happens. ... 
So you shouldn't give up that account ;)
-mario


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Re: [tw5] Do you already use https://talk.tiddlywiki.org/ ?

[Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ)]

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 5:30:28 AM UTC-4 Jeremy Ruston wrote:

At the moment, there's two way sync with Google Groups, but if people like 
> the new system then we will migrate fully over to it.
>
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't appear to be truly two-way (at 
least at the moment I'm posting).  Google Groups threads and posts get 
mirrored on Talk.TW *(awesome for archiving!)*, but I can't reply or 
contribute to those on Talk.TW — and new threads created on Talk.TW do not 
seem to get mirrored back to Google Groups.

No complaints from me on this.  It seems like a good migratory pattern to 
ease people over to the new platform — but it's definitely a migration, it 
seems.  (One I'm all for, as long as it seems sustainable.)

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ)]

Answering some of my own questions:

Is there a good central thread for discussing the move to Discourse that 
> I've missed out on?  I did a quick search, and it seems to come up in 
> different threads, but I didn't see a pinned topic or thread that serves as 
> a hub for the conversation.


Jeremy did offer this comment 
 on 
the aims/intentions of Talk.TW.org I initially missed:

> The new Discourse forum at https://talk.tiddlywiki.org/ is an experiment
> at this stage. At the moment, there's two way sync with Google Groups, 
> but if people like the new system then we will migrate fully over to it.
 

> > First, someone is paying for Discourse, right? It's not free like GG. 
>
 

> *Is* that the case?  I'd thought Discourse was a free, open-source 
> platform — though someone is surely paying to host TiddlyWiki.org, where 
> it's running.  That domain's been around a long time, and I always 
> suspected it was Jeremy's, but maybe not.  Do we know the identity of our 
> benefactor on that domain?  That may go a long way toward reassuring people 
> of the platform's long-term availability and stability.
>

Boris is Hero of the Beach on this front, and there's a whole thread about 
the costs and his estimates for the future here:
https://talk.tiddlywiki.org/t/paying-for-discourse/


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Re: [tw5] Re: I Think I Hacked TiddlyWiki

[Finn Lancaster]

@Scott,

With a bit of creativity, practically anything is possible! You’re right in
that the JS could not have DIRECT access to the user’s file system, but as
explained in
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2016/06/20/ransomware-thats-100-pure-javascript-no-download-required/,
one could simply use JS to connect to a server to install a malicious exe,
which it could then run.
Essentially, the JS could easily apply a cipher to the file to thus
“encrypt it”, and use the exe to rewrite the file content with this
encrypted text.
The exe could also handle deletion of backups, or pretty much anything else
needed.

On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 7:02 PM Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ) <
goo...@secret-hq.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 9:12:15 AM UTC-4 flanc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> What makes this more dangerous than the iframe is that it has DIRECT
>> ACCESS to your TW instance, so practically anything can be done. For
>> example, I could steal your tiddlywiki instance, encrypt it, and hold it
>> for ransom, as soon as your page loaded.
>>
>
> Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly:  That *particular* attack
> wouldn't yield much fruit, would it?  The attacker would have an encrypted
> version of TiddlyWiki only xe could access, but the original user would
> still have the version xe opened on xir local hard drive or the Web site xe
> loaded the page from in the first place.  All that would be encrypted for
> ransom would be the session-specific instance of that file, not the source
> file (which the browser can't encrypt and save over on the fly).
>
> Or am I misunderstanding?
>
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> 
> .
>

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[tw5] Re: I Think I Hacked TiddlyWiki

[Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ)]

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 9:12:15 AM UTC-4 flanc...@gmail.com wrote:

What makes this more dangerous than the iframe is that it has DIRECT ACCESS 
> to your TW instance, so practically anything can be done. For example, I 
> could steal your tiddlywiki instance, encrypt it, and hold it for ransom, 
> as soon as your page loaded.
>

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly:  That *particular* attack 
wouldn't yield much fruit, would it?  The attacker would have an encrypted 
version of TiddlyWiki only xe could access, but the original user would 
still have the version xe opened on xir local hard drive or the Web site xe 
loaded the page from in the first place.  All that would be encrypted for 
ransom would be the session-specific instance of that file, not the source 
file (which the browser can't encrypt and save over on the fly).

Or am I misunderstanding?

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

No, it's not a pure email. It has a web forum with all the services you 
expect -- file attachments, photos, wikis, calendars.

But you're right about the price. It obviously wasn't like that when I 
signed up. At the time there was no user-count limit for the basic group. 
Hopefully they won't rescind that policy.




On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 2:43:15 PM UTC-7 PMario wrote:

> On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 11:13:18 PM UTC+2 Mark S. wrote:
>
> I have a forum with groups.io. After the initial transfer fee it has been 
>> free. It includes mail services. It works just like you would expect a 
>> forum to work. I can't help but feel that people jumped on Discourse 
>> because it's the shiny software of the day.
>>
>
> That's a pure e-mail list, that can't be compared to Google Groups or any 
> other web based discussion forum. ... The free tier is for 100 members. The 
> 20$ per month tier is for 500 members and the enterprise tier for 1000 
> members goes up to 200$/month + 0.20$ per additional user 
>
> This Group here has more than 1000 users and the goal of the new platform 
> is to increase the number of users. ... So please compare apples with 
> apples!
> The pricing page: https://groups.io/static/pricing
>
> just my thought.
> -mario
>

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Re: [tw5] "I moved to Discourse" - add your name too?

[Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ)]

I've created a profile on Talk.TiddlyWiki.org and am delighted with the 
interface there.  I'll try to ask questions and create new threads there 
rather than here, though I guess I'll be drawn back to Google Groups is 
that's where the conversation flows.  (For my part, I'm hoping it moves to 
Talk.TW)

https://talk.tiddlywiki.org/u/secret-hq/

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[strikke...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 11:43:15 PM UTC+2 PMario wrote:

> This Group here has more than 1000 users and the goal of the new platform 
> is to increase the number of users. ... So please compare apples with 
> apples!
>

Hoping that no user of GG will be lost and a lot of more users will be 
interested in Tiddlywiki due to the change of forum is a hope we can all 
share, but it is hardly an exact number.

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[PMario]

On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 11:13:18 PM UTC+2 Mark S. wrote:

I have a forum with groups.io. After the initial transfer fee it has been 
> free. It includes mail services. It works just like you would expect a 
> forum to work. I can't help but feel that people jumped on Discourse 
> because it's the shiny software of the day.
>

That's a pure e-mail list, that can't be compared to Google Groups or any 
other web based discussion forum. ... The free tier is for 100 members. The 
20$ per month tier is for 500 members and the enterprise tier for 1000 
members goes up to 200$/month + 0.20$ per additional user 

This Group here has more than 1000 users and the goal of the new platform 
is to increase the number of users. ... So please compare apples with 
apples!
The pricing page: https://groups.io/static/pricing

just my thought.
-mario

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ)]

Is there a good central thread for discussing the move to Discourse that 
I've missed out on?  I did a quick search, and it seems to come up in 
different threads, but I didn't see a pinned topic or thread that serves as 
a hub for the conversation.

Mark S. asked a couple of good questions:
 
> First, someone is paying for Discourse, right? It's not free like GG. 
> Is that sustainable, or will we back at GG in 2 or 3 years?

*Is* that the case?  I'd thought Discourse was a free, open-source platform 
— though someone is surely paying to host TiddlyWiki.org, where it's 
running.  That domain's been around a long time, and I always suspected it 
was Jeremy's, but maybe not.  Do we know the identity of our benefactor on 
that domain?  That may go a long way toward reassuring people of the 
platform's long-term availability and stability.

> Second, is the search better on Discourse? Because that was 
> the main concern about GG -- things become lost in the mist of 
> time (the mist of time being more than two weeks ago).

Despite hearing people complain about the search on Google Groups, I've 
never noticed problems with it myself.

Maybe that's just a function of not knowing what search results you *aren't* 
getting 
back.  (For example, it would be a real laugh if there's a thread called 
"Discussing a Move to Discourse" that I completely missed when searched 
just now.)

Not to be too much of a naysayer on Google Groups, I think 
strikke...@gmail.com is right to bring up the concern:

> we do not know if GG exist i 2 or 3 years

Despite its long life, Groups bears a lot of similarity to other marginal 
offerings by Google that have been popular with their users (think Reader, 
Wave, or G+) but proved less than stellar at the data-mining Google relies 
on them for.  I've always found it to be an unstable platform for long-term 
continuity.  One exciting thing about Discourse (from what I've read in the 
last hour) is this notion of being able to archive our Groups-based content 
over there so that the history of this community could be preserved moving 
forward.  There are tons of great resources in this group and the dev group 
I'd hate to see lost to the winds of time.

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Why are you assuming that GG won't be here in 2 or 3 years? 

Are you willing to pay $5 per month just to have a different forum, that 
may not actually be significantly better than what we have now?

I have a forum with groups.io. After the initial transfer fee it has been 
free. It includes mail services. It works just like you would expect a 
forum to work. I can't help but feel that people jumped on Discourse 
because it's the shiny software of the day.

Maybe we should have a pledge drive thread. People can promise to pay $5 a 
month for a year to sustain Discourse. I would guess that you need at least 
25 enlistees  because there's going to be people who lose interest after a 
few months when they realize that a forum is just a forum.

On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 12:04:43 PM UTC-7 strikke...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> Mark, we do not know if GG exist i 2 or 3 years -  we do not even know how 
> many would be left to return to GG or go to somewhere else. If the move is 
> a success - and everybody or most people move and like it. Success. If a 
> lot of people are lost in the moving and too many gradually leave - not so 
> much.
>
> On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 5:47:42 PM UTC+2 Mark S. wrote:
>
>> So mostly it's the meta issues that concern me.
>>
>> First, someone is paying for Discourse, right? It's not free like GG. Is 
>> that sustainable, or will we back at GG in 2 or 3 years?
>>
>> Second, is the search better on Discourse? Because that was the main 
>> concern about GG -- things become lost in the mist of time (the mist of 
>> time being more than two weeks ago).
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 6:25:59 AM UTC-7 TW Tones wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> Personally I have used many kinds of forums and conversational systems 
>>> and the good ones have a number of features that you find are needed and 
>>> help both with communications and adoption. Discourse has many if not all 
>>> these features, and sure they may be implemented differently in different 
>>> solutions, but in the long run all of these are needed. It may take a 
>>> little longer to get used to the way it works, but from my experience it is 
>>> about what we need in the long run not simply what we may want initially.
>>>
>>> With my experience I have found Discourse a walk in the park, with the 
>>> odd little exception.  Why, because almost everything Discourse does or 
>>> permits, is in a wide range of similar solutions. What I am trying to say 
>>> is much of it is industry standard and learning Discourse will be reusable 
>>> skills you can use in other places.  This is not just learning about a 
>>> particular product but learning about the state of the art in collaboration 
>>> systems. 
>>>
>>> Sure we can criticise any system for sure, nothing is perfect, but if 
>>> helps hearing someone experienced in such things such as myself, it is all 
>>> going to be worth it, its moving forward in a big step and it is largely 
>>> based on standard practices. I urge you to push through the barriers to 
>>> change or the new because we will all be rewarded. 
>>>
>>> I would also add, I have tried to get us to move before now and it was 
>>> like herding cats, if we have any momentum at all I think we should move to 
>>> an alternative, especially since Google has let us down big time. Eg No 
>>> code, no mobile, are you kidding Google!
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Tones
>>> On Saturday, 21 August 2021 at 22:49:19 UTC+10 strikke...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I signed up a few days ago and have looked around to get to know it - 
 and hopefully find something I liked about it. In between looking around 
 and reading- I started up a few "comfort" tiddlywikis.

 It looks rather complicated to me. Time will hopefully help.
 A lot of users over quite some time discussing tiddlywiki, and not 
 forum details will make it more interesting. But I realise that right now 
 - 
 it is necessary to get the forum the way it can be - and users need help. 
 - 
 to later be able to tell everyone else how easy it really is.

 Sorry - it might be my age.

 @Mohammad,
 The tutorial is nice and start when signing in - I wonder why so many 
 did not find it.

>>>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Hans Wobbe]

Based on a cursory review of scenario, I think it can be generalized to 
Real Estate applications.  This opinion is based on my discovery that 
Agents frequently share their listings with other Agents ( even ones from 
competing Brokerages ).

It could be even more general if a Seller and several potential Buyers were 
inclined to share some of their property data.  Since my views are mostly 
Canadian, I can say that this has considerable potential in competing with 
CREA ( the Canadian Real Estate Agency that runs virtually all of the 
Canadian MLS = Multiple Listing System )

Best,
Hans

On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 1:28:20 PM UTC-4 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:

> Brewed idea has fermented into a different prototyping project.
>
> *Scenario*:
>
> Say I have two sales reps, each with his/her own TiddlyWiki running on 
> node.js
>
> They each maintain their own customer lists, but I want each sales rep to 
> have view-only privs on the other sales rep's customer list.  So that each 
> Sales rep can be a backup to the other one when a Sales rep in on vacation 
> or whatever.
>
> Each Sales rep should have a directory of his/her own customers, but also 
> have available a global directory of all customers (so merging of the 
> directories.)
>
> And those directories should provide a way to see customer details, 
> regardless of the source (Sales rep's own wiki or other sales rep's wiki.)
>
> And a way to know when something new has happened in the other wiki.
>
> All without having to learn new technical things, other than familiarizing 
> myself with basic TiddlyWiki and node.js stuff.
>
> *The current scope of naughty bits*
>
> Playing around a little, here are some of the things that will be involved:
>
>- WebServer Basic Authentication 
>, WebServer 
>Authorization , 
> WebServer 
>Parameter: credentials 
>
>- Simple ways to write protect tiddlers 
>
>- Using the read-only single tiddler view 
>
>- Symbolic Links 
>- Maybe:  This goofy approach to dynamic HTML/javascript creation in 
>an iFrame 
>
>   - A way to know about "what's new" (re customer info) in other 
>   Sales reps' tiddlywikis
>- Enhanced tiddler saving actions for a customer to update a 
>"customers list" data tiddler
>   - Each sales rep has a "customers list" tiddler, and each sales rep 
>   has a symbolic link to all other sales reps' "customers list" tiddlers; 
> so 
>   a "list of customers" tiddler brings in, formats, sorts, all of these 
> data 
>   items from all of these data tiddlers
>  - *won't be super-perfect because each tiddlywiki needs to be 
>  restarted to get the latest data tiddlers from the other tiddlywikis*
>   
> Something like that.  No fuss, no muss.  Keeping it simple.
> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 3:18:27 PM UTC-3 Charlie Veniot wrote:
>
>> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
>> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>>
>> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 
>> 2 could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
>> the tiddler.)
>>
>> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
>> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
>> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>>
>> Something like that.
>>
>> I'm not convinced it is something I can do, but I'm kind of interested in 
>> trying IF it isn't something that's already been done.
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[strikke...@gmail.com]

Mark, we do not know if GG exist i 2 or 3 years -  we do not even know how 
many would be left to return to GG or go to somewhere else. If the move is 
a success - and everybody or most people move and like it. Success. If a 
lot of people are lost in the moving and too many gradually leave - not so 
much.

On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 5:47:42 PM UTC+2 Mark S. wrote:

> So mostly it's the meta issues that concern me.
>
> First, someone is paying for Discourse, right? It's not free like GG. Is 
> that sustainable, or will we back at GG in 2 or 3 years?
>
> Second, is the search better on Discourse? Because that was the main 
> concern about GG -- things become lost in the mist of time (the mist of 
> time being more than two weeks ago).
>
> Thanks!
>
> On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 6:25:59 AM UTC-7 TW Tones wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Personally I have used many kinds of forums and conversational systems 
>> and the good ones have a number of features that you find are needed and 
>> help both with communications and adoption. Discourse has many if not all 
>> these features, and sure they may be implemented differently in different 
>> solutions, but in the long run all of these are needed. It may take a 
>> little longer to get used to the way it works, but from my experience it is 
>> about what we need in the long run not simply what we may want initially.
>>
>> With my experience I have found Discourse a walk in the park, with the 
>> odd little exception.  Why, because almost everything Discourse does or 
>> permits, is in a wide range of similar solutions. What I am trying to say 
>> is much of it is industry standard and learning Discourse will be reusable 
>> skills you can use in other places.  This is not just learning about a 
>> particular product but learning about the state of the art in collaboration 
>> systems. 
>>
>> Sure we can criticise any system for sure, nothing is perfect, but if 
>> helps hearing someone experienced in such things such as myself, it is all 
>> going to be worth it, its moving forward in a big step and it is largely 
>> based on standard practices. I urge you to push through the barriers to 
>> change or the new because we will all be rewarded. 
>>
>> I would also add, I have tried to get us to move before now and it was 
>> like herding cats, if we have any momentum at all I think we should move to 
>> an alternative, especially since Google has let us down big time. Eg No 
>> code, no mobile, are you kidding Google!
>>
>> Regards
>> Tones
>> On Saturday, 21 August 2021 at 22:49:19 UTC+10 strikke...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I signed up a few days ago and have looked around to get to know it - 
>>> and hopefully find something I liked about it. In between looking around 
>>> and reading- I started up a few "comfort" tiddlywikis.
>>>
>>> It looks rather complicated to me. Time will hopefully help.
>>> A lot of users over quite some time discussing tiddlywiki, and not forum 
>>> details will make it more interesting. But I realise that right now - it is 
>>> necessary to get the forum the way it can be - and users need help. - to 
>>> later be able to tell everyone else how easy it really is.
>>>
>>> Sorry - it might be my age.
>>>
>>> @Mohammad,
>>> The tutorial is nice and start when signing in - I wonder why so many 
>>> did not find it.
>>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Charlie Veniot]

Brewed idea has fermented into a different prototyping project.

*Scenario*:

Say I have two sales reps, each with his/her own TiddlyWiki running on 
node.js

They each maintain their own customer lists, but I want each sales rep to 
have view-only privs on the other sales rep's customer list.  So that each 
Sales rep can be a backup to the other one when a Sales rep in on vacation 
or whatever.

Each Sales rep should have a directory of his/her own customers, but also 
have available a global directory of all customers (so merging of the 
directories.)

And those directories should provide a way to see customer details, 
regardless of the source (Sales rep's own wiki or other sales rep's wiki.)

And a way to know when something new has happened in the other wiki.

All without having to learn new technical things, other than familiarizing 
myself with basic TiddlyWiki and node.js stuff.

*The current scope of naughty bits*

Playing around a little, here are some of the things that will be involved:

   - WebServer Basic Authentication 
   , WebServer 
   Authorization , WebServer 
   Parameter: credentials 
   
   - Simple ways to write protect tiddlers 
   
   - Using the read-only single tiddler view 
   
   - Symbolic Links 
   - Maybe:  This goofy approach to dynamic HTML/javascript creation in an 
   iFrame 
   
  - A way to know about "what's new" (re customer info) in other Sales 
  reps' tiddlywikis
   - Enhanced tiddler saving actions for a customer to update a "customers 
   list" data tiddler
  - Each sales rep has a "customers list" tiddler, and each sales rep 
  has a symbolic link to all other sales reps' "customers list" tiddlers; 
so 
  a "list of customers" tiddler brings in, formats, sorts, all of these 
data 
  items from all of these data tiddlers
 - *won't be super-perfect because each tiddlywiki needs to be 
 restarted to get the latest data tiddlers from the other tiddlywikis*
  
Something like that.  No fuss, no muss.  Keeping it simple.
On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 3:18:27 PM UTC-3 Charlie Veniot wrote:

> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>
> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 2 
> could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
> the tiddler.)
>
> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>
> Something like that.
>
> I'm not convinced it is something I can do, but I'm kind of interested in 
> trying IF it isn't something that's already been done.
>

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[clutterstack]

Mark, I do hope the search will be better -- it's hard to tell right now 
because there's not much on there. I hate to say "it would be hard to make 
it worse than GG search..." ;)

Paying for Discourse feels less sustainable somehow, but I think there's a 
core of contributors who are making a move to build momentum on TW, and 
paying for a tool to help your community communicate, support each other, 
and onboard new users makes a lot of sense through that lens. It's a risk, 
but it's a move.

With GG, I'm not 100% sure Google won't just pull the plug sometime within 
2-3 years. 

On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 11:47:42 AM UTC-4 Mark S. wrote:

> So mostly it's the meta issues that concern me.
>
> First, someone is paying for Discourse, right? It's not free like GG. Is 
> that sustainable, or will we back at GG in 2 or 3 years?
>
> Second, is the search better on Discourse? Because that was the main 
> concern about GG -- things become lost in the mist of time (the mist of 
> time being more than two weeks ago).
>
> Thanks!
>
> On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 6:25:59 AM UTC-7 TW Tones wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Personally I have used many kinds of forums and conversational systems 
>> and the good ones have a number of features that you find are needed and 
>> help both with communications and adoption. Discourse has many if not all 
>> these features, and sure they may be implemented differently in different 
>> solutions, but in the long run all of these are needed. It may take a 
>> little longer to get used to the way it works, but from my experience it is 
>> about what we need in the long run not simply what we may want initially.
>>
>> With my experience I have found Discourse a walk in the park, with the 
>> odd little exception.  Why, because almost everything Discourse does or 
>> permits, is in a wide range of similar solutions. What I am trying to say 
>> is much of it is industry standard and learning Discourse will be reusable 
>> skills you can use in other places.  This is not just learning about a 
>> particular product but learning about the state of the art in collaboration 
>> systems. 
>>
>> Sure we can criticise any system for sure, nothing is perfect, but if 
>> helps hearing someone experienced in such things such as myself, it is all 
>> going to be worth it, its moving forward in a big step and it is largely 
>> based on standard practices. I urge you to push through the barriers to 
>> change or the new because we will all be rewarded. 
>>
>> I would also add, I have tried to get us to move before now and it was 
>> like herding cats, if we have any momentum at all I think we should move to 
>> an alternative, especially since Google has let us down big time. Eg No 
>> code, no mobile, are you kidding Google!
>>
>> Regards
>> Tones
>> On Saturday, 21 August 2021 at 22:49:19 UTC+10 strikke...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I signed up a few days ago and have looked around to get to know it - 
>>> and hopefully find something I liked about it. In between looking around 
>>> and reading- I started up a few "comfort" tiddlywikis.
>>>
>>> It looks rather complicated to me. Time will hopefully help.
>>> A lot of users over quite some time discussing tiddlywiki, and not forum 
>>> details will make it more interesting. But I realise that right now - it is 
>>> necessary to get the forum the way it can be - and users need help. - to 
>>> later be able to tell everyone else how easy it really is.
>>>
>>> Sorry - it might be my age.
>>>
>>> @Mohammad,
>>> The tutorial is nice and start when signing in - I wonder why so many 
>>> did not find it.
>>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

So mostly it's the meta issues that concern me.

First, someone is paying for Discourse, right? It's not free like GG. Is 
that sustainable, or will we back at GG in 2 or 3 years?

Second, is the search better on Discourse? Because that was the main 
concern about GG -- things become lost in the mist of time (the mist of 
time being more than two weeks ago).

Thanks!

On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 6:25:59 AM UTC-7 TW Tones wrote:

> Folks,
>
> Personally I have used many kinds of forums and conversational systems and 
> the good ones have a number of features that you find are needed and help 
> both with communications and adoption. Discourse has many if not all these 
> features, and sure they may be implemented differently in different 
> solutions, but in the long run all of these are needed. It may take a 
> little longer to get used to the way it works, but from my experience it is 
> about what we need in the long run not simply what we may want initially.
>
> With my experience I have found Discourse a walk in the park, with the odd 
> little exception.  Why, because almost everything Discourse does or 
> permits, is in a wide range of similar solutions. What I am trying to say 
> is much of it is industry standard and learning Discourse will be reusable 
> skills you can use in other places.  This is not just learning about a 
> particular product but learning about the state of the art in collaboration 
> systems. 
>
> Sure we can criticise any system for sure, nothing is perfect, but if 
> helps hearing someone experienced in such things such as myself, it is all 
> going to be worth it, its moving forward in a big step and it is largely 
> based on standard practices. I urge you to push through the barriers to 
> change or the new because we will all be rewarded. 
>
> I would also add, I have tried to get us to move before now and it was 
> like herding cats, if we have any momentum at all I think we should move to 
> an alternative, especially since Google has let us down big time. Eg No 
> code, no mobile, are you kidding Google!
>
> Regards
> Tones
> On Saturday, 21 August 2021 at 22:49:19 UTC+10 strikke...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I signed up a few days ago and have looked around to get to know it - and 
>> hopefully find something I liked about it. In between looking around and 
>> reading- I started up a few "comfort" tiddlywikis.
>>
>> It looks rather complicated to me. Time will hopefully help.
>> A lot of users over quite some time discussing tiddlywiki, and not forum 
>> details will make it more interesting. But I realise that right now - it is 
>> necessary to get the forum the way it can be - and users need help. - to 
>> later be able to tell everyone else how easy it really is.
>>
>> Sorry - it might be my age.
>>
>> @Mohammad,
>> The tutorial is nice and start when signing in - I wonder why so many did 
>> not find it.
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[clutterstack]

Josiah, when you say newbies, do you mean TiddlyWiki newbies, or Discourse 
newbies? 

If TiddlyWiki, then perhaps there are ways we can organise categories or 
something to make it easier to know where to post the occasional question?

If Discourse, I'm not sure...having experience reading and posting on 
phpBB-type forums, my first experience with Discourse (which is, I think, 
what fast.ai uses) was a bit disorienting to me and I still can't really 
put my finger on it. Busy? Opaque? However, we have to consider that the 
visual language used by Discourse may be what many younger people are 
already used to -- it may be that for most, Discourse will feel natural and 
Google Groups frustrating and weird.

Best,
Chris
On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 9:25:59 AM UTC-4 TW Tones wrote:

> Folks,
>
> Personally I have used many kinds of forums and conversational systems and 
> the good ones have a number of features that you find are needed and help 
> both with communications and adoption. Discourse has many if not all these 
> features, and sure they may be implemented differently in different 
> solutions, but in the long run all of these are needed. It may take a 
> little longer to get used to the way it works, but from my experience it is 
> about what we need in the long run not simply what we may want initially.
>
> With my experience I have found Discourse a walk in the park, with the odd 
> little exception.  Why, because almost everything Discourse does or 
> permits, is in a wide range of similar solutions. What I am trying to say 
> is much of it is industry standard and learning Discourse will be reusable 
> skills you can use in other places.  This is not just learning about a 
> particular product but learning about the state of the art in collaboration 
> systems. 
>
> Sure we can criticise any system for sure, nothing is perfect, but if 
> helps hearing someone experienced in such things such as myself, it is all 
> going to be worth it, its moving forward in a big step and it is largely 
> based on standard practices. I urge you to push through the barriers to 
> change or the new because we will all be rewarded. 
>
> I would also add, I have tried to get us to move before now and it was 
> like herding cats, if we have any momentum at all I think we should move to 
> an alternative, especially since Google has let us down big time. Eg No 
> code, no mobile, are you kidding Google!
>
> Regards
> Tones
> On Saturday, 21 August 2021 at 22:49:19 UTC+10 strikke...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I signed up a few days ago and have looked around to get to know it - and 
>> hopefully find something I liked about it. In between looking around and 
>> reading- I started up a few "comfort" tiddlywikis.
>>
>> It looks rather complicated to me. Time will hopefully help.
>> A lot of users over quite some time discussing tiddlywiki, and not forum 
>> details will make it more interesting. But I realise that right now - it is 
>> necessary to get the forum the way it can be - and users need help. - to 
>> later be able to tell everyone else how easy it really is.
>>
>> Sorry - it might be my age.
>>
>> @Mohammad,
>> The tutorial is nice and start when signing in - I wonder why so many did 
>> not find it.
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Random html tags appear in my wiki

[TW Tones]

Try using advanced search to find where this content is found in the wiki, 
look at the tiddlers containing this and see if it has tags it should not.

The tiddler may have a tag such as  SystemTag: $:/tags/BelowStory 
, remove 
this to see if its fixed, if not re tag it and keep looking.

I expect a tiddler is broken or corrupt. 

Regards
Tones
On Saturday, 21 August 2021 at 15:02:59 UTC+10 Sandip Deshmukh wrote:

>
> I have a plain vanilla tiddlywiki with a couple of tiddlers.
>
> I copied this on my Android smartphone. And opened it with tiddloid.
>
> All went well till I was only viewing the tiddlers.
>
> But after I edited/ added new tiddlers, some html markup strings started 
> appearing at the very end. They are not part of any tiddler. And they 
> continue to show even after I close all the tiddlers and hide the sidebar.
>
> I copied the wiki back to my desktop and opened it with TiddlyDesktop. The 
> html markup strings continue to appear and behave the same way. I can 
> select them, copy them but can not delete them.
>
> There seems to be no problem with the wiki otherwise ---  I can open 
> tiddlers, edit tiddlers, etc.
>
> Here is what the text looks like:
>
> $tw.browser && !$tw.node) { $tw.passwordPrompt = new 
> $tw.utils.PasswordPrompt(); } // Preload any encrypted tiddlers 
> $tw.boot.decryptEncryptedTiddlers(function() { // Startup 
> $tw.boot.startup({callback: callback}); }); }; /// 
> Autoboot in the browser if($tw.browser && !$tw.boot.suppressBoot) { 
> $tw.boot.boot(); } return $tw; }); if(typeof(exports) !== "undefined") { 
> exports.TiddlyWiki = _boot; } else { _boot(window.$tw); } { 
> $tw.boot.boot(); } return $tw; }); if(typeof(exports) !== "undefined") { 
> exports.TiddlyWiki = _boot; } else { _boot(window.$tw); }
>
> How do I get rid of this annoyance?
>

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[TW Tones]

Folks,

Personally I have used many kinds of forums and conversational systems and 
the good ones have a number of features that you find are needed and help 
both with communications and adoption. Discourse has many if not all these 
features, and sure they may be implemented differently in different 
solutions, but in the long run all of these are needed. It may take a 
little longer to get used to the way it works, but from my experience it is 
about what we need in the long run not simply what we may want initially.

With my experience I have found Discourse a walk in the park, with the odd 
little exception.  Why, because almost everything Discourse does or 
permits, is in a wide range of similar solutions. What I am trying to say 
is much of it is industry standard and learning Discourse will be reusable 
skills you can use in other places.  This is not just learning about a 
particular product but learning about the state of the art in collaboration 
systems. 

Sure we can criticise any system for sure, nothing is perfect, but if helps 
hearing someone experienced in such things such as myself, it is all going 
to be worth it, its moving forward in a big step and it is largely based on 
standard practices. I urge you to push through the barriers to change or 
the new because we will all be rewarded. 

I would also add, I have tried to get us to move before now and it was like 
herding cats, if we have any momentum at all I think we should move to an 
alternative, especially since Google has let us down big time. Eg No code, 
no mobile, are you kidding Google!

Regards
Tones
On Saturday, 21 August 2021 at 22:49:19 UTC+10 strikke...@gmail.com wrote:

> I signed up a few days ago and have looked around to get to know it - and 
> hopefully find something I liked about it. In between looking around and 
> reading- I started up a few "comfort" tiddlywikis.
>
> It looks rather complicated to me. Time will hopefully help.
> A lot of users over quite some time discussing tiddlywiki, and not forum 
> details will make it more interesting. But I realise that right now - it is 
> necessary to get the forum the way it can be - and users need help. - to 
> later be able to tell everyone else how easy it really is.
>
> Sorry - it might be my age.
>
> @Mohammad,
> The tutorial is nice and start when signing in - I wonder why so many did 
> not find it.
>

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[tw5] Re: We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[strikke...@gmail.com]

I signed up a few days ago and have looked around to get to know it - and 
hopefully find something I liked about it. In between looking around and 
reading- I started up a few "comfort" tiddlywikis.

It looks rather complicated to me. Time will hopefully help.
A lot of users over quite some time discussing tiddlywiki, and not forum 
details will make it more interesting. But I realise that right now - it is 
necessary to get the forum the way it can be - and users need help. - to 
later be able to tell everyone else how easy it really is.

Sorry - it might be my age.

@Mohammad,
The tutorial is nice and start when signing in - I wonder why so many did 
not find it.

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Re: [tw5] We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[Mohammad Rahmani]

Hi Josiah,
 There is a very nice demo and bot teach you how to use Discourse (of
course basics)
 https://try.discourse.org/

 You have to sign up! For me it was really helpful!



Best wishes
Mohammad


On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 3:06 PM TiddlyTweeter 
wrote:

> Following other folks enthusiasm I signed up to Discourse.
> BUT it is something of an issue  how it works.
>
> I am a beginner there so I can only express *Opinions*, not a fully
> formed critique yet.
> BUT there ARE *snafus* that need attention BEFORE any mass migration ...
>
> SINCE it is looking increasingly likely we WILL migrate, it is very
> important that regular GG users express not just positive opinions but also
> any concerns they have about it soon.
>
> FWIW, my biggest concern with Discourse is *I am not yet convinced is
> will be user friendly* for newbies or for a user only wanting to post
> occasional questions.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [tw5] "I moved to Discourse" - add your name too?

[J. C. S.]

Of course I do - and my name too!
Well, not at all - the Dots had to be chaged. But the rest looks fine.
Have a nice day!
Johannes

scot schrieb am Freitag, 20. August 2021 um 21:19:54 UTC+2:

> I have also moved, Discourse is looking pretty good to me.
>
> On Friday, 20 August 2021 at 09:41:45 UTC+1 TW Tones wrote:
>
>> I will join the "me too" movement (to discourse of course :)
>>
>> On Friday, 20 August 2021 at 13:24:49 UTC+10 fred@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> moved over also
>>>
>>> On Thursday, 19 August 2021 at 14:40:24 UTC-4 PMario wrote:
>>>
 On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 8:11:12 PM UTC+2 R² wrote:

> Switched too. Discourse is looking pretty good so far and indeed much 
> superior to GG. I did find the base config a bit spammy though, as users 
> are automatically registered as tracking a thread (and therefore receive 
> email alerts) after only 4 minutes with the thread open.


 All those settings can be adjusted in your Preferences page. You can 
 also "mute" a category if you want. So you don't get e-mailed at all. 

 -mario

>>>

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[tw5] We need more discourse about Discourse ... and not just the positives ...

[TiddlyTweeter]

Following other folks enthusiasm I signed up to Discourse. 
BUT it is something of an issue  how it works.

I am a beginner there so I can only express *Opinions*, not a fully formed 
critique yet.
BUT there ARE *snafus* that need attention BEFORE any mass migration ...

SINCE it is looking increasingly likely we WILL migrate, it is very 
important that regular GG users express not just positive opinions but also 
any concerns they have about it soon. 

FWIW, my biggest concern with Discourse is *I am not yet convinced is will 
be user friendly* for newbies or for a user only wanting to post occasional 
questions.

Best wishes
Josiah


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