Re: [tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

> Jeremy: My point about putting oneself in the position of the computer is 
> that it is the defining mental posture of programming. Indeed I would argue 
> that it is impossible to be a programmer without sufficient proficiency in 
> that way of thinking.
>

Jeremy. 

This is just a sidenote on something that really caught my interest as an 
anthropologist ...

* "putting oneself in the position of the computer."*I think you are 
*absolutely 
spot-on correct* (even though the words you use is a complex trope that is 
undefined in its scope--its standing for something important) --that this 
is now possible *and* necessary*. *Its part of *our* life now. What 
fascinates me is no one seems to see how we got here or care :-). The kind 
of abstraction necessary to think like that is novel historically. I'm not 
sure its entirely benign. 

Just riffing
Josiah

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Re: [tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

>
> Jeremy: But to do something like designing a piece of software one needs 
> to adopt a multiplicity of mental postures and switch between them fluidly 
> –– programming is far from the most important of them.
>

That is very interesting. "We", using software, get to understand 
that--that creating it has diverse facets. 

Whilst YOU are definitely good all-round, I'm doubtful most of the rest of 
us are or ever will be, or likely want to be. 

Personally I don't think having to get better in all the facets is in my 
interests; its not feasible, sensible or efficient.  

I'd say that an absolutely CORE issue with using computers is learning *how 
to address what you don't know*.

Much like: *"I'm sure you basically understand film, but until I see a 
screenplay worth filming I won't know if you mastered it."* Its skill in a 
field.

To use an AA quote, which I do think helps: *"I know a wo/man who can." *It 
is a basic attitude that is I think best.

I'm just riffing,
Josiah

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Re: [tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[Jeremy Ruston]

> I differ from Jeremy in that I put myself in the head of the designer, not 
> the computer. Thus I draw insperation from his code that he possibly never 
> thought of, because I see the possibilities. 

Differ? I think my point may not have been clear. I was definitely not saying 
that I exclusively occupy the perspective of the computer at the expense of the 
perspective of the designer.

My point about putting oneself in the position of the computer is that it is 
the defining mental posture of programming. Indeed I would argue that it is 
impossible to be a programmer without sufficient proficiency in that way of 
thinking.

But to do something like designing a piece of software one needs to adopt a 
multiplicity of mental postures and switch between them fluidly –– programming 
is far from the most important of them.

Best wishes

Jeremy

> Arlen
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 06:09 TonyM  wrote:
>> Great Question Mat,
>> 
>> Having read through the reply's so far there are some great comments. Some 
>> thoughts on mine on this that may offer another perspective. I was a hobby 
>> programmer before I left school, then a professional Analyst/Programmer in 
>> my early career, and I have always being a conceptual systems thinker, 
>> programming solutions for my whole career.
>> 
>> To me programming is the encoding of algorithms, instructions on a piece of 
>> paper are good enough for this, but computer programming uses computers to 
>> do so, so yes Tiddlywiki is a platform in which to program or capture 
>> algorithms which we can make interactive and includes storage and 
>> presentation.
>> 
>> Is TiddlyWiki or its Wiki Text a programming language?, I do not think it is 
>> a complete language and since it can incorporate JavaScript, and leverages 
>> HTML and CSS does it need to would be a valid question. This is in part why 
>> I call it a platform. Never the less perhaps there is value in the community 
>> ensuring it is a complete programming language of its own, ideally 
>> leveraging another language.
>> 
>> While it may not be a complete language it has a number of elements that are 
>> "high level language" components. The use of filters and lists allow us to 
>> define a set which is then iterated for us rather than us writing the code 
>> within that. Writing macros and Importing plugins allow use to build or 
>> import higher levels of abstract logic, process and interface control 
>> objects.
>> 
>> TiddlyWiki is a "platform" because it brings together all the essential 
>> features needs to encode algorithms including alternative ways to present 
>> information/data, a highly customisable user interface, the ability to serve 
>> it to a network or the world as well as a basis to build a database, build 
>> sophisticated relationships and hierarchies, interact with other resources 
>> and websites, import and export almost anything, and unlike most other 
>> platforms in this space it can also be self contained, a more than minimal 
>> Quine, or simply a stand alone document.
>> 
>> Whilst they have being around for a long time in the last decade the 
>> Information Technology community has expanded and a new emphasis has being 
>> placed on Systems Thinking, Design thinking and UX (user interface). 
>> TiddlyWiki is both a playground and a platform through which to exercise 
>> both to a high level.
>> 
>> Given the TiddlyWiki platform is so versatile I would describe my self as a 
>> designer, designing solutions, capturing information and algorithms on the 
>> TiddlyWiki platform. Except for people who are unaware of the platform any 
>> one who uses TiddlyWiki is likely to be a designer as well.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards
>> Tony.
>>  
>> 
>>> On Monday, 20 August 2018 21:09:19 UTC+10, Mat wrote:
>>> What "is" hacking in TW? Is it coding? Is the particular WikiText used in 
>>> TW a high level programming language? Or is it just markup?
>>> 
>>> ...semi related...
>>> 
>>> IRL, I compare TW to building with lego. I master TW pretty well so I say I 
>>> can build "anything" with TW analogously to how I can build "anything" with 
>>> lego. So is that actually constructing things? Maybe it should be called 
>>> "prototyping" even if it's not prototypes?
>>> 
>>> <:-)
>> 
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Re: [tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[Arlen Beiler]

You all "hack" inside TiddlyWiki using wikitext to get it to do what you
want it to do. I "hack" the TiddlyWiki platform itself using JavaScript to
get it to do what I want. :)

I'm actually terrible at wikitext. I'm always looking things up, and I've
only ever written one complex macro and that was based on another complex
macro that was similar So JavaScript isn't more complex, it's just
different.

You use the axe that I forged.

Ok, Jeremy deserves that one, not me :D

Hacking in the technical sense of breaking through security restrictions in
an unauthorized manner is not related to tiddlywiki.

Hacking in the sense of hacking stuff together is what TiddlyWiki seems
designed for. "Oh, you want to do that? Should be possible."

I differ from Jeremy in that I put myself in the head of the designer, not
the computer. Thus I draw insperation from his code that he possibly never
thought of, because I see the possibilities.

I don't ask how we got here. I ask who put us here.

The result is TiddlyServer and TW Cloud Connectors.

That's how I do it. Am I the only one?

Arlen

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 06:09 TonyM  wrote:

> Great Question Mat,
>
> Having read through the reply's so far there are some great comments. Some
> thoughts on mine on this that may offer another perspective. I was a hobby
> programmer before I left school, then a professional Analyst/Programmer in
> my early career, and I have always being a conceptual systems thinker,
> programming solutions for my whole career.
>
> To me programming is the encoding of algorithms, instructions on a piece
> of paper are good enough for this, but computer programming uses computers
> to do so, so yes Tiddlywiki is a platform in which to program or capture
> algorithms which we can make interactive and includes storage and
> presentation.
>
> Is TiddlyWiki or its Wiki Text a programming language?, I do not think it
> is a complete language and since it can incorporate JavaScript, and
> leverages HTML and CSS does it need to would be a valid question. This is
> in part why I call it a platform. Never the less perhaps there is value in
> the community ensuring it is a complete programming language of its own,
> ideally leveraging another language.
>
> While it may not be a complete language it has a number of elements that
> are "high level language" components. The use of filters and lists allow us
> to define a set which is then iterated for us rather than us writing the
> code within that. Writing macros and Importing plugins allow use to build
> or import higher levels of abstract logic, process and interface control
> objects.
>
> TiddlyWiki is a "platform" because it brings together all the essential
> features needs to encode algorithms including alternative ways to present
> information/data, a highly customisable user interface, the ability to
> serve it to a network or the world as well as a basis to build a database,
> build sophisticated relationships and hierarchies, interact with other
> resources and websites, import and export almost anything, and unlike most
> other platforms in this space it can also be self contained, a more than
> minimal Quine, or simply a stand alone document.
>
> Whilst they have being around for a long time in the last decade the
> Information Technology community has expanded and a new emphasis has being
> placed on Systems Thinking, Design thinking and UX (user interface).
> TiddlyWiki is both a playground and a platform through which to exercise
> both to a high level.
>
> Given the TiddlyWiki platform is so versatile I would describe my self as
> a designer, designing solutions, capturing information and algorithms on
> the TiddlyWiki platform. Except for people who are unaware of the platform
> any one who uses TiddlyWiki is likely to be a designer as well.
>
>
> Regards
> Tony.
>
>
> On Monday, 20 August 2018 21:09:19 UTC+10, Mat wrote:
>>
>> What "is" hacking in TW? Is it coding? Is the particular WikiText used in
>> TW a high level programming language? Or is it just markup?
>>
>> ...semi related...
>>
>> IRL, I compare TW to building with lego. I master TW pretty well so I say
>> I can build "anything" with TW analogously to how I can build "anything"
>> with lego. So is that actually constructing things? Maybe it should be
>> called "prototyping" even if it's not prototypes?
>>
>> <:-)
>>
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> 

[tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[TonyM]

Great Question Mat,

Having read through the reply's so far there are some great comments. Some 
thoughts on mine on this that may offer another perspective. I was a hobby 
programmer before I left school, then a professional Analyst/Programmer in 
my early career, and I have always being a conceptual systems thinker, 
programming solutions for my whole career.

To me programming is the encoding of algorithms, instructions on a piece of 
paper are good enough for this, but computer programming uses computers to 
do so, so yes Tiddlywiki is a platform in which to program or capture 
algorithms which we can make interactive and includes storage and 
presentation.

Is TiddlyWiki or its Wiki Text a programming language?, I do not think it 
is a complete language and since it can incorporate JavaScript, and 
leverages HTML and CSS does it need to would be a valid question. This is 
in part why I call it a platform. Never the less perhaps there is value in 
the community ensuring it is a complete programming language of its own, 
ideally leveraging another language.

While it may not be a complete language it has a number of elements that 
are "high level language" components. The use of filters and lists allow us 
to define a set which is then iterated for us rather than us writing the 
code within that. Writing macros and Importing plugins allow use to build 
or import higher levels of abstract logic, process and interface control 
objects.

TiddlyWiki is a "platform" because it brings together all the essential 
features needs to encode algorithms including alternative ways to present 
information/data, a highly customisable user interface, the ability to 
serve it to a network or the world as well as a basis to build a database, 
build sophisticated relationships and hierarchies, interact with other 
resources and websites, import and export almost anything, and unlike most 
other platforms in this space it can also be self contained, a more than 
minimal Quine, or simply a stand alone document.

Whilst they have being around for a long time in the last decade the 
Information Technology community has expanded and a new emphasis has being 
placed on Systems Thinking, Design thinking and UX (user interface). 
TiddlyWiki is both a playground and a platform through which to exercise 
both to a high level.

Given the TiddlyWiki platform is so versatile I would describe my self as a 
designer, designing solutions, capturing information and algorithms on the 
TiddlyWiki platform. Except for people who are unaware of the platform any 
one who uses TiddlyWiki is likely to be a designer as well.


Regards
Tony.
 

On Monday, 20 August 2018 21:09:19 UTC+10, Mat wrote:
>
> What "is" hacking in TW? Is it coding? Is the particular WikiText used in 
> TW a high level programming language? Or is it just markup?
>
> ...semi related...
>
> IRL, I compare TW to building with lego. I master TW pretty well so I say 
> I can build "anything" with TW analogously to how I can build "anything" 
> with lego. So is that actually constructing things? Maybe it should be 
> called "prototyping" even if it's not prototypes?
>
> <:-)
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

>
> h0p3 wrote: I can't point to another tool which has allowed me to be so 
> quantitative about the qualitative. 
>

And vice-versa.

Its pretty damn good all round on the user front. Once you know a bit.

Josiah

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Re: [tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[h0p3's Wiki]

Conceptual analysis is hard here. You have to take up significant
commitments in a number of philosophical domains to provide any kind of
satisfactory answer.

For some, using your mouse is programming your computer (as ridiculous as
that may initially sound). You might need to define what you mean by the
word "programming" before you'll get an answer you're looking for.

If my gut check means anything in this context, Tiddlywiki is obviously
programming. I can't point to another tool which has allowed me to be so
quantitative about the qualitative.





On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 12:06 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Coding disguised as HTML.
>
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> .
>
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[tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Coding disguised as HTML.

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[tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[Mat]

Jed Carty wrote:
>
> If using Ook! gets to be considered coding than there isn't any reason 
> that what we do with tiddlywiki isn't.
>

If marketing TW, we should probably not use this as an argument ;-)

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[Jed Carty]

I would say it is certainly coding. TiddlyWiki widgets may not be Turing 
complete, but even without external javascript I was able to make a simple 
interactive fiction engine using it. And there are domain-specific 
languages that don't need to be Turing complete. I think it would be hard 
to construct a consistent definition of a programming language or coding 
that wouldn't include tiddlywiki.

If using Ook! gets to be considered coding than there isn't any reason that 
what we do with tiddlywiki isn't.

A link in case you are wondering what Ook is: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Ook!

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[tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[Mat]

PMario wrote:
>
> What "is" hacking in TW?
>>
>
> Creating stuff  without much documentation ;)
>

LOL!


<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[Mohammad]

Mat,
Sometimes I compare TW with TEX.

Wikipedia:  TeX was designed with two main goals in mind: to allow anybody 
to produce high-quality books using minimal effort, and to provide a system 
that would give exactly the same results on all computers, at any point in 
time.

While with TW we cannot produce books but we can do produce smaller parts 
in good quality and everybody else on other computer can get the same 
results!

TW is king of scripting language to produce web texts and elements.

/Mohammad



On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 3:39:19 PM UTC+4:30, Mat wrote:
>
> What "is" hacking in TW? Is it coding? Is the particular WikiText used in 
> TW a high level programming language? Or is it just markup?
>
> ...semi related...
>
> IRL, I compare TW to building with lego. I master TW pretty well so I say 
> I can build "anything" with TW analogously to how I can build "anything" 
> with lego. So is that actually constructing things? Maybe it should be 
> called "prototyping" even if it's not prototypes?
>
> <:-)
>

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[tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat, on LEGO.

I think its a good analogy. Especially for ready-bits like plugins (already 
lego-like) that just plug-n-work. The plugin architecture of TW seems very 
robust. 

The LEGO analogy works quite well also for dealing with the "fragment 
model"--making wholes from bits. Each "brick" is non-definitive but combos 
of bricks eventually form original wholes.

Josiah

Mat wrote:
>
> ... compare TW to building with lego. I master TW pretty well so I say I 
> can build "anything" with TW analogously to how I can build "anything" with 
> lego. So is that actually constructing things? 
>

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[tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat, coming back to zero. IS TW programming?

<$select tiddler="$:/temp/tag1">
  <$list filter="[prefix[$:/tags]sort[]]">
  >><>
   


<$select tiddler="$:/temp/tag3">
  <$list filter="[tag[$:/tags/ViewTemplate]sort[]]">
  >><>
   


IF that is not programming I don't know what is.

Josiah

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[tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[PMario]

-- missing link added to first post :)
-m

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[tw5] Re: [philosophy] Is TW programming?

[PMario]

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:09:19 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:
>
> What "is" hacking in TW?
>

Creating stuff  without much documentation ;)
 

> Is it coding?
>

Kind of!
 

> Is the particular WikiText used in TW a high level programming language?
>

Yes.

We have some basic wiki-text elements like bold, italic, headings, ... 
that's definitely "plain text" writing (with a twist).

...but as soon as transclusion and list-widgets come into play, it starts 
to go into "programming" with a DSL domain specific language. [1]
Basically, if you start to use widgets <$... it's DSL territory. 

 

> Or is it just markup?
>

see above.
 

> IRL, I compare TW to building with lego. I master TW pretty well so I say 
> I can build "anything" with TW analogously to how I can build "anything" 
> with lego. So is that actually constructing things?
>

Yes. Constructing for your specific domain, with the tools provided by the 
application. 

It's a creative process, where you use the basic tools, to create new and 
unique content. Including the possibility to modify the original 
application. 
 

> Maybe it should be called "prototyping" even if it's not prototypes?
>

TW wiki-text widgets can definitely be used for prototyping "proof of 
concepts". But that's only 1 possible usecase, so imo construction is the 
better term here. 

have fun!
mario

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